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The one you feed explores how to build a fulfilling life, admits the challenges we face. We share manageable steps to living with more joy and less fear through guidance on emotional resilience, transformational habits, and personal growth. I'm your host, Eric Zimmer, and I speak with experts ranging from psychologists to spiritual teachers, offering powerful lessons to apply daily. Create the life you want. Now listen to the one you feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey y'all, it's Caroline Hobby hosted get real with Caroline Hobby interviewing the most fascinating people in Nashville and beyond. I talked to artists, I talked to the wives of artists. I talked to women entrepreneurs who have created businesses, who are moms, who juggle a million hats and do it all. Each episode will leave you inspired, feeling like you can accomplish your own dream and calling. Listen to new episodes of get Real with Caroline Hobby every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcast. It's me, Robert, with the show. Evans behind the ********. This is the podcast that this is when we talk about the bad people. Sophie, you look very confused. They can't all be. What's cracking my pavas, you know, we're we're not all. They're not all going to be perfect. I am Robert Evans. This is behind the ********. The show. We tell you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all of history. My guest for Part 2, as with part one, is Tamara Catan. Hey, how you doing? I'm doing great. And joining the conversation, Are you ready to learn a little bit more about Roger Stone? I'm ready to learn more and ready to sleep less easy? Yeah, well, that is the Roger Stone guarantee. So one of the reasons I might believe the claim that Roger Stone was a major influence on Trump's mind is the fact that he and Donald Trump really do have quite a long history of working together. Despite Donald Trump's 2012 comments that Stone was a stone cold loser, he was happy to continue to work with the man after his 1999 Reform Party candidacy failed in 2000 while he was helping George. W Bush in Florida Roger Stone also took time to help Donald Trump with a new pet project. A grassroots anti gambling campaign, it was targeted at the Mohawk nation. The tribe had opened a casino on their land in New York State and planned to open another casino in the Catskills. At the time, Donald Trump owned three casinos in Atlantic City, the Northeast traditional gambling hub. Clearly the Mohawk nation represented a threat to this earnings of Donald Trump, the Adstone designed arm. Pretty on the edge as far as racism goes. I've got a clip of one of them here, which we'll have up on the site. Right in the ************ it says in big letters, drug dealing at Monticello or Monticello, whatever, Thomas Jefferson's creepy house and got like a picture of, like, a needle and lines of cocaine and like a baggie of drugs. And then it says, quote, the Saint Regis Mohawk Indian Tribe proposes to open a gambling casino at the Monticello Racetrack and Sullivan County. How much do you really know about the Saint Regis Mohawk Indians? According to the New York Times, US and Canadian law enforcement officials broke up the biggest cocaine trafficking ring in northern New York. Operating on the 14,000 acre Saint Regis Mohawk Reservation, 26 people were arrested. Police also confiscated 19 shotguns and handguns. And it goes on like this saying Indians are criminals. That's the and fear mongering. Just like the border crossing where they used pictures of people crossing the border in Spain. Yeah, just lies about women being duct taped and stuff. Now this this ad, which is pretty offensive, is noted on the bottom as a project of the New York Institute for Law and Society. You ever heard of the New York Institute for Lion society? Nope. Well, it claim to be a grassroots organization made-up of 12,000 pro family donors who just, you know, they don't like gambling he's done anymore casinos in their neighborhood. The reality is that you could probably have counted the actual number of donors. Using one hand, Donald Trump put up virtually all of the money somewhere around $1.5 million. Trump signed off on the ads and the language used in them, and paid the bills for the private eyes stone hired to surveil the tribe. The whole operation. Was Roger's plan because this organization violated New York laws on lobbying? Because you're not allowed to pretend that something has a bunch of funders when it's just one guy who's doing it so that his own casinos don't have competition. You're not supposed to do that. So the state investigated. They wound up sitting down with Roger Stone and interviewing him. Here's the LA Times quote. Stone told state investigators that he thought the public might pay attention to a pro family group, but not to Trump, a loud and longtime critic of Native American gambling who is trying to stave off competition for his three casinos in Atlantic City. You could hide Trump's actions from the public. The investigators grilled stone, and you did that over and over again. Yes, stone answered, each time, finally adding nothing is wrong with that. By the way. There actually was something wrong with that. Trump and her stone were fined $250,000 for breaking the law and required to pay more than $30,000 to run statements in Albany area newspapers. There's nothing for them. Yeah. Which is nothing for them. Yeah. This is the the text of the statement. Donald Trump, Roger Stone and Thomas Hunter apologize if anyone was misled concerning the production and funding of the lobbying effort. They did not apologize for the ads content. Now, over the next 15 years, there were dozens and probably hundreds of other stories like that. Roger Stone developed a special hatred for Eliot Spitzer, Attorney General of New York from 1999 to 2006 and then governor of the state in 2007. Now Elliott was born rich, like a shocking number of U.S. politicians, and his father had pumped millions of dollars into his career. Back in the mid 90s, right around the time Elliott was elected governor, he threatened to release records about Republican Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno. There was basically like a rumor that. Marino had been using state aircraft to aid in his reelection campaign, and Spitzer was going to like, release records that would prove that or not. And I think Bruno was eventually found not guilty of that. I'm not sure. But he was also later found taking a bribe and then got off on like a technicality, but totally received like $400,000 from some guy anyway. So, so Joe Bruno, Republican Senate Majority Leader of New York, did not like Eliot Spitzer. These guys were at each other's throats and in order to get back at his political enemy and to distract from his own corruption. Charges Joe Bruno called up Roger Stone and offered him $20,000 a month to end Eliot Spitzer's career. Roger gleefully dove into this effort to destroy another person. One June morning in 2007, Elliott's 83 year old father, Bernard, who suffered from Parkinson's, woke up to find this message on his answering machine. This is a message for Bernard Spitzer. You will be subpoenaed to testify before the Senate Committee on investigations on your shady campaign loans. You will be compelled by the Senate Sergeant at arms. If you resist the subpoena, you will be arrested and brought to Albany. And there's not a *** **** thing your phony psycho ***** ** **** son can do about it, Bernie. Your phony loans are about to catch up with you. You will be forced to tell the truth and the fact that your son's a pathological liar will be known to all. So yeah, by the way, that is when I quoted in the first episode Donald Trump calling him a loser and saying he's a liar and everything. That's why. Because actually Donald Trump liked Eliot Spitzer's dad and was like actually like, Donald Trump was morally offended by this message. It's a hard line to hit it. It's pretty gnarly to go get an 83 year old man. Yeah, an ill 83 year 83 year old who is the father of the guy you don't like. God, and attack him that way. Who you got paid to not, you know, like, yeah, he didn't like him, but it's like his job getting paid to destroy his son, not dad. Like, how does that help you deal with Elliot Spitzer? He's just a gross person. Now. Roger claims that that's not him. We're going to dig into that a lot here. That's as much him as his suits are him. That's a pinstriped voice. I will let you know what we'll put in a link to that particular audio clip on the site. It it it includes after the the voicemail several clips of just Roger talking here for yourself. That's ******* Rogers. So him. But like Bernard Spitzer hired a Pi who traced the call back to Rogers apartment and stuff like it's it's definitely Roger Stone. Unless you're Roger Stone now. Roger has always denied. Making that call he has. In some recent interviews, Quailey said it does sound a lot like me, but he blamed it at the time on former stand up comedian and radio host Randy Credico. Now we're going to be talking about Randy Credico a little bit later today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Randy Credico was like a comedian. He was on like Leno sometimes. He did like improv and he stone was basically like, he's so good at doing fake voices. He pretended to be this guy and this guy. It's clearly him pretending to be me. And Credico was like, I haven't even talked to Roger in years. Why would I do this? Yeah. Like which and why would you do something so mean and evil? Yeah, a comic. And one thing to be like, not funny. Maybe this comedian called up the Governor of New York to leave him a ****** messages someone else. OK, I can imagine that happening. Like, Opie and Anthony did ****. But his dad? Yeah. Like why? And then and there was no, there's no jolly you in it at all. It's just cruelty. Yeah. Yeah. Now, Stone and Credico had met back in 2003 and Randy had introduced Roger to Al Sharpton. Sharpton had hired stone to help with his 2004 presidential run, probably in the hope that Sharpton's campaign would take votes away from John Kerry, Roger would later tell the Washington Post quote. Credico became convinced that he should get paid for introducing me to Sharpton. He refused to do so, stone continues, because while Credico is a cocaine addict and stone knew that any money he gave to the guy would go quote up his nose. So Roger Stone leaves this really gross message. It's obviously him. He blames it on a friend of his that he hasn't talked to in years and also says the guy's a coke addict. Now, this may sound a little bit familiar to you. Well, but also Roger Stone, when it came out that he had been putting up sex ads in these magazines, like, no is my housekeeper. Yeah, like, and Trump throwing his own, his own son-in-law under the bus. No one sacred. No one is safe. Yeah, it's a gross way to live. It really is. And the only way you can live that way is if you have more money than God. You know what kills me is all my life I've grown up watching these Hollywood films and I always just a sense of justice. Look at me. Happy. Yeah. Believing in things like Karma, believing that things come around. This is a movie where the bad guy went is winning so far? And I'm like, why is this movie so long? Why? Why is this movie my entire life, which he gonna get it, man? Look, I've ever seen a guy in the middle of a horror movie. Yeah, such a jerk. Like, I can't wait till he dies because I know it's going to be something horrific. The Paul Manafort story has been there for me because just, like seeing him denied to wear a suit recently and, like, ill and clearly. Not healthy and just like, yeah, die in prison, Paul. I don't know. I'm violently angry about Paul Manafort. I spent time in Ukraine. Yeah. And I saw a lot. Like, Roger Stone's a ***** ** **** but, like, maybe this makes the episode weaker, but no one will ever match the hate that we do on this show that I have for Paul Manafort just deserve it. I mean, look how many millions he's literally responsible for. Millions and millions of deaths. Yeah. I mean, millions of deaths made a civil war going for a decade longer than I yeah. Yeah. Cancer Monthly, 5 or 600,000 deaths in that conflict alone. And for money. Yeah, for money. For money he didn't need. He had all the money he needed, he needed already. I could talk **** about that. No, no, no. I mean, I I get, I get really worked up when we talk about Manafort. But it's also worth noting that, like, there's almost a way you could say Roger Stone is even grosser because at least Paul Manafort was getting involved, was in the trenches dealing with those people. Roger Stone was just cashing their checks, just like, yeah, I don't give a **** where this money comes from. So you could say that's grosser. Yeah, you could say that's gross. Maybe it is now. Randy Credico was going to come back into the story a little bit later, but what's important right now is that Bruno fired Stone after this voicemail came out, you know? But Eliot Spitzer wound up going down anyway. It's kind of debatable as to whether or not it was Roger's dirty tricks that were responsible of it. There was a a federal wiretap in a New York Times report about him that revealed he'd been spending 10s of thousands of dollars in high-priced prostitutes. And his big thing was like he sleeps with prostitutes while wearing his socks. That's Roger stone. Right. That's a stone detail. Roger Stone repeated that detail to every newspaper in the *** **** world for months. It's very pretty, but it's very sticky. Has a really subtle understanding of how humanity works. Yeah, that's something that, like, even if I was that sort of a person, I wouldn't think that that detail would matter. He knew that it totally did. Yeah, and we don't even know him. Maybe he made that detail up. Maybe he just knew of that. Something that will stick in their heads. But I could also see that one being true because Eliot Spitzer undoubtedly. Was hanging out with a lot of prostitutes, which I wouldn't have an issue with if he hadn't been an attorney general and thus responsible for prosecuting prostitution in New York. But it's debatable. You'll hear people say that stone dropped the dime on Spitzer to the FBI, and that's why there was the investigation, and that's why everything came out that he did bus Spitzer this way. I haven't found hard proof of that. There was definitely a federal wiretap and a New York Times report about him. It's entirely possible that Roger Stone that his main contribution. Was dropping that story about the socks and that, like, he just sort of was like, oh, this is a happy accident. I really don't know. Yeah. But it seems pretty likely that he had a significant role in Spitzer's political downfall. That that does seem likely for sure. All the tales of Roger Stones Crapulence over the years prompted The New Yorker to write a profile of him in 2008. I think that article is the 1st place, at least the first major outlet where Roger started talking about what he called stones rules. These include such chunks of political wisdom. As he who speaks first loses, Attack Attack, attack, never defend, admit nothing, deny everything, launch, counter, attack. And when I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver. So. There was another one that there's a lot there. There's an endless number of the one that makes my skin crawl is that hate is a greater motivator than love, and that's the one that makes my skin crawl because that is the Trump campaign. Yeah. And every campaign he's been involved. I mean, that's fascism, man. Like, that's the core ideological. Not that I don't think Donald Trump is an ideological anything, but that is the core of that political philosophy is that hate and fear, hell of a lot more powerful than love. Although Hitler would have said no, it's the love of the Volcker, whatever that is. That I don't know. I'm gonna argue with dead Hitler here. Reasonable men and Hitler can disagree. I'll let you win. You win again against Ted. Hitler did Hitler. We all went against dead. We do. He's dead. We're still here and you're still here. You're stupid. Suck on that, Hitler. Yeah, with your baby mustache, you freak. Stupid mustache. I don't know, like I part of me wonders, like if Hitler hadn't ever been Hitler, would that mustache be around? Would like we all have a friend with. I think it would be back in East Hollywood, for sure. I feel like people dip their toes with the Hitler youth haircuts. They dip their toes. Shaved on the sides. Look is nice. Yeah, you can. It can work. It looks nice. It's a nice comeback. But yeah, it's baby mustache adjacent. It's baby mustache adjacent. I don't know. It's one of those things where, like, at the time it was like, this, we're way off topic, but that was considered like a working man's mustache. You don't have to groom it or anything. It's an honest man's mustache. And so that's kind of like what Hitler was repping to. Everyone is like, I'm just a normal working Joe like you. Yeah, I think that's the thing that he sees the way, like a great athlete or a great chef or a great artist can see things that normal people can't see. I think he sees these subtleties. He sees like, a naked man wearing socks and goes, that's not presidential. Yeah, that's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. That can hurt him. No one will take him seriously having this in their mind. I should shave my mustache so they look at me and say I'm one of them. Like, he's got that kind of eye. And if we're looking at what, is there some aspect of it? I I have. The part of me believes that. One, as prominent as someone like Roger Stone has become, there is an aspect of genius at play, just like there is with you have to Alex Jones. Yeah, you you have to. Otherwise they become too powerful. Yeah. You have to allow yourself to have a level of respect so you can figure out how to deconstruct them. And I think you've. I didn't really figure it out when I was writing this, but I think you've nailed what it is that his genius is is recognizing those. It's not the actual tricks he plays. It's knowing how to present things in a way that leave an indelible image in people's heads. Yeah. And I think the Spitzer thing, like, really focusing on those socks. That he's wearing all these ******* these call girls. I think that nails it. I think that's like what he's good at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'll that we'll actually be talking about some more stuff like that a little bit later. So yeah, Roger Stone starts in like the early 2000s talking about stones rules all the time. Every interview he does, he'll drop the rules. You know, this is my rule. Here is my rule here. This is my trying to brand himself. Here's a quote from The New Yorker. His outfit comported with two of the rules in his book stones rules for war, politics, food, fashion and living, which he hopes to publish soon. Never wear a double breasted suit in a button down collar and white. I just love the idea that it's like such a Michael Scott thing to do is have the name of a book that you haven't written that you talked to an interviewer about. That's amazing. Yeah, Michael scarn. That was just like, because I started looking up that book and I was like, oh, he hadn't written that with this came out. He was just trying to make it a thing. I am proud to say on behalf of Roger, that he did eventually write kind of that book. It wasn't the same title, but you can buy it. You know, stones rules how to win at politics, business and style from the Infowar store right now. Unbelievable. Yeah. It currently has 12 reviews, so wow. Could really be on the ground. Very low ground floor. This is the copy of the front and he's covering his weird bird. Lips. Yeah, he's covering his weird bird lips. He's got like his got like his hand at his at his lips or something. Yeah, he's he really. I think he's trying to cover those jowls or something. Interesting choice that he would cover up half his face. Such an arrogant man. It shows you he's simultaneously arrogant and insecure. Nobody who's that obsessed with fashion can be secure in their persons. I agree. Nobody who ******* worries about what their suspenders are called as secure in their physical form. He's he's the opposite of the cat that stays in the mirror that sees a lion. Yeah, he's a lion that stares in a mirror and sees a cat. The little baby kitten. He's so weak. Yeah. That's what all this peacocking is, like, like an old lady that used to be really sexy and and wears a miniskirt and you're like, that's not you. This guy's 66 and he still calls himself a quote UN quote tough guy. Well, and it's like, he also needs to be attached to some bigger man. He doesn't. He doesn't do anything on his own because he's. He's the kitten. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whether or not it's Alex Jones or Donald Trump, he's always attached to somebody. Exactly. He's the sidekick. Yeah, he's kind of like a chronic, sleazy sidekick of right wing firebrand. Exactly. Weird. Like, if Darth Vader had a talk show, he'd be evil Ed McMahon? Yeah, yeah, he yeah, that's about right. Yeah. Now, that 2008 New Yorker interview also revealed that Roger Stone had, in 2007, gotten a photo accurate back tattoo of the head of his hero, Richard Nixon. The article also noted that stone tans 12 months a year and drinks four triple espressos every day. Stone talked about his recent move to Miami, saying it's a sunny place for shady people. Yeah, that's a good quote. Wow. He's the man could turn a phrase every now he really can. That was. That's a good one. It is a good one. Yeah. And, you know, he was an actor for a while in high school. No, I didn't even run across. Yeah, he's an he was an actor for a short time in high school. And when he got into politics, he he said this. He said. I then realized that. Acting in politics were the same. Ohh, feel like a lot of people have had that experience, now more than ever with the transparency of the Internet. Creating. I mean, ******* Ronald Reagan. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, Rd bedtime for Bonzo. Right to the Oval Office. Let's just make it stop before the rock. That's all I want. You know what? Again, not the worst case scenario anymore. Sure, I've had enough, Crawford. Why not? Can you smell what the president is cooking? I can't take that. Wouldn't it be soothing to just have a nice person in there? Yeah, I mean, maybe the I'm sure the climate will continue its unheated acceleration into in sustainable, like, like greenhouse nightmare, but at least the president could be friendly. I just. I think that should be the minimum requirement. We should have someone who's character is at a level that we just go, OK, this is a decent human being who is at least trying for the good of the country, like Jimmy Carter, and actually like no one else. Like Jimmy Carter. Well, at least he's a nice person. Not a great president, but well. OK, so we are going to continue talking about Roger Stone and get into his downfall. I think it's fair to say downfall. I agree. Which is going to be the most satisfying, cathartic part of this podcast. Amen. But first, you know what's even more cathartic than the downfall of a monster? Tell me. I was just thinking about catharsis, wonderful services and products that are provided by the advertisements in front of products. OK. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. His unspeakable crimes and the incompetence or unwillingness of the police to stop him brought the entire country of Belgium to the brink of revolution. Yep. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio this is la Monstra. A story of abomination and conspiracy that led to the demise of the entire institution of Belgian federal police and rattled the foundations of its government. The story about the man who simply become known as La Monstre. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up you guys? It's your girl Betty who here? And you know this about me. It has always been very important to me to stand out and be authentically me, not only with my music, but my style and my vibe. And JBL really gets that. 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And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Revisionist history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. We're back, listeners. While those wonderful ads that you were spending your money on were running, we started to suspect that Roger Stones greatest crime. It may in fact have been appropriate in the phrase it's a sunny place for shady people from someone else. We found a sunglasses line and a book, although the book came out after that interviewed it, so it's hard to say Roger may have stolen that line from someone. Sophie's going to do that research and we'll we'll get back to you or not if nothing interesting. Comes up, we won't get back to you and pretend this didn't happen anyway. So in 2008 when he was doing that interview, it was not a great time to be a Republican in politics. You know, Barack Obama had just kind of bum rushed the McCain campaign. You know, it didn't look like the Republicans were going to be back in power for a little while. A black man beat a white war hero, beat a white war hero and whatever Sarah Palin is. And yeah, it was, it was looking like a rough time for Republican political operative. So in that interview, Roger Stone noted, quote, the left has done a better job of dominating the new space. We're weak on the web. So little foreshadowing there. Yeah, question about the McCain campaign. Roger Stone advised, quote, a Nixonian slash and burn campaign against Barack Obama. Obama and his wife are elitists and they're weak. They don't share middle class values. Middle class Americans are proud of their country and they are not. He thinks he's going to sit down with Iran and Hamas. How do you know he's not going to shake hands with the suicide bomber? You can't sit down with people who don't want to sit down. All he's going to do is raise taxes. Which is going to give the government more money, but it's not going to create any jobs, remember? Stone said politics is not about uniting people, it's about dividing people and getting your 51%. Wow, that's Roger Stone and Paul Manafort and ************* nutshell. You know what? It might be his own thirst for attention, the attention he never got from his dad. That's going to be his downfall because he's he can't not speak to the press. He's underestimating people. Yeah, he even though he said he said this plenty of times, that his target audience is not the elite, that is not the sophisticated. It's not people who who study or read up on politics. But now he's underestimating their ability to read things about him. And for them to still be hypnotized. So here he kind of spinning off of that. I'm not sure if it's him underestimating them or if it's a fundamental he can't understand. Politics is not about politics to him it's about the same thing a game of Monopoly is when you get into a really into a game of monopoly. And so he is incapable of realizing like no Roger the things that you are doing have are impacting people's lives and horrible negative ways. When you get these politicians and they they put in these these short sighted policies that **** ** and you know lead to. All the terrible things that these different politicians you've supported over the years have done, like when these things impact people's lives, they get angry. And then they hear you talking about, like, dividing people. And they're like, I can't talk to half my family. We're all screaming at each other. And like you, you can't understand what it's like to be in that situation. Because none of this means that to you, this is where the United States of America and to hear like a, a campaign manager or a political strategist for the President of the United States of America. His tactic was to divide. Yeah. A country whose foundation was about uniting. Yeah. It's just so heartbreaking. Well, it's one of those things you couldn't until recently get away with. Like you remember when Barack Obama was running and he made that comment about people clinging to their guns and their Bibles. That was a huge. I was still very much in the right wing media bubble at that point in time in my life. And that was a huge issue with people being like, and there's good reason to be ****** about that if you're, if you're a Bible believing Christian, if you're someone who grew up shooting and has done that your whole life and live in a place where, like, yeah, that's an offensive thing. Stereotype. And he had, he had to address that ****. And any presidential candidate up until 2016 would have had to face consequences for a statement like that. A guy like Roger Stone has never had to because he's not a candidate ever, and it's almost never transparent who he's advising. And so he's never had to be that careful, which I think we're getting the part of the story where that bites him in the ***. Yeah. Yeah. So it's worth noting before we move on from the 2008 that during that election he formed the group Citizens United. Not timid to oppose Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign. Literal acronym, ****. Yeah, nice guy, Roger. Now, in 2010, two years into Eliot Spitzer's political exile, Roger Stone struck again after being laid off. He'd apparently found another set of backers, wealthy Republicans, his description, who paid him to make sure Spitzer's political career stayed dead. And this is where, you know, after Spitzer was already at. This is where he started talking about the socks. Like this is where he started spreading that myth. And he claims that he was like, at an adult club and met a girl who was friends with a girl who worked with Spencer, and she told him the story. It's a little believable. It's like I was talking to my prostitute friend and she said this is how silly this. And she this is 2 years after Spitzer's out as governor because he's already been disgraced. Yeah, yeah, so unbelievable. Yeah. Anyway, Roger Stone seems to have grown less cautious and careful in his golden years. Maybe it's the corrupting influence of social media, but over the last decade he's racked up a pretty horrifying compilation of sexist remarks. Here's media matters. Stone tweeted that New York Times columnist GAIL Collins is an elitist **** MSNBC host Rachel Maddow is Rachel the **** ***** Fox News's Megyn Kelly has a nice set of cans, and representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz is a *** acronym for Jewish American Princess. He thought that was going to be one kind of racist, but with another who is every man's first wife. He also tweeted Diebitsch at former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson and said he would kill himself if he was married to screechy and chill Carly Fiorina, the Sun Sentinel. Also reported that stone called Florida politician Barbara Stern a self important nasty **** on Twitter. So lest I leave the impression that Roger's bigotry is limited to women, here's a bunch of racist stuff he said. Stones tweets include attacks like stupid ***** fat ***** arrogant. Know it all. ***** Uncle Tom, Mandingo, and House *****. Stone tweeted that commenter Roland Martin is a stupid ***** and a fat ***** commentator Herman Cain is a Mandingo and former representative Allen W is an arrogant. Know it all, *****. He also tweeted that commentator Al Sharpton is a professional ***** who likes fried chicken. Asked if former Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson was an uncle Tom and referred to himself as an inward with a Nixon tattoo, he did not use the phrase inward. That was an uncomfortable paragraph to state, but this is all stuff Roger Stone said mostly about Republicans like crazy. He's just. No filter. They rejected him. Yeah. They reject the mainstream ones did. Yeah, mainstream Republicans rejected him and he's attacking. He's he's a hurt man. Yeah, he's a he's a hurt man. And in 2014, he got his chance to push and pain back out into the world. That is the year when Donald Trump began to execute his campaign run for president. Now, Roger Stone was reportedly Donald Trump's number one consultant for the early stages of his bid, according to Joshua Green. The author of Devil's Bargain, a book about the election quote inside Trump Circle, the power of illegal immigration to manipulate popular sentiment was readily apparent, and his advisers brainstormed methods for keeping their attention addled. Boss on message. They needed a trick and harmonic device. In the summer of 2014, they found one that clicked. According to Sam Nunberg, who worked with Trump during this. Roger Stone and I came up with the idea of the wall and we talked to Steve Bannon about it. It was to make sure Trump talked about immigration. Initially, Trump seemed indifferent to the idea, but in January? 2015 he tried it out at the Iowa Freedom Summit, a presidential cattle call put on by David Bossie, group Citizens United. One of his pledges was, I will build a wall and the place just went nuts. Wow, that's what you're talking about. It's like with the socks, right? Your nose. That's something that will stick in people's. Exactly. You got to drive that. I think that is his major contribution to percent, 100%. That's why even when he's fired, people keep him. So Roger Stone stole his catch phrase about Florida from a a 1941. Level. Oh, in Somerset mall on. Yeah. Or mongan. I don't know to pronounce it, but I've seen that name before. Wow. Yet another crime uncovered, you shady *** ** * *****. So, hey, you know what's funny too? This is almost like when you go to jail and you don't want anybody to mess with you, so you just throw human poop on you. Yeah, and everyone scared to touch you. I think he plays so dirty and so gross that people are like, I know he's doing something illegal, but I don't want to fight with him because he fights like a homeless person. Yeah, he's going to bite. And scratch and stab and she he's it's it's so bizarre how broken this guy. I didn't think during this conversation I would actually feel sorry for this guy, but that's what I do. There's a deep core of sadness, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes clear the more you dig into like, what he's done his whole life. I mean that's the justice he wants us to think he's strong, even calls himself a bodybuilder and and tattoos of man's face on his back that he thinks is strong. And really, he's just this insecure. Week. Broken, broken little boy. Yeah, yeah, they all are at some. Yeah. Yeah. Now stones time with the Trump campaign did not last all that long. In August of 2015, after a performance in one of the Republican primary debates that was wrongly considered to be disastrous for the Trump campaign. You remember that? Yeah. Roger quit or was fired. Roger claims he quit. At least. Trump says that he fired Roger. And Roger says that he quit and basically fired Trump from anyway. It's. Who knows? They each thought he was getting too much airtime for Trump's taste, but wasn't that the hypothesis? That might be part of it. It might also be that after that, Roger also thought that things were going badly with the campaign and didn't want to, like, be attached to it anymore because it looked bad back then for Trump. Nobody was guessing. Yeah, Republicans were screaming, get Trump out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people were angry. So that may have been why that happened. He was trying to anyway. This was not the end of the stone Trump relationship, though, according to one version of events at least. Roger stone. Responsible for hooking Donald Trump up with Paul Manafort, who at that point lived in a Trump Tower but did not actually know Donald. Well, some people say that stone is the guy who pushed Manafort on Trump, basically in order to give himself an in with the campaign that he'd probably been fired from. If true, this would be an appropriate reversal of Roger's agreement to act as Manafort's proxy in the young Republicans so many years before. It's a nice little bit of symmetry, and it would be nice if the only person either of them is capable of doing a single altruistic thing for is the other, if like the one nice thing. Paul Manafort ever did was for Roger Stone and vice versa. Yeah. Like it's funny, you know, I think when Manafort got hired, I think in the documentary, it was a stone who quoted he his quote when Manafort got hired was back in the saddle again. Yeah, like, I'm back. He knew that was his way back into the campaign. Yeah. And it does seem like, and we'll see how things go now, but it seems like for a while, the two were pretty good at being solid with each other. You know, they backstab a lot of other people, but they were usually on the same side of things. Yeah, when they were both involved in the same thing, some of that may be that Manafort was really more overseas, you know, after like the 80s particularly, but it's like an episode of Survivor, but in DC. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of, that's kind of the point of Union and then attack everybody else. Yeah, just Roger Stone and Paul Manafort against the world. The only smart member of that group in the long term turned out to be black, who has just got rich and decided not to commit more crimes. Oh boy. Now, most of what we are going to talk about from here on out, Roger Stones relationship with WikiLeaks and the possibly criminal behavior he engaged in on behalf of the Trump campaign. All of this is very controversial. We don't know exactly what happened yet because obviously the Mueller report's not out. There are competing versions of events and competing suspicions of how things went down. One thing that is crystal clear about this time is that Roger Stone was instrumental in bringing Alex Jones and Donald Trump together, which again, that's why I brought up the stuff about. Years these early, he's always had that thing. And starting in about 2013, he and Alex Jones start being buddies and eventually becomes like, he's an Infowars employee for like the last three years. Wow. So he's he's like hosting a show, he's a reporter there, he's making probably 2025 grand a month. And I do want to, I want to plug quickly here knowledge fight, the podcast that talks about Alex Jones shows, just did a fantastic episode on all of this. Yeah, if you go to knowledge fights website and knowledge fight or just look them up on on Google knowledge fight. Of the January 25th, 2019 episode, they go into a lot more granular detail about this than we're going to because we're kind of covering this whole life they focus more on. His shadiness with WikiLeaks, it's great. I really recommend it. But yeah, so it's unclear when exactly Alex and Roger became friends, but it's very clear that Roger was the reason that Donald Trump sort of got keyed into the fact that Infowars existed at all. I don't think Donald Trump was listening to a lot of Infowars in the 90s or whatever. Now in December of 2015, Donald Trump showed up on Infowars and praised Alex Jones as having an amazing reputation as the 2016 election picked up steam stone. Became a more frequent guest on Infowars. On August 4th, 2016, he showed up as a guest on the Infowars radio show. At this point Alex Jones was telling his listeners that Hillary Clinton was about to resign as a presidential candidate under the shame of a massive criminal indictment. Now at this point a number of hacked DNC emails had already been released via WikiLeaks. Stone claimed on air on August 4th to know about the upcoming release of more hacked DNC emails on WikiLeaks. He also claimed to have spoken with Donald Trump on August 3rd, more recent releases as part of the Mueller investigation. Have shown that on the 4th, the same day Stone was on Infowars, he emailed Trump adviser Sam Nunberg and told him he'd had dinner with Julian Assange the night before, which if you're keeping track, would be the same day he claimed to have met with Trump. Well. When we talk about evidence of collusion, there is some definitely Speaking of collusion. This podcast colludes with a number of fantastic sponsors that help keep the lights on and allow us to do this show. So please collude with us in bringing you this information by colluding with capitalism to purchase products. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. His unspeakable crimes and the incompetence or unwillingness of the police to stop him brought the entire country of Belgium to the brink of revolution. From Tenderfoot TV in iHeartRadio this is la Monstra. The story of abomination and conspiracy that led to the demise of the entire institution of Belgian federal police and rattled the foundations of its government. Story about the man who simply become known as La Monstre. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up you guys? It's your girl Betty who here? And you know this about me. It has always been very important to me to stand out and be authentically me, not only with my music, but my style and my vibe. And JBL really gets that. They know your headphones and speakers should look as original as the music you're listening to, or in my case, making. That's why I'm obsessed with my JBL headphones and speakers that help me reflect who I really am, from true wireless headphones to pulsing party boxes. Ohh yeah, party boxes guys. JBL has a wide and colourful range of products that help me feel myself when I wanna vibe my way. I literally record this entire podcast on my favorite JBL headphones. They are absolutely incredible. So JBL wants us all to listen on our terms living in the moment. Our moment unfiltered. The JBL podcast at jbl.com. This fall on revisionist history, is there anything that we haven't talked about? I should have asked you if you'd like to add that seems relevant. You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Religious history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Alright, we're back and we are talking about Roger Stone on the 2016 election now. Over the course of 2016, Roger Stone repeatedly played the role of Hype man for WikiLeaks release of Democratic campaign documents as well as Clinton adviser John Podesta's emails. On August 21st he tweeted, trust me, it will soon be time in the barrel. Hashtag crooked Hillary. Shortly thereafter, WikiLeaks published a cache of John Podesta's leaked emails. Roger frequently spoke on Infowars. Wrote articles on Breitbart Pooh Poohing the idea that Russia had anything to do with all these hacks and pushing the narrative that Guccifer 2.0, the person behind the DNC hacks, was an independent activist, a hero in stones telling, and not an agent of the Russian government. Now, on election night 2016, Roger Stone celebrated with his good buddy Alex Jones. The two drank champagne and saluted the dawn of a brave new era. But for Roger, and probably for Alex too, the end of the fun Times was finally nigh. Donald Trump's upset victory got a lot of people to start looking much more. Closely on whether or not there had been any collusion with WikiLeaks or the Russian government within the Trump campaign, it quickly became apparent that Guccifer 2.0 was in fact a Russian operative. He ****** ** and gave investigators the digital equivalent of DNA evidence that he was a spy. And of course, later leaked chat logs revealed that Roger Stone had been communicating with him. Same thing happened with WikiLeaks. It's again still a little bit unclear exactly how all of this maps out. It it seems like what happened is Roger Stone. Communicating with a guy named Jerome Corsi, who was one of the major origin points for like, the birther ******** myth thing and who also had connections with WikiLeaks. And that was his go between, and he was sort of working directly with WikiLeaks that way. And he definitely, there's also been reports that he was sort of selling himself to the Trump campaign since he'd been kicked out as an adviser, as a liaison to WikiLeaks and was coordinating with the campaign, probably with Steve Bannon. That's what it looks like was happening, although again, it's not exactly known. So it looks like, yeah, Roger Stone. Is working directly with Jerome Corsi as well as communicating with WikiLeaks one-on-one and communicating with the goose for 2.0 in order to sort of coordinate the release of leaked documents with you know the the the presidential campaign to hurt Hillary Clinton now when all of this became the biggest news story in the country, which has been for more or less the last 2 years. Roger suddenly started claiming that he had not in fact had direct contact with WikiLeaks or Assange? Which of course, multiple times during the election he had talked about on like radio shows and podcasts? Talking with WikiLeaks and stuff. But he had not been consistent about this. But he suddenly started lying once the Mueller investigation kicked up and began claiming that rather than talking directly with WikiLeaks or communicating and like colluding like through with Jerome Corsi, his contact with WikiLeaks, he hadn't been colluding with him directly. They just had a friend in common and stone claimed that that friend was Randy Credico now, which again is the exact same thing he did when he got caught the last time he did something. Pulp Fiction. The way these characters come back around. Hmm. Now, Stone testified to the House Intelligence Committee in 2017 that this was the case, and the recent indictment handed down by Bob Mueller makes it clear that this was yet another lie. Stone was charged with witness tampering for telling Credico things like Stonewall. It plead the 5th anything to save the plan. That's a Richard Nixon quote, by the way. So when you know basically stone lies and says that Credico is his source to WikiLeaks and he's telling Credico, keep this lie. Going when you get in front of the the the House Intelligence Committee and his way to tell him to commit this federal crime is to send him a quote of Nixon telling someone to commit a federal crime. That was one of the things that Nixon got caught doing and is why he got impeached. It's really funny because he also always says history is prologue. Yeah, Shakespeare past is prologue, past is prologue. And and in The Tempest in the Shakespeare speech when the guy was saying the character was saying I remember the character, but when he was saying that it was a way. To excuse murder. Hmm. This freaking guy. Like, his code words are like so easy to decipher. Yeah, his coward. And this is literally another guy committing the same crime he's committed exactly like he's such a dummy Rocher. Don't use that. Don't commit crimes through. What's this is a different jump that he's made though than the past. Yeah, and this is a lot Dumber. In the past he also said things like if you turned over anything to the FBI, you're a fool. He threatened Credico service dog Bianca, saying he would take that dog away from you. You are a rat, a stoolie. You backstab your friends run your mouth. My lawyers are dying to rip you to shreds. I'm so ready. Let's get it on. Prepare to die. Expletive. Now, it's worth noting that when question about this by Mother Jones, Roger Stone stated that his words were being taken out of context. And when he said prepare to die, ************ he had meant that, you know, Credico was dealing with cancer. Like they should. Just really bad lies, Roger. So he says something that's even worse. Like, Ohh, I don't mean I'm gonna kill him. I mean you guys. Yeah. And I'm gonna remind him of that. Yeah, because I'm a prick. But I'll take his dog. Jesus, Roger. It's so funny, too, because at first I went, oh, OK, this guy doesn't even like animals. He's he's * ****. And then the very next week when the FBI raided his home, he's like, they upset my wife. They upset my dogs. He's apparently a dog lover, which, you know, a lot of people are. He didn't say I'll kill your dog. So maybe he was just threatening to abduct a man service animal. Fair enough, fair enough. Like, you know, what's different now is the old campaign was all live by any means necessary. I'll do whatever I need to do to have this side of the country win now. He's like, I don't care if it's another country that wants as long as I don't get in trouble. Long as I don't get in trouble. So before it was like, I'll have the conservative side versus the liberal side. Now it's like I'll have an enemy of the nation. Yeah, this guys he's gone from from a corrupt person to a traitor. Yeah. And and to a traitor who, like in the months leading up to this on Infowars, would regularly urge President Trump to essentially assume dictatorial powers and shut down the FBI investigation and stuff. And it's like, that's a line. Roger that's real is the question. For a lot of people, they're like, for an outsider, Trump really knows how to play the game. Trump doesn't know how to play the game. He just knows how to find shady people in sunny places who know how to play the game. Knows when to listen and when you're in real estate, nobody cares because everyone in the real estate business is a criminal and it's fine. We're fine with that for some reason. Not my realtor in Long Beach. Susie. Thanks, Susie. Sorry for trying to mustache on your memo notepad that I got for free. She's strangling a dog right now. Oh, real estate agents, hit us up on Twitter. Real estate agents, tell us about your favorite crimes that you've committed. You're all Nazis. You're all Nazis. All real estate agents are Nazis. That is the stance of this podcast. Now, enough of the claims Roger Stone made before Congress were proven false that he has been charged with at least five counts of making false statements during his testimony. And this is, in fact, other than witness tampering like this, that's all of the indictments so far have been like you lied and you threatened to somebody. It was going out like a federal witness, but which you can't do now. It appears that the main downfall for Roger Stone that got him busted by the FBI was his unjustified trust in the program WhatsApp. Here's a quote from Ars Technica quote he believed that WhatsApp, which he used as a secure phone line and for messaging, would protect his communications from the eyes of investigators, forgetting that the people he was talking to could just show the messages to Mueller's team at a grand jury. He also left an e-mail trail of his alleged misdeeds seemingly spanning. Mile wide after WikiLeaks released emails stolen from the Democratic National Committee on July 22nd, 2016 quote, a senior Trump campaign official was directed to contact Stone about any additional releases and what other damaging information WikiLeaks had regarding the Clinton campaign, the indictment states. In return, Stone reached out to multiple associates in an attempt to communicate with WikiLeaks and Julian Assange and obtain further Clinton related emails. On July 25th, 2016 Stoney mailed Corsi. The subject line was get to Julian Assange and the message read get to Julian Assange. Ecuadorian embassy in London and get the pending WikiLeaks emails they deal with foundation allegedly. Really? Just don't leave text evidence of your crimes. Yeah, everywhere, Roger. I'm glad he did, though. And then threaten the people who you have an equal copy of all of the evidence of your crimes. Don't do that. You know, as a kid, once I I killed a cockroach, and I left his body there for the other cockroaches to see. Yeah. And that's what I want him to be. Yeah. I want him to be that cockroach. I want him to be a cautionary tale. I'm glad he's getting caught. I want him and Manafort. I want a lot of cockroaches. Yeah. Strung up on a lot of walls because I'm worried about the what they're inspiring. You know what I mean? That's why they've gotta get. And then that's why whenever people, it's the same reason like whenever people are like some 96 year old Nazi gets found out and they're like trying to extradite him to Germany and people like, well, he's 96, I'm like, no, take him to court. Let him die on a plane, make it, make it miserable. Make everyone else know. This is what happens when you do crimes like this. Like, we'll get you eventually. Yeah. Yeah. Now this is the point at which I think we finally get an answer to. The running question for this whole episode is Roger Stone. Actually a political mastermind and evil genius? Or did he just associate himself with a successful people and do a good job of hyping up his BS contributions? His behavior in 2018 was definitely the behavior of a cornered man growing increasingly panicked about coming legal smackdowns his appearances on Infowars grew more common. He would regularly attack the Mueller investigation as being part of a deep state cabal, and frequently begged President Trump to make use of extreme executive powers to fire Rod Rosenstein and shut the whole thing down. It also seems, to me at least, that Stone's rhetoric grew more apocalyptic as the news. Heightened here's a clip from him. In late 2018, you will have a spasm of violence in this country. An insurrection like you've never seen. You see? No question. You think he got impeached? Like the the country sides are heavily armed, my friend. Yes, absolutely. This is not 1974. They the people will not stand for impeachment. A politician who votes for it would be endangering their own life. There will be violence on both sides. Yeah. Threatening people. He's threatening an apocalyptic. Beautiful water. And saying any politician who voted for it would have their lives threatened. Yeah, yeah, it's he's sending. Those are dog whistle messages. He's sending threats. Those are threats. It's not even done. It's a ******* pigs ear throwing right at like a bunch of. I don't know how to finish that analogy, but you get my point. Most of stones media appearances over the last year seem to have been a way for him to advertise his GO fund me Legal Defense fund. This fund has raised so far about $78,000 in the month it's been up. Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign adviser and friend of Roger Stone, actually started the campaign. He claims that stone has lost everything in the ongoing legal battle. Politico noted that the month before, Stone posted an Instagram picture of himself on a beach smoking a cigar and wearing designer sunglasses. So probably a lie like everything else Roger Stones ever said. One group, at least, has stuck with Roger Stone in the wake of his indictment and arrest the proud boys. Stone started using them as personal security for events in 2017 and eventually went through what they called their first degree initiation. He chose Cinco de Mayo was the day to do this, and their whole initiation is around like, claiming that, like, I'm not going to apologize for creating the world as a Western man. I don't know. I don't think it's a coincidence that he picked Cinco de Mayo. I think they're just anything they can do to be little bit more racist just because even even the idea of a white race is a lie. Yeah, there is no white race. It was a construct. No, no such thing. Hang out with a Russian. Hang with an Irishman. It's not the same thing. And the and the proud boys are a little smarter than talking about the white race. They claim Western civilization. That's their catch all. Because then you don't have to all be white, but you can still essentially stand welcome to embrace your Middle Eastern side because that's what Iran is. Iran is supposed to be the birth place of the real white people. That's why it sounds like Arian. It's Iran. So fun. So get your white loafers out and your Capri one. Hundreds. Yeah, and start calling people, my friend. If you really want to be the origin of white. Ohh man. And get way better at cooking lamb. Way better at cooking lamb. We cannot cook a *** **** lamb in this country to save our lives. It's just it's a trick. It's all a trick. It's when a powerful white man tells a poor white man that he's just like him. It's hypnotizing. Well, that's exactly Roger Stone talks about it as a young man being like, I'm going to be the bridge between working class white people and rich white people. That's exactly what he's always been about. Yeah. So of course he would like the proud. One prominent proud boy is currently selling Roger Stone did nothing wrong T-shirts. When he was arraigned last Monday, several proud boys provided an escort and chanted their vocal support of the man. We haven't talked much about Roger Stone style obsession in this podcast. I just it it's not really funny. Like, I read a bunch of what he wrote. It's just like pretentious stuff for people who care about suits and whatnot, which, if that's your thing, that's fine. Sure, everybody's got to have a thing, but there is a way in which that became a source of some schadenfreude for me, starting, I think, in the 1990s. One became increasingly enamored with ostentatious outfits, generally dressing like someone who lives to fight Batman. He became the daily callers men style correspondent and also writes A10 best and worst dressed list every year. And most of these columns stones header image is a picture of himself dressed as and wielding a gun. Like James Bond, he clearly views himself as a slick, ****** political operator and wants others to see him that way too. That reputation has been punctured by a long series of dumb mistakes, many of them in his appearances on Infowars mistakes like claiming exiled Chinese businessmen grow. When we had been convicted of financial crimes and donated illegally to Hillary Clinton and Steve Bannon, now this was true. Stone and Infowars were sued for $100 million. And last year Roger Stone was forced to make an on air public apology for having failed to do proper research. He's almost 70. Yeah, that's what I keep reminding myself the way he behaves. He's a grandfather. He is a grandfather. He's almost 70 and this is how he acts, this is how he behaves, this is the philosophy he has that he's a spy and a *** *** and uses all this tough guy. Language. And really, he's the one who sees himself naked and weak and his bones getting softer and his muscles starting to sag. He he can't beat time. No, nobody can. Nobody can. Ohk makes me so well, Patrick Stewart. But other than Patrick, you know what? Nobody can have? He's really nailed time. Hate may be a greater motivator, but love makes your skin look better when you get older. Yeah, man, he looks so good. He looks great. Yeah. Yeah. Now, despite all of Roger Stone's claims to being a sly. *** *** brilliant. Nixonian style political operator Roger Stone has proven to just be a bad criminal who got lucky for a while. He's not a ****** he's just bad. In the wake of his indictment, Roger Stone has whined incessantly about having roughly as much force used against him in his apprehension as a small time pot dealer in Texas, Stone complained that he wasn't called ahead of time to give him a chance to dress up and look his best for his the cameras. Instead, he was photographed in a simple blue polo shirt. When he was released later that day, he had to give his press conference looking like a normal elderly man and not the Penguin. It is a moment of great Schadenfreude for me, and we are going to in the episode by playing the clip of his press conference. I love it and arrested. I love it. Define schadenfreude. What's shaden taking pleasure in the misfortune of others? I like German. I like that word. Yeah, it's a great word. Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude. Thank you, Roger. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. As I have always said, the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. Two year inquisition. The charges today relate in no way to Russian collusion, WikiLeaks collaboration, or any other illegal act in connection with the 2016 campaign. I am falsely accused of making false statements during my testimony to the House Intelligence Committee. That is incorrect. Any any error I made in my testimony would be both. Immaterial and without intent. Alright, I want that on my iTunes. Yeah, it's it feels good, right? It feels good. It's like a little squeegee for your soul. So it makes me believe in God and Santa Claus. Lock him up. Lock him up. Sounds. Oh, it's so nice. It's like a pizza after smoking weed. Yeah, so satisfying. I'm not normally a big fan of chanting as part of a crowd, but that would have been a fun crowd to chant as part of believe me as an Arab in America. The only time. The only time I like people chanting. Let's say USA. USA during the Olympics. Yeah, outside of that, I'm like, chanting. Lock him up at Roger Stone, man. Oh, it's so good. It's like emotional bubble. Wrap this one. Oh, so please eat it all. Yeah, man, does all that down. Give me the bread to SOP up the sauce. Yeah, yeah, that tastes good. That tastes good at the end of this, this gross tail. So, Gordon Fraser, schadenfreude. Schadenfreude, yeah. Taking pleasure. Pleasure in the misfortune of others I like. Great German words. Great word. Yeah, they're they're really great at making single words for things. Although this is like the joy of seeing justice. Yeah, there's a little bit like it. This is justified. The beginning of it anyway. Yeah. It's the start of a process of justice that hopefully leads to him dying in a cell. Yeah, I'm a big believer in rehabilitation, but if you're 70 and doing the **** Roger Stone's been doing for the last couple of years, I couldn't agree more. Probably not going to get rehabbed. I absolutely agree. Not allowed in society anymore. Yeah. Seemingly Paul manafort. You know, if you're if you're crime is selling drugs or even beating someone, even even accidentally killing an individual, even killing someone in in the in the throes of a sudden rage. I believe in some sort of like, rehabilitation for you. But if your crime is conspiring to thwart the liberty of millions of people around the world, I don't believe in rehabilitating that 100% agree, 100% it's a it's a. Crazy thing to see someone who came that way, like, I, you know, I I came from a dad that was abusive and he had PTSD from war, and it had a drinking problem. He had everything against him. But I could always look back and say I I understand the dynamics of abuse. I understand that he was abused, too. And then the guy that bit him was like a vampire. And then I had to go to therapy so I could be like one of the vampires on twilight. Like, there was a sure, there was a cause, there was an origin, and that's why you're great at baseball. Yeah, exactly. But with him, you just look at this and I still, at the end of it, even if there's satisfaction, I just go, why, yeah. It's a sad story. Yeah. Is it usually is with these guys. Yeah. Yeah. And there's really like, it's a man who I don't think ever had anything at the center of himself that he was proud of. So he was proud of his ability to do things for other people he admired, whether or not at first, people who didn't know him, like when he's he's. Lying about Nixon to so that he can get, you know, his class to vote for JFK. And then he gradually gets like the first one of these guys that he works for that he gets anywhere close to Richard Nixon. He just loves the rest of his life because Nixon spent time with him, like he wasn't a part of Nixon's staff, but they like hung out together and stuff. And so I really do. You see, he doesn't say a lot about it other than like fawning praise for nation, but you see pictures of Nixon and Roger Stone and he very much has that doting son looking 100% and even his office is like. Like a a shrine shrine to Richard Nixon. Nixon. It's so crazy it even be one thing like a guy like LBJ who like killed a lot of people in Vietnam, but you could also be like, well, but then there's the Civil Rights Act and like, I can see how someone could like, even with this guy's really problematic legacy, I could see how someone who worked for him could be still loyal to that memory. Nixon and and some of the stuff. And some of the stuff he kept was like neg anti Nixon stuff that shows he just doesn't care about. He just. The way Nick wanted talked about. Yeah, he just wants attention because, again, his parents, whenever. I don't know, there's always a thin line in this show between trying to give it a detailed history of these people and psychoanalyzing them. If you can't avoid it entirely, though, when you read quotes, like how Roger describes his childhood and then just see what his adult life is, I mean, his life couldn't have been easy. He was a child with doll hair. Yeah, that is. That is a child bodybuilder with a Nixon tattoo. Child bodybuilder. I just imagine a shrunk version of him. That's it. He's always been that guy. He was always had that tattoo on his back, even he was breastfeeding. You know, one of the great forever untold stories of history will be the sheer impact and damage that insecure male egos have had in our society. Even in places where you wouldn't expect it, you wouldn't expect Dwight D Eisenhower didn't give off a lot of impulses, of being an insecure man. But then you see what he was doodling when we overthrew Guatemala, when he heard that, like, he'd successfully instituted a coup. In this country. And he drew a picture of himself, young and swole, like, muscular, next to a battleship, flexing. And it's like, yeah, dude, you had some issues. That's not normal. That's weird, dude. Our whole lives we hear how how hard it is for women that they lose their beauty, but we don't talk about fading power. Yeah, you know, like, I grew up in a really rough neighborhood, nice to be a scary looking guy. And I'm sleeved and tattoos, but I'm a nicer person now, and I go to go to therapy. The. But the one thing I miss is when I walk down the street that people move away from me because you're like, you're big and. Yeah and stuff. Yeah, there's something about that. As much as I hated who I was back then, I missed that feeling. Yeah, being a human Pitbull, there's not a lot of training in our society for young men to get used to the fact that they will someday not have the kind of physical power they have. Something I really admired my grandpa for. My grandpa was a really big guy. 6 foot, 5-6 foot 6, something like that. And he was he was military most of his life. Yeah. Fought in Korea, was like a very big, very imposing man. But the last. 10 or 15 years of his life. He was just completely debilitated with Parkinson's. Couldn't really move, but I never got never ever, ever. Of all the of the emotions that I saw from him, none of them was anger. None of them was like lashing out at people over the fact that I could tell he was frustrated, obviously, and not being able to control his body anymore. And I don't think a guy like Roger Stone or a guy like Dwight D Eisenhower or whatever, I don't think, I don't think they got that at any point. That attitude of like, OK, you were going to be able to control the world around you less as you get older because that's just life. And that's why we have society and civilization. We all work together to take care of each other because when we get weaker, we need more help. You know, they don't get that. And that's where libertarians come from. There's dangerous language in our society. This is a friend of mine reminded me the other night. Boys don't cry. Is it phrase it turns us in a man that don't talk. It's like women grow up with impossible physical standards, but really men grow up with impossible emotional ones. Yeah, and when something bad happens to a little boy, if he's not able to talk, can he turn into something evil and dark and twisted and upside down? Yeah, if the alternative, which is admitting like weakness and and pain and a need for help, if that is literally unthinkable because of the society he's been raised in, like. Yeah. What else does he do but, like, get violent? Yeah, yeah. This is like a worldwide problem. I agree, obviously. I agree 100%. I went to College in Sweden and I saw a movie there. It was Judge Dredd. Oh **** yeah, the original. The original. OK. The good. I was going to college, so is class wasn't starting for three weeks, so we went to see Judge Dredd and it was rated X and I was like, oh, she's making ****. So then I wasn't going to watch it, but a bunch of people were going in. I'm like, screw it, I'll go in. I go regular movie. Two weeks later, I see a movie with a Swedish friend, a Swedish movie rated PG and his nephews next to us. And a guy pulls down his pants and his penises out there and he's shaking it around and. And I'm in shock. And the little kids just eating Swedish, Swedish fish, you know, it's just a penis. Just a penis. Whatever. And then my friend goes, oh, I forgot. You're from America. Yeah. You guys rate your movies by sex. We rate our movies by violence. Yeah. And I just felt like a monkey. No. And it's it makes more sense. Yeah, it really does. And there's a lot of. I mean, we could, we could. We could go down this rabbit hole for forever. Yeah. So we're well off. I mean, don't apologize because it's it's a subject that's never not interesting to me. You know, it's the difference between, as a little kid, I started shooting guns when I was six or seven. My uncle came over and he taught me how to shoot. And we we we did some hunting and stuff like that. And I don't think that's unhealthy, but I think playing with guns the way I played with guns is a little kid was unhealthy. I think that's bad for you. I think that like, fetishization of violence and power. And then coming into a world, and I think there's this, I think video games give it to you too, where you get used to in this one little aspect of your life, this fantasy aspect, having all this control and being able to be the arbiter of who lives and dies and all this stuff. And then you go into the real world where you have none of that control because it's the world and there's other people doing their own things, and you can't just be like, that's where the alt right comes from. Is that like, dichotomy? That, like mental disconnect? I think you're right. I think people masturbate to the alt right the way people who don't have sex masturbate to **** stars. Yeah. They're behaving in a way and doing things that I can't do, but I wish I can. Yeah. Yeah it's that that's why these guys focus on Nazis or whatever who just got got rid of all the people they don't like because all these little kids in their rooms just have a bunch of hate for people who won't go away the way they're enemies. And the video game. Well, yeah, and I guess that's why Roger Stone embraced the proud boys and the alt right so definitively because at the end of the day he didn't have video games to grow up with. But he is that guy. He is that guy wearing fancy suits and. Following his suspenders braces so that he can be better than everybody and control his world more. We brought it back around. It was great. We brought it back around. You're not you're a poet to me. You want to plug your puggles? Sure, if you're looking for live comedy with a political bent. You could find all my live shows in and around LA and around the country at tamerkattan.com TAMERKATAN. My podcast is they tried to bury us. Every week we have a new American origin story from a different immigrant. And I'm Tamara cat on all things social media. And you can find me on. The twits, the tweet at eyebright. OK, that's me on the on the torts. And you can find this podcast on the Internet at behindthebastards.com. You can find us on the social needs. And at ******** pod. You can buy a shirt, you can buy a cup. Very cool shirts by the way. Thank you. Very great shirts. You can buy scale models of the spaceship from aliens, all from teepublic.com, all branded with our don't tell James Cameron that it's very illegal, but for a limited time, until we get to takedown request, we will be selling. All of that stuff James Cameron has sex in bikinis. Really? Well, Roger Stone said it. Ohh well, I mean, then it's gotta be true. It's gotta be true. Well, let's all leave you guys on that. On that absolutely true note from from our buddy Roger Stone. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Speaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break our handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Introducing the biz tape you're all things music business and media podcast. Join me, Joe Waslewski, and my co-host Colin McKay every Wednesday where we discussed the breaking news, changing the music industry, and what your favorite artists and creatives are up to. Listen to new episodes of the biz tape every Wednesday on the Nashville podcast network, available on iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, it's Bobby Bones from the Bobby cast. 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