Behind the Bastards

There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.

Part Two: Josef Mengele & The Nazi Doctors

Part Two: Josef Mengele & The Nazi Doctors

Thu, 13 Apr 2023 10:00

Matt and Robert continue their discussion of Joey Mengs, and the collapse of the German Medical Establishment into Nazi terror.



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So, Matt, Sophie, I've been thinking about playing around with some of these, these AI's that everybody's getting into where you can like have them generate images and shit, right? Yeah. Seems kind of cool but I haven't done it yet because I can't get a specific prompt out of my head which is a hybrid of, of, of, of, of Epstein and Carly Rae Jepsen. That's just called Carly Rae Jepstein. I don't know why it won't leave my head. It's an intrusive thought. I can't get rid of it. But yeah, yeah. So. I bet they could do a great job. AI, you know, they, they make all sorts of combinations. I love it. You're a little, I mingle over here. Call me maybe same song with Carly Rae Jepsen. Yeah. Different, different, different subtext. Yeah. Um. Oh, God. No, you're going to get in trouble for that. We're bleeping that. Look, we, we will, we will, this. But I, yeah, I, I did, I did have a little red corvette parody I did about Jeffrey Epstein that people did not appreciate, man. I'm just saying, you know, that was, if it's parody song, I feel like parody law. That's what I felt. But when I sang, well, they're all wrong. I'm not even going to sing the second verse because we're bleeping all of this. We're cutting a large, oh boy. That was a fun 45 seconds of material that would have ended both of our careers. I'm at. Yeah, that was great. I'm trying to die. So, you know, and me, you know, I'm like, Jar Jar. You and I both got the, oh, wow. You stopped me for making my next joke, which was going to be to say that we'd both contrapt at the Epstein. Oh, get it. I get it. That's when you get drunk and make Jeffrey Epstein jokes that get you canceled. Yeah. Get it. That's not a bad one, okay? I didn't hate it. I didn't hate it. But my God, we have to end a lot out of this beginning. We've been referring for 45 years. We have. We have. And all 45 years have been cut. If you want to hear the cut versions, go to Oh, yeah. The truth behind the bastards. Yeah. This is where Matt Lieben. Matt Lieben, I have a weekly podcast where we do our B-sides with Jordan Peterson. We drink a single pint of cider. We don't sleep for 27 days. It's a great time. So let's move on from the unpleasant story. You're making Epstein jokes and you're laughing about it. Look, Matt. You laugh about it. We have to move on from the depressing tale of Jordan Peterson to talk about a less sad individual, Joseph Mangala. Oops. So in his early days at school, Mangala still leaned towards dentistry as a career due to the fact again, his hometown had no dentists. But of course, it's his conversation. They asked with his friend Julius Dysbach, who's a year older than him, who tells him dentistry is to specialize. You should do a broader thing. You like anthropology. There's a degree program in anthropology and genetics. Just do that. So he decides to take his friends advice. Some people will argue that Mangala was a narcissist. I can't diagnose anybody with anything. It's certainly a thing that gets brought up by including by professionals who go over his notes and stuff because he wrote a memoir. And he's laying a lease on the line. And he's definitely had ADHD if TikTok has taught me anything. Oh, for sure. He had that ADHD. He actually used your keys. Yeah. So I don't really know how to finish that joke, Matt. But what I do know is that David Marwell will point out that like there's evidence kind of in his later writings that he sort of mythologizes this conversation with his friend Dysbach where he Dysbach's like, hey, maybe consider doing a broader thing. He writes, quote, despite the circumstances, a casual conversation. Mangala's choice was not superficial. Indeed, he claims it awakened a passion in him. I had no idea then of the many cited nature of medicine, but the kindled flame of enthusiasm would retain its warmth, if not its brilliant luminosity forever. How was it possible in so short a time to transform someone who was one could almost say resigned into someone who was enchanted? Mangala answered his own question by suggesting that his friend had unlocked a potential that was already present within him. Dysbach was a magician filled with the beauty, grandeur, and high values of his science and art who did not speak of the practical possibilities of medicine or the possibility for employment. Rather, he knew only, probably quite unconsciously, how to incite my scientific curiosity and how to translate it into enthusiasm for such a versatile subject. He did it only to tell me which subjects I would need to take in the first semester, and my decision was unshakable, is if I had never even thought of another subject to study. Mangala elevated the intervention of his friend at just the right moment to mythic proportions, comparing the encounter to that of Athena visiting Odysseus in the form of a deer. The eerie fact that he never saw his friend again caused him to muse that perhaps it really had been Athena in disguise. That dude definitely just said, I gotta get the fuck away from him. Bepo, the student is fucking really. There's just like talking, Bepo's like, maybe I should be a dentist. And he's like, I don't know, you seem more interested in anthropology. Are you a Greek god? Are you magic? You know what, man? I'm gonna go to another country. I feel like Germany's not in a good market. You have a guy in a flame inside my soul, a flame that tells me to do horrible deeds. I can just imagine like Dysbach becomes like a like a pediatrician or something. Moves to Iowa, you know, 1945. He's like waking up in the morning, puts on the radio, he's got to cup a coffee, story about mangola comes on, he's like, oh shit. Oh boy, I can't tell anybody about this. Oh. Oh. God. Damn it. Yeah. Don't inspire. I never knew him. I don't know there you are. Never knew him. No, no, no. My name is Dysbach, not Dysbach. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, no, you get the wrong guy, wrong guy. I've never been to Germany. So, I don't know, the message of this is never inspire your friends. If your friends say I want to be a dentist, say, yeah, teeth fucking rule, bro. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I am not getting involved. You never know where that fucking branch. I don't know what the fuck you should do. Are you talking to me? I'm not a thing. I fuck off. Yeah. Yeah, if a friend never asks you what to do with their life, tell them, I am not a God. I don't know. World needs janitors, man. Yeah. Like, yeah. Pretty much never done anything wrong, so. Do something simple and valuable. Yes. So, Mangle is first few years in school where characterized by a growing obsession with genetics and evolution. The men who tutored him first in Munich and then in Frankfurt were at a hearingse of a school of evolutionary theory that believed modern society and social justice movements had corrupted the purity of Darwinian evolution. There's a big attitude among the Nazis, very similar wording to what the right user today that social justice, which they called it, was a Jewish invention, right? Right. And it was specifically part of an insidious Jewish plot because if you believe all the shit about race science, then doing stuff like feeding the starving, like putting vagrants in housing, you're doing that to weaken the bloodline of the Germans by allowing those people to persist and breed. And so it's an attempt to betray Germany for the next war. If you've wondered why are the social justice stuff on the right, like where a lot of that comes from, that's a big part of it. Yeah. And then you scratch it a little bit and then all of a sudden you get into Judeo-Bulchivism with some weird shit, central Marxism. And then there's for some reason a star of David and you're like, oh, that's what there's there's. So one of Joseph's first mentors was Dr. Ernst Rudin, who was a prominent backer of the idea that doctors should proactively destroy what he called life devoid of value. This would evolve into the Nazi concept of life unworthy of life, which is kind of the most direct translation of how Germans talked about the Nazis talked about this in German. Rudin would go on to author the first Nazi compulsory sterilization laws, which were instituted in July of 1933. This is seven months after the enabling act, I think, or seven months after Hitler rises to power, I think it's a little less than that after the enabling act. But that should, the fact that this happens so quickly, this is almost the first thing that Nazis do. Should give you an idea of the centrality that Nazis placed on this idea. The law for the protection of hereditary health provided the first list of conditions that qualified one for mandatory sterilization. Schizophrenia, manic depression, epilepsy, hereditary blindness, deafness, Huntington's disease, all physical deformities, and what was called feeble-mindedness, alcoholism, drug addiction, these are all believed to be hereditary, and thus problems that could only be stopped by excising them from the human genome. The fact that alcoholism is on there is funny if you've ever liked, spent 35 seconds in Berlin. What a single German. You can buy a leader of beer for two dollars and drink it on a train. A clarified question. What do you consider alcoholism? You just want to know how many beers were talking about. Yeah, I agree very degenerate. Anyone having more than 16 to 20 beers a day, you know? Meadels have to die, let's, you know. 15. Yeah, that's some good. It's always fun to do jokes like that with the Germans because, you know, they gave up the right to be offended. Absolutely. Yeah, it's like, I don't know, Texans. So casual observers of the Nazi regime often accuse Hitler of being obsessed with racial purity and believing that Germans were Aryan supermen. Now, it's usually not worth like just correcting people, but that is fundamentally wrong. That is not what Hitler believed. He did not believe the Germans were Aryan supermen. From instead, he believed in the perfect ability of Aryan-descended people like the Germans through careful scientific guidance. And that is different. He's not saying we are supermen. He is saying using science and breeding, we can become supermen by excising these degenerate influences from our bloodline and encouraging people who are more pure to breed together. Right? That is a different thing. Yeah, he was doing a manifestation, you know? He was doing wellness, basically. Yeah. I think the reason it is worth kind of pointing out why the more common belief is wrong is because the common belief is just racism, just like, hey, we're better than everybody, which is less unsettling and less toxic than what the Nazis believed, which is we can make peace. Like a lot of the Holocaust comes because we are attempting to make people better, right? That is what Mingle, the people he kills will die in service of this goal. So it is important to get that right. Now, obviously Hitler is a massive advocate and supporter of the German medical establishment. That was the most important part of the German state to him. And one of his first speeches as fear Hitler addressed the National Socialist German Physicians League or NSDAB. He told them that lawyers and engineers and architects were all replaceable in his vision of the future. None of those career paths were crucial to Nazism succeeding, but national socialist doctors were utterly necessary. He told them, I cannot do without you for a single day, not a single hour. If not for you, if you fail me, then all is lost. For what good are our struggles if the health of our people is in danger? Key to this idea is the concept that doctors should not be concerned primarily with the health of the individual. For this is secondary to the health of the valk or people. This means that a Nazi doctor is not violating his hypocritic oath if he sterilizes or kills people as long as those people are threats to the well-being of the people's racial community. Right? Fun. Yeah. That is how they justif, I'm not saying they're not, obviously they are in fact violating the hypocritic oath. But this is how they see it, right? An early NSDAB guideline stated, from the first day we have made it clear that the major turnabout in the world view of our days, an essential portion of which is vanquishing the individual through experiencing the people, must be the guiding principle of the morality and ethics of the medical profession. That is a crucial phrase, vanquishing the individual through experiencing the people. That's the Holocaust. That is the Holocaust in a nutshell. Young Joseph would spend the best days of his career vanquishing individuals in order to support the valk. He was not an immediately committed Nazi though. For in those last days of Vimar the German nationalist right was large enough to fill several movements that did not all see eye to eye. Rather than joining the Nazis early on in March of 1931, he joined the youth wing of the Stahlhelm, an ex-soldier organization who marched in uniform and were kind of like a more organized, you know, like the Oath Keepers, how they're mostly like silly bastards. This is the Oath Keepers if they had all spent like four years drowning in the blood of their best friends in the country. Right, exactly. Yeah. Watching all of their homies get sucked into mudbugs and sucking and mustard gas. Yeah, if the Oath Keepers had been at J6, they would not have been turned away by Mason tear gas. Exactly. Or yeah, if the Stahlhelm, sorry, had been at J6, not the Oath Keepers, they're a bunch of seditious babies. Not to praise them, these guys are far right their assholes. They massacre communists in the street. They're horrible people. They're just frightening. So as he progresses through his studies in the 1930s, he comes to conceive of himself as a biological soldier for the health of the Volk, which is actually a direct quote from the Reich Health Office President Hans Reiter, who added that the destiny of the German Volk rests entirely in the hands of the German physician. Mangleist professors were not all committed Nazis, of course, nor was all of this genetic science that he studied based on pseudoscientific principles. One of his teachers was Carl von Frisch, a zoologist who authored pioneering studies of honeybees and won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1973. It's Frisch, who mangle the credits with sparking his lifelong fascination with zoology, quote, in such a lasting way that I have kept this fire my entire life and have all too often been warmed by it. Frisch would come into contact, and again, Frisch is one of the guys who inspires Mangle to go down this path. He is not a Nazi. He actually gets in trouble with the Nazis a number of times because he insists on employing Jewish assistance after they come to power, many of whom are women. He employs a lot of Jewish female scientists during the Third Reich. He almost gets fired and gets brought back because he's just such a good scientist. But he actually protects a lot of Jewish people by basically sheltering them through his fame. Another scientist who teaches Mangle and is this kind of guy is Otto Violent. Violent is a chemistry professor. Mangle actually does not like Violent. He thinks he's brilliant, but he's a bad teacher because he's just more interested in his research. Violent actually wins a Nobel Prize. He's a very, very good scientist. And during the Nazi regime, Violent also shields Jewish students using his notoriety to protect them from the Holocaust. And that's part of the complexity of this is that these guys are not hardcore race scientists. Obviously, they're just geneticists. They're doing that kind of science, but it all gets lumped in together. So a number of the people that Mangle admires are folks who will risk their lives to protect Jews during the Holocaust. Just again, complicated. Yeah, yeah. It's, I mean, it sounds like the recurring theme is just like, you know, you're taking just, you're picking and choosing a little bit of facts from each, you know, exactly, exactly. Exactly. Each study to try to bolster your weird race science thing. So yeah, whereas as opposed to like Fritsch and Violent who are very focused have like really are have become incredible experts on a specific thing, right, deep, deep rigor. He's just kind of picking out the cart shed and ignoring the whole, I'm in a shield, a bunch of Jews during the Holocaust because it's fucked up stuff that they do. See, this one you should be a dentist. Yes, it's a special team, but you know what, you won't be a Nazi. Yeah, maybe, I don't know. There were a lot of not one of the guys he works with at Auschwitz is in fact a dentist side of that. A dentist is god. Yeah, there goes my dad. And he's teeth on that fight enough. Anyway, Mangle, imbibed the scientific lessons of these men, but obviously not their morality. Unfortunately, this was also the case for the teacher he respected most as an undergraduate. Siegfried Maliere, the director of the Munich University anatomical institute. I'm going to quote from David Marwell's book Mangle here. Maliere or Maliere, whatever, counseled his students that a good physician must conceive of body and soul as a unity. He spoke of the majesty of death that they would encounter in their work. Later, when Maliere instructed them in the anatomy lab, Mangle wrote that the great teacher wanted them to have a deep, even intuitive understanding of anatomy and not just memorize terms. He definitely demonstrated what was visible through dissection to the functional relationship and the structural efficiency of the components of the human body. Mangle was particularly moved by Maliere's introduction to the dissection labs. My entire life, even in the most difficult situations, I can hear his solemn words from that time when he spoke of the rights of the dead that we should always approach the dead with dignity and gravity. As long as they're dead. I mean, he doesn't really do that. It's weird how much he idolizes his guy because that is... I would argue not how he treats the dead, although I will explain his argument a little more later when we get to that portion of it. So during his first years in college, Joseph still suffered from the after effects of blood poisoning that had darkened his adolescence. The future arbiter of racial health was not well enough to walk the distance between his various classes, so his parents bought him a car. This proved to be the saving grace of his social life, having a car made it easier to make friends, or at least to hang around with other young people who needed a ride. This is like the exact type of guy. He's the car guy. He's the car guy. He's the car guy. He's really intense. He writes a lot of poetry. He's kind of fucking weirdo, but we're all going to the beach. We got to get fucking Joey. Yeah, I mean, my version of that was the car guy who was 10 years older than us and would buy us beer, but... Yeah. Same kind of guy, really. I'm sure he... Maybe he's a Nazi now. So in his memoirs, Mengele remembered this period as a lonely one. Quote, it is precisely this feeling of being alone, the lack of an intimate connection to family, the lack of a true friendship that I felt so bitterly in the first few semesters. He notes that he engaged in superficial pleasure seeking, using his access to money to engage in the trappings of a social life while living a shallow existence. Mengele claimed that during his early college years he did not seek an honest friendship. He claimed failing to overcome his isolation disguised this inner inability in an easily misinterpreted preservation of the remoteness of cool and personality and unsocial arrogance, which may have had the effect of discouraging all who otherwise came to me in friendship and affection. In other words, he can't let anybody in, so he pretends that he's better than everyone else so that he doesn't have to actually get to know anybody and accept vulnerability. Yeah. I mean, a normal adolescent struggles, you know, save for the whole, you know, the race science stuff. Aside from the race science, yeah, pretty understandable. Yeah. So I mean, at this point in his life, you could write a nice little coming of age novel as well. Sure. Yeah. I'm actually working on a series of Nazi coming of age novels. Oh, yeah, no, it's going to be going to be good. I'm going to be. Yeah, exactly. That's what we don't have enough of. Why not say Nazi books? Yeah. Yeah. It is. There's a series of detective books that I read from time to time. The Bernie Gunther books, which are like about a detective who is not a Nazi, but is first in the VMR state and that is in the Nazi state. And because he's such a good detective, he gets like brought in by Nazis when there's these murder mysteries or assassinations of Nazi. He's like forced into the SS. It's a really, there's some good books. There's some weird stuff in a couple of them. Yeah. It's firmly anti-Nazi. He portrays them all as monsters, but he has to do it. There's some sweatiness to explain how are you in the SS and like not part of Warcraft? It's weird. But there's some pretty good books. I like his history. It's about anything. It's a fiction. You can go in any world you want and instead you want to make something, I don't know, guys. It's hard to explain. You really... So the books, the earlier books in the series were he's like a detective in Vimar Berlin during the fighting between Nazis and Communists. There's some really cool stuff there because he knows this stuff about the historical period. Some of the later stuff gets a little weirder. But you know, if you're looking for a fucking Nazi-themed detective novel, there you go. So starting in 1934, Mengele began taking pediatric medicine courses with the whimsically named Dr. Franz Hamburger, a proponent of right-wing, Vokish medicine who joined the Nazi party that same year. His clinic advocated for euthanasia and regularly sent disabled children to a nearby hospital. We're hundreds of them were murdered by the state. Oh, God. Oh, God. Hamburger doing war crimes and I'm just like all I can picture is Mayor Micheese. Yeah. It's really... Well, you know, Mayor Micheese was actually had some strong opinions on racial hygiene, which is a big part of why all of his patties are 100% beef. But anyway, it was his work for Dr. Hamburger that would get Mengele his first kind of experience with twin studies, which is going to become... He's going to become a lifelong sort of... He's going to develop a lifelong fascination for twins. And we're going to talk about why an a scientific sense that was the case. But first, Matt, you want to talk about some products, some services? I love products. I love services. I love being told what to buy and what to do it. We are often told by our marketing department that there's nothing advertisers like more than being led into an ad by talking about Joseph Mengele's first twin studies. That really... That really moves the subscription boxes. Yeah. I mean, you know, people hear twins and they get immediately horned up. Yeah, man. Once you're a twin. Yeah. Speaking of twins, we got a two for the price of one deal. We'll probably bleep some of that. Ah, here's some ads. This show was sponsored by BetterHelp. 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They have over 20 years experience in the industry with over 2 million treatments performed. LASIC is all they do so they can focus their expertise on your eyes. So if you think that now might be the right time to try LASIC Plus, you can get 20% off when you're treated in April. That's over $900 off when treating both eyes. Just visit to schedule your free consultation. We're back. Then and now, then being Nazi times, twin studies are considered incredibly useful for studying the difference between, for example, nature and nurture on health outcomes. There's two kinds of twins. There's identical twins and fraternal twins. Identical twins come from the same baby goo thing, zygote or whatever. Thus differences because they are genetically identical, the differences between them can be attributed. It's either going to be an environmental or a social factor. When you have a health difference in outcome, do you have a twin? I didn't know that. Yeah, the twin sister. That's the other kind. So you're not as useful to Josephine. He's still would have been interested in you guys. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, but you would have found a different reason. Yeah. Well, they use both kinds of twins. Twins are useful for studying hereditary illnesses, right, among other things. Mangle is first attempt to study twins involved the daughters of a colleague and ended in awkward failure. He comes over to her house and he's like, hey, can I talk to your daughters? And she's like, what do you want to talk to him about? Science stuff like twins. And they're like weirded out by them. They don't agree to work with them. Good parenting call. Not letting Joseph mangle in here your twins. Maybe a Nazi, but I'm not a fucking weirdo. Get the hell out of here, Joey. And the fact that he does this so awkwardly is kind of evidence of the fact that while twin studies are incredibly valuable, scientists who are in this field are always looking for groups of twins that they can carry out studies on. It's like number one, it's always hard to get parents to agree for that. There's a limit to the kind of studies you can do when you consider them human beings. And there's not that many twins. So that's a problem for guys like Joseph. It's not always going to be a problem for guys like Joseph, but it's a problem for them at this point. On April 5, 1933, Hitler announced that German doctors needed to move with all energy towards solving the race question. The center of the scientific effort was again based around the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Anthropology, Human Genetics, and Eugenics. In 1934, another bout of ill health forced Mangle to quit the stall-home, which by then had been absorbed into the Nazi brown shirts. He had not yet joined the party officially. He decided his physical weakness meant he needed to dedicate his energy towards his studies. And so he did as Gerald Posner writes. The man who gave Mangle, his first real leg up on the academic ladder, was Professor Tim Mollinson of Munich University. His experience in the field of heredity and racial hygiene led Mollinson to claim that he could tell if a person had Jewish forebears simply by looking at a photograph. In 1935, Mollinson awarded Mangle a PhD for his thesis entitled, Racial Morphological Research on the Lower Joss Section of Four Racial Groups. Tidled, just look at him. He had just looked at these guys. You tell me that's not a Jew? Never. I know a Jew, but he's a Jew. You can always tell. Posner will argue that Mangle is report, number one, he's like, Mollinson is pretty unscientific in a lot of his claims. Mangle is report is very scientific, it's well argued. It's not explicitly racist. Like he's not dropping a bunch of slurs. He's being like, look, we have all these jaw bones from people from this part of the world and they have this and whatever. That's how Posner describes the study. Mollinson himself was more critical of Mangle's study, calling his work clumsy, although acknowledging it fulfilled his requirements. So, Moll, his thesis advisor is like, it's not great, but I guess you get a PhD anyway. You didn't fail, so here you go. Now, given the fact that the guy who judged his work as clumsy was like, yeah, it looks like a Jew to me, dude. I don't know if you want to take that as an actual criticism. That said, so that we can actually criticize this. In 2008, a group of modern geneticists analyzed Mangle's thesis and they pointed out that he makes a lot of very basic statistical errors and failures of analysis. And most kind of the biggest thing to critique about this is that his obsession with the concept of race has no grounding in objective science. So, like, there's not really a center of hard science to what he's doing here. Mangle's in-person questioning went better. He was awarded his doctor of philosophy degrees, summa cum laude, after being drilled by a board of judges or whatever, in November of 1935. Now, this is the point at which things started to look up for the new doctor. His health took a turn for the better, as he opted for the time-honored strategy of just forcing himself to sprint until he peed blood. This actually worked somehow, so I don't know. Yeah, no medical science is weird that way, where it's just like, you know, people would do the leeches and stuff and then sometimes they'd be cured and you'd be like, I guess. Look, I won't agree with Joseph Mangle on anything but this. Sprint until you piss blood. That's my medical advice for all of our listeners. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. That's my Pilates. We actually sell a line of running shorts that just have a red line right down the middle so that no one will notice. You're just like, no, these are just my running shorts. It's a racing stripe. It's merged. Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. So Joseph's first paid medical job was at the University of Leipzig Medical Clinic. He passed his state medical exam in the summer of 36 and he worked there for four months as a junior doctor. This was a requirement for his degree. You know, it's kind of the first step of becoming an MD as you have to spend some time at a hospital. He hates this. Working with live human patients is not his strong suit. He finds the work kind of degrading. The only benefit as far as Joseph saw it was that he met a young woman named Irene Schoenbein, the daughter of a professor who he falls in love with. Now Irene is 19 and Joseph is 25 and shortly after they fall for each other, Joseph receives the first big break of his career. An appointment to work at the new Wright Third Reich Institute for Heredity, Biology and Racial Purity in Frankfurt under the prominent Nazi doctor, Ottmar von Verschur. This is how we do normal and good. Yeah. Yeah. It's a normal fun name to have. Certainly. Not a sketchy ass Nazi name. No. And Ottmar, he had worked at the Kaiser Well-Humans Institute. We talked about him last episode. He's the guy who's really interested in twins. And I'm going to quote now from the book Racial Hygiene Medicine under the Nazis. In the Third Reich, twin studies were lavishly funded as part of an effort to prove that heredity was the key to many human talents and imperfections. Twin studies purportedly demonstrated the heredibility of everything from epilepsy, criminality, memory, and hernias to tuberculosis, cancer, schizophrenia, and divorce. In 1933, Ottmar, Freyher von Verschur, published a book purporting to provide exact ratios of relative influence of heredity and environment in a wide range of bodily traits. He derived his data from the study of several thousand identical and non-identical twins. Verschur studies were followed by hundreds of others. By 1936, Otto Reche's Institute for the Study of Racial Volk had examined 1,250 pairs of twins, according 42 separate physical or physiognomic traits for each pair. Eugene Fisher called twin studies the single most important research tool in the field of racial hygiene. Verschur called twin research the sovereign method for genetic research in humans. Rachel Hygienists were able to convince Nazi authorities that twin studies warranted substantial government support. In 1939, Interior Minister Wilhelm Frick ordered the registration of all twins, triplets or quadruplets, born in the Reich for the express purpose of research to isolate the effects of nature and nurture. I'm sorry, all of this sounds incredibly horny to me. The constant focus on twins and identical twins just, I don't know why in my head this is just very horny-pilled. Yeah, it's also weird that you're registering your twins, like you give birth to twins and the doctor comes up, you got a license for those twins. I need to put them in this database of twins. No reason. No reason, it's fine. So, while Molison had viewed Mengele as a mediocre student, Vanverschur treats him like a protégé. Now, Vanverschur is also a devoted Nazi. He credited Hitler as being the first statesman to recognize hereditary biology and race Hygien. Vanverschur didn't just consider himself and his institute to be organs of science, though. They were part of the National Defense apparatus. He defined their role as caring for German genes to provide such a strong basis that it will withstand any attacks from outside. Now that Mengele was working at the heart of Nazi race science, joining the party had become compulsory. He saw it as a moral necessity. The problem was that after 1933, the Nazis had closed party membership, worried their ascent to power would draw on a bunch of Johnny-Cumbly-Litley fascists, who wanted social benefits of being in the party, but weren't committed. Now there were ways around the block, and Mengele's prior membership in the Stahlhelm ensured him special consideration. He was approved in 1938 and became party member number 5574974. So, that's good. That's not a bad number. Yeah, that's not an early adopter, but yeah, he got there. So his first duty for the fascist state was helping the new judicial system determine who was and who was not. A Jew, cohabitating with an area in spouse. It's illegal to be in an inter-race marriage as the Nazis consider it. So you have a bunch of cases where people say like, I'm not Jewish or whatever, so it's cool for me to stay married. And you have to determine whether or not they meet the legal definition of a Jew under the Nuremberg race laws. That's fun. That's fun. Yeah, it's super fun. Yeah. So there's a known as me having dinner with my Jewish side of the family and just being like, well, you're not really Jewish or shut up. Yeah, so it's a long line. Yeah, a long line of that. So in the Nazi version of this, you can't just, like it's not as clear as just like looking at the law to determine whether or not someone counts as Jewish in this. You have to have like- That's too bad. I just looked at him and I tell him, I can tell. No, I mean, that is actually me. Matt, you joke. That is actually the standard. Is she having a doctor be like, yeah, it looks like a Jew to me. So most of the, it's one of those things where like this guy, Von Vershoer, one of the things he does is he's helping the courts determine who isn't as Jewish. He has a bunch of his assistants helping. Most of them are just like Molison. They're like, yeah, looks like a Jew to me or nah, that guy doesn't in the Jew. Bangala is develops a reputation for being obsessive about this where he's doing all the genealogy. He's like spinning hours looking at pictures of their jaws from different angles. And it's actually as a result of this, his judgments are often beneficial to the person being tried. Overall, he found that they were not a full Jew to thirds of the time. This is not due to a lack of racism, but more to the fact that he was weirdly obsessed with jaws. There was one odd case in July of 1937 that biographers were all, we'll often bring up. When Mengele was asked to analyze a man with an Aryan mother and a legally Jewish father who claimed that his real dad had been an Aryan and had had an affair with his mother. So this guy on paper, his dad is Jewish, but he's like, nah, it's not my real dad. My mom was sleeping around. So it's cool for me to be married. So this is kind of a thorny case. And Mengele decided that the man was a full Jew. But the court disagreed because they were like, well, based on just like the report you wrote, you say there's actually a pretty good chance that this guy's claims are true. And if that's the case, we're going to give him the benefit of the doubt, which points to kind of the fact that these Nazi race courts are a lot more inconsistent and messy than you might think. Because this hierarchy they're trying to develop is not based on rigorous silence. It's all weirdo speculating about jaws and ears and shit. I'm going to quote though from Mengele. A lot of people do in the look at him test and then they look at him and they are arguing amongst each other. That's going to be a fucking annoying boring life to just be the person who's just like trying to, you know, like always over the dinner table, you're just arguing with people over pictures of various possible Jews. No, he has a Bohemian earlobe. Yeah, no, that just a Roman nose. God damn it. He's a lapelander, can't you tell? Good old time you racism. So he did, yeah, I'm going to quote now from Mengele unmasking the angel of death. Mengele's examination included where possible a comparison of 12 different areas, including blood type and factors, eyes and eyebrows, as well as finger and footprints. He determined that there was nothing to rule out the paternity of Alexander's legal father, that some areas of similarity made the paternity probable and that there was no pronounced similarity between the photograph of the alleged biological father and the son. So it's a peculiar situation to try and analyze the decisions of a Nazi court wherein both sides are Nazis, but one side saying, nah, this guy is not a Jew. He could stay married and Mengele is saying, oh, he's definitely a Jew. He should, you know, be arrested. I don't know what to do. Yeah, father, this guy is just like, everyone agrees I'm a cuck at least. That's fun. Yeah. So this guy, Vershure, when the court rules against Mengele, Vershure is angry, saying that their decision undermined the Nuremberg laws by turning a Jew into a half Jew. David Marwell continues, Dr. Walter Gross of the Racial Policy Office of the Nazi Party responded to Vershure by criticizing Mengele for the lack of clear and precise information and his racial determination and for his fickle testimony at trial. He concluded, I do not think that the court would have ignored a totally clear position of the assistant, Mengele. Mengele must have learned from his mistake, wise noted, since he was unable to find any other instances where the court questioned a racial certificate that he issued. So you know, he learns from this. That's good. Little hero's journey there for our re-scientist friend, Joseph Mengele. That's good. That's good. Isn't that good? Yeah. That's nice. You know what else is nice, Matt? What's nice and great. Mmm. Oh, is it products and services? That's right. You know, while Nazi race science was often arbitrary and ascientific, the science that our advertisers use to target you with the perfect ad is flawless. So don't question it. Don't ask anything. Don't think. Just give them your money. You know? This show was sponsored by BetterHelp. Life is a process of learning more things about yourself. For example, I recently learned that reading about terrible people all the time can sometimes make you sad. And when you're sad, it helps to talk to people. If you think you might need to talk to someone, therapy is a great way to do that. It's all about deepening your self-awareness and understanding because sometimes you don't know what you want or why you react the way you do until you talk through things with an objective observer. BetterHelp connects you with a licensed therapist who can take you on that journey of self-discovery from wherever you are. So if you're thinking about starting therapy, BetterHelp might be a good option for you. It's entirely online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. Consider your potential with BetterHelp. Sure, now, in a smokestock hunt to enjoy time, a degree of energy is at first being easy, the treatment took minutes and I was back to work the next day. So now I'm looking forward to my very first full summer without glasses and contacts and I couldn't be more excited. LASIK Plus is a leader in laser vision correction in the United States. They have over 20 years experience in the industry with over two million treatments performed. LASIK is all they do so they can focus their expertise on your eyes. So if you think that now might be the right time to try LASIK Plus, you could get 20% off when you're treated in April. That's over $900 off when treating both eyes. Just visit to schedule your free consultation. That's to schedule your free consultation. The music community is really united for St. Jude. I love that families never receive a bill from St. Jude. Because of that, they can focus on helping their child live. St. Jude shares the breakthroughs it makes. So doctors and scientists worldwide can use that knowledge to save thousands more children. Everybody wearing this shirt is giving a little bit. And it's all that enough to go a long, long way for kids fighting cancer all over the world. Join us in this mission to cure childhood cancer and save lives. Go to to donate and get your own shirt. We're all back. We're all feeling good. Yeah, so the inconsistency and arbitrariness of most Nazi racial designations came with some minor consequences for Mengele himself. As he'd risen to work at Vonverschuers side, he'd made the decision to join the SS. While he should stoffle had started as a simple bodyguard unit for Hitler back in the old street fighting days under Heinrich Himmler's leadership had started to grow into a state within a state dedicated to cultivating and breeding a Nazi racial elite. As such, it was a natural place for an ambitious young race scientist like Mengele to join. Doctors actually joined the SS in greater numbers than members of any other vocation. Did you know that? I did not know that, but that makes a lot of sense. It makes me sad and angry. And I hate doctors. Do you want to guess how much more likely doctors were to be in the SS than normal employed German males? I couldn't possibly know the answer to that. It is seven times. Seven times likelier than any. Yeah. So an underdiscussed story from Nazi Germany is that not only did doctors love the SS, Germany has at the time the Nazis come to power, the most advanced and progressive medical system in the world. Fully half of all doctors in Germany joined the Nazi party. Physicians joined the Nazi party at a rate higher than members of any other profession. By comparison, only about 20% of German teachers joined the party. Doctors in Germany cannot get enough of the Nazis. You know what? Hitler actually was kind of the original podcaster, Matt. The eight off Hitler experience. He was the first politician in at least in Europe to really make great use of the radio and of microphones. Him, look, can you pull up that clip? Yeah. Yes. Hitler and his buddy that the fucking Brazilian jujitsu expert talking about vaccines. Good stuff. So microchipsons everybody. God podcast Hitler actually makes a ton of sense. But the most essential. Yeah. No, that is absolutely what he would have been doing today. That's not even a question in my mind. He is brought to you by me undies. Life under way. The only one is a specific kind from me. Pure white undies. There's a best. There are berries, berries. Get yourself a bouquet of white chocolate berries. They are very happy today to be hosting some ads from Zivoshington State Highway Patrol. Not quite the organization. I've won some to be yet, but soon they have a very soon. So one of the few things that separated Mengele from his fellow assessment was that. So in the SS, when you join, you have to have your blood group tattooed on your arm, right? Sorry. Is this American Reich? Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's just... Look. Yeah. My whole face is purple for blood. Yeah. Look. I love Dan Carlin, but I'm fighting to stop myself from doing a meme worth the two hands meeting in the middle. And it's like Hitler and Dan Carman. 16-hour podcasts on World War One. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Very different 16-hour podcasts. Let's be clear. Extremely different. Extremely different. They're not at all coming from the same place. No, no. But similar in length, probably. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the few things that's again, so in the SS, you got to get this blood group tattoo on your arm. It's like, it's actually after the war, one of the things that makes it easy to tell who's been in the SS. Sure. Because a lot of them, like, put on normal army uniforms to try to escape. Mangleh does not get this tattoo. And it's his ex-wife would later say it's because he had a habit. His, like, hobby was staring at his shirtless body in the mirror. Like, after he gets healthy and starts to bulk up, he just, like, looking at himself naked. And he can't stand the thought of marring his skin with a tattoo. That is absolutely the most, like, the, like, just default Nazi setting. Yeah. So, like, I'm wearing a mirror and going, I am so fucking strong. It's just, you know, see Andrew Tate. Yeah, exactly. Very, very tady. So, joining Himmler's racial elite came with extra hoops to jump through if you wanted to do something like getting married. For one thing, his fiance Irene had to pass a series of tests to become the wife of an SS man. Now, I know what you're all wondering. Could I be an SS wife? You know, ladies, ladies at home, if you want to know, do you have what it takes to marry an SS man? That's what we're talking about right now. New show on Bravo. The Real Housewives of the SS. Oh, boy, that is a fucking... So, the first thing she asked you, she had to get two recommendations from men who knew her. And both of those men had to fill out questionnaires to prove that she had what it took to be an SS wife. She was rated by them as being very reliable, very fond of children, comradly, and not domineering, and efficient. Irene also had to undergo a body type analysis. And I'm going to... Yeah, boy outy. Here's Ears Marwell again. One section of the form called for an inventory of 10 physical characteristics with a list of associated values in descending order of desirability. For instance, for body type, the physician could choose muscular, athletic, plump, slim, or puny, with the first clearly being the most positive. For eye color, the following choices were available. Blue, gray, greenish, light brown, and dark brown. These physical attributes, thought to be expressions of the racial mixture that the person represented, were observed and noted. In Irene's case, Dr. Schwarzweller awarded her 9 out of 10 of the attributes with the highest value, and only one hair form as the second highest. Sleek, which was one step down from straight, but better than wavy, curly, or crinkly. I love that. It's like... You're almost perfect. There's a little Jew in your hair. Yeah, I'm going to have to dock you a little bit for the Jew in that hair, there. Yeah, yeah. But don't worry, we have a straight iron cross that we will use to straighten that little Jew out. Let's get the kinks out, so just be... So, the combination of these features led Schwarzweller to conclude that Irene was primarily of the Nordic race with some denaric influences. She was found to be an excellent health, and perhaps of key significance, likely to be able to bear children, noting her wide pelvis. That's good. You have wide pelvis, you have a very nice feet. They relate. Little binaric, but you know... That's a race for Nazis, no. Don't worry about that. We know about that one. Honestly, Irene, I was searching for a term, but then I pulled up my Nazi thessaurous. So... There's all sorts of categorization you've done here. Wow. We've got words. So, even with all of this was not enough for the SS. Irene also needed to prove that she was racially pure, free of any Jewish influence. To say, a SS paperwork, this meant providing information about her family line that dated back to the peace of Westphalia in 1648. This was the end of the 30 years war, which killed millions of German people. And set in motion kind of one... Like, one of the more direct things to set in motion, the series of events that leads to the creation of the German states. So, that's why they pick it. The problem for Irene came with the fact that in 1886, her grandfather had been born out of wedlock. And his father, his father, could not be verified. Now, there was no evidence of direct taint. So Irene was approved to marry Mangala. But because her ancestry could not be sufficiently confirmed, she and Joseph were unable to add their names to the Sippenbuch der SS. Honestly, that's unfair. I know. It's fucked up. I'm going to go on and say big yikes to that. Yeah. So a Sippenbuch, if you guys aren't like me and Matt, because we're big Sippenbuch guys. Oh, we love big Sippenbuch. Yeah. It's a book, a genealogical clan book that lists your ancestry. Every SS member was supposed to carry one, but there's a grand Sippenbuch for the entire organization that lists all of the family lines. Because him there was kind of planning on breeding a new nightly nobility, more or less. Yeah. So this is like the highest honor in the SS, and Mangala just doesn't quite meet the bar, which is sad. Honestly, it's one of the bigger tragedies of the era. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. So the good news is that Mangala had little time to dwell on this, because the 1930s were coming to an end. And events in the wider world were about to turn him from a simple bigoted piece of shit into one of the greatest mass killers in medical history. Oh, yeah. All right. So your telling me this podcast is going to get worse. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's about to get a lot worse. So July of May is, I'm sorry. No, no more jar jar. I just, I know that the jar jar is coming to an end. Sorry. I'm trying to get creative. Wow. Wow. Wow. There's got to be like a, I mean, it's probably pornographic, but there's got to be jar jar SS like all of the time. Like art out there. Absolutely. And art account out there, who's like, I don't know why people are mad. Yeah. And it's both horny, but also shows like an unsettling degree of understanding of like minutia of SS daily life. They've got their little sippin' books on. Jar Jar has got his blood group tattooed on a sh- can bicep. So in July of 1938, Frankfurt University awards Mangala a full medical degree. He was now a licensed MD as well as APHD. He had a promising career ahead of him in the field of being a racist with a lab coat. But his ambition would not let him simply continue to work as a research scientist while his nation went to war. So he decided to join the Waffen or weapons SS. Now, this is the, because the SS is a bunch of things, right? But the Waffen SS is like the SS that also fights alongside the Vermacht, right? There, there are military organization. This would become one of the war-crimeous units of the war-crimeous army ever to war-crime. And Mangala was dedicated to being a part of it. At the end of 1938, he did three months of basic training with the Vermacht to prepare himself for the rigors ahead. He's been about a year or so serving as basically a national guardsman. And while he's kind of doing this, he's continuing to work with Von Versture on publishing studies about earlobe differences between the races and the line. Just before the invasion of Poland, he wrote a review for a book on detecting congenital heart defects. In this review, he lamented, quote, Unfortunately, the author did not use subjects where the diagnosis could be verified by an autopsy. He's been a lot of time talking about how unfortunate is there weren't enough corpses to study to like fully prove this guy's claims about congenital heart defects. And Alas, he was about to have all of the autopsy subjects he could ever want. But that's going to be in part three. Oh boy, part three. Mm-hmm. There you go. Three more, oh, then. Just two more after this. Yeah, we're good. Oh, you know, it's just a breezy five hours. Yeah, you know, this is we're not that different from Dan Carlin podcast here. We're getting increasingly similar. Absolutely. Hey, you know what, I'm going to be honest, Hitler probably would have done a behind the bastard style podcast with a very different definition of bastards. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, Kissinger still would have been there. But for different reasons, welcome back to my six part series on this Jew who was win the train with me and took the chair that I wanted to sit in. This next series is all about different arts teachers who said I was made. Yeah, it turns out they're made. For the next four weeks, me and my guest Joe Rogan are going to talk about Zivian Academy of Fine Arts. Chapter three, this next one is a short story from New York. No, look, it's a little horny. So yeah, it's about to end this and our other fetish women being stuck in the dryer. Oh boy. Matt. What? Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt, Matt. What was the first baffling internet fetish pornography you ever learned about? Quick sand porn. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah, I discovered that accidentally on YouTube. I don't know how I got there, but it was just a video of a lady slowly sinking hell. Yeah, and I was like, this is so weird. And then after a while, I was like, oh no, I'm horny. And so, you know, I'm in therapy now. That's good. That's good. For me, the quick sample is there's not, you know, there doesn't even need to be titties. It's just the sinking. Yeah. Yeah, it is something else. Sure is. For me, it was, there's actually a similarity here. There's stories about Roy Anderson being wrapped in cling wrap. I don't even know what you're doing with your career. Because I think you can still find the Roy Orbison clean wrap fetish pornography online. Not so bad. You're telling people all over the world. It's not Nazi Sophie. So, I think the Roy Orbison... I never got a good answer on that one. Can you just be cling wrapped and be any? Is it because pretty woman is playing in the background? Yeah, yeah. Don't yuck their yum, Matt, you know? I would never yuck a yum. I would never yuck some people, you know, sometimes you feel like masturbating to Roy Orbison wrapped in cling wrap. Sometimes you don't. Robert. I have so many pluggables. Check out this American right coming to you. Ah! Listen to my TV rewatch podcast, Pod Yourself A Gun. We did the sprannos and now we are just ending season two of the wire. And it is a lot of fun, like great guests and, you know, even if you haven't seen the show, it's fun. But mostly give us five stars in review and say something about Jar Jar. The wire. Hitler would not have liked it. No, he would not have. Ah! Behind the bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Seeing is believing and you're not going to believe how bright and vivid the colors are and the Samsung Neo QLED and OLED TVs powered by the NeuroQuantum processor. Because this is an audio ad. Unless you can see it, which means you already have one. Nice. Samsung. More wow than ever. It's been like five months since I got LASIK and I'm still seeing 2020. LASIK has changed so much about my life. Everything's just a little easier now without glasses and contacts. LASIK Plus is a leader in the laser vision correction industry in the United States with over 20 years experience and over 2 million treatments performed. LASIK's all they do so they can focus their expertise on your eyes. Right now, you can get 20% off when treated in April. That's over $900 off when treating both eyes. Just go to to schedule your free consultation. That's And now the best man. I was going to play in this speech out while I got my oil change but I went to take five and it was a lot faster than I thought so here he goes. Okay. Tim, you were my first friend. Angela, you were my first. I never thought the two of you would make it but I guess love really is blind. No, no, no, I mean in a good way. I take five, your oil change is faster than you think. And now, you can get five, the stay in your car, 10 minute oil change.