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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her social discoveries on chimpanzees. So four whole months, the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear into the vegetation. Bing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Capal Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books to read. Your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. What's blanket training? My baby? No, that's a horrible way to introduce your show. Thank God Sophie's not here. We have been talking. This is behind the ******** podcast Bad People Part 2 Duggar episodes that blanket training my cats. But it it turns out cats are incapable of learning things. Yeah, so that would have been a, you know, a great slogan for got hired. ATI would have been training your babies. We have the blanket answers. We have the blanket. Answers? Yeah. The blanket abusive. I don't know. Yeah, there's not great jokes to tell about. There's, yeah, profoundly abusive cult. Sean, back again to finish our two parter on the Duggars. And hopefully finish talking **** about Ted Wheeler. UM, who's who's who's bad mayor and who got tear gassed for the ******* likes. You know the ******* baby. It was real baby about it. Like that's the that's the thing. Like after having a all of us tear gassed to hell and back for weeks, thousands of people, his cops gassed. As soon as it becomes a national anti Trump thing. The ************ goes out to get like tear gassed once like a big baby and say like oh this shouldn't be done. And then goes right back to tear gassing people. His cops never stopped gassing people. I just. Anyway, Ted Wheeler sucks. Go to total recall PDX to help recall him. And and if anyone wants to start a band that makes fun of Ted Wheeler, here's a good name for you. Tears for fear. Gassed. Ohh, that's a good one. That's a good one. I would have gone with ****. I don't actually have one in the Chamber. Wheeler in the sky. Damn it. OK, you're ahead of me on this one. Guns and Ted's no, that's terrible. Guns and roses. Cities. Ohh *** **** it. OK, well alright, I'm going to guns and roses. Yeah, I'm going to give up trying to trying to win this one. So, Sean, Are you ready to learn a little bit more about Josh Duggar? Oh yeah, I I can still feel. Yeah, we had a. We'll deal with that little problem. So in 2003, Josh Duggar returned home from the treatment program run by ATI that he'd been sent to because he molested two of his sisters. Now, it was at this point that his father, Jim Bob, decided to involve law enforcement, likely as a matter of self protection. If this ever came out in the future, he'd want to be able to say that he went to the cops when it first started. The cop they picked was a state trooper who was a friend of the Duggar family. Joshua confessed, and the trooper presumably told him. Don't do it again now. There's a federal law that says that people who are like cops and teachers or what are called mandatory reporters. This means that if a child or anyone really reports child abuse to you, you have to report it to somebody like like somebody else in you have to escalate it up, basically. Like you can't just be like, yeah, it sounds ****** ** like it's you're committing a crime. If you don't, then go on to report it. This is the case for teachers. It's the case. Is it for health care professionals as good to say it's like to even go like to, to see like, how basic. Of a protect the children thing is, when we get an Amber Alert in the hospital, everyone that's an employee drops what they're doing and goes to doorways to make sure. Like if someone you know, if like someone's trying to escape, like maybe the kid wander off, maybe someone like tried to steal a baby, that happens. You. Yeah, you there. I mean there's there's new stories that come up every now and then, like someone gets like either grief or they're having mental issues. And so they go and they try to get a baby, right. And so but basically everyone has to drop what they're doing and go buy like a public doorway, check everyone that goes by like you got a backpack, you gotta back, you gotta make sure like and that again, that's that's we're not working directly. We don't work directly with kids or not. Everyone is like, I don't from doing like, cleaning and stuff like that. But that's like, everyone stop. There's, there's a child safety. Thing going on. Yeah. I mean, that makes yeah. So this is, again, as you're saying, like, this is a really basic and very like you are supposed to. If you are a mandatory reporter, take this very seriously. You can go to ******* prison. If you don't take it seriously, it's a big deal. The state trooper did not report this to anybody, didn't didn't tell us soul. And the decision of a lawman to break the law in order to protect a child molester may seem confusing if you don't know much about the cop in question is this is this is supposed to be one of those things. Even all of my issues with the police, as a general rule, most people are like, well, but child molesters like, we can all agree, **** those people, right? Like, it's supposed to be a thing that even very wildly opposed people are like, well, yeah, like, we were all on the same page about this this issue, right? Not in this case. So he's more of a mentor in this case, more of a mentor in this case in 2007, four years after his conversation with Josh Duggar, officer. Joseph Hutchins pled guilty to 8 felony counts of quote possessing visual or print medium depicting sexually explicit conduct involving a child. He was sentenced to five years in prison and served three. Hutchins was released from prison on good behavior in 2010 and then, while still on parole, he was arrested again and charged with four counts of distribution, possession, or viewing of sexually explicit material involving a child. He was resentenced to 56 years in prison, where he is now and will probably die. Because even cop privilege has his limits. They did try to let him out after three years, but he well then it's. I mean that's just cruel 56 you know one more one more year could have gotten that Heinz deal, could have gotten that sponsorship. 50. Heinz Heinz is very big in sponsoring child. Look you don't really you got a 57 in front of anything to throw some money some money that we've gotten them in trouble a lot. It's, you know, they should have rethought that idea in hindsight. So from 2005 on, the Duggars grew increasingly popular and relevant. The wild success of their and counting, because they changed the name. You know, a lot more kids is like, whatever and counting shows, we're just going to call it and counting lost counting? Yeah, they were. This made them the single most popular public ministry for the Quiverfull movement. They were never identified as being part of such a movement. On air, of course, Josh Duggar, and continued to be a major part of the show, because again. Nobody knew that he'd done this right outside of this small circle, his marriage was the focus of a special, very Duggar wedding episode. The births of his three children were also covered. Now, while the family was successful in covering up Josh's crimes, the crimes themselves continued. He molested at least three other minors, a total of five victims during the early aughts, and four of them were his sisters. One of them was a baby sister. We'll talk more about this was a babysitter. We'll talk more about this later, but he has at least five child victims. While the truth about Josh did not become widely known for years, there was, however, evidence of it if you knew where to look. In 2006, Oprah Winfrey booked Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar on her show. The whole family was flown to Chicago, taken out for expensive meals, and put up in hotels at Oprah's expenses the way Oprah. Obviously, that's the way the show works. The episode never aired, and as best as I can determine, it seems that someone close to the family found out Josh's secret. There are claims, and it's kind of weird. I don't think we know exactly what happens, but like some family member. Wrote or someone close to the family wrote about what had happened on a note and, like, put it in a book. And someone else who was, I think an associate found the book, a woman in her 60s. This person wrote a letter to Oprah saying like, hey, don't have these people on your show, they're kids. A child molester. Yes. I love the John of God episode. Well, it's one of those things. 99.9% of the time, when Oprah comes up on one of these shows, we're being very negative towards her fact checking. This is not that kind of story. Yeah, Oprah does exactly the right thing in this situation, which is not a thing that happens often, but I I will give credit where it's due here. They they handle it, right. So, because obviously Oprah has a an effectively infinite pile of money, she set a team of people into investigating the manner. And again, a fairly rare example of journalistic integrity for the Oprah Winfrey Show. They seem to have found some comments online. Repeating the allegations, whatever they dug up, concerned Oprah enough that she it seems that she reported them to the Arkansas State Police Child Protection Agency and the Washington County Child Protection Agency. She didn't just this, the episodes never aired, she did just cancel the episodes. But it seems that she reported the Duggars. Yeah, which is the right thing to do. That's always like the the heartbreaking thing for me with Oprah, it's like she's the stand in for the gullibility of America. They just, I just want it to be true. The sounds so good, I want to feel good about it. And then it just stuff spins out or she's like, oh, I. Therefore she follows through. It's like she did this time and again. She's helped enable molesters and other situations, unfortunately. But this time she did she did everything right as far as I can tell. As far as we know, she did everything right there. I mean matter as much as it should. If perhaps we could argue, maybe there was more that could, but she she took them off her show and she reported them to the law, to law enforcement. As far as we can tell, the official police report that we've quoted from was filed in December of 2006. So it does seem likely that she reported them and there was an official police report right now. If so, if if this is how it actually went. Because all of this is a little murky. Oprah gets kudos for being more critical of the Duggars image than any other mainstream media organ. Nobody else. Really devoted that much of a critical eye to them, and again, I'm going to be a fair man here now. In more recent years, once all this blew up, Gawker did a deep dive to see what allegations they could find online about Josh Duggar that might have been floating around when the the Duggars were supposed to be on Oprah. The earliest comment they found seems to have come from a commenter on a 2005 blog called and the The Commenter is the name she used was concerned mom, and this blog alleges misconduct. By the anonymous son of a political man at her church. Quote a few years ago, the men of the church were meeting after church to discuss my friend's teenage daughter's apparel. They felt like their blouses were too tight and they should bind their chests up more. Go figure. At the same time, the son of one of these political men was touching one of my friend's teenage daughters in a sexual way as she slept. This was found out and apologies were made. Although the boy was tempted by the girl's tight blouse. The boy was sent to one of the training centers to be punished. My friends did not return to the home church. Quite some time after this. At the same time the boy mentioned earlier was betrothed to a girl in the group. Both were 14 at the time. The betrothal was broken up by the boys actions. Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel. At the time they had 14 children, were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the Year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaign for U.S. Senate for the girl's father. The father lost the campaign he immediately began. Looking for sin in the camp, as that could be the only explanation for the loss, he found out that the young man Betroth to his daughter had committed sexual sins while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in front of the church and confess his sin. So again she doesn't name the Duggars, but it's there's yeah they only family with a discovery show and there was another 14 if Jim Holt was his name who was running for office and and Josh because they wanted Josh to you know in politics worked on the campaign. The campaign didn't go well and they blamed it on the fact that everyone knew he was a ******* molester and it only became a problem when another man in the church couldn't didn't win elections and then they had to start looking for we'll talk about more the the the scriptural justifications for this but basically there was sin. In the camp. And that's that's when it became an actual problem for him that he was molesting kids. Typical guy getting mad at someone else when he couldn't get his election up. Am I right? That's that's that's that was a rough one. I'm not going to lie to you. Show that was a rough one. Now, in order to understand why this fact after again molesting kids not a big punishment. Yeah, sending in a way that lost a political election to another prominent man in the church that got him a significant punishment. In order to understand why there's that kind of discrepancy, why molesting kids does not earn you much of a punishment in this community, you have to understand what the Institute for basic life principles calls the umbrella of protection. And I'm going to quote from their own stupid. Website Here God-given authorities can be considered umbrellas of protection. By honoring and submitting to authorities, you will receive the privileges of their protection, direction and accountability. If you resist their instructions and move out from their jurisdictional care, you forfeit your place under their protection and face life's challenges and temptations on your own, the institute goes on to state. Under the overarching umbrella of his protection, God has established significant jurisdictional structures, family husbands and parents, government leaders. Church leaders, elders and other believers and employers, which there's a lot to talk about like what? That that's not great. So the way this works in practice is that if anything goes wrong in a child's life or with, you know, someone's wife, it is because they were not properly submitting to authority and thus lost godly protection, the protection of God's umbrella. Likewise, the reason Jim or the reason this this other member of the church is campaign, political campaign failed isn't that he was a bad candidate. It was that Josh Duggar sinned. And opened up a hole in the umbrella that lets Satan it basically. That's the, that's that's the idea here. This not repeatedly molested. Well, this was caused by molesting his sisters, but the fact that it it it damaged the umbrella protection is why he got punished, right? Yeah, that's what was actually bad about this. Now, the reason for this involves a few different factors. One is I elaborated on earlier is that men's sexual misdeeds are seen as fundamentally rooted in the behavior of the women they assault or molest. That's pretty ****** ** but the other factor here is arguably even worse. Under the fundamentalist doctrine the Duggars follow, the Gospel of Bill Gothard, all sexuality outside of procreative marital sex is a sin. Again, Quiverfull kids aren't allowed to date. They engage in something called courtship, which has very frustrating rules, and under which, if you're like holding hands before marriage, that is not OK. That's that is a serious sin, and in fact is a sin on the same level as what Josh Duggar did to his. His siblings. Now, every interaction prior to marriage between male and female must be carefully chaperoned. Healthy exploration is not seen as something that exists and when all sex and even like hand holding is equally taboo, when ************ is the same as child molestation, there's no reason to punish a young man who molests his sisters more than a young man who finds a Playboy in the woods has. The sin is the same, which is. Not great. Not great. I mean it's kind of like how when you you you attach these like draconian penalties to possession of large amounts of of illegal drugs. There are people who be like, well why shouldn't I just kill the cop or something who's trying to arrest me like it's a life in prison. Either way. I might as well try to get away, you know, like it's this if you if you treat. I don't know it it's it's not great. It it doesn't work well ever. When you you do this well and in this specific way and what you've seen from the episodes. Is it creates an extremes on 2 ends where one because everything is under the umbrella of sin under of just like this. Just general sin outside of marriage. Things that are super ****** ** like molestation get. The the severity gets not treated seriously, yeah. And the stuff like holding hands gets treated way too seriously. And so then you get those those those kind of extremes where you have. Josh Duggar molesting people and possibly that she that guy in Atlanta shooting up a spa. It comes from that saying it's it's one of those like kind of a total lack of proportion. Total lack of proportion. It's like throwing a bouncy ball into an empty room. You don't know where it's gonna end up hitting. Yeah, that's exactly right. Now, repeated studies have found out that abstinence only approaches to sex education, and again, these are generally way less restrictive than quiver full sex. Just abstinence only is is not the same as quiverful sex Ed. Repeated studies have found that this attitude towards sex at just abstinence only programs do not decrease sexual behaviors among kids, but do cause kids to engage in riskier sex because they lack the education to do it safely. It also robs kids of the vocabulary they need to adequately explain when something unacceptable has happened or been done to them. In her book a love that multiplies, Michelle Duggar gives a story that her husband tells to their kids to explain the importance of purity. From this we can get an idea of the kind of sex Ed. The Duggar kids both perpetrator Josh and his victims benefited from, and this is Michelle Duggar's writing so. Buckle in for some pros, imagine that your parents are going to surprise you and give you a brand new bike for Christmas 2 weeks before Christmas. They buy your bike and hide it in the storage shed in the backyard. But then the boy next door sneaks into the shed and borrows your new bike. He stunt rides it up and down the back alley. On Christmas morning, your parents lead you out to the shed to reveal the special gift they bought for you, and as they opened the door and say surprise, they're just as surprised as you are. You're all shocked to see that the bike looks like it's been thrown off a Cliff. The front Fender is missing and the front tire is warped so it rubs on the frame. It's dirty, the paint is all scratched and chipped, and the seat has a big rip in it. It looks worse than something you would have bought at a garage sale. I'm sure you would still be grateful for the bike and you would have fun riding it, but it won't be in the condition your parents had hoped and dreamed it would be. When you received it. You would miss out on the a lot of and a lot of the enjoyment they meant for you to have. In the same way, we don't want any boy or girl to come and steal your purity. Pros more like amateurs, am I right? Yeah, I mean, because everyone will be an amateur because you don't know anything when you're married. But also also a little bit of shaming there. I mean, some people are into rip seats. I mean come on. But are people are into rip seats. Some people like, you know, mud on the on the tires. Some people like don't need a Fender. It's also, you know, not great, number one. One of the weird things about this is that for a community that like attacks the secular world as being like obsessed with sex and sexuality, they're completely reducing marriage. To just ******* to just virginity, right. As opposed to just like well, people tend to meet and get married and like life has already happened to them and you kind of take the person as they are and everything that's happened to them. And that's part of if you're in love with someone, what you love about them is the experiences they've had in the person it's made them. This is saying like, no, if they're used at all, they're not as good well. And it's and it's and it's a warping of the experience of love because the you know the the the idea and the the life experience and the joy of love. Is that the more you give, the more you have. And this is saying that, no, your love is a finite thing and that any sort of usage of it takes away from it. Like, it's like Donald Trump and his I don't exercise because my body's a battery. It's going to run out. But he's like this. Yeah. What? With love, but with love? And it's. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot that's wrong with it, including the idea that, like, well, it's actually like if your parents got you a bike, but by the time it was in the shed because it got Rd so much other kids. Came in and upgraded the bike, and it was a much better bike because people had realized, oh, you actually need these new wheels to, like, do a better job of going up these hills. And I don't know, we could. I don't want to continue making bike as ******* mayor metaphors, but you could. Well, you know, I mean, that's something that's going to happen. It's very cyclical, yeah. John, you know what else is cyclical? Ooh, the rising of the 7th Moon on the plains of a distant planet where presumably, yeah. I mean it's unless it's like an elliptical orbit, I guess. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of, but I was going to say what's cyclical is capitalism because. You start with money and money buys products and products create more money and then you get more money to buy more products. It's a perfect circle. Yeah, perfect circle show. I mean the products are fine. I mean once you use the product once, I mean it's it's not what your parents wanted for you so you gotta go get a new one. So don't don't buy the bikes that are advertised on our show. If someone's had sex with them I think is the conclusion we're coming here to say you know just like get like you know like how you get those one use like dispense packs but just get. But with bikes, you get like a 12 pack of bikes from Costco. Yeah, you don't wanna ride a bike twice. So yeah, no, yeah, hopefully Costco's gonna come in here with a mean look. Your parents are sitting at home going, oh God, I hope he doesn't get a bike that's already been ridden. Someone else's *** and my boys bike. What have I done? Alright, here's products. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. 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To be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with Spreaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always feel like an ambassador for speaker. But that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love. Spreaker from iheart this fall on revisionist history. Is there anything that we haven't talked about or or that I should have asked you or you'd like to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Religious history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Ohh, we're back. So in the almost 10 years that followed that first police report, which is again 2006, the Duggar family grew more popular and more powerful within right wing political circles. Mike Huckabee, former governor and presidential candidate attorney, was regularly seen with both Jim Bob and Joshua. They were very tight in with Huckabee. In 2008, he hired Josh to help run his failed presidential primary campaign. In 2012, Josh spoke at rallies for president. The candidate Rick Santorum, a man so bigoted that his last name was turned into a recognized term for the mix of **** come and Lube that results from **** ***. In 2013, Josh Duggar was hired by the Family Research Council, who are themselves kind of like political Santorum now. The FRC wanted him to be the new face of their organization, and he was made as like, I think he's like 1920s, like young man here. He's made the executive director of FRC Action, the lobbying arm of. The right wing organization actually would be in his mid 20s, I think. Now. A Fox News article functioned as a press release for this because Fox News is basically the press arm of the FRC and in that article they wrote quote. The FRC's political platforms include firm stances against abortion and same sex marriage. Josh and his wife Anna have been an inspiration to millions of Americans who regularly turn in to see the Duggar family show, and all of us at FRC and FRC action have long appreciated their commitment to the Pro Family Movement, FRC action President Tony Perkins said. In a statement, we welcome him to the FRC action team and look forward to taking our grassroots outreach to the next level. Now, the FRC itself called Josh the new face of faith in politics. People who walk who walked in similar circles to the Duggar family at the time will claim that Josh was seen as an eventual candidate for higher office, perhaps even a potential presidential candidate someday. That's always the dream of these people, right? They want like, Pence was a big deal, in part because, like, that's as close that's the closest they've gotten one of their. You know someone who's in the cult, so to speak. And Umm, that's what they kind of hoped for. He was being groomed from childhood to do something nationally in politics. And as the face of FRC action, he fought to block and roll back the rights of LGBTQ people, conflating them with pedophiles and arguing against their right to adopt children because they might molest them. Which, again, he's a child molester, arguing that trans and gay people can't be trusted with kids because they molest them as he's molesting people. I don't know, I like, how much do you get harp on it, right? Like it's the thing? Well? Yeah, I mean he because he's he's part of the other thing with like the having everything under the umbrella of sin. It's like, well, if you're, if you're in the club of if you're in the Jesus Club, you can always repent. We can put you in front of the congregation, but we can't put these LGBTQ for other communication. They're just gonna yeah, they might just raise their kids and not molest them and never repent for being gay. Whereas it's better. I don't know. That really is the attitude that it's better for these kids to be molested by godly people who can then. So that's that's to to hammer that point home to do a little bit of a tangent that does hammer that point home. It's like a lot of when you get into like, the Dominionist reconstructionist whatever. Like if you get into talking about slavery, a lot of them will be like, slavery was good because they weren't Christian and they and the black people were in Christian households. So the fact that they were in a Christian household as slaves and the way they were treated, it was a better life for them than being a heathen. Their souls were. Saved, right? Their souls were saved. So that's also what you're again what you're looking at it it's it starts with the IT starts with the conclusion. Ohh, Jesus is head of everything. And then. And is in charge of everything and then works backwards. So any anything that is close closer to him as we define it is always going to be better objectively. Yeah, it's you. You. You've seen the same argument has been made recently. I forget the exact website, but there was just a big column about like, how all of the indigenous people murdered at residential American conservatives. Yeah, it was American, American serve. Like, it was actually good because even though they died, they were being they weren't heathens anymore, right? So like any amount of death is OK if they're not heathens. Right, which goes back to colonialism and which is which? They kind of both egg each other on colonialism and evangelizing to do fun things. These people suck is the gist of people. Yeah, they're not great. So in 2014, the Duggar family went to war against an anti discrimination ordinance that would have gone into effect in Fayetteville, AR. The ordinance was meant to strengthen protections for LGBT and particularly trans residents. It would have created a new position on the city staff dedicated to handling discrimination complaints pertaining to housing, employment, etcetera for LGBT people. It would have also banned businesses from discriminating against queer people. The Duggars spoke out against this ordinance and Michelle even went so far as to lend her voice to a robo call. I'm gonna read a segment from this, and please do your best to not explode from the irony. Hello, this is Michelle Duggar. I'm calling to inform you of some shocking news that would affect the safety of Northwest Arkansas women and children. The Fayetteville City Council is voting on an ordinance this Tuesday night that would allow men yes, I said men to use women's and girls restrooms, locker room showers, sleeping areas, and other areas that are designated for females only. I don't believe the citizens of Fayetteville would want males with past child predator convictions. That claim they are female to have a legal right to enter the private areas that are reserved for women and girls. And obviously if somebody, be they trans or not, had convictions for child molestation, they're not allowed to go and do a restroom where children are because they're not allowed to get close to children. Well, to be fair, she did not list their own beds as a place of privacy for, you know, women. And so, so it, you know, on her end, it works, right? Yeah. And they're, Oh my God. They're arguments after it came out. We'll talk a little bit more about this later. But after it came out publicly of what Josh had done, there's this, this she they got questioned about like. Well, you were just, like, yelling about how trans people shouldn't be able to use bathrooms because it's bad for kids, but your son molested your children. How do you square that? And like, one of their arguments was, well, it's not he wasn't a pedophile because he was a child, too. OK, OK, Michelle, is that what you gotta tell yourself to get to sleep at night? OK, now that same year, 2014, more than 30 of Bill Gothard's female employees came forward with allegations that he had molested or sexually harassed them. Had have you been aware of this? Yeah. This? Yeah. So this is a big deal. And it like torpedoes his organization. Some of the people he molested were children. So again, this is the third child molester we've encountered in this community, and there's you can find a lot of other stories about. Again, there there's we we quoted someone earlier saying, like, I knew multiple families where this had happened. It's because this in a lot of ways, this cult is built around providing predators with access to victims. Gonna say like a cult, just just as a concept is built on predation. Yeah. And so and predation is pretty much allowing. Desire the the desires of the predator may be freely, but being human, so they'll be going to be sexual and this is just going to happen. Yeah. Now my cult is based around the desire to prey on the FDA, which is I think very ethical. So yes, we might attack FDA convoys, we might kidnap FDA officials. That's possible. Anything's possible when the FDA is in play, but that's the only people we hunt is the FDA. And hey if the if the first baby maybe well and if you you know what if you go through a bunch of iterations and the 1st 44 don't work you you'll have Colt 45. Oh yeah we can we could we could get a sponsorship from Billy Dee Williams. Yeah yeah there we go. Or if you get to you know the 57th iteration you got the high and we get, we get that Heinz money which we use to buy arms in order to fight the FDA. I'm pretty sure you can get John Kerry as a sponsor if you get that Heinz money I think you know John Kerry Pokeman. Yeah John Kerry has. Combat experience, which will be useful. Yeah, for our guerrilla war against the Food and Drug Administration. This is all coming together. Yeah. Now. So Bill Gothard, 2014, more than 30 of his female employees in, in, in. Some of these people again say that he did it when they were children. Bill resigned from the Institute for Basic Life Principles and from ATI. But women continue to come forward with allegations eventually, like more than 60. I think we're at right now, like, we're talking Cosby numbers. Yeah. And obviously it's much more than that, right? That's the number who were willing to come forward. 10 more victims sued him in 2016. Here's a quote from an article about that by the Washington Post, one of the Jane Doe plaintiffs in the lawsuit. Alleges that she was raped by her father and her other relatives, and says she was sold by her father through human trafficking when she was a miner. She said she reported the abuse and trafficking to Iblp staff, which failed to report to authorities. Families in the ministry would sometimes send their children to institutes across the country, including its headquarters in Illinois. When the Jane Doe plaintiff was at a ministries training center, she and Gothard both called her father, and Gothard asked him if abuse allegations were true, the lawsuit states. After her father denied the allegations, she said Gothard threatened her. Gothard taught that. Children were to obey their parents even if they were being sexually abused, the lawsuit says. The Jane Doe then alleges that Gothard had sexual intercourse with her without her consent, saying she notified I BLP of the rape through an e-mail in 2013. She alleges that an IB LP employed counselor also raped her in his office at an IB LP Training Center in Indianapolis. David Gibbs, the third the plaintiff's lawyer, said that she is not sure how old she was at the time of the alleged rapes, but was likely around 17 or 18 years old. Again, these kids don't have documents a lot of the time. Another woman in the lawsuit, Ruth Copley Berger, who was the adopted daughter of the counselor in question, alleges that her father sexually molested her. I'm reading this very unpleasant to that's it's ******* endemic. It is all over and I have never heard any allegations about Jim Bob this way, but it is a lot of the Patriarchs. Oh, they're involved in this. It is ******* everywhere in this cult. It's not cool and good. It's it's really not cool and good. But, you know, thankfully this is the only large religious based organization. Where that's ever happened, yes. No other church has done anything like this. It's not like when you claim that there's a hierarchy that gives certain people more access to God. They will use that perceived moral authority to prey on people. Yeah, it's that's never happened another time there. There is there. In fact, there's a giant banner outside the head of the archdiocese in Boston. Molestation. Free since one AD. That's that's that's right there. That's their code. The famously never been involved in any horrible. I know, you know, one of the things I've always been interested in. Again, not not a religious person. Umm, but I I there's a pretty fascinating history of Catholic anarchism and and and Christian anarchism in general that is based in a lot, a lot of what it's based on is this idea that like, well, every time you set up a hierarchy that gives that presupposes certain people are closer to God than others, it seems to be a nightmare. Yeah, that leads to death and molestation and war. Perhaps that should never be the case, which I also think. I don't know, not a Bible expert, but it seems like. This would have been more on board with. Yeah, well, just like, let's try something different. It's, it's, it's. The the most frustrating thing is the lack of acknowledgement that it's that. Being at a specific place in a specific hierarchy, regardless of what you think that means, somehow makes you in a way less human as far as not being susceptible to abusing that position. And it's just it's kind of like, well, no, that's you have to that's, you know. There's yeah and it always kind and he always see like there's just it's the lack of transparency is how is the 1st wall to go up because it's yeah. Yeah, it's a bummer. So at this point in U.S. history, it should be clear that any moral crusaders who base a lot of their arguments on the idea that trans or gay people are threats to children, as a general rule, these people are either harming kids themselves or enabling other people who are harming kids. It's just such a consistent thing. Not 100%, but a lot of the people who do that kind of **** and the rank hypocrisy and the and the rank hypocrisy of the Duggar clan goes further than that. Well, they kept their mouths ******* shut about Bill Gothard in the wake of his fall from grace. They've been doing that for years because their job was to subtly influence people towards fundamentalism without scaring them off. So it's not like they had been super public about Bill, but he they never like. I don't. I don't have any real faith in the idea that they've disavowed this guy, either. It's well, it's like they're they're they're the Tom Cruise to his to his miscavage. Now Josh, the face of the Family Research Council and the last best hope, hope of heavenly rule on Earth, spent his entire time as a family values lobbyist as a paid member of the website Ashley Madison. Now, if you don't recall, Ashley Madison was basically, it may still exist, was a dating app for married people who wanted to cheat on their spouses that eventually got all of its data leaked and hilarity ensued. From 2013 to 2015, he paid a total of $986.76. Other side. So he was a he was a power user. You could say, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of money to spend on the adultery website. Christian Moral crusader Josh Duggar, 76 cents. Is it like tax? Yeah, it has to have been right. Was it was one of those. I hate. Like, you can't even go and cheat on people without having that $0.99 thing, like just round up. Come on. I bet he was really angry about tax. He was his adultery. He was. So this is kind of fun sin. People might get welfare. This makes me angry, which makes me *****. So he listed his desire in finding. He listed his desire on like, the way it's a dating website, right? So you get to like, list your your stuff about you. He lists listed his desire as to finding an extramarital partner for quote, conventional sex. Experimenting with sex toys one night stands open to experimentation. Gentleness? Good with your hands. Sensual massage? Extended foreplay? Teasing bubble bath for two? Likes to give oral sex? Likes to receive oral sex. Someone I can teach. Someone who can teach me kissing, cuddling and hugging, sharing fantasies and sex talk. Now, I wouldn't be getting into this if it weren't for the fact that every aspect of his life and job was based around the idea that all of this should be illegal. Right? Like now he listed his services, listed as services, the fact that he had like these are like the the the the reasons people should be interested in him. The fact that he had good personal hygiene, a secret love nest, and was drug free. Now also in 2014, the year that Bill Gothard got busted for molesting children, and one of the years in which Josh Duggar paid money to cheat on his wife. The four older Duggar sisters cashed in on their family fame by publishing the book growing up Duggar. It's all about relationships. Josh and his wife Anna were invited to discuss their marriage. The book includes this passage from Josh. As I became a young man, I was constantly tempted to have lots of wrong thoughts and often battled to keep my heart right. One of the greatest things that helped me in my struggles was my parents commitment to accountability. They were faithful to talk with each of US children if we were willing to share honestly and openly with them to maintain a clear conscience. I learned quickly that great freedom can be achieved by accountability, but that deep accountability requires humility and openness. I often had failures in my early teenage years, but I found that I had a clear conscience only when I was willing to confess my thoughts quickly to God and to my parents. The Bible Passage Duggar sits in this like he cites a John 119 which reads if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. Which is what you were talking about. Yeah, so wait, wait, wait, you're telling me? The family that doesn't capitalism on how it runs. Released a formal statement with an inspirational quote. I mean they released a book that he gave a quoted. But yeah. I mean, and it's it's yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, yeah. The way in which the daughters he molested, his sisters have responded to this is also very bleak. And I'm yeah, because they're also his victims. I'm not going to, like, get into a lot of criticism or great detail about it, but like, I mean, they're trapped. We'll talk about it a little later. Now of course Josh kept his sins hidden while he was, you know, and he just had said that like you have to confess quickly and openly to God and in people like. But he kept his sins hidden while he was lobbying against the rights of gay and trans people to raise children. This is a big part of what he did for the FRC. He was a big anti-gay rights advocate and it was always judges like this is bad for kids. But those sins did not stay secret and May of 2015 the gossip website in touch succeeded in foiling their way to the truth. They published the long buried 2006 police report. Tailing abuse by Josh Duggar, Josh and his family initially claimed to deflect criticism, or initially attempted to deflect criticism by making weaselly claims about the exact extent of the abuse in a Facebook statement Josh wrote 12 years ago. As a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. There was a lot of talk about like, oh, it was above the clothes. It was never like they it was. It's almost as gross as anything, just like reading them. To talk about why it's not really a big deal that he molested four of his sisters and a babysitter. Now Josh was forced to resign from the Family Research Council. Jim Bob and Michelle made Weasley statements about how they've watched their son like a hawk ever since the initial incidents and that they believed he'd changed with God's help. But the hits kept coming. Two of their daughters, Jessa and Jill, chose to self identify as their brothers victims in July and they actually spoke up to defend Josh and claimed that they've been victimized by in touch publishing the police report. Jesse claimed. The system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life and the ones that are affected by those choices, it's greatly failed. I don't agree with them on this. And again, I'm not going to, like, morally go after them for defending Josh, because whatever they they have to live in this. But I don't think it touched anything wrong. They did not publish any names. Yeah, they did not say here's who he molested. They published that this guy was a sexual predator who was not punished and who had a very public position claiming to defend children. That's in the public interest. Oh yeah. I'm sorry, but it is like, yeah, but it it just sounds like it's. Yeah. Well, it's that kind of like. Whether you with the kind of that cold atmosphere, there's that kind of sometimes lead role in this figurative bunker mentality where it's like, yeah, there's problems in here, but they're supposed to be just in here. And so you kind of you, you put a, you put a unified front and attack the out there. That's exactly what's and it's. You know, you also, you get into this, there's this, there are cases there have always been of people who have children who are molested and do not see what was done to them as bad. And I I guess a good public example would be you have a couple of different rock stars who had sex with groupies who were 141516, right. A number of those women were grew up and were like, I'm fine with it. It was a good experience. It's still rape. It's still like, even if and I'm I'm, I'm not going to say, like, they should be more obviously if that happens to you and you feel you don't feel traumatized. That's good. I I get it's always better to not feel traumatized but like that person that is still statutory rape, that's not acceptable behavior. It's it's it's the the it's the power dynamic that. Yeah or even if they even if the person on the lower end of that feels it was consensual enough where they they weren't it's still like you know these people they're they're taking advantage of you and it's it's a another step in predatory behavior that could come out and is worse for the next person. Yeah and it's it's the I mean obviously this is much more. Fewer than that, yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, this is like, obvious, but it's all kind of along the same chain of it is the fact. And it's very morally. And I'm not gonna get into this much more and focus on like, his victims, but like the idea that, like, they have downplayed what was done to them. Which, you know, people have the freedom to say it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a serious crime, right. It's it's, yeah. But you know what is a serious crime? Not. Buying these products, not buying these products and services. That's right. That's right. Jesus Christ. OK, well. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for. None of that. For anyone who hates their phone Bill, Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for just $15.00 a month. 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I believe it was 18 months after I got on with speaker that I was making enough. That I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always felt like an ambassador for speaker, but that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com get paid to talk about the things you love with spreaker from iheart this fall on revisionist history. Is there anything that we haven't talked about or or I should have asked you to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Revisionist history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Ah, we're back. So. Right, so Josh's sisters kinda came to his defense. They argued that the charges against their that their brother was a pedophile and a child molester were quote so overboard and a lie. One argument that Duggar parents made was that since the abuse occurred while he was also a child, he can't have been a child molester or a pedophile. We'll put a pin in that for right now. It's worth noting that two other Duggar sisters were molested by Josh. Again, it started with two and I don't know the exact time frame, but four sisters. Umm at least one was molested after Jim and Bob Duggar. Jim Bob and Michelle became aware of the abuse. Another victim of Josh was a non family member who worked as a babysitter for the family when she was a teenager. I have not found a lot of details about this case. The Duggar family repeatedly stated their belief that their TV show would not need to be cancelled as a result of these revelations. Underlife there was like 2006 was when Oprah kind of figured stuff out. So you kind of have that as far as like a timeline? Yeah yeah yeah. So before that it's it seems like it was like 2003 to 2006. OK, if he was born in 88, it's that's 15 to 18. Yeah, exactly. On July 16th, though, TLC permanently cancelled 19 kids and counting. Some Republicans who'd posed with members of the family, like Marco Rubio, slinked off into the background and tried just not to make a statement on the matter. But Mike Huckabee charged head first into this as a culture war issue. He called Josh's actions inexcusable, but that doesn't mean unforgivable. And then said that like, we're, you know, coming to the family with love and support. If only they had been around when cancel culture was in full swing. Can't cancel someone just for repeatedly molesting children now, Angela. Yeah. So right around this time, the abuse the user database for Ashley Madison leaked. So all of this comes out, Josh Duggar is outed, then it comes out that he's been paying to cheat on his wife. Not a great year for Josh Duggar, 2015. He made another piddling apology where he called himself a hypocrite and talked about his *********** addiction. Is like I'm a it's the evil **** that has made me do all these bad things. Almost immediately after this, a sex worker, Danica Dillon, came forward and filed suit against Josh, alleging that during a paid consensual sex encounter he brutally assaulted her. Josh denied the allegations, and Dylan did eventually withdraw her lawsuit claiming I didn't have the money to take on TLC or the Duggar family. And I, and again, don't have a lot of detail on that. Seems very like that's a very good reason. I believe I get. I get why she would have done that. I believe her seems totally in character for Josh Duggar. We know he's willing to pay for sex one way or the other. We know he's willing to assault people. I believe her sense of boundaries do not exist. His sense of boundaries don't exist. He claims to have some evidence that, like I think of the taxi receipt, he was in a different place. I don't know. I'm not an expert on the case. Josh checked himself into rehab. Of course, it was a biblically based program called reformers unanimous, and for a while he was able to successfully hide from public scrutiny. This kind of goes away a little bit. His wife Anna stayed with him and TLC did eventually decide to reboot the Duggars show without Josh under a new name, and it seemed as if they were going to get to sweep all this under the rug in the name of TLC's profits, obviously. But that's not what happened. From a write up by Delair Bartlett, who again grew up in the same community in late 2019, there was a hint that trouble. Might be on the way back to Josh when federal agents raided his used car dealership. Always a sentence you can say about the best people. The entire incident was kept very hush hush. The nature of their investigation, what they were looking for, if they found anything. None of it was released to the public. But then those of us who knew Josh Duggar suspected it was something more. Sex offenders, especially pedophiles, require long term intensive therapy from qualified mental health professionals. You can't pray it away and Josh was practically swimming in a culture that excuses and enables sex offenders. Evidence shows the Duggars. Do something else was going to go down. After the raid in 2020, Josh started moving a lot of his assets. He sold the family home and bought a new, unfinished home in Springdale, but he didn't move into it. Instead, he sold it to an LLC in Anna's name and immediately put it up for sale. He then moved Anna and their six children into a windowless outbuilding on jimbob's property. He also shuddered his used car dealership and immediately opened four limited liability corporations in Anna's name. Remember in the Duggars fundamentalist worldview, only the husband? As the head of the family is supposed to own and manage the family's financial resources. But yeah not if you've just gotten rated for well, child ****. Yeah. And see I mean total amateur ******* move there. Look, this is the point. We're supposed to go to Mexico. You should you should go on the Mexico. Right this go to Mexico you already. I'm not going to give a child molester crime advice here. You already look you got you gotta you used car dealership always. You know next you have an untraceable or harder to trace car. Yeah use you know there's you can go down to Mexico. I hear there's some great doctors. We'll give you some plastic surgery. Yeah, that's a shame. Well, not a shame, because he's a yeah, a pedophile. He also. Yeah. Yeah. So again, this just goes to talk about, like, how. Related to convenience, all of this **** is like, it's perfectly fine to Umm, uh, like, you know, women aren't supposed to have access to to to money at all. But like, if you know you need to hide the fact that you or if you need to hide your assets because the feds are after you for child **** well, God will understand. Yeah, now we have more like recently learned what the feds were after were like, after all, in this race. So there's rate in 2019, but they don't say, you know, they're the feds. They're not going to say what anything is about until they're done. Like building their case. That's the way that kind of stuff tends to work. Umm, and of course we now know that he was raided because Josh was viewing and downloading child ***********. He absolutely is a pedophile and a rather extreme one based on the evidence we have. The Homeland Security Special agent who examined Josh's computer described what he found there as quote in the top five of the worst of the worst that I've ever had to examine. And so again with Bellingcat, we do some work with Interpol in terms of trying to track down. Pedophile, particularly people making child ****. And the way that it works is that they, they have people who actually view the *********** and will take screen grabs from it and cut out, you know, the the human beings remove anything that's actually like sexual in nature, anything that's obviously illegal. And you will just get like photos of like stuff that's in the room, so like toys that are in the room, like maybe views out of. And the goal is to like, where is this happening? Because sometimes there's certain resorts that these people use. Is this the same person in this other video? Well, you never see the people. But it's like, here's a toy. Maybe if there was mind if there was like, not not the person involved in the act, but like if you see someone, yeah, any anything that might help you track down details around it. And it's it's very complicated and painstaking work. But the worst work is the people and it's a very small number of people who are actually viewing the original *********** which is you have individuals like that who are in law enforcement, both federal and kind of internationally. And I think there's also, there are certain like researchers. And journalists who can. There's, like ways to get legal approval to, like, analyze certain point and like, that kind of work is the worst thing I can imagine doing because, like, they have to look at the unit like the child abuse videos. I can't imagine a more difficult or traumatizing job, and a guy whose job is to do that, says Josh Duggar's **** stash is like one of the worst things I've seen in my career looking at child ***********. Yeah, which is a statement. Yeah. That's. I mean it's. Oh yeah. Is any of that because like I've I actually, it's about a decade ago Now I was on a a grand jury, which is if people aren't familiar with that, there's you get you get jury duty, you're on a case. Grand jury duty is where you have your four weeks. It's a nine to five in a room and you see a bunch of and the prosecutors bringing evidence and you kind of give a yes or no vote to whether it goes to trial. Yeah. Right. And we I was in Multnomah County. It was the. I forget which number it was, but we had cases where it was involved like child abuse, sexual abuse, and the kids had to come in and be witnesses. And they we had and we had people that work specifically just with them and with the stuff that they have to deal with coming in and helping them through it. And it was just all so just incredibly tense and fraught and to just be in any part of that, especially the part where you see the the trauma happening in real time. Yeah, that's yeah. I mean it's there's that whole the, the, the legal framework set up to deal with all of that, all those kind of cases is, is very interesting in a lot of ways. I interviewed a guy when I was working for cracked years ago who's side job was. So obviously when children are molested, they're going to need to talk to someone, give statements to law enforcement, right. Which means ideally if you're trying to do this in the most ethical way because cops don't normally talk to children about stuff like that, you want to train them. Right, yeah. And you don't want to train them on children because you don't want to, like, have a kid come in. You don't want to learn on the job with that sort of thing because it's already traumatizing for the kids. So there are actors, generally adult actors, who look much younger, who train and how to mimic being a molested child and will train like, federal agents and stuff to interrogate, not interrogate. That's. But to interview children who have been victims of sex, like it's. There's a lot of work that goes into trying to protect kids as much as possible within what is already a nightmare for them. Yeah, but yeah, but what's the worst that can happen? Like a satanic panic or something? Like, yeah, and if anyone is a super bummed out by what we just talked about, go to Bellingcat and look up a WhatsApp, a flash card. Flash card for the Nuclear Secrets article. Yeah, that all of the guys. So yeah, we did an article recently. I had no involvement in it, which, you know, is people who are much better journalist than me. But yeah, they found that, like all of the people guarding our nuclear secrets had like been using public flash card apps. You could search them and find, like, code phrases to, like, get on to nuclear weapons sites. It was like a place in, like, Eastern Europe that. Yeah. Yeah. Was never a confirmed, unclear site. Yeah, there's a lot now. Yeah, it's very funny, very funny how slapdash all of that is. But thankfully, they put a little more thought into, I don't know, child molestation, which is good. So, yeah, again, this ******* the, this the Fed, whose job is to, like, analyze this stuff, is like, Josh Duggar's computer is one of the worst things. See my career of watching nightmares. The agent stated that he found multiple images on Josh's computer depicting sex abuse with children from 12 to 18 months old, so he has a preference for very, very young kids now. This came after Josh had made public statements about his Ashley Madison account, which he blamed on his *********** addiction. As a result of that, he'd installed a program called Covenant Eyes, a Christian based web like it's Christian based program. That take screenshots of your online activity at random and uses machine learning to analyze them to see if you're looking at ****. And it sends those screenshots to a trusted ally to keep you accountable, right? The goal is to stop you from looking at ****. Now, Covenant Eyes apparently did not detect Duggar's prolific child **** browsing because he'd installed Tor and was using he was. He was. Yeah, obviously. Like, the dark web is where you go for that **** right? You want to buy drugs? You want to hire A hitman who's actually a fed, or you want to find child *********** that's with the dark weapons for? And yeah, so presumably that's how he found his ****. Josh was charged with just a lot of federal crimes, say a whole bunch of federal crimes. He currently faces up to 40 years in federal prison. the US District Judge who handled his detention hearing said that he could not return home to live with his wife and children for reasons that I shouldn't need to explain now, the cult being the cult, Josh is still their special boy, and his crimes are obviously the fault of Satan and probably those sinful children as a result. This community leapt into action to defend him while expressly ignoring the interests of vulnerable people who weren't Josh Duggar. They found another Quiverfull couple, couple Maria and Lacount Reeber, and convinced Lacount that they should put Josh up while his trial went on. Lacount told the judge their home would be good for Josh because it doesn't have Wi-Fi or children. But of course, the story behind this was much more ****** ** than was initially reported from a write up by Jessica lay on the website churchleaders.com Josh Duggar's. Father Jim Bob Duggar called people in his church to see if any would be custodians for his son. When Josh was released on bail, Jim Bob found a man willing to take Josh in, except that man's wife teaches piano lessons to children and she was not comfortable having Josh home with her all day because she would be alone with him while her husband was at work. That didn't matter to the husband. However, she has to find a new place to teach all those children because her husband wants Josh to live with them. That's a quote from a member of the community. Now, you know, if he hadn't been rearrested, he would have been. He would have said to live with that trooper. Well, he's in prison, yeah, so if he if he hadn't then he will be soon. Maybe, yeah. So Maria Rieber has said that she is uncomfortable being alone with Josh Duggar and is also uncomfortable with her with her 22 year old daughter being alone with him. However, at Wednesday's hearing, Reeber testified my husband has made the decision and I'm here to support that decision. Healthy ****. Healthy ****. Now, in the reaction to Josh Duggar's charges, we see more evidence of women in his community supporting him at a cost to their own safety. And again, these women are victims. I'm not, like, criticizing for them, but it's this is what's happening. They are mortgaging their own safety and the safety of their family members to protect this man. You know, can keep in mind, too. Like they're in, they're under the same value system where like, yeah, he did this, but, you know, like. I held hands with. So you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I looked at a man when I was out in town recently. Yeah. Both that same. We're none of us is perfect. Yeah. He molested multiple children. One time I looked at Kurt Russell in a movie and thought he was hot. Yeah. Equal crimes, which they kind of are also you know that that again, that tension of like Oh well the the civil authority or the government has civil authority over a few things. And then everything else is under God. And while this is a family matter, so it's. Their God. So we're going to be a united front. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God, it's not great. So the write up I just quoted sites racial denhollander at several points. She's sorry that and that was it wasn't a member of the community that was quoted. There was racial denhollander. Well, it kind of is. So Rachel Denhollander is best known as the first woman to speak out and file a police report against USA Gymnastics team Doctor Larry Nassar, one of the most prolific child abusers in the history of child abuse. She says she was groomed. For the abuse she received by Nassar because she was molested as a child in an evangelical church, she was disgusted to see Maria Reeber being pushed to accept a child molester into her home quote. Every single family who takes piano from her and the wife herself has to uproot their routine livelihood and the child's musical education. Because Josh, everyone is expected to bear the cost except Josh. And the wife's own very reasonable fears about being alone all day with a man who enjoys the sexual torture of toddlers didn't matter to the husband either, the men in the situation. The leaders making the decisions. While the women are expected to submit. She also provides what I think is a realistic explanation for why Ann Duggar, Josh's wife, has stood by her husband for so long, even after getting unconvertible incontrovertible evidence that he is not safe to be around their children. Quote denhollander scenes sees Anna Duggar's silence about her husband's sexual proclivities as symptomatic of certain evangelical teachings about the proper role of wives, Denhollander referenced several concepts promoted in some conservative. Articles including the complementarian teaching that wives need to respect and submit to their husbands. Some conservative Christians emphasize the idea that God hates divorce so much that they encourage women to stay in abusive situations. And it is not unusual for Christian women to be taught that they are responsible for men's lust if they are married. Women are encouraged to make sure to have regular sex with their husbands so that the men will not be unfaithful. Anna certainly couldn't tell anyone because that would not be respectful, said Denhollander. That's how we counsel. Lives in these marriages, but she was certainly taught to have sex more to fix it. Her own mother-in-law wrote blog articles that said as much. TLC at least cancelled counting on in June of 2021 after 11 seasons on the air. They claimed that it was important to give the Duggar family the opportunity to address their situation privately, as if the family had not been given ample opportunity to address the situation privately in the more than 10 years between the first allegations and the widespread reporting on Josh's behavior. You were. You remember when we all thought Honey Boo Boo was the worst thing on TV? Yeah. Jesus Christ. I mean, yeah, this was always great. Yeah. But, like, it's like, Oh yeah, that's what we were. That's what we looked at. That's what people were freaking out about. This was just sitting there the whole time. Well, Sean, how do you feel? Did you get did you feel good about this two parter? Oh yeah. It's a feel good that it's out there now. It's it's like I said, it's a yeah, I feel like it's this the people and some of the and the depth is it's something that comes up more in people that are kind of more versed in the communities and so it's good to have it. You know out there and to have other people kind of look at or be aware of these communities especially because you know again in that kind of like you brought up like the people that are under the umbrella of authority, employers people this and that you you know it's it seems like a maybe like a this isn't just like an off road into some little group it's like this is this comes back to climate change because you have people that either they're they're they're concerned is the end of the world either to prepare it or. That it's coming. So they don't really care what shape the planets in. Yep, the employee that'll fix it all if we just fix it. We have to focus on doing all this moral stuff we can't getting everybody. Yeah. Yeah. The way we recycle or treat the environment with our waste has nothing is is fine because we're a successful company, so we're clearly blessed by God. Yeah, it's a you know? It's just wanted to me, seemed like a tangent, but it's just there's all these things that Oh yeah, that are very real to. People who may not feel they have any sort of connection to what's what happened in this story that's like, well, no, this is this, this, this thinking that leads to this leads to a lot of other problems that we have because this specific religious idea ideology. And obviously the Quiverfull is kind of a more extreme expression of it. But the thoughts behind it are incredibly mainstream because again, it being a cult that you don't get to the really, you don't get to the really heart of it until you're deep into it. So a lot of stuff and again it it's kind of, it's an offshoot of. Something larger that's gone mainstream, like you talked about with the southern, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention, but what's been brought up in past episodes about evangelical coming together as a voting bloc and and throwing themselves behind the Republican Party and then eventually kind of being more the the main driver. I'm sure you can go back and look and see a lot of the stuff with the Tea Party, which you know, it goes as a precursor to Donald Trump and you see the same thing. It's like. And by the ***** well you know he's you know he's he's one of us he's it's it's you know who hasn't who hasn't held a hand or grabbed a *****? It's you know yeah. Who hasn't. Yeah. If you looked at someone with lust in your eyes it's the same as assaulting somebody. So he's no worse than any of the rest of us. And yeah they they see him as you know obviously he became president like they they wanted Josh Duggar too. So they were going to kind of try to keep the way Greece for him to go and not hold him accountable because they see him as a ticket. Well. John, this has been bleak, but important. I'm glad that you picked this subject I've been wanting again. I've been meaning to kind of to deal with this at some point because it turns out we actually have some of the same friends who have gotten involved in aspects of this and and I've seen people like over the years kind of feel like they they kind of. Being more if tending to be conservative and religious tend to slip into it. There's kind of A and it's and it's not necessarily that all religion or conservatives necessarily lead to that. There's actually I've seen a lot of it's yeah there's a lot of the great reporting on this has been done by other Christian, even evangelical news sources who are very critical of this and are very critical of like Bill Gothard and the abuse and that chunk of the community. This isn't a problem with Christianity. This is a problem with. Yeah. I mean, it's a problem with human beings and the way religion generally works. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a deeper problem. It's not just an. It's not like the specific issue isn't Christianity. The specific issue is how people abuse each other and use systems, including religious systems, to abuse each other. Like to to be, to be really clear and to also kind of, again, bring people in who maybe not as familiar on the religious side more on the secular side. You know, think about it. This is going to hurt. Think about Bill Maher for a second and you know, the whole, like, the kind of along that lines of where it's like, oh, religion. You're just taking shots at religion. Religion is a problem. If religion went away, all the problems would be solved. Well, that kind of, that kind of thinking or posturing, it's like, well, yeah, people killing. Like there's deaths after sporting events when the team won. Yeah, like burning cars and flipping like people are going to be people. It's the, the, the. It's, it's. It's Christianity gets not singled out, but it is looked at mainly because of the power structure that it has within this country puts it right at the heart of a lot of the things. I mean, and it's it's power and structures of power and hierarchy that always are what enables the abuse, whatever form it takes. Because again, if you want to talk about and I think people, you know, and I I had my angry atheist years, but I think one of the ways in which people go wrong is thinking that it's something inherent to religion when it's something that's inherent to power because, for example, the the ******* we've done. The number of episodes on Nexium, you know, that that horrible cult, which is very much based in like, these evolved and in scientific attitudes, and that's at least the way they framed it was not, like supposed to be a religious cult as it was supposed to be as much of like a. It was, it was a, it was a rape cult for the NPR set, you know, like that was the way it was framed. It's just anytime you give people these positions of power where you're investing them with special knowledge and acknowledging that they have some sort of like. Special knowledge and special uh. All in, when you're saying that, like, that person is closer to some sort of special truth that makes what they say and do more valuable than other people, you invest them with a kind of power that will more often than not be used to hurt people, right? Yeah, that's the way it is. Yeah, you have Quiverfull on one end, and. You know, I don't know. Goop. Yeah, goop, Nexium. I mean, yeah, again. And there's an element of this that's like, this isn't all quote behavior. Yeah, because I don't think I don't know if I'd call goop a cult, but Google, a number of the things that are toxic about goop are also things that are talks about toxic about cults. And the same way that like a number of things that make you a successful stand up comedian could also make you a good cult leader. Because certain these are these are patterns that can be. And there yeah, I don't know. This is this is more of a discussion that I want to get into right now, but there's a lot. That gets into why. Colts are deeper than religion, yeah. Cults are about some things very hardwired in the human mind, and I don't think that that hierarchy is hardwired. It's not hardware. It's the wrong way to put it. We have been abusing each other using systems of power for, you know, 10,000 ish years, if not much longer. And there's a reason why, and it's because. Our brains are vulnerable to that in the same way that certain people's brains are, you know, vulnerable to heroin or alcohol or whatever, everyone's brains are vulnerable to cults. It just depends on finding the right cult. And it's my, I think the reason that Christian cults are much more dangerous is in our societies, because they have so much more political power, because there's so much more mainstream. That makes it easier to hide, right? Because a lot of Nexium gets busted up much quicker than Bill Gothard. You know, but that's not anything inherent to religion. That's something inherent to the level of power we give that specific religion in our society. Yeah, it's more under unaccepted umbrella. Yeah. Yeah. Back to umbrellas. So, Sean, you wanna, you wanna plug anything before we? Yeah, I got me personally. I don't have like on myself. I don't do much on social media. Couple things I would like to plug that are just near and dear to me. Aside from, you know, Ted Wheeler recalling tedwheelerpdx.com, there is a place in down by Los Angeles. It's La Guinea pig rescue. It can be LA Guinea pigrescue.com. And they have like a YouTube channel. I have, I have. Had four Guinea pigs. I still have three with me. They're they're sweet little creatures. They, there's a thing they do called popcorning. It's like they get super excited. It's like a full body joy gasm ohh babies. And it's one of those things where it's like with that, and I've had hamsters too, there's this people kind of think it's like, oh, it's it's a starter pet. Like because it's they're gentle or easy enough. A kid can take care of them. It's like, no, they're still complex creatures with big personalities and specific needs. So, Ella, Guinea pig rescue. So kids get them and then can't take. Yeah. And turtle problem all over again. Yeah. And they have, like, one thing that people don't always realize with Guinea pigs is they are unlike hamsters where you can have them by themselves and they do their own little thing. Guinea pigs are very social creatures to the point where there are, there are laws in at least Belgium and Switzerland that, like, pet stores have to sell them in pairs. Oh, that's because they get very, very depressed if they're by themselves. Kittens came in a pair and I would never split them up and you know, it was like they have to. And there's also you have to make sure they're bonding and this and that. But anyway they do. LA Guinea Pig rescue does. It's like 2000 to 2500 adoptions a year. Right now they're in a bit of a struggle because they just rescued almost 200 Guinea pigs. Who was this like a pandemic? A lot of it was in Norcal, Northern California. I want to say it was like someone that was like raising Guinea pigs to feed to pythons or they were. Or it was like, you know, Python's made food. Yeah, right. Or they were like hoarding them or whatever, but they weren't taking care of. They were. So they were caring for them. And so and and to the point where there's a lot of them are special needs. Some may never be adopted and they'll just be, they'll make sure they're taken care of for the rest of their lives. But, you know, it's like because they when they're mushed together, they were given the wrong food. So like they're messed up teeth. They they're they're eyes missing because they get bites and it's it's really bad. So what is this place called again? LA Guinea pig. Guinea pig rescue. Well, so if you help out the LA Guinea pig rescue, yeah, that's what they call it. And like I said, there's video videos on that. They have a YouTube channel. And even if you're not, you know, in the LA area because you can volunteer and help out there even if you don't like are enable this deal, send a couple bucks to help them just looking at the videos or like, if you're going to get a Guinea pig, like, looking at these because they're there. Because they want the animals to live their best lives, yeah. So. Just informing yourself and being prepared and taking care of, of, of, of the animals. It's kind of like you saw with the pandemic, people got a lot of dogs and put them back. It's there's this. I mean, people, if you understand the concept of foie gras, how terrible that is, this is like emotional foie gras where you're just stuffing an animal with your sadness, sadness to feel the whole, to fill the hole inside yourself. And it's like, that's it's it's not good. It it going back to cycles of abuse and human behavior, it's like it's just down cycling the abuse onto animals when they can be a huge source of unconditional love and helping you break out of your cycles. They help me a lot with like depression and anxiety, stuff like that. It's hard to be sat around a Guinea pig. Yeah, so la Guinea pig rescue. One other thing. So there is a movie that came out. It's about one hour. It's a documentary came out in November 2020. It's called the forgotten battalion. I have a friend. Who I met through my brother when they were in high school. He was in the Marines, went and fought in Afghanistan last day. There is like doing a like, they're having them show the patrol and they're like, oh, let's go down this way, which is not a way they usually go. So IED, he has ended up losing both legs and it's so the the area where they were at and this is in 2008. Afghanistan, it was. It's about the size of Oregon, I believe. And they were past the supply lines, they were past air support. They were just left out there. And why it's called the Forgotten battalion is it has, as far as I know, and I hope this is true, because it's terrible news if it isn't the highest suicide rate in the armed forces, four times the average for the armed forces and like 14 times the average American Jesus. But why I'm. And drawing people towards this. So, Chris Bride, that's the guy's name. He. Amazing guy. He's he's worked he it's it's a very direct and blunt documentary about dealing with. Suicide about dealing consequences of these wars that these shotgun people out to. Yeah. So because he, you know, he's very directed. It's like, yeah, no, I wake up and I wanna kill myself everyday you. But he he is like, he's all anywhere. He's been like San Antonio and the VA up here. He was in Oregon for a while. The documentary was actually filmed on the Oregon coast. He would always try to you know, do stuff to to kind of help out. The other veterans he's doing this is like they went on like a fishing trip on the coast and it's basically they all get together, they talk about it. It's been super, super helpful for all the. All the soldiers involved, it's like a couple people that had worked with him wanted to do this documentary because of the change that he had been able to affect. And again, it's it's very, it's it's B, it's not it's. I feel like sometimes we we're not always as directed and realistic and not in like a a bleak, terrible, blunt tool, but it just basically like, no, this is the reality, this is how they deal with it. And so just kind of. So promoting the battalion, the Forgotten Battalion, you can find it on Apple or Amazon. I would prefer Apple over Amazon. Just given the company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're you're picking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tim, Apple hasn't gone to space yet, so I'm generally agree with you there. Yeah, OK. The Forgotten battalion, the LA Guinea pig rescue, and check out total recall PDX, especially if you're in the Portland area and you wanna sign on to recall our ****** mayor. Sean, thank you so much for your donation, for the episode idea, and for helping me make bring it to life. The Frankenstein Monster of sadness. Yeah, alright, well that is an episode. Bam. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break our handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioural discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Listen to amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kapal Tojo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books through your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts.