The Jordan Harbinger Show

(Apple's Best of 2018) In-depth conversations with people at the top of their game. Jordan Harbinger unpacks guests' wisdom into practical nuggets you can use to impact your work, life, and relationships. Learn from leaders (Ray Dalio, Simon Sinek, Mark Cuban), entertainers (Moby, Tip "T.I." Harris, Dennis Quaid), scientists (Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye), athletes (Kobe Bryant, Dennis Rodman, Tony Hawk) and an eclectic array of fascinating minds, from art forgers and arms traffickers to spies and psychologists.

134: How to Create Meaningful Conversations from Scratch | Feedback Friday

134: How to Create Meaningful Conversations from Scratch | Feedback Friday

Fri, 14 Dec 2018 01:00

Jordan Harbinger and Jason DeFillippo banter and take your comments and questions for Feedback Friday right here every week!

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Welcome to feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger, and I'm here with producer Jason Defillippo here on the Jordan Harbinger Show. We love having conversations with our fascinating guests, and this week we had Andy Molinsky talking about intercultural communication. This was really interesting. Some cultures are more direct than others. Other cultures eye contact is less polite. Other other cultures, you have to make it or it's not polite. A lot of little nuances, and there was a lot in that episode about intercultural cross cultural communication. We also aired a crossover. Episode where I was interviewed on another show by my friend Tom Bilyeu. He runs impact theory. This was a popular episode of Impact theory, and a lot of people said that this showed a side of me that they hadn't heard before. So that episode was a crossover episode. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you missed it, I would love if you'd go back and have a listen. I think that the crossover episode is really interesting. Of course, I'm biased, and Andy Molinsky was really fascinating. If you have any interest in speaking or communicating with other cultures, of course, our primary mission. Is to pass along our guests experience as well as our experiences and insights along to you. In other words, the real purpose of the show is to have conversations directly with you. And that's what we're gonna do today here on feedback Friday. You can reach us at Friday at love if you keep the emails concise, if possible. Does increase the chance that we can get your question answered on the air. Jason, what's new this week? Oh, I know what's new? No big deal, but we made it to Apple's best of 2018 list. That's something that happened this week. Yeah. Yeah, that was a nice thing to wake up to, definitely. 12 years. Nothing from apple. Not not that we didn't appreciate the fact that they created the entire podcasting platform and the reason we have careers right now. What I mean is no recognition at all. So waking up one day to have a bunch of texts and emails and social media support for something I had no idea happened was pretty awesome. This was a complete surprise. Which is like what made it even better somehow. It was. It was an early Christmas present under our under our communal tree, for sure. And so of course you don't make that list because you sat around and tinkered in your garage by yourself. This is something that Jason, you and the team really created with everyone else working together, busting our butts this year. And of course, everyone who listens to the show played an integral part because we got on the list of most downloaded new shows. So that's you. So if you're downloading this and you're listening and you are a fan of this show. You helped us make it to Apple's best of 2018 list. So pat yourself on the back because I just wanna hug all of you right now. Because that was the coolest feeling to see that everyone had our back during the toughest year of my career by far. And everyone who had our back downloaded the new show, helped spread the word, helped us get on this list. So that is just really damn cool and made me really happy. And we couldn't have done it without the support of our good friends over at podcast One. That's right. Good thinking, Jason. Make sure that the boss. Man is happy. I like your style. Can't leave him out. Yeah, I like your style. Leave him out. Jason. What's the first thing out of the mail bag? Hi, Jordan. Jason and team. I just got a new job a couple months ago and it's going great, but two days in a row, I got the well meaning. Comment. You're so quiet. Just sitting at your desk with an expectant smile. It's not the first time and not the first job this has happened at. I've been the quiet one forever. The thing is, I've been actively working on it for years now. I'm still pretty introverted, so I'll sometimes still play the good listener when it's been a long day. And we head out for a night with friends. But overall I'm a lot more talkative than I was. And here at this job I've made every effort to encourage non work related conversations around the common spaces of the office and in the short downtimes during our many meetings. But when I'm at my desk, yeah I'm quiet and working. Plus just for more context I smile quite a bit. I'd say people would find me friendly and confident. The very extroverted CFO even said I had great energy and was a breath of fresh air when I interviewed for the job. What am I missing? Am I supposed to be roaming around and? Making small talk at people's office doors that sounds like I'm wasting paid work time in a bit intrusive, but maybe I'm wrong. It's also rare, as far as I can tell, for people to catch lunch together, so I'm not an outlier there either. And still, I'm called quiet. How's this happening again? I realize you probably don't have enough data to help me directly, but any discussion around fitting into a new office or experience with a quiet coworker might be helpful. Thank you to all of you who worked so hard on this show. I look forward to hearing from you. Best check chatty Cathy's quiet cousin. So you may be relatively quiet, but this probably isn't what they're talking about. I think your coworkers are looking for reassurance that you want to socialize with them. This is probably some evolutionary psychology going on. Social bonds are really key at work. You have to be safe for other people to be around. You have to be trustworthy. And when people don't talk to you enough, or they don't know you well enough, you kind of fall into this. Should we be, should we be around this person, talking about the crappy assignment that we got? Should we be complaining and venting around this person? Are they on our team? Where they they on the other side. So always examine why people might be saying what they're saying. And if the initial rationale that pops into your head that seems really surface doesn't make any sense, then dig a little deeper. I use this a lot and back when I was dating as well. And I, of course I do it in my marriage. I do it with people all the time. So for example, somebody might say, oh, it's getting late now. Do they mean they're tired? Do they mean that it's actually getting late? Do they mean that they want to change the subject and the conversation? Do they mean? That, I mean, there's a million other reasons. In fact, when it was dating, it was really complex, of course, because you have people sort of, I don't know, I feel like dating is almost like doing magic tricks sometimes. There's all this misdirection going on, and people are trying to get you to look left when they're doing something on the right, and so you really have to read between the lines. Often people are not aware of what they mean precisely when they say something like, Oh well, you're quiet. It's really important to examine their motivations because this isn't some conscious process to get you to do or say something. Completely subconscious, I would imagine, and completely unconscious. So you really have to look at why they might be doing this in this particular situation. I would make an extra effort to talk to those specific people after work or during work if you can find an excuse to discuss something work related that then touches slightly on the personal. And I know you also said it's rare for people to catch lunch together, but maybe you can organize something in a group or in small groups and you could literally e-mail people. Or you could even better actually talk to them and get groups of three to four. People to go to lunch or to go to coffee a couple days next week, and you can tell them that since you're new, you'd like to make an effort to get to know everyone a bit better. So this seems like a good way to do it. You can just call it out that way. They're not like what's going on here, and you might be surprised at how quickly people stop calling you quiet once you take the lead here socially. And they get to know you a little better and then they feel a little bit more safe and open around you. Best of luck on the new job. All right, Next up, dear Jordan, Jason and Jen. I'm a single female, about to be 40, and I don't have many friends. I'm an industrial designer by day and work on my side projects at night to create a better life for myself. I have a small group that I've been friends with for a long time, but have distanced myself from them since they're not interested in the things I am growth mindset, entrepreneurship, and just doing better for myself and not being complacent. I recently joined this Facebook group and we get up at 5:00 AM every morning. Sounds like somebody else I know Mr Jocko to work on our side hustles before work. I first thought, wow, this is it. I found my people, but now I'm realizing it's not. For me, the sisterhood is great null, but I'm just not down for the expensive quote UN quote events and masterminds and fake motivational crap. I am for the most part, a straight shooter and a get to the point kind of person. I don't complain much and I'm half introvert and half extrovert, but I'm wondering if it's me that's the problem and I need to open up to people and join in on the sisterhood which feels so unnatural. Or have I just not found a group of like minded people I mesh with? Well, I'm also looking to create a network of people as I hear you talk about that all the time, not just friends. I used to work in the restaurant industry as a manager, so reaching out to former coworkers makes me uncomfortable and when I'm looking to network they want to talk about my appearance. Et cetera. Thank you. And I look forward to your response. Hustler in search of a tribe. This is a tough one because you're right, you're in the camp that wants to do a side hustle and find camaraderie. But of course, that entire space is rife with these BS vloggers who obsessively blog or write or do videos about how real they are while being like the fakest people on the Internet. And those groups, the answer to every single question or every problem you have in your business is hustle more, and any shortcoming is plastered. They were with platitudes like you are enough and you're special because you're the best you in the world. None of that is going to get you closer to your very real goal of a better life and a more fulfilling professional career. So take a minute to recognize you're doing some things right. You're getting up early to go to work instead of making a time excuse for your side business, you're trying to find a group of like minded people who want to move forward in a very real way. That's great. These groups exist I'm sure, but they are very few and far between with most groups actually consumed with the fluff. That you mentioned before all the fake motivational stuff, and the good news is you don't really need a group to get this done. Yes, it's nice to have people to share things with and bounce ideas off of, but in the end you don't need to pay for this, and you can often find it at coworking spaces in your city. Coworking spaces aren't free, of course, but they usually have a more developed entrepreneur and startup community because people have to invest in the space itself in order to use it. It's like a membership to a gym, so you'll find people there who are funded who are working regularly on something. You can also use something like focus mate. This is a website that near Ayala former show guest told us about. What this is, is. It's like if you remember Chatroulette, Jason, remember, it's like you just have a random chat on that. So focus made is a work partner. I don't know if it's random or how random it is, but you can get matched up randomly with somebody else who's writing a book or doing some kind of work, and you can select preferences for do you want to chat here and there, or do you want to not chat at all? You can kind of deal with that, and so you don't have people just chatting with you and procrastinating. It keeps you accountable. And what's funny is a lot of people have actually met on this site, not not a significant other, but they'll they'll meet somebody that they really clicked with and work with. One guy wrote in and said he'd been working with someone in France and they were on the same time schedule. So they worked together regularly. And then one day he was like, so how did you find out about this website anyway? And she goes, oh, the Jordan Harbinger show. So this person in another country was working with another person in another country, had no idea how either of them got into this. And it turns out it was this show. So. That was kind of funny to hear about, but this has been really useful for a lot of people who need accountability and want to work with somebody else but don't need to be in some sort of, you know, Google Hangout with 87 other people wasting time or talking about how they're going to do something. I would also continue to reach out to people using the tactics in our level one course, which is at one, you can select who you want around you by the types of conversations that you're having. Also, it's important to note that not all your friends have to have the same goals. I've got friends that are working in corporate jobs, they're loving it. Engineers, salesman, younger folks, older folks. Not everyone wants a hustle and is really into personal development, and that's that's OK. I I totally get what phase are. You want to be surrounded by amazing hashtag growth people only. But after a while you can have some regular friends too. Also, let yourself off the hook a bit in terms of having friends that all want the same thing. Sometimes it's OK to have friends who you just like to be around for meals or activity. Partners, or even just people who watch Netflix and relax. I think as entrepreneurs especially, a lot of us get obsessed with only hanging around those who are equally obsessed. And it can actually create a sense of of FOMO, fear of missing out that really is not healthy for us. And then it it would be helpful for you to take a step back and realize that maybe you don't want that. Maybe you want a simple life. I know that realization came to me after a long time as well, and it sounds like you're on the right track with this. Take what you need from these groups until you find one or more that you really like. And don't be in a big rush to get there. You can do this yourself. We built this business and show ourselves back in the day when these groups didn't even exist because digital entrepreneurship wasn't trendy back then, and you can do the same. You really don't need to have a a tribe. By forcing yourself into one, you can find your tribe and it can be a small one at that, as long as it helps you further towards your goals. This is feedback Friday and we'll be right back after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. To learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit And if you'd be so kind, please drop us a nice rating and review an iTunes or your podcast player of Choice. And if you're an overcast, please hit the little star button next to our show and that helps us out. We really appreciate it and if you want some tips on how to do that, just head on over to now. Let's hear some more of your questions here on feedback Friday. All right, Next up, hi. I have a bunch of surface level friends, but despite making this the focus of my personal growth this year, I still don't have any real close friendships. I'm sensing a theme. Throughout high school I primarily had male friends. I'm a 25 year old female by the way, but I had my oldest child at 19 and got married at 20, and those friendships have petered out naturally. I'm a very driven person and graduated with my bachelor's degree at 20 and master's degree a couple of years later. During this time I had several part time and full time jobs and internships. And I had my second child. Wow. She's really a go getter. I if we ever think we don't have time or energy to do something, we need to listen to this gal. She had a kid, got married, got two advanced degrees, worked multiple jobs, and then had another kid. I feel like that would kill me. I'm pretty sure it would be both. Yeah. Needless to say, this was all very intense. Yeah, definitely yeah. And I didn't really focus on building or maintaining friendships during that time of my life. Now I'm a stay at home mom, and finding motherhood lonely and isolating any acquaintances from my career or educational background are out of state. I've tried to make Mommy friends, but I'm struggling to take it beyond this surface level of friendship. A major issue I'm having is people saying we should hang out and then never following up. I tried to be more specific. What about next Friday? But even if these people confirm plans, something comes up last minute. Where it always falls through. I would take this personally as a sign they didn't like me. But then the same people will reach out again via text a few weeks later. I miss you. We should hang out, etcetera. And the cycle begins again. It it's where this sounds like she lives in LA. Yeah, I see what it's like here. I would say that that sounds very familiar. It is really common. This isn't anything personal. I think what it is is these people just aren't as together as you are. You're using your own measuring stick with other people here. You you're someone who's had all these jobs. You've had these kids, you did university. You had to be incredibly organized. You had to be incredibly diligent. Had to muster energy levels. These people are busy in their own mind and aren't able to get it together. They might even be quote UN quote actually busy. But look, this is about them and not about you. I've talked to other people on the Internet and even to my sister and they've all had similar experiences. So I'm wondering if it's an issue with my generation. I don't have the same problem with my friends that I use the term loosely here who are in their 30s or 40s, but I struggle to relate to that age group because of the age gap. They're more of a mentor role than a best friend role, not to mention many people in that age. Bracket our friends with my mom. We were both young moms and I live in a small town. Or they remember my teenage years. And let's just say those weren't very pretty years. I feel like I've always been a bit of an outcast. Too old to fit in with the teen moms, too young to fit in with the regular moms. And then every time I think I found a friend, the whole we should hang out things starts. Should I just accept that a best friend is not in the cards for me at this point? Signed, friendless in Mommy land? All right, well, as above, this is about other people's issues. And you are in a weird spot. With your age and your unique circumstances, you may just be looking in the wrong places. Maybe you don't need a best friend who's also a mom. Sure, it could help, potentially. But maybe you need friends your own age or slightly older who you can hang out with and relax. It sounds like you might be looking for that one person who's basically a mirror image of yourself or fills the role of best friend that you had as a child. And you may, since you were doing so many other amazing things during this time, you may have kind of missed the changeover. Whereas Jason, do you feel like you're adult friends are just, I mean we're it's a different type of friendship than you had when you were kids, right? Ohh, absolutely, completely different. So I think a lot of us, if we go through this because what happened with friends in Maryland is while she was going through that whole high school to college, college to professional life, friendship shift and everybody sort of adapted or failed to adapt like many people do, she was too busy. Really, really, legitimately too busy. And so maybe she doesn't see the. What the role of best friend might look like at this point and and is craving for some sort of intimacy instead of the different types of relationships that fill it. But this is very, very common. We like to think of having one to two friends who are like the ones we had as a kid, a fit for everything, and in every situation you do everything together. I'd encourage you to make other relationships with activity, partners in the mommy groups, etcetera. And I'd find something one or two nights a week where you can go take a class either with your kids or alone and learn a new skill and you'll meet. Like minded people. And even if you don't meet anyone, you'll have learned a new skill, so it won't be a waste of your time. And if you take one or two classes each quarter, you'll start meeting and cultivating a healthier social circle, which you can then leverage to find a regular social circle of friends. And this may be a numbers game at first, where you're meeting a lot of people, many who are just not a fit for anything more than casual acquaintance. And that's fine. You've spent your whole life working really hard, so it might be that you see this friendship process as another obstacle to be conquered. Like a job or degree. Like check again, I can't check this. Get best friend Checkbox off my To Do List. You know, I I see you as that type of person potentially, but this is a process that needs to play itself out naturally while you guide it and sort of gently nudge it along. So stop looking at getting super close friends as a task that you need to check off and get done and start exploring what you want and the type of people that you want in your life through these common interests. And I think that will be a more reliable. Process to get the result that you want, which is close relationships with other people. All right, Next up. Hello, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I'm currently wrapping up my bachelor's degree and I'm set to graduate next September. I've been in school on and off over the past decade, so I'm glad to finally see the finish line. Insight. This is my scenario. While my bachelor's program doesn't require an internship, I still want to gain some experience in what I want to work in, which is social media and PR with a full time work schedule, a supportive girlfriend, and research papers taking up most of my time. After work, I'm concerned about how and where I can find opportunities to grow my skill set. I've looked into certifications that could pad my resume, but would it give me more of an advantage if I had some experience to go along with them? Time is valuable to me and I want to make sure that I use my time to the fullest extent when it comes to working towards this career change. Thanks for all you do. Congrats on the new show and happy holidays. Signed, certifiably confused. Experience is always better than certifications. Certs are great if you're already working in the field. Because it shows employers that you know what you're doing because you've got the training to do it. That said, if you've got zero experience, that's a huge red flag, regardless of all the certificates you've got saying that you know how to use certain software, etcetera. JSON you did you ever get into that software world where you need like JavaScript certifications or whatever? I tell you what, I've seen this so many times. I have 0 certifications, but I was a senior programmer and when people would come in with, you know, no experience straight out of school and they showed me their list of certifications. I'm like, you should have spent more time just doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing and not just like, you know, learning how to answer questions on a test. Because that's what most certifications are, at least in the software world. I'm sure it's probably the same in social media as well. So, yeah, I say certifications, yeah. Once you have a job and if you need it to get a raise, and that's part of, like, the company culture, you know, it depends on how many search you need on the wall or if you're in cybersecurity where those things really do make a difference. So, you know certain systems, but experience is going to be the best, best thing that you can do to get a job once you're done with your school. That makes sense. Yeah. I know most college programs don't require internships, or at least a lot don't. But bear in mind one reason that college degrees might not require internships. Is because they can't really charge you as a student for working someplace else, and they would likely have to assign you credit for doing it. Even though you'd have to pay them for a credit taken for the class. So I'm sure some universities are different. But when you look at the economic incentives that they have, most of them are of course trying to make and generate revenue and they're not necessarily trying to help you get a job during school. Or if they are, there's a lot of career services offices that are great, but they're probably overwhelmed and under resourced as well. So forget what's required and do what's going to look best for future employers when you apply for a job after school. So in other words, just because they don't require an internship. Doesn't mean like, uh, I guess I don't need one of those. Look for what employers are gonna want when you apply for that job. Even working remotely is better than nothing at all. And I made this mistake when I got out of undergrad at the University of Michigan. I could barely get a job at Best Buy selling frequenc's after getting a four year degree from the University of Michigan. And this was in 2004. The economy was actually pretty decent back then. And. I couldn't. I mean, I was looking at retail. I had no idea how to even apply for jobs back then, and let alone was I even remotely qualified to do anything complex at all. So make sure you get the experience. The certifications can come later if you even need them, but certainly experience over paper. We'll be right back with more feedback Friday, right after this. Thanks for listening and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers is what keeps us on the air. And to learn more and get links to all the great discounts you just heard, visit now back to the show for the conclusion of feedback Friday. All right, Next up, good evening, Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I've been a huge fan of all your work since 2013, even have all of my close friends listening to your show regularly. I know this isn't necessarily your bag anymore, but any advice would be helpful. To make a Long story short, I finally feel happy with my life. Nice apartment, amazing job. I'm 28 and making six figures. Great friends and a working network thanks to your level one course, but I can't seem to find a woman that meets my drive and personality. I just moved to Troy, MI about a year ago working at automotive. As a sales engineer, I was born and raised in Michigan as well. I've been getting out there and being the best version of me taking classes, online dating, etc. I just can't break out of this funk with romance. Been on plenty of dates, but I typically get turned off pretty quickly when they have no interests but Netflix and work. I'm very active in the gym, rock climbing, boxing, etc so the thought of just constantly doing the same thing makes me go insane. I'm typically the one that breaks things off because I'm just not into it after the first few dates. I do have some deep seated issues with my appearance from childhood. Red hair and freckles and typical bullying stuff. Many women say I'm cute, but I rarely can turn it into something worthwhile. I had a long term relationship in college that I screwed up and paid the price for. I've dated since, but typically can't get past the three month mark. The best advice I get from those closest around me is that it happens when you're not looking. I've tried all the typical advice. What's the next step? Best regards love on the back burner. So first of all, Troy, MI is my hometown, so that's pretty cool. So random. I bet we live. Within miles of each other, you live within miles of my parents. Yes, this often does happen when you're not expecting it, but for people like you and I and most listeners of this show, it certainly doesn't happen when you're not looking. Again. The difference between not expecting it and not looking for a totally different you need to be looking because you're not on the market for a run-of-the-mill Netflix and nail salon type of gal over in Michigan and in Troy, that's a lot of what you're going to find. Fortunately, there are a lot of great educated men and women there as well. That will absolutely be right up your alley. And they're probably all wondering the same thing. What you may need to do is step up the social activities, and I know it can be a pain, but if you're already taking classes and mixing with other people online, you might have to join some specific groups at the rock climbing gym, etcetera. And it sounds like you've got a lot going for you and are especially active. I know there's some group vacations where people go rock climbing and they do adventure sports or other activities. Have you thought about getting some of your platonic friends together and maybe doing something like that? Bringing friends will ensure you have a great time, even if everyone else isn't interesting to you, and they can help you meet people within the group, especially if you go with a mixed group of men and women. The other thing I'll address is your appearance and any sort of insecurity around that. Normally I wouldn't touch this, but it seems like it must be having an effect on your dating because you included it here. Normally this type of stuff resolves itself as we get older or we bury it, right? But if this is really a hang up for you, I'd suggest seeing a therapist just about this specific. Object. And I think getting over even these little hangups could be a game changer for you. Sometimes when we have little hangups like this, we've realized they're not as little as we thought, and hammering down those loose nails is actually a great way to open up some new possibilities. So thanks for representing 17 mile and Coolidge Ave, man. Appreciate that. And go ahead and get get some of those insecurities handled. And then, yeah, step up, lean into surrounding yourself with the high performers, and you're going to find social circles there, even though you might not meet. The girl of your dreams there are. The social circles you find yourself in are going to be what's conducive to eventually finding someone that you want to partner up with. So best of luck and keep in touch. Next up. Hi Jordan, love you guys's show. I'm a young professional about to leave my company for other challenges and opportunities. Leaving my boss and colleagues is the hardest part of it all. I have lunch with the team every day. In our conversations are typically safe for work, lighthearted subjects. I'm good at chatting when given interesting subjects to talk about, but have no skills in coming up with those subjects. I'd like to take my last few days to learn what I can from my colleagues and boss and get to know them in a meaningful way before I leave. How do I make meaningful conversations? Thanks so much for your help. Sincerely trying to go deep? Well, this is a great goal. I like where your head's at and since you all go to lunch together, try to get together with some people for one-on-one conversations over, coffee, etcetera, before you leave the office. You can also do this after you leave, but it'll be logistically easier while you're still in the office and people are more likely to accept. And you can sort of tell them the reason is because you're wanting to ask some specific things before moving on to the next gig, and you don't have to press anything super personal. I would use the Ben Franklin effect. And essentially what this is is asking other people for advice. Because when we ask people for advice, it gets it generates an affinity for us in their mind. Because the theory is that since they're helping you, they must like you. And that sort of rationalization process happens in their head. Maybe it sounds a little manipulative. I wouldn't worry about it. It's from Dale Carnegie, how to win. Runs and influence people, so I feel like it's fair play. You can also ask for career advice going into your new gig. You might end up with some great feedback and you might end up with some tips or tricks or just the option to stay in touch and ask to keep in touch. You can say his phone or e-mail best, and sometimes they'll give you both and you can get both even if you don't end up, you know, texting your old boss or something like that. And ask for a personal as well as a work e-mail. Because if people leave then you don't have to track them down on LinkedIn or try to find their personal e-mail through someone else. Because you never know if you leave and then somebody else leaves, you don't wanna have a bunch of dead emails from your office workers that now you have to find out where everyone is and then I would say hit them up every other month or every quarter and keep those relationships fresh enough. We have systems for that in level one and our level one class which is free one. I'll show you how to keep and maintain those connections. Use those systems. It really will help you in the future, even if you don't see immediate ROI from keeping in touch with people. Emerald office and Congrats on the new gig. This is gonna be great. I'm so excited for people who have new jobs. I always feel like that's so exciting. Alright, Jason, next. Dear Jordan and Team love the show and never miss an episode. I'm a 26 year old male and I've been working in the Super yacht industry for almost five years now. I make about $65,000 a year after tax and have a high disposable income since my work pays for rent, utilities, food, etcetera. The point being that I have a pretty comfy lifestyle. I'm a big fan of self improvement and as such. I eat healthily, exercise, meditate and most importantly, I've started studying part-time before and after work in order to complete my economics and finance degree, which I wasn't able to finish after high school for financial reasons. Although I enjoy my current job, the work is not very stimulating and it's not what I want to see myself doing for the next 10 or 20 years. Last year I made a plan to finish my degree by 2021 whilst still working full time, and then change careers into either the finance and banking industry or Economic Research, which is what I've always been interested in. I really value education and the opportunities that it provides, but the problem is that in my current job I don't actually get enough time to study and therefore I'm going to have to choose to either study full-time and finish my degree or keep working in a job that I don't necessarily want until I save enough money to set myself up in the future. As of now, I've saved up enough money for about 24 months worth of living expenses, and I'm strongly leaning towards leaving my job and living off my savings until I finish my studies by the age of 29 and start my new career. Is this a stupid idea? And am I being ungrateful for a good job that provides me with an awesome life at 29? Would I be too old to start a new career, especially in finance? I must add that I've always identified as an intelligent person, and I feel that my current lack of education does sometimes make me feel like a failure. I would really appreciate your advice, sincerely. Am I a fool to go back to school? Well, this is great. It's funny, there are actually a few people that work in super yachts that listen to this show. It's so. I mean, talk about an industry where you think, oh, I probably don't know anyone who works there. I know. Multiple people that work in super yachts and yacht sort of services and they all listen to this. I guess you guys must have a lot of downtime to listen while. You're rich clients have temper tantrums on their $20 million boats and if you're thinking you're missing something now and your your job, your career at age 26, ohh man, age 30, you're gonna be so restless you'll drive yourself nuts. So no going back to learn about what you really want to do. Not a bad idea. Can you get a job during school to make sure this is what you really want? It might help to do this, and you may have more connections than you think since you're working in the luxury industry in general and finance can be tricky, so make sure it's really what you want. You, and even if it isn't, you already know you don't want to be working in super yachts forever. So school, especially if you're studying something that you have an interest in now, is a good place to go, even if all it does is get you a degree and you're interested in this area. And it gets you some resume backing and some opportunities. Just pay attention to your evolving interests. When it comes to school, I think a lot of people, they choose a degree and then they want to stick with that path and then they want to stick with that industry, even though all of the signs point to this isn't for me. So just pay attention to that voice. And don't think you've lost time and that you have to stick with it, because 29 is definitely not too late to start a career in finance. When I started on Wall Street, I was 27 and I had a law degree, as did many bankers or other clients. So 29 is not too late to start anything either. 39, by the way, and I get it, starting over is scary, but you're not really starting over. You've got a whole career behind you, which makes you much more competitive for jobs and academic programs. You actually have a huge advantage. And trust me, you might. Not feel it now, but when you go to college and you see all these kids doing keg stands instead of studying in the library, you'll realize you're in a different league entirely, and you can work that to your benefit. All right, we're flipping the script again and here is Jordan as me asking John Lee Dumas a question here for feedback Friday. Dear Jordan and now John, a bit of background. I've worked for a multinational company for 16 years now and have owned a small business for 12 of those years. Wow, you can imagine this leaves a little room for any kind of non work life and is becoming exhausting because I'm always working on one or the other. I'm also at the limit of what I can do with the small business while working for corporate America due to a recent corporate restructure. I found myself with the opportunity to take a voluntary severance package and move on to other things. I see this as a chance to go all in on the small business. I've reworked the business plan, have set smart goals. I know you're familiar with that, John, that give me an appropriate time frame to determine if this endeavor will work. If I hit set goals in the right time frame, I continue with this small business. If I don't achieve the goals, then I go back to corporate America and close the small business for good. My question most of my colleagues do not understand why someone would choose to leave corporate financial security. To run a small business, these are serious corporate career types and leaving must equal a midlife crisis. It's also not clear to some if the severance is voluntary on my part or if the company chose to terminate my employment whenever the conversation pops up. I'm very vague but positive about what I will be doing next, and I feel like I've managed these conversations really well. Lately, several of my colleagues have found job listings that they feel are a good fit for me after so many years in the same company. I am respected and I have a deep network. I'm truly humbled that people are reaching out to me. However, I find it difficult to respond. Appropriately, I feel like a thank you should be followed by either something indicating that I will check into it or a brief explanation as to why I am not checking into it. However, I'm not sure that the small business angle won't be alienating. Am I overthinking this is saying thank you enough? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. Signed. She's having a midlife crisis. This is funny, John, because she seems to have the opposite of a midlife crisis. She's like, finally I've got this great opportunity. It's a it's really a unique problem because you see that she's got a small business. For a dozen years, which is. That's a pretty good sample size for a small business, right? Like, it's working, it's happening. And 16 years of corporate experience. So the question isn't, is this gonna work? The question isn't, should I leave? The question is how do I handle this with my colleagues? And I think this is a funny one because you and I have both come from bureaucratic structures. You came from the military. I came from corporate America. And I'm guessing most people in the structure where you were in the military didn't understand that you were going to start something on your own. They couldn't figure it out, you know, for you going into the military, you know, you start in that chain of command, you always are looking up for that next set of orders. So people are looking to me for orders. I'm looking to my captain for orders, the captains looking to the major and this all this chain of commands. So I can kind of definitely understand because I just spent a couple years in corporate finance myself, after the military where, you know, you have this mentality of like, OK, now I'm kind of in this golden parachute. I'm working in corporate finance. You know, this is where it's all going to happen, right? This is where everybody makes all the money, right? That's why I found like her. Comments so fascinating where she said, you know, why would someone choose to leave corporate financial security to run a small business? Uh, these are serious corporate career types, and leaving must be equal to a midlife crisis. The reality is the reason why you would leave corporate financial world is because you're miserable there and everybody there is miserable. And the only thing that you're doing by leaving that's causing this little kind of dust cloud up is that you're holding a mirror in front of their face and they're saying, wow, wait, if Jordan's not happy, if Sarah's not really happy and they're leaving. Then why would they do that? Ohh yeah, I'm not happy too. I just have to ignore that because I am golden handcuffed here. I am stuck here doing that because, listen, I spent two years in corporate finance. I could not find a single person like who was thrilled where they were. They were just stuck there for various reasons. Now, of course you have that 1% that, yeah, maybe there are cut out for that. But listen, if you have this volunteer severance package, you can leave. You can go do something you actually want to do. Are you going to regret that? Absolutely not. No matter what happens, you're not going to regret taking that leap when you're 8090 years old and your deathbed. You are going to regret staying in a corporate job that's sucking the life out of you with miserable coworkers. Period. End of story. You know, I find it. There's gonna be some people that say, wait a minute, that doesn't mean everybody is miserable. Maybe there's some people that just can't imagine it. So I definitely agree with you. There's a lot of people in corporate America that are unhappy and are kind of in denial. And I don't doubt for a second that some of midlife crisis's coworkers are in that boat. They want her to stay or stay in the culture because it seems like. You're right, you're holding up a mirror or a highlighter, like you could leave too. And so it seems like she knows that that could be a trigger point saying, hey, I'm, I'm running a small business and I'm gonna give it a go. I think a little bit of this though is legitimately some of her corporate career type colleagues would never ever, ever leave because it's absolutely crazy and they think that she's lying about leaving. They think she's getting fired because a voluntary severance package sounds a little too good to be true. And so there's probably a little bit of both here, what I think is funny. There is, there's why not tell everybody you're doing a small business and you're gonna give it a go? It seems a little bit egocentric, and I don't mean that she's got an ego issue or problem, but what I do think is this is what stops a lot of entrepreneurs either before their business starts or when it's time to go to the next level. And it's what if I fail? What will everyone think? Does that make sense, John? To me, that's the biggest thing that holds people back, is what will people think? I mean, we live in this tribal culture. As much as we want to get away from it and just, like, not have this as, like, this ring cloud hanging over us, it's innate. We're never gonna get away from it. And you know, back 70,000 years ago when the tribe has spoken and they judged you ill, then guess what? You were cast out from the tribe and you weren't going to make it. So we always will have that in our mind of what are people gonna think? Are people going to consider me a failure? Am I not going to be considered worthy or relevant or fill in the blank and guess what? You're never going to get away from that. You're a human being. But as people like Jordan and myself and other successful entrepreneurs that have been like, I understand I'm having these feelings. But I'm gonna go forward anyways because I know that's what's on the other side of those feelings is much more important than staying on this safe, comfortable side of these feelings and just staying in this jaw where everybody can say, Oh yeah, Jordan works in corporate finance. He must be really rich and he must be really successful into. Oh yeah, Jordan, like, sits at home sometimes. He has boxers on. And maybe he doesn't sometimes. And he just speaks into a microphone, like, like, that's what you and your mind are thinking. You know, when you're taking this leap that people would be saying about you. And it's tough because, again, it's so human. I completely agree. And I think the problem here is really worrying about what these colleagues think. I know that they care about you, or at least some of them do. You have to just tell them I'm gonna give my small business a go and I might, who knows, in 18 months, maybe I'll come calling for that job offer again. You know, you can make that a little bit of a joke. And they might say, what are you crazy? And you can say maybe it isn't midlife crisis, but I'm just going to give it a shot, you know, and and just sort of play it off. I don't think you have to lie to people. I definitely don't think you should tell them you're taking them up on these job listings when you're not because they could make an intro and then you don't follow up and it makes them look bad. The truth is actually going to work well for you here. And who knows? I don't know your small business is, but people can refer you customers and clients only if they know what you're doing. So hiding that from the people you've worked with for 16 years is probably not a great idea. Yeah, and here's maybe the last point that I'll personally make about this because I really do want to make it clear because I just spent two years in corporate finance. So not 10 years, not 15 years. I spent two. So a very small sample size for sure. And guess what? I met some great people. Guess what? I met some horrible people and everything in between. I don't want this to just kind of have some people just take away from this. You know, some of my sentiments were, I gotta share that, you know, most people in corporate finance, like, are miserable and stuff like that. There's plenty of people that are for sure. But quick questions. Jordan, have you ever read the book? It's very recent disrupted by Dan Lyons. I don't think so, no. OK, hysterical. So this guy used to work at Newsweek. He's like a 50 something, old school, old media guy. So kind of more relevant to our last question for that, but he got fired from Newsweek. Because of course it's a magazine. They're laying everybody off. And what did he do? He went and he worked for HubSpot out of Boston. So this new up and coming cool, hip young company and he talks that whole book is about his journey through that. So let me just tell you from reading that book and now his next book on the topic as well as super interesting, he just came out with the second one. People are miserable there too. They're miserable at HubSpot. There are mean horrible people there at this up and coming Internet company and there are mean horrible people in corporate America. That's why I love the opportunity that when. I went out and I launched my business and on my own entrepreneur. Now I can pick and choose like I can choose to hang out with Jordan. Like last time we were at a conference together, we went out, had a great dinner together, had some wonderful conversation, but I didn't have to do that because he's like my colleague or my boss, like we chose to do that. And that to me is what she is having as an opportunity. She's having a midlife crisis woman here is she has the opportunity to step out of that, start running her own life and guess what if those people that are really dear to you and you remain dear with them that are in your corporate. Best life right now are are really actual friends. You can choose to maintain that friendship. Just because you don't work together in the same cubicle doesn't mean you can't remain friends. So some really interesting things to think about when you're having that midlife crisis. Jason, what's the recommendation of the week you picked out something from audible. I actually have this. I just haven't listened to it yet. Yeah, it's a short piece. It's a little documentary called Strong ending, a journey from combat to comedy. It's the story of these people who've come back from war. They're traumatized and to deal with that trauma they get into comedy and doing stand up and they have, they go to comedy boot camps and learn the in's and outs of comedy and it helps them talk about their problems and get through them. It's it's just a really cool story. It's very short. It's only like an hour and 15 minutes and it's got a lot of people in it. Mary Louise Parker is in it. She's basically the host of the show. And comedians Rob Riggle and Maria Bamford are in it as well. And it's just a really cool story and people talking about what happened to them, how this is helping them cope and how, you know, they're helping other people now that they can help themselves. I mean, I'm down for anything that helps veterans and certainly for comedy. And Rob Riggle, actually, I run into him here and there because he's on our network on podcast one. He's a super nice guy. He is super friendly and really nice and he was nice. I actually saw him at a couple of restaurants and I'd smile at him and he'd be like, hey bud. Before he knew that I was on the same network cause once I saw him I think even the same week in podcast one he was like, oh hey don't I know you from somewhere. And I was like yeah you were just randomly nice to me at a restaurant in Hollywood. So I'm, I'm a fan of that guy. He he's well liked by everyone that I know who knows him. And so that always that's really unusual I think for people who are in the limelight. So it seems like he has done a pretty interesting transition from a military career into a very successful comedy career. So yeah, I'll check that out. I like I said I own. Yes, but I haven't listened to it yet. Yeah, if you have an audible account, they've been doing these audible originals where you get 2 free a month. And this was in November. So if you don't have an account or just want to go buy it and listen to it, it's 5 bucks on audible. Quick download, quick listen. Well worth it. I really enjoyed it. Hope you all enjoyed this. I want to thank everyone that wrote in this week. And don't forget you can write in as well Friday at We'll answer your questions here on the end. I'm happy to keep you anonymous. That's what we do for everyone. I'll link to the show. Notes for this episode can be found at Jordan Harbinger. Dot com. Quick shout out to Michael Clobes Clovis, who got married recently. Congrats, man. You're gonna love it. And Vivek, he works over at Google. He knows my friend Amanda from Stitchfix small world. Man, look, I'm proud. I'm happy that you listen to the show. Whenever I hear from you guys, I just love it. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great guests and manage my relationships using systems and tiny habits, some of which I talked about here on the show today, check out our level one course, which is free over at And you can't make up for lost time when it comes to relationships. Don't postpone this. Dig the well before you're thirsty. You can find all this stuff I wish I knew 15 years ago. I'm giving it away. Really? I want you to do it. It will change your life. one. I'm also on Instagram and Twitter at Jordan Harbinger, and it's a great way to engage with me and the show. And Jason, where can they find you? Find me over at my personal website at JPD dot me. And you can also check out my other tech podcast, grumpy old geeks at G dot show, or your podcast Player of choice. This show was Co produced with Jen, Harbinger and show notes for this episode are by Robert Fogarty. Keep sending in those questions to Friday at and share the show with those you love and even those you don't. We've got a lot more in the pipeline. Very excited to bring it to you. And in the meantime, do your best. Do apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time.