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Hey, Robert here. It's been like two months since I had LASIK and I'm still seeing 2020. All I had to do was go in for a consultation, then go in for a maybe 10 minute procedure and then my eyes have been great ever since. You know, I healed up wonderfully. It was very simple, couldn't have been a better experience. So if you want to explore LASIK plus I can't recommend it enough. They have over 20 years experience in the industry and they performed more than two million treatments right now if you want to try getting LASIK plus you can get $1000 off of your surgery when you're treated in September, that's $500. Of per eye, just visitmylasikoffer.com to schedule your free consultation. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried true crime. And if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's breaker handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Do you love movies? Well, I have the podcast for you. Hey there, this is Mike D from movie Mike's movie podcast Your Go to source for all things movies. Each episode explores a different movie topic plus spoiler free reviews on the latest streaming and movies in theaters. You'll also get interviews with actors and directors to take a look behind the scenes of your favorite movies. Listen to new episodes of movie Mikes Movie podcast Every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's justifying murder my corrupt doctors paid by a mega corporation in order to increase profits for dangerous electric murder guns used by violent people in order to enforce white supremacy? **** I lost the thread of that introduction a little bit. I nailed it. So. Well, you're doing great. Welcome to behind the ******** the podcast that. You know what podcast this is. Nobody's. Nobody's dropping into episode 2 for the first time, not having listened to any of our other episodes. You know who I am? You know what we do, you *************? He's Robert ******* Evans, *************. This is behind the ******* ******** mother. ****. Are we not doing that? And we're not. We're not. That's a little much. That's a little bit much, Sophie. My little bit much. Turn it down. Come on. Come on. Behind the ********. There we go. He's Robert Evans. No, I am Robert Evans. This is behind the ********. And my guest for part two of our episode on excited delirium is Ben Bowlin. Ben, how are you doing today? Ben? Ben? Ben, hey, thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me back again, guys. The new things got sort of dicey at the end. For anybody who wasn't listening in to part one, I think a lot of people might be tuning in just for Part 2, just for pop up. But yeah. Yeah, just. Just for Part 2, they said I don't want. Don't they? Read the description. Now I wanna go in media. Rez, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Tabula Rasa coming in. Coming in hot. Yeah. Thanks for having me back. I know things got difficult off air. We had some creative differences. Read Doritos. Which is fine, but I'm. I'm glad. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I'm. I'm glad to have you back. I'm also glad to continue discussing whether or not to reintroduce Doritos plugs. To be honest, when when it comes to the old running jokes that I'd like to reintroduce, I'm really looking forward to getting in a studio again and just damaging company property with a machete and various thrown objects. That's that's the thing I'm most excited for. I've been practicing and and I'm gonna throw a bagel in your face. Really? Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those things I've come to the conclusion that, you know, the pandemic it it it it gave us some necessary pause time, you know? Because we've been doing that a little bit too much. People were like little bit too much throwing stuff. But now the pandemic, I think people are ready for it again. And that's that. That that kind of makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it? Yeah. I'm gonna team you in the note. The ******* everything bagel be great. Good stuff. Before we get started though I do wanna give give you a shout out for the show and and Robert you personally because I was I was listening to some of the old school behind the ******** and and it hit me and I was I was listening to this and was one of the one of the machete moments as I call him and I was thinking damn my machetes really old. Alright well what's what's your brand oh is it 1 where you don't know the brand is just an old knife old machete yeah. Yeah, it's just an old big asset. Is it one of those big stamped steel deals, like kind of one of those, like, I think a lot of them made in El Salvador. It's kind of a thin stamped piece of metal with an edge on it. Yeah, actually nailed it. Yeah, those are great. Those are, I mean, honestly, for most. I mean, well, it's just because if you actually go to the places in the world where, like, every single person, like, right down to the old ladies is walking around with a machete like Guatemala, like *******. And there's big parts of Guatemala where everyone you see is just gonna have one on them because it's like a life tool. I used to live there. Yeah, you're right. I didn't know that. Yeah, I spent months there. Where were you? I was in jayla. Ketelsen. Ohh. Shayla. Shayla. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it cool enough for us. It was for for us at line. But yeah, it's like whenever you see people who who use machetes all the damn time, it tends to be one of those stamped steel ones because, like, they work, they do the job. They're ******* unkillable. You can just run them on like one of those, you know, one of those foot powered sharpening wheels. And sharpen it up and it's they're not fancy. So, like, yeah, that uses up steel, but you don't care. It's not like an artisanal knife. They're great. I love those. I love those machetes. For all that, I enjoyed my artisanal machetes. If I'm just gonna go out and ******* knife up, I'm gonna use one of those, so. Right. Uh, but Speaking of ******* things up, Robert, this is Part 2 of a very ****** ** situation. Yes, yes it is. And we're, we're talking about. So when we when we last left this very fun story, we were talking, I had introduced a guy named Doctor Jeffrey Ho, because we just talked about Charles Wetley and Deborah Mash, two doctors who receive a decent amount of money. We don't know exactly how much from the Axon Corporation to. Explain why Tasers didn't cause Taser related deaths and now we are going to talk about Doctor Jeffrey Ho, who is like like the the ultimate form of that kind of doctor. This guy is such a shady ************. If there's a single biggest ******* of the episode, it's Doctor Jeffrey Ho. So Ho worked for 10 years as an ER doctor in Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis. The fact that we're talking about Minneapolis should key win on some of where this is going now. From an early stage in his medical career, Doctor Hoe got involved in, shall we say, extracurricular work. Uh, he was hired by a nearby fire department to direct medical services there, which is great. Uh, he consulted for a private medical product company. Which? Is probably OK. Uh. He enlisted in the National Guard and he taught at the University of Minnesota Medical School and then he took a side gig working with the Minneapolis Police SWAT team. This dalliance with law enforcement was apparently so appealing to Doctor Ho that in 2003 he returned to school to get a two year degree in law enforcement, which was a requirement to pass the Police Licensing Board in Minnesota. He became a part time police officer near Minneapolis and so far my feelings on policing. Side based on the standards of our society and its present moment, that's not the worst thing in the world, right? Doctors can moonlight like cops get to moonlight as security guards, I guess. Why wouldn't cop a doctor be able to moonlight as a cop? Like, theoretically, if you're a doctor and a cop when you horribly injure someone, maybe you can provide life saving medical aid to them more early. I don't know, like, ohh, I'm picturing like the worst 80s movie, right? Yeah, doctor. Cop, Jack. Doctor, cops. It would be funny to just redo dirty Harry, but every time he shoots someone he then like he puts on a tourniquet. Yeah. Once I kill him, I go right into Doctor mode. So, yeah, that's a little a little sketchy, but again, based on sort of the standards of our society so far, I guess I don't think he's violating anything. I don't think there's any rule that says a doctor can't be a cop, so whatever. Seems a little odd to me. Now, while Doctor Ho was starting his journey into law enforcement, Axon had a Nebraska doctor named Robert Stratt Booker as their chief medical advisor. In 2005, Doctor Stratt Booker signed on as a consultant to help conduct a massive study funded by the US Department of Justice. You look at the safety of stun guns. The study was being managed by a University of Wisconsin professor named John Webster, and it was supposed to be completely independent of Axon or any other stun gun manufacturer, right? This is the DOJ wants to do a big study on whether or not stun guns are safe, which is a reasonable thing for the DOJ to do, right? Like, you're buying all these stun guns, you probably know how often they kill people. So doctor Stratt blocker gets named as one of the consultants on that study, even though he's in the employ of Axon. Which is kind of shady, and I'm gonna quote from an NBC write up now. In March, both Webster and a Taser spokesman told the AP the company had no ties to their research and his grant proposal. Webster proposed Strat Booker received $18,000 in salary and travel expenses for his advice. Strat Bucky's resume was included but did not mention his work for Taser, and Webster checked the box to deny any conflict of interest now. Ben, I'm not a doctor. Nor am I. Well, I'm a kind of scientist. Uh, you can see my boyfriend, Doctor. I I actually am a Reverend Dr so I am the perfect person. And I've experimented with different kinds of dangerous drugs on my friends and family. So, yes, you know, I I am a good person to say this. I would argue that if you are conducting a DOJ study on whether or not Tasers are safe and you're paid by Taser, that is a conflict of interest. Well. Well, it's a it's a perfect alignment of interest for the people who are selling out human beings. Yeah. For some extra cash that's that's jolly good for them as as a. It's not well written. That's the part. Like, if you were writing this to be as insidious and evil as it is, you would come up with maybe better motivations. And it's one of those things. I don't know how much Strat bucker is getting paid by axle. It has to be more than 18 grand because, like, for a doctor, for someone in that kind of income bracket, and I'm in, I'm gonna guess a similar income bat bracket to Strat Bucker 18 grand doesn't chump change, right? You'd miss it if it came out of your bank account, but it's not. You have to sell your soul for, right? He's gotta be getting a lot of money from Axon on this, cause 18 grand is not enough to sell your soul out if you're in that kind of income bracket, right? Because he's not ******* starving on the street. He's a very prominent Dr and professor. He's got money like that. There's got to be. And that's one of the, like a lot of times when they talk about how much these different doctors are getting paid, it's like 10 or 20 grand and, you know, like, no, there's more ******* cash coming to you than that. Like, I don't. You can't prove that. I don't know. Because these are private payments, right? He's not. It's not a government employee, but you have to be getting more money than that. 18 grants, not enough, you know. Not not for it comes through different ways. Yeah, that that's how it works. It'll come through a different direction there. There are a lot of things that are easily, easily lost, unfortunately, when it comes to those kind of payments. And then also we have to consider as messy and and depressing and ****** as it is to point out, there are people at that income level who are driven to a great degree by. A self delusion and ideology, you know what I mean? So yeah, they're they're just down to clown. They're down to ******* clown. Yeah. Uh, so in 2000, in May of 2005, documents were uncovered that showed Strat Bucker had received both cash and stock options from Axon. And again, I don't have an exact number there, but you have to assume it's a lot, especially the stock options, which gives him a further vested interest in the company's success, right? Because how much those options are worth are valued on how much Axon is worth, which has directly related to whether or not the Justice Department decides Tasers are safe enough for cops to use, you know, now the Justice Department very shadily claimed that they'd known about Strat Bucky's. Affiliation with acts on the whole time, and they didn't consider it a big deal because obviously you need a Taser expert on a study to determine whether or not Tasers are deadlier than advertised. Dr Webster's response to the reveal of his relationship with Axon seems to have put the lie to this, he told the AP quote. In view of this potential conflict of interest, I can make the statement that I have not received advice or paid Strat Bucker and I will not use him in the future. So Webster pulled back, uh didn't pay Strat Bucker the 18 grand cut him from the study. Umm. And this kind of like spoils Dr Stratt Bucker, right, because now he can't be a part of these studies that they're going to continue to be done on the Taser because journalists revealed the fact that he has a conflict of interest now. For Axon, this meant that they needed to shop around for a New Scientist to tweak research in order to make their products seem safe. Tasers had gone viral among law enforcement agencies, and a ton of folks wound up dying or being horribly injured by cops who were using electrocution guns. Axons. Lawyers were now. Yielding dozens of lawsuits and they needed a way to assure investors that they were going to get past this and salvage their image. Now, thanks to Reuters, we have access to a packet for investors that acts on handed out where they proposed a solution to their bad PR and lawsuit problem. The solution was to employ a group of quote world class medical professionals to defend the brand. Now the doctors we've talked about were all brought on for that reason, and I want to read you a chunk from this investor document because it really is one of the most. Osteopathic things have ever come across, so this is the Axon corporation talking to investors who as a result of various litigation inquiries and proposed legislation mentioned above, we had to incur significant general and administrative expenditures in 2005, an investment in protecting our brand equity and educating the various public interests in our technology. In particular, we incurred substantial incremental legal lobbying, public relations and related travelling costs which ultimately had an adverse impact on our overall profitability in 2005. However, we believe these investments were well worth the cost in many cases. What began as adverse circumstances for us yielded opportunities to educate high level public leaders in the faith in the value of our products. Those adverse circumstances were Tasers killing people and them being like, well, but then we got to fight it in court and prove that it was that the Taser. So these advert, it really was a boon to us that we killed these people. It's like, it's like it's off the hook. Yeah, not cool or good, but totally expected. I guess I'm baffled at the last like how much of that is an act and how much of that is in your opinion? As you said, like a sociopathic lack of awareness or lack of caring about that very apparent lack of. Carrie, I like do they know they have to? Because they're they're the ones we'll we'll talk about this later, but they are. Actively fighting to force medical professionals not to diagnose. Taser related deaths, Taser related deaths like that's a thing they go to do. They hire these people to tweak research and stuff. Now I'm sure there's a lot of employees that lie to themselves about what they're doing, but we have some real problems. I mean the overall problem is just the fact that there's a certain amount of these people in any society and that's why you should dissolve systems that systems that put power in people's hands wherever possible because you can't get rid of these people. They're always going to exist. But you can get. Bit of power. And this is a perfect example. Axon has a great deal of power and they use it to hide the fact that they sell electrocution machines. Hmm. Well said at all points. I agree. I wish it wasn't true, but that might be the most. Viable if ambitious solution to remove the power. If you cannot in a feasible way remove the tendency, yeah, I don't think and I don't think you can remove the tendency. There will always be. I don't know this is getting a little off topic, but what one of my favorite books tried by Sebastian Junger does talk a bit. And there's other books that talk about like some of these people who don't have. We would say a conscience, right? There's uses for these people. Historically, you know, if you're part of a hunter gatherer tribe and you have a real ******* bad winter and some hard decisions need to be made about who's going to be left behind, who's gonna get a limited supply of food. A lot of people can't make those calls, and sociopaths can. But then you wind up in that. That is in a situation where you have a small number of people, and while like you, you like they, they are as affected by those decisions as everyone else, because it's all part of a small group that's trying to survive in adverse conditions. Where it becomes maladaptive on a societal level is when you have individuals like that who will never face the consequences of their decisions and who are not impacted by them. And they're just hurting other people because our society allows them to be completely divorced from the consequences of their actions because they have money and a position of influence. That's that's when it really becomes a problem. These these people who have tendencies that continue to persist in humanity for a reason because they they provide some benefits to society, become fundamentally toxic to society because they're completely divorced from the consequences of their actions. You know, when a hunter gatherer tribes, someone like that, if they go too far or get too much power the the rest of the tribe will just murder them. Like that happens a lot in these same people, like that doesn't happen. Here, because they're the CEO of Axon, you know, and they have bodyguards and a whole system set up to protect them. It's the same story with, you know, these, these pharma CEO's who have jacked up the price of insulin, right? It's it's the same story with every American president, pretty much. Yeah, good. I mean well said and then also I don't think, I don't think this is a diversion at all because you're you're bringing it back around. The only point I would add is when we talk about the evolutionary necessity of some of those cognitive like some of that cognitive hardware or design. What we have to realize is that, you know I think this is what you're getting at Robert, the need, the the need for that. Kind of. Person in society is is somewhat archaic and vestigial. Like there. There is potential to do something else. Humans are just very bad at changing in general. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we sure are. But you know what? We're not bad at Ben. Ooh, what's that producing products and services? And doesn't that make it all worthwhile? In the end? The products, the services, you know, sure, we're killing the planet and a lot of the people on it and a lot of the life on it, you know, boiling the oceans, all that stuff. But by God, we have products and we have services, and where would we be without those products and services? Watching a lot more sunsets, sleeping under the stars. Anyway, here's some mats. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for. None of that. 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Dot com to schedule your free consultation now. We're back and we're talking about Umm, doctor Ho and his relationship to the Exxon Corporation and how it started. So we just talked about Robert Scrapbooker, who gets exposed in 2005. And right around that time, the Axon Corporation reached out to a doctor at the Hennepin County Medical Center to ask if he wanted to be a consultant for them. Now, this doctor, whoever he was, had too much on his plate already. But he said, hey, I know another Doctor Who's a workaholic bootlicker. Here's his number, and that is how doctor Jeffrey Ho wound up on the payroll of Big Taser. From a write up in the Star Tribune, which is a Minneapolis paper that has done. I don't know generally anything about this paper. They've done some incredible work on this specific issue. Quote in 2005 with funding from Axon Enterprise Incorporated and the Arizona based Taser, the Arizona based Taser manufacturer Ho wrote an article for police magazine disputing claims from human rights groups that it stun guns were killing people. It has never been scientifically proven that a Taser has directly caused an in custody death, Ho wrote. He offered another explanation for these. On deaths, excited delirium. Ah, now and keep keep keep a pin in that. It has never been scientifically proven that a Taser has directly caused an in custody death. Which we've heard before, right? You remember the other we were talking about? Umm wetley. I think it was said like they don't. We've never no evidence that these caused deaths. Keep that in mind, because we'll be talking about that a little bit later. We're still talking about hope right now, and over the next decade, Doctor Ho joined Doctors Mash and Wetley in researching and popularizing the term excited delirium. When interviewed by the Star Tribune, Doctor Ho claimed that excited delirium is real, widespread, and deadly. He claimed that his interest in researching it came from a pure hearted desire to save lives and reduce the threat of this totally real, deadly disease. He did not initially acknowledge his financial relationship with Axon. But when Axon was reached for comment, they cited Doctor Ho and their other pet doctors in order to claim quote there is no longer a true debate among knowledgeable medical professionals on whether excited delirium syndrome is a valid diagnosis. So there's no, there's not a debate anymore. That's good. Thank you, Axon. Ohh. OK. Now, as we've already cited a number of knowledgeable medical professionals who will argue that it is very much not a settled debate, we we've, we've cited a lot of those people. But considering the number of shell docs who keep making claims like this, I feel the need to keep quoting counter arguments. Dr Homer Venters is a former is the former chief physician of Rikers Island Jail in New York City. He now works for a nonprofit that studies health care in the criminal justice system. He does not believe that excited delirium is a valid diagnosis quote. This is not a medical diagnosis. I think there's still an open question as to the scientific legitimacy of excited delirium. Now there are emergency medical specialists who do not work for Axon and believe there is some validity to the excited delirium diagnosis. They tend to argue that if you don't acknowledge this constellation of symptoms is real. How can you expect police officers to recognize when someone might be at risk of dying in custody because of it? To which I might respond the cop with the cop with Derek Chauvin that day in Minneapolis recognized excited delirium and George Floyd still died. It sure seems like it doesn't help anyone. Stop deadly behavior. It just justifies it now. One of the people who went to bat for Doctor Ho in that article was Doctor James Miner, chief of Medical chief of emergency medicine at Hennepin County. Doctor Miner authored a Taser research article with Doctor Ho. He does not seem to work for Axon. I cannot find any evidence that he is directly paid by Axon, but he's still benefits financially from Doctor Ho's relationship to the company. Here's why quote. Axon Enterprise retains hoe is its contract medical director, a job to which he dedicates 32 hours per month at HCMC. In exchange, Exxon pays the hospital about $140,000 per year. Hose annual salary at Hennepin Healthcare is currently $460,000. Hose position with Axon is not disclosed on CMC's website. So you see what's happening here. As long as Doctor Ho is employed by Axon Dr Miners, Hospital has 140,000 less dollars. They need to find their budget every year because Axon pays that chunk of his salary. In 2016, HCMC, the hospital they both work at, lost $49 million. In 2017 they lost $29 million. So they are in an every penny count sort of situation, and doctor Miner could be argued to benefit. Directly from Doctor Who's financial relationship with Axon, because that's less money he has to find in his ******* budget. And clearly his budget is tight, right? There absolutely is an ongoing financial interest that this guy has too, even if he's not receiving money from Axon. Doctor Ho took Axon money for well over a decade, which means the hospital would have gotten something like $1.4 million from the company uh, and he used his position during this time, his position of prominence within the hospital to defend both the Axon. Corporation and cops who killed people. In 2007, Ho went to Las Vegas to defend a Nevada cop accused of killing a man by tasing him repeatedly, even after that man had been strapped to a Gurney. A coroner's jury determined that the Taser had played a role in that man's death. So a cop tases a restrained man to death and a coroner's jury says, yeah, the Taser is part of why he died. And Taser says, oh, we're not going to take that **** sitting down. This gets back to what I was saying earlier, right, Doctor Who's able to claim I can't think of a single case where a Taser. Was found to have killed somebody. It's because whenever a Taser is found to kill somebody, ackson goes to ******* war, right? That's why that is the case. And they've got the money to throw at it, too, right? Yeah, of course they do. All these cops are buying a lot of Tasers. Yep. Now, Doctor Ho was not about to let that stand. In 2005, he'd taken a course with the Las Vegas Police Department on excited delirium. And in 2007, in court, he cited symptoms of excited delirium to explain how the man had died. Totally independent of being repeatedly tased. The judge ruled in favor of the police and Axon in 2008. Exxon hired Hoe as part of their lawsuit against the medical examiner in Ohio, who cited Tasers as a factor in three deaths, who argued that the Taser could not have killed any of those people, claiming that excited delirium had caused death. In all three cases, the judge ruled again in favor of Axon, and the medical examiner was forced to remove any reference to Taser from the death records in one of these cases. The this exonerated a police officer who was being charged with murder. So. That's good. That's good ****. Yeah, it's it's so fun. We're having a good time. So why? I I imagine that someone is, I don't know, like it. It's weird. It's it's time, I guess, for a irrelevant fun fact. You know, for any fans of Scrooge Mcduck, right? You might automatically imagine the people in Axon swimming in a vault of money, but it it's actually really difficult. Especially if you want to get a dive with some air, you're much more likely to hurt yourself. And so at this point, Robert. It feels like, I know we've got, we've got more to explore here, but it feels almost like. That kind of ridiculous injury is the only. Consequence that these folks will face for these actions, right? Because it it appears like business is booming with Tasers. They're not getting in Tasers doing great, right? Yeah, yeah. No, Taser is ******* nailing it these days. Yeah, it's not great. And we've we've been talking about how Taser goes after and like goes to war basically anytime a medical examiner is like, yeah obviously a Taser killed this guy or at least the Taser was a factor in his death, right? Like it's also the fault of the the cop tasing him as opposed to purely the Taser cause in a lot of cases, as a general rule, these cops are not using Tasers the way they're supposed to be used. They're repeatedly tasing people at closer range and for longer periods of time than they're supposed to. But Taser doesn't want to deal with any of that bad press, which means defending the cop entirely and removing the Tasers, even being involved in the death rather than just being like they're using our product improperly, you know, which is often the case. Here's another completely sociopathic passage from that Axon investor document I quoted in the last episode quote, continued aggressive litigation defense. To protect our brand equity, we have assembled a team of world class medical experts at our disposal and hired additional internal legal resources during 2005. Provide an efficient means of defending US against numerous product liability lawsuits. We have had a total of 12 cases dismissed or defense judgments in our favor. We view a continued record of successful litigation defense as a key factor for our long term growth. So it's it's good for the bottom line. We gotta just slander dead people and sue medical examiners who dare to say that being tased repeatedly is bad for you. Where did those medical professionals get off with the the audacity to do their jobs? Yeah, yeah. To dare, to dare, to blame a device that electrocutes people for their heart stopping. Yes. ******* shameful. About 159 U.S. dollars per share. It's up 5.3% today. Oh wow. Yeah. So let's look at their five year. Wow. Their five year trend line in a in 2016 there were at like. $30 a share and they're they're down from their peak, which was a little earlier this year February, but they're at like so that's you know five years they've like quadrupled in in stock value. So that's pretty good. Holy smokes, yeah, let's let's take a look, OK. Ohh yeah. So they were at like a low point in in 2000. So yeah, at around like 2004, 2005 they're they're like, they're like 960 a share and really they start to soar after 2016. That's like almost all of their stock growth that growth has happened after that point. And they're only 28 years old as a company. Yeah, yeah. I don't know why I sometimes get that. I'm probably not the only one, but I sometimes like if you read a lot about. Defense corporations and and like the the bigger players in the industry, it's it's always easy or tempting to assume like, ohh these dudes are old as **** and they go back to, you know, the world wars and and so on. But that's not the case. 28 years old, founded 1993 and obviously we're talking about a new kind of thing with a Taser. Like the the technology hasn't existed all that long, but yeah, it these these guys are like, they're new. Two, law enforcement. If even if you're someone who believes cops should exist and there's a benefit to having cops, there's a lot of evidence that we're capable of maintaining. Cops are capable. Whatever you think they're doing that's positive, can be done without a Taser, or at least with a true, maybe with a Taser, that's. That accepts the deadliness of their product potentially, and works to mitigate it, rather than just suing anyone who claims it's deadly. Like an ethical if you're going to, if there's any ethical way to do this. And I do think there's ethical reasons for less than lethal weapons, even though I don't believe in the police, I think that there's reasons to have stuff that's not a ******* gun that you could use against somebody that might stop them from carrying out a violent act. An ethical company where that to be a sort of thing that could exist would be like, oh God, they died in this case. Because the person applied the Taser for too long, let's build in like a guidance thing so that it can't do so shocks like, oh, maybe we have it too hot like you. There are ways in which the this could be more ethical than it currently is, but it seems like mostly what they do is just sue anybody who claims their products dangerous. Which is cool. So cool and good. Yeah, so good. During his time with Axon, doctor Ho Pro has provided expert consulting in more than 24 lawsuits in 14 States and one Canadian province. In addition to the $140,000 per year Axon paid of his salary, hope bills $400.00 an hour for his services to Axon and the different law enforcement agencies he defends. He's been hired to give more than 100 presentations around the world on Tasers wonderful technology. In 2006 he lectured to French police. In 2011 he gave presentations on arrest related deaths in the use of force in Serbia and Turkey. In 2017 he travelled to London and Ireland to spread the Gospel of Tayes by 2019. Doctor Ho was an extremely valuable and prolific contributor to the spread of Tasers worldwide. That year was the first time his financial relationship with the company was revealed publicly when the Star Tribune published a bombshell investigation titled where Law and Medicine Collide. Here's how that article opens up. Depending on the day, Jeffrey how's work attire? May include a doctor's white coat or a badge and a 40 caliber Glock with high capacity magazines. Hose hoe transitions between head of paramedics at HCMC, where he overseas the response to 10s of thousands of 911 calls every year, and a part-time sheriff's deputy in rural Minnesota. He also draws on his expertise in healthcare and law enforcement for a third job. He is a paid advocate for the Taser stun gun, one of the most popular police weapons in North America, whose allegiances to medicine police in collided. Last year, when investigators from the Minneapolis Department of Civil Rights discovered that police officers were urging paramedics to sedate emotionally disturbed people in the field with a powerful sedative, ketamine. Some patients were then enrolled without their consent and an HCMC study on ketamine on which HO was a lead researcher. Now this is getting us a little bit outside of Tasers and excited delirium, but it's a ****** ** story and we're gonna talk about it. So starting in 2014, researchers at HCMC led by HO started having paramedics responding to medical emergencies. Inject quote agitated people with either ketamine or a control group sedative to see which worked better. As noted in the quote above, patients were not asked for consent and were only informed afterwards of what had been done to them and that they'd been enrolled in a study. Now, medical ethics does allow for patients to be drugged without consent under certain circumstances, right? Sometimes people are a danger to themselves and others, and that is considered to be the best way to deal with it, right if the situation is an emergency and the risks of the medication are considered. Animal this can be done, but that is not the case with ketamine being administered in Hennepin County. From a write up in Nature quote, 39% of subjects who received ketamine developed respiratory problems that required the insertion of a breathing tube, compared to only 4% of those who received the sedative haloperidol. The study also reported that ketamine sedated patients much more quickly than Haloperidol did, but that respiratory side effects were most likely to develop in severely agitated patients who received ketamine. So there's significant dangers to this. After three years of drugging agitated people at random, the HCMC launched a second study of ketamine use in non compliant patients. 420 people were enrolled in this study, although enroll is an odd term to use for people who are drugged against their will. The way the study was supposed to work was that all agitated patients admitted to the hospital during the first six months of the year would be dosed with ketamine, while everyone who was agitated and admitted during the last six months of the year. You receive haloperidol or a different set of the hospital had to study. Had to shut the study down after just six months, though, because a Star Tribune investigation publicized a report from the Minneapolis Department of Civil Rights. This report alleged that rather than the study being conducted just on patients admitted to the hospital, local cops had started advising paramedics to drug troublesome patients, including people the police had already physically restrained. Now the hospital denies that police. Yeah, yeah. That's not good, is it? That's ******* disturbing. Yeah, cops are the people who because when someone gets ******* ketamine. Right, because then then inherently the police who are not doctors, with this one notable exception of Doctor Who, that puts them in a supervisory or administrative role in this study, does it not? You could argue that. Hmm. Ohhh. But these guys aren't part of the study necessarily. This is just happening in the field. Like, the hospital gets approved to do this on patients in the hospital. And so this stuff becomes part of the toolkit. Paramedics are carrying around and cops find out about it and they just start having people drugged when they're having an issue with somebody. Wow, that is pretty rad. That has never happened. Yeah. Well, for everybody in the audience today who's a big fan of recreational drugs and is somehow not familiar with that, I mean is. Is fun, yeah. Yeah, well, is not the right circumstance. There we go. Very important* there. If if you were a fan of recreational drug use, you probably don't want law enforcement calling your dosage or you don't want to be hanging out with them. And also, I would argue, you know, when you're saying in the right context there, Robert, you probably mean consensual ketamine, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like the last time I did ketamine was in a hotel in Los Angeles with a bunch of friends. Uh, well, like. A friend and their Co workers and we were all railing lines of ketamine off of the side of a machete and having lovely conversations and that was a wonderful night. We called it machete amine, but we all consented and none of us were being restrained by police at the time, which I think both of those facts were key to our enjoyment of the machete mine that night. That's really funny. It was. It's a good way to do ketamine. I highly recommend it. Medically. You know, theoretically. So hypothetically, hypothetically, that would be an enjoyable thing to do. And I should note, for legal purposes, HCMC denies that police ever directed paramedics in this way, but you can decide whether or not you believe them. Yeah, I think the Star Tribune reporting makes me question that. But you know what? I don't question Doritos. Nothing says cool ranch like a mustard gas cloud billowing across the fields of Flanders. Anyway, here's some products. 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With me, everything is just easier. And getting it done was easy too. You know, I went in, I had my consultation, they told me I was a good candidate and then I went back in couple of days later about it being about a boom. You know, my eyes were perfect. So LASIK Plus is a leader in laser vision correction in the United States. They have over 20 years in the industry and more than two million treatments performed. If you want to start your LASIK plus journey, you can get $1000 off when treated in September. That's 500 per eye. So visitmylasikoffer.com to schedule your free. Consultation now. We're back and I was just telling my friends how while 18 grand isn't enough to buy my integrity, just giving me a pile of weapons is like if the company that makes Bearcats wants to give me a BearCat, I will stop complaining about the police Bearcats. I'm telling you all that right now. My integrity is the price of a free BearCat that I could drive around town. I'll I'll do it. I'm not even. I don't even feel bad about it. Yeah, yeah. You would use it for good though. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I absolutely would not. But it would be. It would be fun. It would be fun. There's a lot of things you can do with a BearCat that people would have trouble stopping you from doing. So we should probably get back to the episode. Yeah. Now, the Star Tribune report on this Hennepin County Medical Center ketamine study also revealed that in several cases, these involuntary ketamine doses stopped patients hearts. Multiple people had to be resuscitated at the hospital. And some of these stories are ******* horrifying. Here's the Star Tribune. And remember, Doctor Ho was one of the lead researchers on this study. Good guy quote body camera footage from one case showed a woman, after being maced by police, asking for an asthma pump, the draft report said. Instead, a paramedic gave her an injection of ketamine if she was having an asthma attack. Giving ketamine actually helps patients, and we're doing a study for agitation anyway, so I had to give her ketamine, the unnamed paramedic told a police officer, according to the report. After receiving ketamine, the woman's breathing stopped and medical staff resuscitated her, according to the report. It is troubling that the dictate of the study mentioned by the paramedics it clears appears to have played a significant role in the decision to administer ketamine, the report's authors wrote. I can tell you, as someone who has had asthma and who has had to deal with other people's asthma, the thing you do is not just give them a bunch of ******* special, OK? Right, you give them their inhaler, you know? Yeah. I'm not a paramedic, right? That that would be that would be my go to treatment for asthma. All that, yeah, is asthma medication as opposed to a ******** of ketamine that stops their heart. I'm not a doctor. Again, no, none of us. None of us, I think, are doctors, but, well, actually like everybody. Yeah, you are Reverend Dr sorry. I recognize state of New Jersey. Yes. I am not a paramedic, no. No, yeah. But I feel like that's a reasonable assumption there, Robert, that that you give someone asked for medication for asthma and not ketamine. Yeah. Not to be a backseat first responder. Yeah, you know, I know where our job fabulous, but yeah, right. But that seems like ketamine will be the go to. Yeah, it's just a weird direction to take it, like if someone is going into diabetic shock right then. Wouldn't your go to be something like insulin? But again, not a paramedic, not a paramedic. But yeah, it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be ketamine. It wouldn't be ketamine. So Thomas Hosley, 18 years old, wound up enrolled in this study because he had a seizure. His mom called 911 and cops and paramedics showed up. His mother insists that he was not combative at all. Quote, he was not arguing. All he was doing was crying for me because they wouldn't let me be by him. Despite this, the police restrained him and had paramedics shoot him up with Special K when his mother saw him next, he was unconscious and intubated. In all these cases, the victims were informed they'd been enrolled in doctor hose study. Afterwards, by letter 64 doctors, bioethicists and academic researchers cosigned a complaint against the HCMC study. Michael Carome, director of a health research group and cosigner of that complaint, explained quote. This isn't even a close call. This is clearly a prospective high risk experiment. This is really just a colossal failure of their program to protect human subjects. Doctor Jeffrey Ho did not see it that way. All available evidence suggests he thinks that the costs of this study, which are the dignity, bodily autonomy and health of its participants, were minor compared to the prospective public health benefits, he told the Star Tribune. I very much view my careers in emergency medicine, law enforcement and research as parallel pathways to public safety. It is my life's work to develop these areas of intersection for the benefit of public protection. Question. You got a question about that? Do you think he believes that? I I think he has to. I think he knows at some level because he's not a dumb man. Right. You don't you don't have a a resume like this guy if you're done and you're not that successful at arguing in court. If you're a dumb man, he's not a dumb man. But I also think people are very good at knowing on some level what they're doing is wrong and still doing it because ******* money talks, baby. Yeah. And intelligence also helps. Yeah. Helps rash with rationalization, yeah. Well, props to his mental parkour. Yeah, perhaps to his mental parkour. Now I'm watching him for all mankind right now, which is an alternate reality TV show about what if the Russians had made it to the Moon 1st and it kind of follows the American space race. If we lose the race to the moon and like what happens as a result of that? One of the characters in it is Verner von Braun, who was a real guy. He was probably the reason we actually did make it to the moon first. He was a brilliant rocket scientist who also was a a Nazi. He was a member of the s s. He would argue that it was forced upon him. I don't think that's a valid, and I think a lot of historical research suggests it's not, but he did. He did what he did because and he utilized slave labor. There were death camps that provided labor. Thousands of laborers died building his rockets, which he wanted to use to explore space. But he was willing to turn into weapons because it furthered his rocket research. UM. And I think he would have justified it if he'd ever really been called to account for it by saying, like, look, the importance of my research had value for all of mankind. So even though people were suffering in the immediate term, it was worth it for the long term benefits of what I was doing. I don't think that justifies being a Nazi and utilizing slave labor. It just doesn't. But you cannot. If you're a smart person, you can always find a justification like I will find a way to justify. My partnership with the company that makes Bearcats so that I can get a free BearCat to drive around town in. Can you imagine just getting up in the mountains doing Donuts and whippets and a BearCat? That would be so ******* rad, shooting out the window. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And look at the interior. Really? You get the covered cab option, you could live there. Go overlanding in a ******* BearCat. Sounds like a great time. Ohh God. Look, BearCat people. I I have already admitted on air I will sell my integrity for one free BearCat. So let's let's make it happen. Yeah. It doesn't have to be a BearCat any any route clearance vehicle, really. I'll take like defense manufacturers one of those big up armored trucks they drive around Afghanistan and Iraq. Just send it here and all all change my tune, you know, that's it's it's that easy, people. I I support you in this, you know? But like at this point. You know, I think you really went hard on the BearCat angle. Hmm. Like, I I think maybe we can maybe you can say that you can be like, hey, I'm a man of integrity. I'll sell my soul for for a root clearing vehicle. But it's got to be BearCat, right? Maybe that's still my soul. Now I'm, you know, I'm. I'm not. I'm not particular. I will sell my soul for any modern armored vehicle. As long as it's not like a BMP ******* Russian trash, anyway. Or a Humvee. **** humvees. No, thank you. I've been in a lot of them and they suck. But like a big one. It's gotta be real *******. It's gotta be like a like a like a like a real monster of a of an armored vehicle. And then then I'll sell. I'll sell out. Absolutely, absolutely. Lockheed Martin, we could make a lot of money together. Well, you could make a lot of money and I could go joyriding in an armored vehicle. Win, win. Well, not for all win will die. But for me, a win, win. So the story about HCMC's ketamine program broke it. Right around the same time as the story about Doctor Ho's cozy relationship with Axon. There was an immediate outcry by the community and by some elected officials in Minneapolis. HCMC's chief executive resigned over the ketamine study. Doctor Hose relationship with Axon was a thornier problem. Publicly, the hospital stood by him. But the Star Tribune? Be able to recording of a private meeting Doctor Ho had with a group of paramedics in which he admitted the hospital had asked him to resign. He told them why would I resign? I didn't do anything wrong. He blamed politics and an overzealous police oversight board for the fact that people were angry at him. I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you that I think that Doctor Ho is a grifting scumbag and in any ethical society would be stripped of his medical license and flung into the sun. I could rant about him for a while, but it is time to move on because there is much more ******* afoot. But of course, so far we've discussed how excited delirium came about, how it's used to explain away police murder, how Taser hired experts like Doctor Ho to blame deaths caused by their product on excited delirium, and how they sue medical examiners who rightfully blame their products for deaths in custody. But it gets shadier than that. I wanna quote now from a Reuters article which opens with yet another story of a man being killed by a cop with a Taser quote with a police officer close behind, Israel Hernandez locks ducked into an apartment building and dashed down the hall. Busting through a rear exit, he scrambled over an iron fence, landing hard on a parked car, and sprinted across the parking lot. Within seconds, Officer Jorge Mercado caught up with him, drew his Taser, and fired a single shot to the chest. The recent high school grad and aspiring art teacher collapsed on the sidewalk in cardiac arrest. The chase lasted 6 minutes. It was 5:20 AM on August 6th, 2013. At 6:18 AM he was pronounced dead. And by the way, Israel Hernandez Locke was being chased by a cop because he was spray painting. It is this. He got murdered for graffiti. Wow. 4 hours later, the Miami Beach Police Department received an e-mail from stun gun manufacturer Taser International. So Israel dies 6:18 AM from a Taser shot to the chest. 4 hours later. Taser emails. The Police Department, the message marked confidential and not previously reported, provided guidance on how investigators should proceed from collecting hair and nail samples to recording the teen's body temperature and documenting his behavior before he was stunned. It included a sample press released and an evidence collection checklist. In bold letters marked timely and urgent. The Dispatch advised Miami's medical examiner to send to the teens brain tissue for testing to Deborah Mash, a University of Miami medical researcher. It did not mention Mash had been paid by Taser to testify on its behalf in lawsuits. Yeah, that's right, that's ******* right. If a cop kills you with a Taser, they will send your ******* brain tissue to the Axon corporation, or at least one of its pet medical examiners. Holy ****. Yeah. So that's OK. So. That when we say guidance, First off that timeline is 4 hours, profoundly disturbing. Yeah. And then secondly, when we say guidance, what are we? That feels like guidance with air quotes around. Yeah, because it feels like it's written kind of like a mandate. Like they write a press release for you and you just slot in the name of the officer and the dead kid, you know? Ohh man, it's ******* red. It's awesome as ****. It's so good. Everything I just read in that excerpt is part of a total, the total package that Axon offers to law enforcement agencies. If you taste some teen to death, you're not on your own. Axon will send you a ready made fill in the blank, blank press release and they'll help you. Up with a way to blame the victim's lawyer, Todd Falzone, who represented the Hernandez lock family in a liability suit, explains. From the minute they find out someone dies, they're doing everything they can behind the scenes to set up a legal defense so the case goes away. Now, when questioned about the Hernandez lot case, the Miami-Dade County associate medical examiner, Mark Schuman, told Reuters he was unaware that Doctor Mash was employed by Axon when he sent that teenager's brain tissue to her lab for tests. When Reuters reached out to Axon, VP of Communications Steve Tuttle told them it was not the company's responsibility to inform Schuman that they were advising him to send brain tissue to one of their employees. They didn't think Doctor Masha's relationship with the company was something police needed to know, either. Quote Why would I tell them something that's a legal matter? I'm not a lawyer, he said. Ohh **** you Steve, you ******* ***** ** **** you absolute goblin. Oh my God you soulless monster. Ohh it ******* over such. Yeah, Turtle went on to describe Doctor Mash as a quote respected independent expert. Reuters was able to show that she had received at least $24,000 from the corporation from 2005 to 2009. That's just a four year. We don't know the full amount that she has been paid by Axon over the years for her services. We don't even know that that's the full amount from 2005 to 2009. That's what they were able to verify. We do know, thanks to Reuters, who did a great job. It really has been like a ******* pit bull. Latched on to this this specific story about, like, the Tasers and Axon, they've really done some incredible work on this, and we know, thanks to them, that there have been at least 1005 incidents in the United States where people have died after being stunned with Tasers. Wow. When questioned about Tasers, weird policy of inserting themselves into active investigations over deaths and custody, Tuttle told Reuters that his company just wants to ensure investigators get, quote, the best available evidence in cases where people are killed or hurt by their weapons. As he explained it, the scientific information Axon passes on with examiners is just quote things that an outside investigating agency needs to see. Coincidentally, one of axons. Chief finding after all these years of sticking their nose into investigations is that the overwhelming majority of people who die after being tased are killed by underlying health conditions, drug use, or some other police force besides a Taser. From Reuters quote though, the company has warned since 2009 that a shock to the chest can affect heart function. It says no one has died. From Taser induced cardiac arrest, it asserts its weapons have been a factor in just 24 deaths, always as a result of secondary injuries such as hedging injuries from falls after someone was stunned. In 2009, the American College of Emergency Physicians published a white paper on excited delirium, which is quoted regularly by the FBI and by guys like Doctor Jeffrey Ho and ladies like Doctor Deborah Mash, when they need to blame deaths caused by Tasers or other excessive force on the victim. Incidentally, doctors Hoen Mash were two of the authors of that White paper. At least one of the other 19 members of the task force who wrote that White Paper was also a paid Taser consultant. The paper described excited delirium as, quote, a real syndrome. Of uncertain etiology or cause. The White Paper, yeah, didn't. Yeah. Now that White Paper did not note that three of its authors were paid employees of Axon. This was justified by the fact that it came out in 2009 when disclosures were not required for task forces assembled by the American College of Emergency Physicians. They started requiring that 2011. We just didn't require that at the time. It's not a lapse of ethics or anything. No reason to re examine this now. So far everything I've gone over today. It's pretty ****** ** and infuriating, but guess what? It gets worse, because Axon also decided in the early aughts to try to preempt as many lawsuits against medical examiners as possible by just buying up medical examiners like Doctor Deborah Mash. Here's Reuters quote Michael Graham, president of the National Association of Medical Examiners in 2005, was approached by Taser. In 2007, the chief medical examiner for Saint Louis and Professor of Pathology at Saint Louis University agreed to be a paid Taser consultant. And still receives an annual stipend, he said. Taser wanted to educate medical examiners about the physiological effects of its weapons and rebut criticism running contrary to the science, Graham said. In 2014, the Medical Examiners Association hosted a big meeting on Tasers and stun guns. Graham presented at that meeting. So did Mark Kroll, a University of Minnesota professor and a member of Tasers corporate board. Since 2003, Kroll did disclose his tie to the company when he told medical examiners that Tasers satisfy. Quote all relevant safety standards and advise them to this. Exclude the weapons as potential causes of death. In 2008, Mark Kroll testified in a wrongful death suit and suggested that Tasers were like therapy for people suffering from excited delirium. Wow. Wow. If you exhibiting. Yeah, yeah. Taser therapy cause you're excited. That's like, that's honestly like saying. That, that is, that is like saying dying is therapy for depression, except that depression is real. Yes, yes, yes. I'm gonna read this quote from Mark Kroll because in an in an episode full of sociopathic **** this might take the cake. This is what he said in court here for this. If you start exhibiting excited delirium behavior and you are in the terminal throes of death and you are so bizarre you can't be controlled anyplace else, you will receive Taser therapy. They need to be brought under control so their lives can be saved. Just a life saving in it. I mean, obviously in my medical kit, I keep a Taser right next to the tourniquet. Sometimes you need the tourniquet, sometimes you gotta taste people. Wow, that's just medicine. Cabine. Yeah, ketamine at the end. Look, if you've got ketamine and a Taser, you're basically a hospital. Yeah, you're all one walking hospital. You're the science of doctor cop at that point, yeah. So Kroll is a bioelectricity scientist. In 2016 he earned $267,000 from Taser and owned $1,000,000 in company stock. In an e-mail to Reuters he insisted that his affiliation with the company did not bias his research explaining due to this well known relationship, I was motivated to be very careful to be extremely accurate and objective. Ohh good, ohh good, good, good. So so in other news, it's like a fox calls New Hen House design a step forward and better overall for the hens, right. If we're using the tired kind of go to this open air headcount house really foxes are big fans. The wider doors really, when you think about it, are more friendly for everyone, for everybody. Everybody benefits and then the chickens get more fox therapy, right, right. Fox therapy, which is, you know, according to Fox Therapeutics International, that's like a lead Pi or very, very reputable. Yeah. Yes, this is unconscionable, man. I have pretty bad, right. So let's end by talking about one more murder. I think this one is valuable to discuss because it really brings together just every shady tactic and shady professional we've discussed in our episodes so far. In 2004, David Glowski's mother called the police because her son, a schizophrenic suffering from substance abuse, was in the midst of a psychotic episode. She told 911 he needed to be hospitalized. When the cops showed up, he was standing in the street, screaming incoherently while holding a Bible and a book about the Grateful Dead. Officers tried to restrain him. Klosinski kicked and screamed the doc. The cops took him to the ground and one stunned him nine times by applying a Taser directly to his flesh. He was handcuffed, his legs were zip tied, and a 270 pound officer pressed him to the ground while another maced him. David went into cardiac arrest and died on the spot. His mom sued the cops and Axon and you know what comes next from Reuters quote. Taser persuaded a judge to exclude a medical examiner and pathologist with 25 years experience, whose testimony was central to the family's case, arguing that it was unqualified, unsupported and unreliable. Backed by a half dozen experts, Taser asserted that there was no medical certainty its gun shocks caused acidosis. The death was natural and attributable to excited delirium, Taser argued the company had help from Suffolk County medical examiner. The post was held then by Charles Wheatley, the man who had revived the excited. Lyrium theory to explain Miami cocaine deaths decades earlier at Whitley's direction, the coroner on the case, his deputy, sent Glaus Sinski's brain samples to Deborah Mash at the University of Miami. Mash found evidence of exhaustive mania, a form of excited delirium said to occur when drugs are not present. In his autopsy report, the coroner echoed mashes findings the Glowinski family's lawyers called the concept of excited delirium Asham. The defense prevailed in 2013. Judge William waldis. This Taser from the case, finding no admissible evidence, the stun gun killed glass enski. ******* hell, it's pretty good. Good ****. Wow. Just rad. How much is big teaser? I feel like we can save big teaser now, unironically. How much is big Taser paying the judge? I don't know if they are, you know, I assume they're paying a lot for the lawyers. I assume. You know, there's a lot of ****** judges who are sympathetic to Taser, and I don't know if they're paying the judge or if they just. Know how to make the argument to get **** dismissed. I I don't know. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do what is legally slandered to a judge. Without more evidence on that, it's possible that the the actual corruption here is just in all of these paid experts, right. And the judge is looking at all of these experts who are paid by Taser and being like, well, if all these people are saying the Taser couldn't have done it, the Taser must not. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not defending the judge either. I just don't know enough about his specifics. You're. Yeah, I mean, you're right, you're right. That's fair because otherwise it gets a little too far into speculation. But my friend, I think you've proven a solid case that this. I know it's very stereotypical and on the nose for me to be the one who says this, but it's kind of a conspiracy, is it not? It is. We could call it a conspiracy. Yeah. Yeah. Ben? Ben. Thinking something's a conspiracy. What's what? What is. So what is this strange calling a conspiracy? Some would call. That's all I'm saying. The pieces are there. I'm not saying it's a cake yet, but there's some flour, there's some sugar. There's a **** ton of people who could have been alive. Yeah. Most importantly, I think Yep. Yep, Yep, Yep. Well. Us last, last last episode, Ben. That's the episode. Then you got some plugs that you like to plug at this exact moment in time. Drop down in the P zone, baby. So yes. If you haven't listened, I'm gonna do a weird reverse plug. If you haven't listened to, it could happen here ohh somehow. Please check it out. If you'd like to hear more about critical theory applied to allegations of corruption and conspiracy, check out stuff they don't want you to know. And if you'd like to hear about ridiculous history because there's a lot of it, then check us out at ridiculous history. That's that. That's it for me. This is going to stay with me, you know? I appreciate that. I appreciate that. We need a 2 parter, I think. I think we need to. Me too bad and not cool. Yeah. Yep. Anyway, that's gonna do it for all of us here at behind the ******** for the week. Yeah, until next week. I don't know. Doctor Jeffrey Hose home. Address it. No, I'm so he's giving me the I I'm. I might be committing a felony sign. OK, well. That's just a joke for legal purposes. Legal jokes also, I don't actually. I don't actually know his address, so no one would know what I suggest. Anything, unfortunately. We should really in the episode. Episode over. Yeah, we have. We have to end this now. All right, have a good week or be very angry. Or both. Hey, Robert here. It's been like two months since I had LASIK and I'm still seeing 2020. 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Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey y'all, it's Caroline Hobby hosted get real with Caroline Hobby interviewing the most fascinating people in Nashville and beyond. I talked to artists. I talked to the wives of artists. Talk to women entrepreneurs who have created businesses, who are moms, who juggle a million hats and do it all. Each episode will leave you inspired, feeling like you can accomplish your own dream and calling. Listen to new episodes of get Real with Caroline Hobby every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcast.