Behind the Bastards

There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.

Part Two: Peter Nygard: The Epstein of Fashion

Part Two: Peter Nygard: The Epstein of Fashion

Thu, 27 Oct 2022 10:00

Robert is joined again by Margaret Killjoy to continue to discuss Peter Nygard.

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You have a dark obsession. You love True Crime. An I Heart podcast has gathered the best True Crime all in one channel, I Heart True Crime Plus. It's packed with podcasts about murder cases, missing persons, serial killers, and more. So there's always something disturbingly good to binge and share. I Heart True Crime Plus subscribers also enjoy ad-free listening, early access to select episodes, and exclusive bonus content. Subscribe to I Heart True Crime Plus today, exclusively on Apple Podcasts. 13 Days of Halloween Devils Night Do not lead your house. Do not answer the door. If you hear a bump in the night, do not go investigate. Season 3 of the Horror Fiction Podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Oh my god, he's gonna get left behind. He's gonna spend the night out here. Starring Carter Rockwood. Are you hitting me? You know what night it is? Do you hear a Viratio? And Clancy Brown. There are things in the night that would love to get their bony hands on a boy like you. Listen to 13 Days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've got his fitness in Jackson. And I'm Charlie Webster. Listen to the podcasts surviving El Chapo, the incredible true story of the identical twins from Chicago, who built America's biggest drug trafficking empire. They are the reason El Chapo is now in prison and they've never spoken publicly until now. My brother had the only legal recording of Chapo's mom. Listen to surviving El Chapo, the twins who brought down a drug lord on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh yeah, it's behind the bastards. The podcast that I opened this episode with something that might kind of sound like an orgasm. So you know what? Why don't you take that clip of, oh gosh, what was the movie? Why are you doing this to your Brian has like a loud fake orgasm? What movie? When Harry met Sally. When Harry met Sally, why don't you mix those together and put it up on the subreddit and be real. Why are you? Okay. First of all, why are you open like this? Why not? Why not? Because maybe Sophie, if I make her stare into the death of their own madness, then they'll turn around. Maybe that's the healthy thing to do. We're going to have to have a meeting. We have so many meetings. I know. Um, isn't this the intervention? I thought that was the, that's why you had me on. Oh, Margaret. Oh, Margaret. Uh, more heavily armed people than either of you have tried. And although since we are recording in my house right now, you might be closer to my, my living room rifle than I am at the moment. All I've got is my nine. Um, boy, Margaret, kill joy behind the bastards, podcast, Margaret, host, cool people who did cool stuff and live like the world is dying. Author of we won't be here tomorrow. See, that's how you fucking, and so you do an introduction. All right. And do it when I want to, Margaret. Yeah. Now, Margaret, is it not true that you are currently crashing in my house? Uh, I plead that, no, yeah, I am. Yeah. How's that going? Did we or did we not go to a Renaissance fair last weekend where we, and then afterwards, watch the ad Harris George Romero movie Night Writers? Oh, it was amazing. Both, both parts of this. Absolutely. Yeah. And also true that we got to hang on it. It was super fun. I know. I love it. I finally got to meet my co-workers at a cool zone media by driving out to the list. It is. It is. And watching Robert buy a very large sword and being kind of jealous. I did buy a very large sword. That's essentially a standard practice here. Yeah. Yeah. Cool zone media. I wanted you to buy a large sword so that you know, have a sword fight in my back yard. But I know I almost did. But then instead I bought a really nice like handmade wool and cowl. You did, it is a nice cow. Oh, yeah. It is a nice cow. Your cow will keep you warmer than my sword. Yeah. You have to be able to sort it. If you're attacked by serocents, then who's got the advantage? Yeah. That's true. That's right. That's right. Possibly still you, depending on what time of year it happens. So Margaret, I am among other things having to rejigger the script slightly because I had said it in my head the whole time as Nigred K, even though I have been to many places that are keys and I know it's supposed to be pronounced key. I still called it K in my head and I don't know why. I don't know why my brain did that to me, but it feels like an affront. Huh. How is it spelled? C-A-Y. Huh. So like the Florida keys are spelled. Yep. No. No, they're not. They're spelled K-E-Y-S if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. It makes sense and I'm live it. I'm just angry, Margaret. That is the real bastard of this episode. No, not very. This one's pretty bad actually. Warm. And the dictionary. A nomadic warm machine geared towards destroying the Miriam Webster dictionary or whoever makes things be pronounced ways. I don't actually know who that is. So Nigred K was the society. I was not. Yeah, society. Destroy society. I guess this is now an accelerationist podcast. Nigred K was not the only thing Peter Nigred named after himself. His fashion company, his jet, his bottled water that he served at his compound and a specific copyrighted shade of electric blue were all named after him. And it's the shade of blue that he wears on himself all the time. I bet his car is that color. Oh, he wants to. I bet a lot of them are. Yeah. Now, before the stories broke that we talked about last episode and that we're about to talk in this episode, this all helped to solidify his legend as one of the most infamously wealthy playboys of the fashion industry. Peter tended to wear Nigred blue V-necks with a V that went down further than I think ought to be entirely legal. I found a really good shot of it where like there's a woman next to him who is wearing a V-neck or like a V front top that like shows the most of her breasts and her belly button and it's only slightly deeper than his shirt. Yeah. He is, he is almost showing his much chest to serve. Yeah. He cuts it above his belly because he's. Yeah. Yeah. He's a little bit shy. I bet he wouldn't have done that 20 years ago. Yeah. And I think that's actually his old dress that she's wearing. She's wearing his old clothes. Yeah, I just can't do it anymore. Yeah. It's interesting. I also think that blue shirt he's wearing is the shade of blue he named after himself. Which just looks like light blue, not that exciting as you know blue. I don't have any issues perfectly pleasant shade of blue, but not. It's blue. It's blue, right? Yeah. It's blue. You didn't invent like a new cut like it's blue, bro. It's just blue. Yeah. Alternatively, if he had to dress up for a party or a social event, he tended to wear layers of elaborate costume grade clothing that made him look like a cross between an elderly Fabio and an extra from pirates of the Caribbean. And boy, this next shot is quite an outfit. He's got like a really and this ass got is an electric blue. Looks like it's silk. He's got a tuxedo shirt and then what looks like a it's not quite a tuxedo jacket because it's a little more casual than that, but it looks like it's almost like a velour or maybe a velvet gray on the inside. It's a vampire extra. He looks like he's playing vampire the masquerade tonight. Yeah. He looks like he's doing vampire larping. Except for he has an incredibly deep tan and no one who has ever played vampire the masquerade had a tan. That's true because they would die if they're exposed to sunlight. Exactly. That's just not very good. K-fabe. Yeah. Do you call it K-fabe and larping because you should? I don't know what K-fabe is, but I also I actually, I'm a poser about larping. I mean, and that I write about it sometimes, but I'm really a tabletop girl. Well, I mean, yeah, that I get. But you do have a nice set of reddison spare clothes. That's true. I kind of just wear them anyway. K-fabe. Margaret, this is important. You don't know. K-fabe is a wrestling term and it's the practice of like maintaining the illusion that like whatever it is, whatever ridiculous shit you're doing in your wrestling storyline is completely real. Like if you hate a guy that you actually hate each other, like a bad guy that he's a real bad guy, yeah, like that's K-fabe. Okay. Wrestling is fascinating from a cultural standpoint. And also he does kind of look like a wrestler because of how much skin he shows and precisely where he shows it. From what I can discern, from a truly unfortunate amount of time, it's been looking at photos of this man, he tended to go shirtless much more often in his 50s and 60s in the nearly arts, which were the height of his party days. One photo shows him wearing a vest and nothing else. Skin is red as a stop sign, hair down past his shoulders and Robert De Niro standing next to him, looking absolutely miserable. Robert De Niro does not want to be in this photograph. Like it is an amazing shot. Oh no, I scrolled down. Please tell us about the next photo. Bob De Niro does not want to be there. And there's a, there's, here's a photo of him and around the same time, slightly less red, but just as shirtless with a chemo jacket over his naked chest and a parrot, a live parrot on his shoulder. Yes, his arm around Sean Connery. Sean Connery, it's what I thought it was. And Sean looks perfectly comfortable. Sean Connery was meant to be there. This is what he was born to. He's the best life. The look on his face is the, I'm posing with a fan the way I do this every day. And my life is fine. That is his look. Unlike De Niro, who is like in the process of asking someone to get this man away from me. I came down here and there's no walls between the bedrooms. I would like to go home. I need to leave. Sean Connery is like, I've never actually seen walls in a bedroom. Peter bragged constantly about his sexual partners in the routine lifestyle. He joked in one interview that Celebacy was quote, the worst 20 minutes of my life. Workers at the key say his nightly routine was to have them light torches at sunset and play the theme from the phantom of the opera before he and his guests engaged in pamper parties. How you doing, Margaret? Jesus Christ. I mean, like, it's one of these things where it was like if everything he did was consensual and sort of nothing. He did. Yes, of course. Yeah. I'm just like, all right. I have a hearty with a much less wealthy version of this guy who didn't commit sex crimes. Yeah. It's kind of exhausting, but more or less harmless, right? Where it's like, oh, you like theatrics and big groups of people cuddling. And everybody drinks terrible mixed drinks, but nobody has a bad time. It's just kind of kind of a lot. Now, of course, one of the, and this is one of the ways in which you can tell like what's going on here was not in fact a cool thing. Basically all of the guests are extremely young women. The only other men that Peter would ever invite were like celebrities that he want to do impress. Yeah. Now, obviously, we don't know precisely who attended these parties or what they did, but we do know that his frequent guests included Michael Jackson and George H.W. Bush. Cool. What a, what a party. You could have done cocaine in the fucking Bahamas with Michael Jackson and George H.W. Bush and then committed the kind of crimes that make God damn your children. Yeah. What a, what a lifestyle. What a, and this is why it's so mad at all the like, pita gate type shit is I'm like, yeah. What is happening if this happening for real? Yeah. Obviously, we don't know what George H.W. Bush got up to, but George H.W. Bush has some allegations against him as does Michael Jackson. Yeah. Now, that said, I actually am less inclined to think Jackson engaged in anything while hanging out with Peter than George H.W. Bush, because I think Jackson was kind of more private about it. If I understand him kind of correctly, but who knows who knows what went down. It is always possible, as was sometimes the case with Epstein, that a lot of these famous guests were not introduced to anything illegal at Nigred's compound, right? You can bring in a lot of young adult women for parties and a lot of, well, the drug parts would have been illegal, but not actually be committing any serious crimes that are certainly going to get you penalized. And if you've got super famous people coming over to your house, like George H.W. Bush, that's probably the smarter thing to do, especially since George is going to have members of law enforcement who have to be tailing him, right? And that's probably more likely for Nigred than for Epstein. While the deceased financier made much of his fortune in reputation from providing wealthier and more powerful men with young women and girls, Nigred was more into celebrities as far as we know, just for the clout. Again, I have no interest in defending anyone here. And it's possible his friends who include former president Bill Clinton as well. Oh, slick willies at the fucking Nigred key, too. Don't get me wrong. It's very possible, if not somewhat likely, that they got up to some shady stuff. But also from every story we get, Peter is a wildly jealous man. And all of the allegations of rape and sexual assault focus on him and his use of wealth and his fabulous compound to lure young people into his bed. Yeah. It's entirely possible that as far as the actual illegal sex trafficking stuff, that's just Peter because he doesn't really like the idea of sharing. He doesn't want to be like an Epstein figure. He actually made money for himself, right? He wants to be the guy getting the thing, you know? Yep. A lateral move if I've ever heard one from an athlete. Yeah, I'm not trying to make like a major moral decision. No, no, no, no, I'm not trying to separate them. But I think there is kind of a difference between what they were up to. Um, pamper parties tended to occur on Sundays. And most of the female guests were women who lived elsewhere nearby in the Bahamas or who were visiting his tourists from somewhere else. A decent number of them were local women and girls. Meagard would send his staff out into the cities nearby to invite women and, and again, girls back for free massages, manicures, horseback rides and an open bar. The New York Times talked to six of him, his employees who recruited people at shops, clubs and restaurants to come and party. Quote, one time he was like, I don't know where you find these girls from, but there's pretty girls in the ghetto as well, recalled Freddie Barr, Mr. Nigard's personal assistant in the early 2000s. You need to find pretty girls in need. Cool. Cool. Eventually, his staff compiled an invitation list, provided to the Times with the names of more than 700 women. Former workers said they photographed guests when they arrived, uploading the images for their boss's perusal, only those who were young, slim and with a curvy backside, which Mr. Nigard called a toilet. We're supposed to be allowed inside, according to the ex-employees, including Mrs. Taylor. So it's basically a private version of the origin of Facebook. Yeah. Yeah, he did kind of make his own, because he was already rich just for him to like molest people with. Well, that's terrible and great task. The actress Jessica Alba, who attended an Iguard party while filming into the blue in 2004, later described it as gross. These girls are like 14 years old in the Jacuzzi, taking off their clothes. She said on a press tour. And here's the thing. First off, I don't know much about Jessica Alba. Kudos to her for saying something at all, because number one, that's pretty unsparing. That is a direct allegation that he is like doing inappropriate things with children. Yeah. On a press tour. Jessica Alba's pretty based, actually. Yeah. Very little about her, but she went and said something and fucking nobody else did. Like very, very little. No, very few people of her at her level of kind of clout and influence said anything about what Peter was. Yeah. For sure. A lot of them were aware of some of it, right? So good, good for you, Jessica Alba. You get the behind the bastards. Seal of doing good stuff. Yeah. I mean, like, at what point is this the first person who's like coming forward? And being like, there's 14 year olds in this hot tub or this is obviously there were all of it. We just went through that history of like the Winnipeg free beacon or whatever it was reported on a number of allegations, a number of women made allegations. Yeah. There were some don't know. I think it's the kid thing more specifically, but I guess in his mind, it's far as the same thing. This is the first like national level large scale public person with any kind of platform to a ledge that Peter Nigerd is doing inappropriate things with children on his compound. As far as I can tell, Jessica Alba's the first person to do that. So again, like seriously, Kudos to her. Yes. Very few other people did and fucking Sean Connery probably knew, right? Maybe Deneuro did do. Although to be entirely fair, it does not look like Bob Deneuro wanted to be next to Peter Nigerd. Yeah. He may have shown up once and been like, well, this seems like it's going to be a bad thing. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know Bob Deneuro. I think her example makes it clear that we can probably assume a number of famous people were at least present for some fucked up shit, even if Nigerd wasn't trafficking children specifically to them, right? Yeah. They could have been aware. People, if Jessica Alba, I don't believe Jessica Alba is the only celebrity who witnessed stuff like this, right? She's just the one who said something. Now some people did a ledge to the times that Nigerd also tried to stop his employees from inviting black people to the key, or whatever it's worth, I don't actually think that's true. There's photos of his parties and a number of the people there are black allegations, also like a number of the people who accused him of abuse are black women. And I think people who were black women who were like children at the time of the abuse. Yeah. I don't know that I think that one is true. I'm not saying he's not racist. It doesn't seem like he discriminated in that particular way. Right. And his part has claimed for years that one reason his wealthy neighbors hated him is he blames them for cooking all of this up and and and faking all of this, which we'll get to admit, that they hated him because he's not racist. And I'm going to quote from Vanity Fair here. Nigerd supporters say his parties do stand out because they're full of people who wouldn't otherwise be in life for key. He has poor kids and athletes out to his house every day, says his best friend, Carlos Mackie, who was the host of a sports program on a local TV. He's a philosopher, a visionary, a genius, but his heart says big is Shamu the whale. Nigerd is well known throughout the Bahamas for his financial support of the country's Olympics running squads among many other charities. Windle Jones, the publisher of the Bahama journal, says, the residents of life or key say they don't appreciate his flamboyance when what they don't like is the fact that he invites so many black people over. Peter Nigerd is a force for good. This is from an article back before all of the things that we're about to talk about. I have talked about broke. That's the way, obviously, those are people who he has influence on, who he's got talking to the press for him, right? On his many personal websites. On his many personal websites. And these are the kind of things they're saying is like, no, he's a philanthropist and a philosopher and a philosopher. It's just their racist actually because he's so not racist. And that's why his neighbors don't like him. Now the job of Nigerd's employees and some of the women that he dated was to find girls that he liked the most at parties and once things that kind of loud and chaotic and people weren't really paying attention to get that particular targeted person drunk and either drug them or convince them to just take drugs. And as you're kind of dozing, you're like, hey, you know, what we should do is like if you really want some good cocaine, we can go up to Peter's bedroom. That's where he keeps the good stuff and we'll do some blow up. Nigerd denies all this and says that no underage girls were allowed at the key. He provides affidavits from a former employee who called Peter the Bahamas most generous and honest expatriate. Nigerd's house manager, reshett Ross told the New York Times that as social media became more prominent, his staffers would use Facebook posts to promote parties and even send messages directly to women offering free dinners, massages, pedacures and boat rides. Sometimes he rated his new guests, ABC or D upon entry. Ross says that his primary judgment criteria was again, whether or not they had a quote, nice toilet. He uses that a lot. You can't avoid seeing it. Yeah. There are allegations that he drugged people's drinks. There are allegations by one of his former employees that a woman escaped from the property and was brought back by the local police. The person who made those, this is where it gets messy though, because the person who made those specific allegations, which is a minority of the allegations of sexual harassment and assault. Also, herself claims to have been a victim of Nigerd and who have been drugged by her girlfriend. But this person also, so here's where it gets kind of weird because the person who like makes those claims also has been accused by other people who previously accused Peter of sexual harassment, of having that she bribed them. This is what gets us into kind of the next messy stage of things, right? So this woman Ross makes a lot of, she claims Nigerd had her family dog killed. And the New York Times did find evidence that Nigerd wired her $10,000 and emailed her, I sent you money for a new dog. But we don't really know, like, this is where it gets all, because again, this is what we're getting to is like, there's a lot of messiness here. And so the fact that I don't want to discount Ross's allegations, but also Ross is alleged by other women to have bribed them, to have claimed that Nigerd assaulted them. And again, those are like two of the dozens of women who have accused him. So I don't think that says anything about the legitimacy of the allegations against him. But it does mean that like we do have to kind of wonder is Ross a little bit, right? Because this is, yeah, yeah. Or whether, yeah. Or whether he's trying to like muddy the waters by getting someone to go do this. Well, we're getting, there's another part of the story that's critical to understand why finding out kind of exactly what was going on in Nigerd Key is so messy. Cash payments were the near billionaires favorite way of dealing with problems. He was heavily involved with the progressive party, liberal party of the Bahamas. We kept happy with constant liberal payoffs to officials. When more than $10,000 was required, he would try to do things like have larger quantities stuffed into fresh fish and ship to whoever he was trying to be a friend. That's kind of fun. As I noted earlier, Peter is really scared of aging. So the one thing that caused him to seriously alter his fashion habits was getting older. This is not something he agreed to do without a fight. And I want to quote now from the New York Post, which normally I wouldn't use here. But the allegations they're quoting here appear in a number of other places that are just annoyingly paywalled. And this is kind of an easier place to get them. Quote. Nigerd, obsessed with staying young, ended up establishing his stem cell research company in nearby St. Kits. He alleged purpose to use aborted fetuses from his pregnant girlfriends to provide him with fresh stem cells. Nigerd seemed to suggest that something like that could be a foot when he talked about the technology behind his treatments publicly. I may be the only person in the world he bragged who has my very own embryos growing in a petri dish. One of his girlfriends, Suelyn Meadros, wrote in her 2014 memoir about a trip she took with Nigerd, Ukraine, where he was having stem cell research done. He asked, Suelyn, do you know what the best stem cells are? She writes, she did, embryos. Correct, she says, Nigerd responded. If you got pregnant and had an abortion, we could use those embryonic cells and have a life supply for all of us. You, your mother and me, a lot of people are doing it. So again, that's, that's, that's, that's, oh boy. I never even thought of that one. That's a new one for me. Yeah, a new way to be a misogynist. That is, that is certainly not a thing that I had heard about a person doing before. Although, I guess I'm not. Again, he's like the sleazier version of more famous guys. Yeah. He's like Jeffrey Epstein, but without like the Veneer of philanthropy. He's, he's Peter Teal, but without like the, the image of, of Wall Street cunning. Um, like he's, he's all of these, he's, he's all of the worst aspects of all of the rich demons who, who invest our world. It's kind of amazing actually. Yeah. But, but you know who's not the arcane of the darkest parts of wealth. Anderson? That is correct. Anderson doesn't even know what a stem cell is. No, she does not. Honestly, not really doesn't really know what Ukraine is. I don't think dogs recognize geographical boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually they kind of do. I did, I did. Yeah, if you take my walks around the edge of Ukraine, they'll know not to leave Ukraine. She did, she did kind of just whisper, you know, fuck Vladimir Putin under a breath, but well, that could be about a minute, a number of things. Yeah. I think we should all mold this over while we let these ads soothe our tired souls. Yeah. Anderson, tell us what you think. Okay, go ahead and admit it. You have a dark obsession and obsession that you just can't quit. You love true crime. And if you're all about unsolved murders and a furious deeds and gruesome occurrences, I Heart True Crime Plus is the podcast feed for you. I Heart Podcasts has gathered the best of true crime all in one podcast channel. From your favorite shows to new podcasts you've yet to discover, I Heart True Crime Plus is packed with murder cases, missing persons, serial killers, conspiracies, and everything in between. Always something new and disturbingly good to binge and share. 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We're ready for the holidays today with the customized ad from All right, and we're back. Oh, man, Anderson had a really good joke. She did. She did. I think that might get you canceled in some parts of Twitter, but then you can get a Netflix special where you really lean into it and eventually get paid $25 million to do another Netflix special about what a brave truth teller you are. This is how Sophie can finally retire. So, I mean, Anderson shares. Yeah. It's here we should probably deal with some very sketchy aspects of the story, because two of the women who spoke with the Times and accused Nigerd of sexual assault have now recanted their claims. Now, obviously, this comes after 10 other unidentified women filed a federal lawsuit in 2020 against Nigerd, which prompted an FBI raid on his Manhattan office and eventually his arrest. Again, none of this should state to like muddy the waters of the overall allegations against him. It just makes it kind of hard to know the specifics in certain cases. While the Times reporting still holds up, they spoke with more than a dozen other women who have not recanted. I would be responsible not to know that the two women who recanted claim they were paid to lie by Ross, Ross denies this and took a polygraph test, which does not particularly mean much to me either way. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a profoundly messy case. And this is due in large part to a bit of the story that we have not talked about yet, Margaret, the decade-long turf war between Peter Nigerd and his neighbor, a billionaire, which is ultimately what helped to bring him down. So we're past the bad parts, the well, it's all bad. But we're past the parts that are like soul crushing and now we're into the part where two rich guys destroy each other. Hell yeah. Or at least one rich guy destroys another. Either way, it's fun. So the community that Nigerd lived in, as we've mentioned a couple of times is called LIFRID key, it was created as a planned community for the Uber Rich by EP Taylor, a Canadian beer brewing millionaire. Taylor planned LIFRID as a winter community and built his dream out of a 3,000 acre plot formerly owned by Sir Harold Christie. The manners that were constructed for the first wave of owners in the 50s and 60s had names like Trollala Safari, T-Time and Out of Bounds. So I suspect some sex crime stuff might have been happening in LIFRID key prior to beer Nigerd. Yeah. Yeah. In 1962, when JFK flew to the Bahamas to talk with British Prime Minister Harold McMillan, they both stayed in LIFRID key. At Trollala. At Trollala. Probably at Trollala or maybe at Out of Bounds. So did at varying points in this period and re-forward the second, Aga Khan IV, the Prince of Monaco and Sean Connery who went on to own a home there. The Heinzes and the Mellon family also had homes there. It was a veritable who's who of the blueest bloods in the world and a handful of celebrities for good measure, but celebrities like Sean Connery who were like at least a certain level. So why the great lakes? Because I have this other idea. Okay. If all of the, the who's who or anyway, so please continue. I think we dropped them in the great lakes, kind of like George C. Scott at the end of that movie where they're, where they're hugging the bombs, but they're not, they're not on there by choice. Okay. Intercontinental billionaire missiles. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That way the president really thinks before he fires them. Yeah. But hopefully not too hard. Yeah. Yeah. So at first, life-ridd key is like classy and pretty high profile, right? Those are not little names. The Mellons, the fucking Carnegie fan. Like those are, those are significant fortunes. Yeah. But things started to change kind of as the years went on and I'm going to quote from Vanity Fair here. Today's roster is sleepy by comparison. Aside from Sean Connery who nearly half a dozen James Bonso go shot Thunderball and several of their films here. There are scores of semi-anonymous businessmen or their progeny. Bacon and Nigard's neighbors prefer to keep a low profile, count and count as the raviinal of France. The Brazilian reinsurance magnate Antonio Braga, Jane Lewis, the wife of the English inventor Joe Lewis. It's quiet money, says David McLaughlin, a New York financier, second generation life-ridd and chairman of the life-ridd K club. Long before the puddle, Nigard clashed stylistically with much of the life-ridd K establishment. He threw a lot of parties and was always doing construction. And that puddle is kind of the beginning of an issue between him and his neighbor, a guy named Bacon, who we're going to talk about in a bit. But Nigard is kind of for these blue bloods who are again quiet money. Nigard is a nightmare for them. Yeah. He's got about $800 million in personal wealth and he's got a couple of US presidents who he's at least friendly with. So he's too rich and powerful to force out, right? You can't kick this guy out with your fancy rich people community. But he's also, he's like gross, right? Like he's not, these guys are all doing sketchy shit, but they're not doing sketchy shit in their fake Mayan temples wearing fucking electric blue spandex body suits or whatever they pay the extra for walls. Yeah, they have walls in their bedrooms where they're also I'm sure committing crimes. But yeah, so he's hated, he's denied entrance to the life-ridd K club, which is a golf. Yeah, right, they won't let him in the club. And yeah, most of his neighbors insist he clashed with them from the start, but Nigard and his adamant that everything was fine with him and his neighbors until he met his next door neighbor, Lewis Bacon. Now Lewis Bacon is a New York City hedge fund billionaire. And one of the most addictive farms of food. Yeah, he did, he did create bacon after inventing the pig, which previously, a lot of people know this, but prior to his invention of the pig, all pigs had actually been ducks. Yeah, that's the way it worked. Yeah, look it up. Google it on Wikipedia.incarta. So obviously, Nigard incorrectly gets referred to as a billionaire a lot. He's not. I think he tops that up like $750 million, which is still quite a fortune. But Bacon is a real billionaire. He's actually got more than a billion dollars. And he's widely seen as one of the most powerful men in the financial industry, right? Like he's, I'm sure he's got even more than that now, because it's been a good couple of years for the finance industry. The two men have very different personalities. While Nigard is showy and ostentatious and like these big lavish gross parties, Bacon is quiet and comparatively introverted. His main interest outside of his job seems to be hunting. And he's one of those hunters who raises a lot of money for conservation, right? Like he pays to protect a lot of land and stuff and all that good things so he can go shoot birds on it or whatever. So he's about to go, since he's about to go to war with Nigard, who's an actual monster. It would be easy to portray Bacon as a hero. Obviously, I don't think he is. He's a man who got wealthy running hedge funds, which is generally not a business I find particularly ethical. But I don't think there's any evidence. And I, in fact, I think it's probably unlikely that he's any kind of systemic, systematic sexual predator or abuser of his employees. And I think it's particularly unlikely because Peter Nigard tried desperately to dig up like dirt in the sky. And like the thing he wound up finding is that like one of his ancient ancestors a long time ago was like a, a, a clansman. But he had another ancestor who fought for the union against the Confederacy. So it's like this whole like, yeah, yeah, is he probably had a bunch of rich guys in his family and then it all sorts of shit. I don't know. He didn't find any evidence that this guy had done anything like the things that Nigard had done, right? So obviously by comparison, he does look quite good. The two had problems over a shared roadway and like there's this fucking puddle as a result of like this kind of thing that's in between their properties and upkeep on it's a little bit unclear. Because libertarian assholes aren't willing to pay for shared infrastructure. Right. Exactly. And this is just kind of them bickering over this kind of thing between their two properties until in 2005, Nigard attempts to add parking to his property by laying a 15 by 20 foot slab on the property line, specifically bacon side of the property line. Yeah. Now, now you fucked up, Peter. All of the sex crimes, all of the horrible violence that you've done to, at this point, I mean, the allegations are hundreds and hundreds of women like me wearing a thousand. Yeah. None of that got you in trouble, but you fucked with a rich guy's property line. I can't even imagine if I had this kind of money, I would not live in such a way that neighbors would exist. Right. What the fuck, man? Like how are you? How do you have this much money? And he says it's because it's the most beautiful place in the world. It's like a story. The promise are very pretty, but there's other islands, man. 750 million dollars. You can make it work. What is wrong with you? Vanity Fair writes, quote, bacon responded by suing Nigard and obtaining a court injunction to remove it. Two years later, bacon dealt with his longstanding irritation with the noise from Nigard's parties by installing industrial grade speakers at the edge of his land and pointing them at Nigard key at night. We hired a sound consultant in the UK to see if we could somehow muffle the sound from Nigard's by emitting a counter sound, but that proved terribly complicated. So we went and got four huge rock concert speakers to play something loud in response. Bacon's architect Peter Taltys says, it was horrible squacking sounds that would drive you out of your mind. Says Eric Gibson, Nigard's former property manager. In a legal filing, Nigard's lawyer characterized them as military grade speakers that blare dangerous, pain-inducing sound waves towards Mr. Nigard's home. They were supposed to create white noise on my side, but that didn't work, Bacon says. What did it to his side? I wasn't really interested in. Honestly, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. And also with a whiny baby, p-military grade speakers. Come on, man. Like fucking a higher, I don't know, what's a kind of band, a guy who looks like him would probably listen to. Besides Jimmy Buffett. But yeah, higher Jimmy Buffett to come play a counter sound. You can afford it. No, Jimmy Buffett would never work with this man. He's a fundamentally moral actor. That's what I choose to believe about James Buffett. As a conservationist, Bacon was also enraged at the fact that Nigard had started dredging up sand from the seafloor and moving it to physically expand the size of his property. He's making his chunk of the island bigger by stealing the sea. What are you, the bottom of the sea? He kept a suction dredge on a floating platform, destroying underwater habitat and adding to his coastline every day. In the time he lived there, Peter expanded his property from 3.25 to 6.1 acres, destroying 84,000 square meters of seafloor in the process. What the fuck? I know such a weird crime. Peter, just buy a different spot. I know. Unbelievable. A local ecologist interviewed in 2015 by Vanity Fair says the environmental damage was extensive. Nigard, to counter this, pointed to a study that he paid to commission that said it was all fine. Again, these are rich guy crimes, right? So you don't just fuck the seafloor up. You pay a scientist to say it's okay. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. Just to build dock systems. Like a build of... Yeah, beautiful, weird, shantytown. But I don't know whatever. You have a number of options with all of that money, Peter, Bacon, who was also influential with the local government, brought their attention to the matter, inspections and injunctions and all sorts of unpleasant legal shit followed. They're kind of... It's my opinion that they're kind of bribing and counterbribing the local government, right? Now, this was more or less the situation in 2009 when an accidental electrical fire destroyed a lot of Nigard key, including Peter's biggest, stupidest pyramid. This was a problem, but one well within Peter's financial means to rectify. But when he sought the permits necessary to replace his home, the local government refused. This is when the New York Times alleges the war began. Mr. Nigard sued over changes his neighbor had made years earlier to their driveway, then he sued the government, saying it was colluding with Mr. Bacon to force him off the island. The allegations became more bizarre. One street protest in NASA, featured men in white hoods and placards per claiming, Bacon is KKK. New websites funded by Mr. Nigard, claimed Mr. Bacon was responsible for several murders, court records show. A video made by Nigard Staff, according to a former contractor, superimposed Mr. Bacon's face on the collapsing twin towers. Oh my God. He's 9-11, him. He's 9-11. He's 9-11, him. That doesn't even make sense. At least there's like, oh yeah, he's got a family member who is in the clan. Let's turn him into a racist or whatever. Like, what does that even mean, Peter? And then he painted a big tunnel on the cliff, but it wasn't a tunnel. And it drove my car into it. He was on the tunnel at all. Bacon drove his car right into it, nearly killed him. No, I do feel confident that Lewis Bacon would not have fallen for that trick. No. I think he is the road runner in this situation. Peter is absolutely the wildie coyote. Yeah, Bacon goes right through that fake tunnel and then Peter Nigard tries to run into it, but he hits his face on it and then he gets blood all over his blue shirt. So I'm quoting again from the New York Times. Mr. Nigard was a formidable opponent. Police officers and local journalists dined at his home. One later admitted in court that Mr. Nigard had paid him to smear Mr. Bacon. Mr. Nigard also had allies in the Progressive Liberal Party, which he wanted to legalize stem cell injection. He bragged he'd given the party $5 million during the 2012 election campaign. Legally, as the Bahamas has no campaign finance laws, after it won the election, a Nigard YouTube channel posted a video featuring six ministers visiting his estate. He threatened or sued media outlets that investigated him. He slow-walked lawsuits, filing countless motions and requesting delays, exhausting his foes. So I also should say, I don't know that anything legally that happened here was bribery because you could just give money to political parties in the Bahamas, right? Which is probably more what's happening. It's just they found a place where they could just give as much money to people as they want until things happen. So that's the actual reason why they're all cramming onto this island. That's I think a big part of it. I think there's a number of things in the Bahamian legal code that make it enticing for guys like Nigard particularly. So this would have been an insurmountable obstacle for any other person going up Peter Nigard. But again, Bacon has more money and in fact, Nigard has now picked an emphasis who has nearly doubled his net worth. Peter could pay protesters and bi articles and newspapers. He could pay to have websites made. He can bribe entire political parties. Bacon can afford to do all that too, not to say that he does. That is not an allegation that he in fact did do those things, but he could afford to. It's simply a statement of their relative levels of wealth. But Bacon did do is form a nonprofit called Save the Bays, which targeted Nigard key for a number of environmental abuses. He also hired as many lawyers and private investigators as he could find vaguely near the Bahamas. And I think flew in some other guys from the FBI and Scotland yard to help. They've found evidence for a defamation lawsuit, which was filed in 2015. And it is allegedly through this process that some of Nigard's former allies began deserting him allegedly because the money is a lot better on the other side. Although this is why, and this is again why it's hard to know precisely what happened, right? Because there's so much fucking money flying around here, right? So many people who are saying, like, so I can't tell you for certain precisely what of the things that Peter is accused of happened, just that these allegations go back like 50 something years. So I'll end there. There's at this point hundreds of people involved. So I don't think that's at all in question. It's just like when you get down to the specifics of like, what was going on in his house parties and how bad was it and how many famous people were involved? Well, there's a lot of fucking allegations flying. Yeah. And a lot of them have money behind them and it's really hard to tell exactly what went down. Well, but the guy who invented the pig, he also probably paid his employees better or like treated his employees better. It probably wasn't like, I think he did. You went on that KKK march, but your white hood wasn't tucked in properly. So that's $25 less than I'm going to pay you. Like that's not a way to keep your paid protesters in. No, no, you get the feeling that Bacon knows how to keep his people happy. He's supposed to Nigerd who apparently makes an enemy of everyone he knows for more than about five minutes. Yeah. Anyway, I'm going to quote again from the times two self described former gang members, Livingston, Toggy Bullard and Whizzler, Bobo, Davilma told the Bacon's investigators that Mr. Nigerd had hired them for dirty work like torching his ex-girlfriends hair salon and staging anti bacon rallies, according to court records. The men claimed Mr. Nigerd had given them a hit list that included Lewis Bacon and Mr. Smith. Mr. Nigerd has denied this. Mr. Bullard and Mr. Davilma working with the Bacon investigators hatched a plan to videotape Mr. Nigerd. The private eyes acted like secret agents using encrypted phones and dropping cash for the two men in a box behind a post office. Eventually, the Bacon's paid the two about one and a half million, mostly for secretly recording five meetings with Mr. Nigerd. The videos turned up no sign of Mr. Nigerd's plotting murder. I can't get into killing. He said in footage obtained by the Times. But the investigation did find photos of Peter looking at very young women from his car and saying stuff like, do you see those toilets and lamenting all of the people that he hadn't yet had sex with? Oh my God. And I think this is apparently what turns the Bacon family on to the possibility that Peter might be having sex with underage people. So in late 2015, they hire a security firm to, in the Times' words, push American law enforcement to investigate whether or not he'd done some sex trafficking. Now the firm they hire is run by a guy named Jeff Davis who claimed to be a 10-year veteran of the CIA who run what he'd called the Ghost Program, which is not a real thing. Doesn't exist. I've seen some movies about it though. Yeah. What do they call Bacon was conned by this guy and spends like $6 million, which is very funny. All of this is extremely funny. But again, it is part of why it's like kind of hard to know the precise details of what happened, which is like me spending $600 to be clear. Yeah. Yeah. This is not going to, Bacon's not like hurting for money because he burned $6 million on this con job. It's all really funny. But it's also like, again, it's hard to, part of why I emphasize the early stuff, his mistreatment of workers, the outright criminal behavior there, all of the rape and sexual assault allegations against him from people who were extremely young, going back further than even the 1980s. This goes back to the very beginning of his career because once you hit this period where he's fighting with Bacon, tens of millions of dollars and disinfo were just flying around. And nailing down what happened is very, very touchy, right? Yeah. And I'm being so careful about what I say here because like, this is, even though Niger is kind of probably down for the count, this is a fight between two very, very rich men and you don't want to be uncareful when you talk about, totally, may have done what, right? Yeah. But you know who's always careful when they make allegations about sex crimes? It's gonna be an ad for Bacon, isn't it? I hope it's an ad for Bacon, the Bacon industry would never do anything like that to us. I don't know, I mean, the guy, oh, well, honestly, he seems like he's in the clear for that one too. But yeah, anyway, there you go. Okay, go ahead and admit it. You have a dark obsession, an obsession that you just can't quit. You love true crime. 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Anderson's another cancelable thing. Oh boy, he sure did. And Anderson, he, she, wow, if you're going to accuse her of doing something wrong. Oh, but it was actually it wasn't an, it wasn't an actual bad thing that she said. I regret it starting this bit. Yeah, she's I almost fed into the bit by being like, yeah, she made a comment about her appreciation of Rhodesian pattern camouflage. But then I decided not to. And I feel bad that I have led us to the chain of events that has taken us to where we are. Margaret, this was this was your fault. This was all what a disaster. I recognize that this is this is the podcasting equivalent of starting a fight with your neighbor who has one and a half billion dollars because Anderson can actually do no wrong. Let's be honest. That's right. That's right. And Peter Bacon can pay to have done no wrong at the very least. And Anderson, Anderson loves to eat bacon. So here we are. Oh, yeah, exactly. Full circle. And anyway, let's get back on the old on the old train. So as when we left off, Lewis had just gotten conned out of six million dollars by the ghost program CIA guy who is I think just a con man. And the guy who conned him told Bacon the night. He had put hits out on his family and like actually got got like hooked bacon up with bodyguards who drove him and his family to safe houses. And what must have been a very exciting afternoon for everybody. Bacon eventually realizes he's been had and the FBI and Homeland Security both did launch investigations, but they didn't go anywhere into Peter. So Bacon and his brother decided to put together a lawsuit in 2017 patterned off of some of the most prominent me two cases, right? They're kind of paying attention to what's happening. They know there's no, there's smoke and fire with Peter Niger, right? Because they do have it at this point stuff is online. They found the old allegations, right? They've got people who are able to see the shit that had happened in Canada find those old Winnipeg, whatever newspaper articles and stuff. So they put together a lawsuit. They get their private investigators to introduce 15 Bahamian women to American lawyers to do like sue Peter out of New York. And I'm going to quote from the times here. One woman now involved in the suit told the time she was 14 when she met Mr. Niger at one of his stores in 2015. She is a photo with him that day. She said that she was later invited for a modeling interview at Niger's key where he assaulted her. She said that she had never told anyone what happened. Another woman in the suit said it in an interview that she was 14 when she attended a pamper party in 2011 after her mother asked Mr. Niger to sponsor her in a beauty pageant. Is this what my life can be? She recalled thinking of the models in the room. Her glass of wine never seemed to empty. She said later she recalled she swallowed pills that Mr. Niger told her models took. Then she said he took her upstairs and you know drawn by the money and promise a modeling gig she later returned recruiting other women she said. Tamika Ferguson found her way to Niger's key in 2004 after being kicked out of high school. And orphan from a poor neighborhood she said a DJ had invited her to a pamper party. She drank too much and ended up in a bathroom barefoot in her bikini she said when she emerged her friends had gone. Mr. Niger steers her upstairs and I don't think I need to finish that. Yeah. So the times has photographs of this woman in that that's woman took of herself in Niger's key. Three people a former Niger girlfriend and ex-employee and a guest said that they were remembered her here. So this is again these are all been backed up. These are very for all of the stuff that is kind of murky. There's a lot that's extremely clear right in terms of the allegations against Niger. Now back to the things that are complicated. The investigators and lawyers that are putting together this lawsuit were paid by a nonprofit called Sanctuary. Mr. Bacon was a generous donor to Sanctuary. There are claims from people interviewed by the New York Times that Bacon are entities which received funding from him gave money to a number of women in exchange for going forward against Niger. Peter would probably say that they were paid to lie. It's worth noting that several of these women claimed the money was necessary to keep them safe from Niger. Which is certainly not without merit, right? Like again, it's very messy, but I get that point, right? Like, yeah, you're being asked to go up against a very rich man. You don't want no backup there, especially in a place like the Bahamas where it's really easy to buy the law and buy the government. So it's a massive case. I think there's plenty of clear reporting though about what happened and about what Peter did. And I don't have trouble believing in his guilt. And apparently neither did the FBI because they eventually decide they have seen enough and accus him of sex trafficking, sex trafficking involving minors rape and racketeering after raiding his offices in 2020. In 2021, Niger was charged by the Toronto police with multiple cases of sexual assault and forcible confinement from cases between the mid 1980s and the mid 2000s. With the damn broken around him, more allegations flooded out the earliest of which dates back to 1968. There are at least 52 plaintiffs currently pursuing legal action against him in several cases, including a class action. In 2018, Nigerd Key was seized by the Supreme Court of the Bahamas. The property is currently in ruins. Peter Nigerd remains in custody in Canada awaiting extradition to the United States. He says that his health is terrible and that he can't get the kind of food that he wants to eat while he's behind bars. Oh no. Oh, no. Yeah. I, again, don't really care what happens to this guy at this point. No. Not really. As long as he's kept away from doing any harm. His finances seem like they're in disaster. His company is failing. I wonder who's going to buy his property. Yeah. I think it's already been confiscated by the government, but yeah, I don't know. I'll tell you this, don't get into a fight with Lewis Bacon. No. And honestly, like, credit to Lewis, apparently nothing else was going to fucking take this man down. And by God, it needed to happen. I'm just glad that it did. Lewis, good work. Although it is pretty funny that you got caught by the fake CIA guy. Yeah. It's a real hero. That's pretty funny. The guy you got. No, that is the most likeable version in the story, the guy who got a bunch of money for fucking nothing. I could have made a money for nothing in the Chicks for Free Joke, but in an episode like this, that wouldn't have, wouldn't have been that. But I thought about it because that's a pretty good song. I feel like there's just always that irony of like all of the like anti-sellout songs that are on the radio from like the 70s or whatever. Is that an anti-sellout song though? I thought so. Isn't it kind of just a like, it's making fun of, it's not like anti-sellout, but it's like anti-music industry, which is like, I mean, to be fair, if I was engaged at a professional level in the music industry, I would absolutely write songs so I can shit on it. Unlike my professional engagement in the podcast industry, which I absolutely love my corporate overlords. Well, it's interesting. I don't know. Now we're completely off the topic, but I've never sat down and looked at the lyrics, but isn't it like some guys who work at like a furniture store or something being like, we're busing our asses all these day and these guys just like half-ass some songs and they get all that money for nothing and the Chicks for Free? I thought that was what the song was about. You're probably right. But they also like, you know, wrote Salt and the Swing, which was like way more of a like, it's much better to just go be the guy who plays at the bar every day. You know what? The world doesn't need to know my opinion about dire straits. Nope. This is what we're talking about. Welcome to the dire straits cast. A podcast where I, Robert Evans, a guy who only knows the song Money for Nothing and the Chicks for Free, which is probably not what that song is called by the dire straits and Margaret Killjoy, who knows at least one other song by the same band. Amazing that this podcast is in its seventh year. I know. And people keep, no one actually listens, but we found a weird loophole where the advertisers keep a pain and we just get automatically downloaded to your phone like that one you too. Yeah. Well, Margaret, how do you feel about Peter and I? I feel very negatively about him. I hate being reminded that people like him exist and are everywhere. Sure are. And they helped make NAFTA a reality. Yeah. I love it. It is amazing that this is one of the guys who made NAFTA happen. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there is a world full of heroes who've dedicated their lives. Like, there's a pastista movement, right? Like, you know, kicked off in response to NAFTA, NAFTA signing, right? And there's these like world of unsung heroes who will dedicate their amazing lives to fighting this. And then there's the guy who's like, I built a weird thing into Bahamas so that I can sexually assault people because the whole thing was just so I can sexually assault more people. And it's just like, yeah, I do. I just helped destroy, number one, helped destroy like the unionized garment industry in two countries. And number two, like, roped people from around the world and particularly in Mexico and the nightmarish working conditions and abuse in order to make enough money that I could build a fake Mayan city in the Bahamas and commit sex crimes in it. That's Peter Nigard. And he got taken down because he built a parking lot on a richer guy's land. Yep. What a real world timeline we're in that would a good way for that to all go. Yeah. This is the best economic system the world has ever seen. Again, Lewis Bacon, if you're listening and thinking of suing us, I have nothing but respect and happiness that you took him down. You needed to be taken down. I'm just frustrated that one of like five different countries legal systems didn't do it first. Outstanding. Good stuff. So I guess if you ever encounter a man with hundreds of millions of dollars who is horribly harming people, hope that he pisses off a richer man or hear me out. You now know that they carry a lot of cash. You could get the, I'm going to, yep, anyway, yep. Yep. There's a way. There's a way. 30 straight bleeped seconds. And then we roll out. All right. Margaret, you want to plug anything here? I have a book called We Won't Be Here Tomorrow. I have a podcast like Live Like The Orals Dying. I have another podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff. And I have a dog named Rintraugh and I love my dog. Great dog, solid dog. Love Rintraugh so much. Learned how to herd baby goats today. Yeah. A natural. A natural. Just a immediately knew how to do it. Speaking of things that are known, I have a book too. It's called After the Revolution. You can Google that and AK Press together. It's a good find a place to buy it or type it into any of the various book related websites and stores that you go to. They all sell it. You can buy it and then it will be yours and then you will own a piece of my soul. It's a, which is either punk carry out. It's a black magic or whatever. Yep. It also contains a complete manual on how to, um, oh, no, wait, that's a spoiler. No, that's a spoiler. And also a federal crime. So we're going to just bounce for today. All right. Bye, everyone. Bye. Behind the bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You have a dark obsession. You love true crime. And I Heart Podcasts has gathered the best true crime all in one channel, I Heart True Crime Plus. It's packed with podcasts about murder cases, missing persons, serial killers and more. So there's always something disturbingly good to binge and share. I Heart True Crime Plus subscribers also enjoy ad-free listening, early access to select episodes and exclusive bonus content. Subscribe to I Heart True Crime Plus today exclusively on Apple Podcasts. 13 Days of Halloween, Doubles Night Do Not Need Your House Do Not Answer The Door If You Hear A Bumper Night Do Not Go Investigate. Season 3 of the Horror Fiction Podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Oh my God, he's going to get left behind. He's going to spend the night out here. Starring Carter Rockwood. Are you kidding me? You know what night it is? Do you hear of a radio? And Clancy Brown. There are things in the night that would love to get their bony hands on a boy like you. Listen to 13 Days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Curtis Fittis in Jackson. And I'm Charlie Webster. Listen to the podcast surviving El Chapo, the incredible true story of the identical twins from Chicago, who built America's biggest drug trafficking empire. The other reason El Chapo is now in prison and they've never spoken publicly until now. My brother had the only legal recording of Chapo's mom. Listen to surviving El Chapo, the twins who brought down a drug lord on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.