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Part Two: Ancient Genocide and the War on Carthage

Part Two: Ancient Genocide and the War on Carthage

Thu, 02 Jun 2022 10:00

Robert is joined again by Joe Kassabian to continue to discuss ancient genocide.

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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to That's Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her social discoveries on chimpanzees. So four whole months, the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear into the vegetation. Bing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio, this is La Monstra, a story of abomination and conspiracy. The story about the man who simply become known as. Lamaster. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here. And for the last two years behind the ******** listeners have funded the Portland Diaper Bank, which provides diapers for low income families. Last year y'all raised more than $21,000, which was able to purchase 1.1 million diapers for children and families in need in 2021. And this year we're trying to get $25,000 raised for the Portland Diaper Bank, which is going to allow us to help even more kids. So. If you want to help, you can go to B fundraiser for PDX Diaper bank at GoFundMe. Just type in go fund me bTB fundraiser for PDX Diaper bank again, that's go fund me, bTB fundraiser for PDX diaper bank or find the link in the show notes. Thank you all. Ohh, what's ******** orange? My Joe? That's hell yeah. Just for for for us, for nobody else. It's the best picture of all time. How you how you doing, Joe? For part two of our genocide spectacular. I'm good. You know, I I often am like my people that listen to my show often joke that I surprise my guests with a genocide. And this time it gets to happen to me and it's it's quite nice. You know, I I did almost open this episode with what's eliminating ethnic groups. My every people in the history of the human race. But that wouldn't I I just didn't want to see Sophie's disappointed face one more time. Like I can feel her shaking her head no across the Internet. She always is somewhere. Robert, you could never disappoint me. I often have. So Part 2, everybody's good to go. This is behind the ********. By the way, your joke is Sabian cohosted the Lions led by donkeys podcast. Let's get back to some genocide. So? As I'm sure everyone listening to this show is aware, the United States is currently in a bit of a moral panic over the fact that transgender people exist. The groomer discourse which has arisen on the right wing in which trans and now increasingly all queer people are accused of being child molesters, or one of each child molesters because they, like, write books that tell kids that people who aren't aren't cisgender exist, right? Yeah, folks have been accusing this or folks like on the left and and queer people have been pointing out that this is a. The nationalist rhetoric, right? This is potentially the kind of rhetoric that can lead to a genocide. And the basic fear is that right wing thought leaders are trying to convince their followers that transgender people are pedophilic monsters because you can do anything to pedophiles, right? Like it is what's the lowest of the low exactly. So if you can, like lump a group of people in as being that, it doesn't matter what you do to them. Now, I've seen a number, number of posts in this line on on the inter webs that have brought up Doctor Gregory Stanton's 10 stages of genocide, which he laid out in 1986. And were revamped in 2016. Step one is classification e.g. Splitting society into us and them rather than using mixed categories. This is not always done intentionally, there's often just kind of happens, but it it can feed and do what later becomes a genocide. Next is symbolization, which gives names or symbols to the classification. The most obvious example of this from history would be the yellow star that Jewish people were forced to wear in Nazi Germany, or indeed the the purple triangle that that that homosexual people were made to wear. Next comes discrimination on a legal basis, and then dehumanization, which is comparison of members of the target group to insects or vermin. This is also not, this is not on his list, but plague Bacillus is a really common one, particularly by the Nazis. I think that had something to do with the fact that there had been a plague not that long before the rise of the Nazis and famously in Rwanda, right people in yezi or cockroaches, yes, cockroaches, which we'll chat about a little bit more later. And then there's organization, which is the forming of militias. Another, not crucially non state groups geared towards the elimination of targeted people polarization is #6, in which extremists Dr Groups apart and broadcast propaganda in the mass media to indoctrinate people with hate. Now most of the time when I see people bringing up Stantons 10 stages of genocide to talk about how that's where the rights trying to push people, they will lease the United States at either step four or step 6, and you can certainly make a strong case for either. But while Doctor Stanton scale has has its uses, I'm not like. Getting on it or anything, I think the way in which people are interpreting it leads to some inaccurate beliefs about how genocide tends to proceed, and it overall pushes people towards a more mechanistic and centralized view of how genocides occur. And while this can't, this does describe some historic genocides. Well, because he's looking back at genocides and trying to describe them in stages, I don't know that it's super useful in predicting them, which I would argue that it's not. Simply, I mean, I'm not, of course, I'm not hating on his research. His research is great. It's just, I think it takes a lot of agency from the perpetrators of genocides themselves. Yeah. I think it's very good. And, I mean, even Strauss sometimes does this as well. It's very good to everyone does when you're doing this kind of history, right? To an extent, yeah. It's it's something it's very, very good to understand, the organization of the radical core that makes all genocides possible. But isn't inevitable radical course can form and there can still not be a genocide? Yes. And I also like the kind of the fact that we're sort of critiquing this doesn't mean we're not saying like, for example, trans people should not be concerned about the rhetoric coming out of the right as eliminationist not saying that at all. Just I I think focusing on the stages and the way that people do kind of leads people to an accurate expectations about how things proceed and have proceeded historically. And that's what we're going to talk about today. So in order to get into that, let's start with another example from ancient history. This is one that you brought up to me, Joe, when I mentioned that I wanted to do this episode, the Asian Vespers of 88 BC, I am Asiatic, Vespers for Romans got the hit with the Uno reverse card. Yes, exactly, yeah. This is the Uno reverse of the of the genocide that they did in Carthage. So starting in like 91 BC, Romans had what they called the Social War, which was social because the people they lived next to. Italians were not Roman citizens, but they had to submit to some Roman policies. They couldn't vote. They weren't like, I don't know, as a general rule, when people have to submit to policies by a government but have no say in that government, they they can get unhappy with that. This is not a thing Americans would be familiar with, right? Nothing like that has ever happened here. That never never occurred in this part of the world. So eventually the Italians go to war with the Romans. I'm not gonna get into detail about that, but they call it the Social War, which is funny because it is unbelievably brutal. And this is also, this is a pattern in Roman history where like a group of people who are close to the imperial core will have an uprising because their rights are being denied, and they will make demands which will be denied, and then they'll fight a war. The Romans will crush them brutally and then grant most of the demands later. What happens here? Because, like, the Italians get everything they want after the Romans wipe out like a generation of them, right? Yeah. There's fewer of you now to grant rights to, so. Exactly. It's better for us. So, yeah, the Rome is at war with Italy in this. And while this is all going down, there's a you know, this place called Pontus, which is in the modern day Black Sea region of Turkey. And the guy who runs it is a king named Mithradates Mithridates. Uh, whatever. You wanna call him the 6th and he starts, like, rubbing his hands together like that guy in that meme, you know, the, you know, the guy rubbing his hands together, wasn't it Birdman? He's he's doing this. My, I think it's Birdman. That's exactly my threadies is like, that's what he's doing. Look at it. Rome fight in Italy. Like, ohh yeah, I'm gonna get some ****. So famously myth or dotty's was also related. And again, this is something that goes back through histories. It's related into the the neighboring Kingdom of Armenia. And then, yeah, part this as well. Yeah, they sure do. So Rome and the peoples and like that whole region of the world, you know, the code, which generally, like, they'll call these guys like Persians a lot of the time. Like, it's all like, it's this, you know? It's Asia, right? Like, that's what the to the, to the romes. This is just Asia. And they fought a while and they would fight many more wars in the future. So old myth Tradities decides that, like, while the Republic's got his back turned, he's going to Annex 2 neighboring kingdoms. They have like tight relationships with Rome, primarily like trading based. So because Rome has so much economic interest in the area, they have a Roman Commission to Asia and the guy who's running it basically. The guy who's running the Roman Commission to Asia is like, hey, threadies, you can't annex these places. You have to give them back to their kings. You have to restore their sovereignty. And the head of the Roman Commission doesn't do this because he's a cool dude, but because he's been bribed, right? Like, these guys paid him to do it because, you know, stuff can't come back. Like, it's not like Rome is centralized for the day, but it's not like he can radio back home and be like, what do you want me to do? Like, that takes, like six months to get anything back, right? So the two countries that in the Treaties had annexed Cappadocia and Bithynia. Get free, because Mithradates doesn't really want a straight up fight with the Romans at this date, but they now owe the Chief Roman dude in the area a lot of money because they promised to pay him for this. Now this guy, this dude who like makes me tradities leave and gets bribed, is Manius Aquillius Aquillius. We don't actually know how any of these names were pronounced, because here's the fun thing. As a guy who took three years Latin, nobody knows how ancient Latin was pronounced. We know how people have said, like, ecclesiastic Latin, but it is different. Like nobody actually understands exactly how Romans would have said. Anything. So Manny is Aquilius, head of the Roman delegation, tells the king of I think, Cappadocia Nicomedes that a good way to get money that he owes Manius. Which might be by invading Pontus and taking their stuff. Now, the fact that they had just been annexed by Pontus. If you're a smart person, you might be like, well, maybe these guys can't beat Pontus in a war if this just happened, right? Like maybe their invasion won't go well. Maybe this is a stupid idea. You might think Manius Aquillius. Would a would think that, but he does not. So Nicomedes tries to invade Pontus and they just they get curb stomped by the tradities just just absolutely pounded. So next I'm going to quote from a write up for the University of Chicago's Encyclopedia Romana quote Method. Tradities retook Cappadocia and Bithynia, defeating Nicomedes at the river Ammonius, fighting against Chariots armed with sides on the wheels. The army was terrified at seeing men cut in halves and still breathing, or mangled in fragments or hanging on the sides. Overcome rather by the hideousness of the spectacle, but than by loss of the fight, fear disordered their ranks. Mithradates then swept into fight fear Agia and the Roman province of Asia. Aquillius, who so ill advisedly had precipitated the war without ratification from the Senate, fled the mainland, but was given up by the citizens of Madeleine. Ridiculed and paraded on an *** he eventually was executed, relates Appian, when Mithradates poured golden molten gold down his throat, thus rebuking the Romans for their bribe taking. And this is a cool and good way of executing like powerful rich people. That happens a bunch of times with two Romans in it. Like, this is not the last time a Roman will be force fed molten gold in this part of the world. It rocks. It's pretty cool. It's objective. Like mithradates. I'm not calling him a great guy, but like it's pretty cool to do this to guys like that. I want to say this happens as someone without it. I mean, it happens too often. It happens to one of these. Relatives later on, but I can't remember who. That's good. Yeah. No, it it famously happened. So you know, later during the time of like, Caesar, and you've got like Caesar, Pompey and Crassus. And Crassus is like the richest guy in the world at the time. Some people argue he's the richest dude there ever was. He made like a big chunk of his fortune by when there would be fires in Rome. He owned a fire department and so would like, go to people and he would be like, you want me to save your house? You got to like, give me your house. Like, sell me your house and then you'll be able to get your **** out at least. And like, that's. Go big *******. He, like, goes to war in kind of this vague region of the world against, like, Parthia because he's * **** and his army gets its *** again. This is one of those times where, like, the Romans lose like a whole generation of young men. And yeah, according to legend, he gets killed by having gold poured down his throat too. The richest man in history, which is neat. Marching your army through the mountains of Parthia and getting wrecked is like kind of an origin story for live important people in Rome. Like Marc Anthony did that too. Yeah, it's like. Eating chicken pox for Roman military leader? She just gotta go get your *** wrecked in Asia. So, again, obviously so far this is, broadly speaking, morally unproblematic within the context of ancient history. But if you know your Roman history, you know that, like, and maybe if this hadn't happened, if he'd gotten back to Rome, there's a decent chance they would have like executed Marcus, like throwing him off the tarpeian rock or something for for ******* around. They did that sometimes, but now a Roman elected leader has been executed by a foreign king, and Rome does not take kindly to that ****. So things start churning up for a war, and threadies or Mithridates, whatever decides his first step should be to cleanse his new territory of all Roman citizens. And this is where things get genocide. Quote in 88 BC, in a measure of the hatred felt for their omens in Asia, Mithradates wrote secretly to all his satraps and city governors that on the 30th day thereafter they should set upon all Romans and Italians in their towns, and upon their wives and children and their freedmen of Italian birth. Kill them and throw their bodies out, unburied, and share their good Smith with King Mithradates. 10s of thousands were massacred. Valerius Maximus records 80,000 deaths, Plutarch 150,000 in what has been called the Asian or Ephesian Vespers. So yeah, this, this is definitely genocide. Pretty, pretty clear example of a genocide and one that happens very rapidly. It might be most common, it might be most reasonable to drive. Compare it to Rwanda, where there were there were pre-existing tensions because the Romans had kind of come into this area with all the money. They were backed by this state that had bossed people around. They were like landlords and they were bankers and they were like seen as kind of economically oppressing people in the region. Seen as arrogant, seen as like, backed by this outside state that was unfairly exerting power in the area. And so people had been ****** for a while. And when the tradities takes over and says, like, hey, it's time to get rid of these ************* there's a lot of folks who are, like, willing to do it because of these pre-existing ethnic tensions. Yeah, obviously this with the main difference of these ethnic tensions were actually different ethnicities and not invented. Not invented yet, because these are like dudes from Italy showing up in ******* Turkey. Which is actually again, like with Carthage. Not all that far, but yeah. So this upsets Rome. The whole story ends after two more wars, with Roman victory and the death of Mithradates and the rise of a guy named Sola who sucks ***. But that's a story for another day. Definitely an act of historical genocide. It does not. However, again, if we're talking about Doctor Stanton scale, it doesn't correspond directly to that now there is an US versus them component to the massacre, right? That exists well prior to Mithradates giving the order right. The fact that there are these divisions that Romans are kind of seen as other. But there's no build up to this really. There's no propaganda arm to dehumanize them. There's no gradual stage of separating Romans from other people in their community. He issues secret orders that local officials and their levies. Fulfill. And as an incentive, he divides the property of the dead Romans between himself and the inhabitants of the city that they're killed in. There it is. That's why. That's why, right. And this is, this is the thing I think scholars obviously talk because we're quoting a bunch of scholars talk about this a lot. But as a general rule, when people popularly discuss genocide, they almost never talk about how ******* much of it is about money. Yeah, it's it's starting to become more accepted now, like, like we talked about, I think in the very beginning of the last. Episode is that people really wanted to believe that every perpetrator of a genocide is a dead eyed psycho who's a dead set racial propaganda. Just something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's pretty, pretty solidly thrown out the window by Christopher Browning's work in ordinary men, which then, yes, spawned one of the worst books on the Holocaust I think I've ever read called Hitler's willing executioners. Oh yeah, but yeah, it's there's a lot that's problematic. About that he. The make a Long story short for people who don't wanna read it, he hits the the Nazis with their own race sides, yeah? Which you don't need to do. No, you don't need to do. Robert. The only thing that could stop a bad guy with racism is a good guy with racist science, OHS, and not to mention like the Rwandan genocide jumps to mind immediately. Yeah, some of the new scholarships. So we'll be talking about this quite a bit. But yeah, I mean, this is actually literally what we're leading into. But yeah, I mean, it's it's worth noting that, like, yeah, the king. Incentivizes people who inform on Hidden Romans, and he promises slaves freedom. He he he again the the genocide occurs there. There is an aspect of it, as people have been ****** at Romans in this region for a long time, but they have incentives, right? They don't just suddenly get let off the leash and do a genocide because they're angry at Romans. There's it's worth it. The the the balance sheet makes it worth it, you know? And this is an important truth about why people do do genocides, because it pays. Racism and nationalism are always major causes cited, along with kind of vague. And constantly frustrating claims of brainwashing by propaganda. But as we'll cover, focusing on those things leads to a really myopic view about why mass killings occur. Our earliest 2 genocides, we have no context about it, right? We have no we have no idea why the Yamnaya how the Yamnaya justified like what they did or how the people who killed the the people in Naturak justified what they did. But it seems safe to conclude that the folks carrying out the violence and their civilians, the civilians back home, whatever that was, probably saw there being some sort of a resource gain in killing those people. That is very likely popular scholarship of the Holocaust tends to focus on the yellow stars and. Arson attacks on synagogues and of course the camps, and obviously all of that's very important. But many Americans have never even heard of Aryanization. And in order to explain what that is, I'm going to quote from the Holocaust Encyclopedia. Under voluntary Aryanization, the Nazi German state encouraged Jewish businessmen who were already facing economic and social discrimination to sell their businesses in Germany at radically reduced prices. In early 1933, there were about 100,000 Jewish owned businesses in Germany. About half of those were small retail stores dealing mostly in clothing. Their footwear. The rest were factories or workshops of varying sizes or professional offices for lawyers, physicians and other independent professionals. By 1938 the combination of Nazi terror propaganda, boycott and legislation was so effective that some 2/3 of these Jewish owned enterprises were out of business or sold to non Jews. Jewish owners, often desperate to immigrate or to sell a failing business, accepted a selling price that was only 20 or 30% of the actual value of each business. And I think it's important to highlight this because you can draw a real Direct Line between what mathematics is doing, what the Nazis are doing here, right? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Especially basic idea. Yeah, especially when Aryanization became forced, which, I mean, of course you could argue that it already is forced. But yes, when it, when it becomes, you know, there they go from voluntary to force and the Nazi sense of the word when they start deportations. Other property outside of like precious metals and things which end up vanishing into Swiss bank accounts. Right. And are you still there to this day? Yeah. They get auctioned off at drastically reduced prices to German civilians, yes. And yeah, it's Umm, obviously like one of the things to note is that what the threadies does is faster because like, it's years between Aryanization and the the actual physical elimination of Jewish human beings in Europe on a mass scale. There's a good again, this is not something that gets talked about, especially in our popular retellings of the Holocaust, it tends to get glossed over. There's one very good movie that is like focused on Aryanization, although it's Aryanization on the eastern front during the invasion of Russia by the Nazis, it's called the shop on Main Street. It won a foreign Oscars made in the USSR in, like, the 60s. And it is all about a local dude named Tono who's like just like a Russian dude who's like, Brother collaborates. I think it's his brother collaborates with the Nazis. And because his brothers working with them this like kind of he's the town drunk, basically gets given a Jewish woman's business and he like tries to hide her and stuff. It's it's a very bleak movie, but it's a good movie about that aspect of the genocide that I don't think I've ever seen anything else tie into it maybe. And one of the things that's really interesting about the shop on Main Street, I recommend watching it is that this is again filmed in the USSR in like the 60s. So all of the people acting in the movie had lived through this. Like, the actors in this movie had either participated in or watched their neighbors give up their Jews when they were kids, like during the Nazi advance. So it's they're not so much acting as like, remembering. And it's it is a potent film, like you should watch the shop on Main Street. It's a very good movie. Just like have something like the new Nicolas Cage movie to put on afterwards that will make you less sad, because holy **** is it bleak. Word two movie. In front? Yeah. I can't believe it's depressing. Anyway, I'm gonna go have a nice palette cleanser. Come and see. Yeah, yeah, I I would say it's on the level of come and see in terms of bleakness, not in terms of like how intense the imagery have come and see is, which is like nothing else. Yay, Russian movies about World War Two. Yeah, it's it's interesting because like when you think about the fact that. The Treaties and the Nazis had the same basic idea, but he immediately preceded to genocide and it took them years, you might conclude. One of the things you might conclude from this is that a benefit from modern civilization, and that is that in order to get a population to buy into a genocide, you have to separate the killing from the financial gain by a couple of years. Accountable to everybody. I'm not sure if that does speak well of civilization like I don't. You can. You can interpret that however you would like, if that's what you choose to take out of this lesson. I would argue that it does not, especially because it seems like most genocides, not all, but most in the modern era. Like the vast majority of work that is done is done to make it palatable not only to lay people in civilization, but also to the perpetrators. Yeah, and it's because. This might shock some people's ideology isn't all that important for people doing the killing. It's important for people doing the organizing. Yeah, and that's what we're we're. This is. I mean, this is all what we're talking about. But first. You know who doesn't organize people to participate in an ethnic cleansing in order to make financial benefits for a specific class of people? We actually don't know that. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, cause it could be. And they for certain have, yeah, the Ford Motor Company. When abducts children for their child hunting island off the coast of Indonesia, they abduct children from all socioeconomic classes, all major religious and racial groups, all kinds of kids on the child hunting island off the coast of Indonesia. That's the guarantee, the guarantee of of equality. Freely sourced children. Yeah, our kidnapping gangs do not see race. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. 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That's better, HEL. better help calm slash behind this fall on revisionist history. Is there anything that we haven't talked about or or I should have asked you or you'd like to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Revisionist history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Ohh, we're back. So we've discussed a shortcoming I think of Doctor Stanton scale and again we're not trying to show him like his research or anything. This is primarily even not really an issue with the scale, but with like the way it is popularly interpreted. Like it's a like genocide is a thermometer, right? Get a dial up the the genocide yeah temperature. That's not quite how it works. And I'd like to present folks with another rubric that they might find more useful for determining how people and. Specifically individual people, although this does, you know, kind of work on communities, get to tip to the point where they are willing to participate in genocide, right. This is another way of looking at it that I, I find more useful. We can talk about like the shortcomings of this way as well if and I'm sure we will. Genocide historian Ervin Staub, who by the way, was only alive to do his research because Raoul Wallenberg saved his life. He's one of the he's one of the kids that Wallenberg hid in like a house during the the the genocide in Hungary. Staub was a. Pioneer in understanding specifically the temporal procession of motivations in individuals who consent to take part in genocide, that was like a thing he was really interested in is what is happening in the head. Like, what are the different things that have to happen for someone to be, like willing to do this? You know, up until his, and he's obviously, he's, he's very much working off of the work that Limpkin pioneered. He quotes Limpkin limpkin constantly in his book. You know, none of these people are like doing anything entirely like, this is scholarship, right? Everybody's like participating in a building and understanding. Up until his book was published in 1989, there was fairly little organized scholarship concerned with how individuals changed over time to support genocide. Staub focused on what he called a continuum of destruction, which other scholars have empirically documented in studies of Rwanda, Bosnia, and Cambodia. The findings of all of this research on motivation were aptly described by one of the scholars who followed Straub, Scott Strauss, who wrote of Rwanda quote Rwandans killed for multiple reasons. Others joined in the attacks for one reason, but then continued for other reasons. Their motivations changed over time. Now, I found a good article published in 2020 by Jan Reinarman and Timothy Williams in the incredibly named International Journal of Violence. I think it's actually called violence and International Journal, but either way, it's a pretty pretty cool title for a thing. Now, based on the research of guys like Staubin Strauss going all the way back to limpkin, they propose a sort of hierarchy of needs and list ways in which different motivations can influence those needs to make people capable of like directly carrying out mass murder. Quote to understand why individuals engage in violent action, we need to understand both their motivations and inhibitions, both of which stem from certain needs. Inhibitions conceptually being motivations for not engaging in violent action. As such, we can identify individual hierarchies of needs. And only when the most salient one is a motivation for action will an individual participate. Now, to explain why, they present a chart listing the needs of an individual and specific moment, which can generally be categorized as security and moral integrity, social belonging, and a desire for better life conditions. So for security, a person's desire to keep themselves safe might lead them to participate in a genocide to avoid coercion, violence, or the threat of violence from the state or another Group A person's moral integrity might keep them from killing if they believe that murdering people. Is always wrong. A person's need for social belonging might convince them to kill if doing so will keep them in good with the group. And likewise, they might not be willing to kill if that will ostracize them from the from the people around them. And the need to improve their own individual circumstances might of course lead a person to support genocide for economic gain. Quote this can be illustrated through the actions of a Rwandan Hutu who might have faced strong pressure from other Hutus to participate. As Strauss argues, this was the most common motivation for people to participate in the killings and rendered the need for security. Just salient in the hierarchy of needs and motivations at this time. In a similar vein, an example of coercion can be found in Cambodia, where coercion caused a diffuse feeling of anxiety in which everyone feared becoming a victim themselves, making fear endemic. Furthermore, coercion in this case provoked strict obedience to the orders of their superiors for the fear of life threatening consequences. Some former cadres of the Khmer Rouge claimed that if people did not kill and follow the rules, they would be killed or stated they were fearful for their security. A statement of a former Khmer Rouge. Illustrated this as follows. But it was the order from higher and if they did not do it, they were also killed. Therefore, whether they wanted to do it or not, they had to do it. They just followed the order. Now, yeah, yeah, that that tracks especially Rwanda. I mean, the vast majority of the genocide wasn't committed by arms of the state, though the Rwandan military did help most of his done by Hutu power militias in the Inter hamway. And like a huge number of the victims of that genocide are also moderate Hutus who refuse to take part. And yeah, people, you can actually go in the Rwandan Genocide Museums website and and watch a ton of perpetrator. Club. Like interviews. And virtually all of them will point out that the community was doing it. I was worried that if I didn't take part, I too would be killed. And also I stole their stuff. I was like the three things you name. Yeah. And that I think that's what's so important is that, like, it is all. It's not just fear of coercion. It's not just that someone is ordering them and it's not just that they have an economic benefit. It is a continuum of things that kind of. You know, and again, you could get overly mechanistic with this in views like flipping switches, it's not quite it. It's just it's the same way that, like, you know, people in any circumstance can do things they would not expect of themselves because things change that like alter the calculus they're making in the moment about like, what is, what is the thing to do. And it's I I think that's much more useful than just being like, well, if you brainwash certain people, you can get them to commit genocide. It's more like if if you can provide the proper incentives in the proper way at the right time, people can are willing to engage in horrific things that they would consider impossible of themselves in a different situation, right? I mean, that's one of the main reasons why the Holocaust switched from being mass shootings to death camps. Yeah, because human beings cannot continuously do that forever. No, no. And they won't break down. They as they did. And we could talk about, like, the rates of alcoholism among the S or, like, just, like the fact that. The like, so many of those guys killed themselves, right? But you shouldn't. You shouldn't feel bad for them. But it's just like, God, no, no. There's a certain there's a certain subset of, of the human population who could, who could shoot, you know, unarmed people all day long and not have any effect. But it's not a lot of them, and it's not most of the people who do that kind of thing. So the need for social belonging is also a well documented and powerful motivation for many participants. And genocide. Obviously, a lot of Germans watched their neighbors be led away and avoided speaking up. And this is an area where like, the popular view is often because like, well, if they had said something, they would have gotten in trouble. And we just talked about how coercion is a factor, especially in Rwanda, but it's also not as much of a factor in a lot of genocides as you think, for example, in Germany. One thing that is worth noting is that soldiers in Germany. We're not punished or executed for refusing to participate in genocide. They were ostracized by their fellows sometimes. I'm sure some dudes got, like, beat up or whatever by their buddies like you, talking about, like, individual coercion. But the state did not execute German soldiers for refusing to kill Jewish people. No, of course not. And or and ordinary men. Christopher Browning points out before every mass killing to include the largest mass killing of human beings. Yeah. Which the Russians are shell or we're shelling. Yes. Yeah. The whole the Holocaust Memorial specifically. Good stuff. Yeah. It like the, it's noted that I mean, this is a reserve police battalion, I believe. Reserve Police Battalion 101 or something. Yeah. We're like given explicit permission, like you don't have to do this if you don't want to. Like you can request a transfer somewhere else. Had an out. So again, it's not just any of these factors because social coercion can be totally absent in the way that it's like in the way that we were describing earlier, where it's a fear of your own physical security, right, for not participating. That is not a necessary precursor of genocide. It can be. And it's, it's, it's interesting here because one of the things that is worth noting, because I don't wanna just be talking about why genocides happen. If you want to look at like how to prevent them or to mitigate them, one of the most successful things you can do is protest in the moment against it. And this is a thing that was successful in Nazi Germany against the Nazis on a number of occasions. People who protested direct acts of deportation and killing did not tend to be imprisoned or harmed by the state. In fact, the state on a number of occasions. Backed off and stale writes at length about the power of bystanders to influence, or at least in specific limited instances, halt and and and slow down the process of genocide. And when talking about this, he points to a well documented psychological phenomenon. The bystander effect. When a number of people are present in an emergency, a significant number, somebody gets hit by a car or something, and there's a bunch of folks watching. Responsibility is diffused, and each individual person on scene is less likely to help, right? Because they assume someone else who knows better is going to get in there, right? We could talk about the cops stacked up at ivaldi refusing to like, although that may be a different thing, but like, I'm sure that was a factor in what was happening psychologically. The same thing that causes most people in a room to ignore when, like, a dude slaps his girlfriend, is at play when agents of the state come to disappear people. Staub points out that even the Nazis backed away repeatedly in the face of public resistance. Quote they did not persist, for example, when Bulgaria, where people protested in the streets, refused to hand over its Jewish population. Or when within Germany relatives and some institutions protested the killing of the mentally ******** mentally ill, and others regarded as genetically inferior, like their worst cases in which and and there was a backlash after Kristallnacht that caused changes in Nazi policy. And this is against the some of these scholars who are talking about it in the in the way that we've just been discussing. We'll say that what's happening here is that in that moment where like you're trying to round up people and folks show up to protest your human need for moral integrity. Can kind of switch to make you incapable, temporarily of at least, like continuing to do the thing you had come there to do, right? You had come there morally willing to round up these people for genocide, but the the approbation of the community around you suddenly makes you unwilling to do that in that moment. Doesn't mean they weren't willing to do it later, but it doesn't mean that like. They decide that it's morally wrong. You know, a big factor in what may be happening is that when they are presented with a crowd of people protesting them, they suddenly think, oh, I might get punished for this later. This might not be safe for me. Like if this is ******* off this many people, I actually might like have to like deal with consequences for participating in this, right? So that may be part of what's going on. But it does point to, and this is something stab points out a lot. It's actually not useless to like one of the most useful things you can do at every stage of like. Of of kind of building genocidal tensions is make it clear that like you hate what these people are doing and you oppose them because that has a number of influences that can like at least mitigate the harms that are being done and that's this is kind of gets to like. The root of what the dehumanization dialogue is getting at you know the the problem that most often when people talk about dehumanizing in the context of genocide, they frame it as the use of specific language to deny people their humanity in order to prepare to execute a genocide. And that's not always how it goes. And in fact, there's more evidence for it occurring the opposite way around. In Cambodia, for example, killers reported being disturbed by the acts of mass murder they committed at first and then reported that it got easier with time. Like killing ducks and chickens. And part of this is that, like, the longer you do this without people stopping you, and the more the less like resistance you encounter to it, the more it just seems like if you're in a culture where people are doing this, you feel less like #1, you're going to get punished for it, less like it's a problem it gets more like that's a big part of like, what the humanization is not what happens before, but what happens like during. And a lot of the participants in the Cambodian genocide will say that, like they hated what they were doing at first and then with time. They just came to regard it as like killing ducks and chickens. You know, the way they'd slaughtered animals as kids on the farm. They integrated the execution of human beings in their life into their lives in order to, like, protect themselves. Right? Right. And professor Eliza Luft has also written and researched this topic extensively, and she writes, quote I find that dehumanization is more often an outcome of participation in violence rather than a precursor. In other words, people make difficult decisions about whether or not to participate in genocide based on their access to financial resources, who they're being asked to kill, their proximity to extremists ordering the violence, and signal sent by local elites. But the more they kill, the easier killing becomes, and this is partly due to shifts in social perception. Although Vincent Genocide describe reactions that include vomiting, shaking, nightmares, and trauma, the first few times they kill overtime their physical and emotional horror at killing subsides. My research suggests this cognitive adaptation to violence goes hand in hand with the transformation and how ordinary killers perceive their victims. Dehumanizing propaganda can help with this process by providing participants with cultural narratives that frame violence as the morally right thing to do. And this is when we talk about preventing genocide. You mentioned earlier, like the racial motivations and stuff that's key at like the core of people who are trying to plan and organize this. One of the ways to disrupt it, you have to disrupt all of these potential incentives, right? It's about creating friction for the people who want to organize this. It's about making it difficult for folks to profit. It's about making it difficult for people to feel like this is OK. It's about making them, like, see and encounter resistance constantly at every stage of this because that's a big part of like. Stopping people from feeling, stopping people from like stopping the people who will actually do most of the activity of genocide, from getting from feeling like they this is a a good thing for them to do. It's disrupting like the signalling and the messaging that that that brings people in, you know, like that's the stage at which you can stop this stuff. Yeah, I I think that there's there's certainly a level of feeling of impunity and most of the people that would end up doing these things, they'll. Though also in in my opinion, a lot of the people who would end up committing the violence didn't actually ever see themselves doing it. Like the reserve battalion that Christopher Browning writes about. Those guys are all people who were. Discharged from military service or not allowed to have military service to like medical problems. So it's a job like they they thought they were going to like go be occupied territory cops and **** and as far as like. The the Rwandan genocide or even the Armenian genocide were allowed. The violence is communal. There's there's an intense economic problem, economic friction and a history of conflict that these people between the two groups and it unfortunately just takes someone to harness it and and allow them to be in a position to grant impunity. But I think that the, the the communities that are taking part in it, like you've pointed out, are only doing it because they're like, well, we're clearly going to get away with this, yeah, like they're not, they're not going to live. Nobody starts off, you know? Bring a checkpoint with a machete outside of Kigali if they think like there's gonna be a trial in like 6 months. Exactly, exactly. And part of like, you know, one of the things that left points out is that like a thing that can influence populations to participate as like their prop, their proximity to extremist ordering. The violence would stand to point out is like these militias, these non state groups. Which is like one of the reasons why when anti fascists talk about the point, the value of like confronting groups in the street at the early stages of this, that's part of the value of that. It's not just that. Like, you'll stop them from coming out because in a lot of ways it just makes them want to come out. It's other people who might kind of passively go along with them when they start setting up checkpoints, seeing how much resistance there is to those groups and the things that they say, right. It's about keeping. Yeah, some of it is about because again, there's a number of things that can, like flip in a person that can make them willing to participate. This, it's it's about trying to make it so that people never feel like this is a thing they can participate in with impunity or without. Being ostracized from society, right? Like, that's it. That's that's part of it. That's part of it. Like, none of this. There's no simple solution to stopping genocide. Ohh, of course, but that's part of something. It's something that we've been trying to figure out since Raphael Lemkin first wrote his insanely long book. But like, a good example of this is like, oh, the water is getting too hot, time to ******* bail is like the plots against Hitler during World War Two. I mean, yeah, there was several plots against him early on, but they really only picked up once it became pretty ******* clear. Like, yeah, this, this this ****** coming down on us. Yeah. Like, the famous Stauffenberg plot was like, not because Stauffenberg hated the Nazis. It was because he didn't like that they were losing. Yeah. I mean, he was a Nazi and he was anti-Semitic, and he was one of those guys. It's like, OK, so death camps are a step too far. But even even that, it seemed like it and that seemed. But even then, him and most of the central organizers of that plot had all been on the Eastern Front at some point. And they were like, we're going to ******* lose. Yeah. We're going to we're gonna lose. And also when you're at that level of command where you like sitting with Hitler bunker, you know, not only are we gonna lose, but like, oh **** there's gonna be hell to pay. And we're all in this bunker with Adolf Hitler. This is coming down on us. There is going to be hell to pay. Oh no, if it isn't the consequences of my actions, yeah, yeah. Speaking of the consequences of my actions, if you buy these products and services, the main consequence of your actions is that you'll finally be happy. Mm-hmm. Alright, here's adds. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. 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That's better This fall on revisionist history, is there anything that we haven't talked about, or I should have asked you or you'd like to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people. Isn't that funny? That's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Revisionist history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Alright, we are back. So, you know, people, I think, as we repeatedly getting onto here are complicated and so are genocides, and we're never talking about a single reason. You know, I'm, again, in every genocide, there's probably there's individual people whose motivations are very simple and can be as simple as, like, I'm just a ***** ** **** you know? Those guys like Oscar Dirlewanger, like, these guys exist, right? There's people who just suck *** like, comprehensively, and that's why they're on board. But you, you can't actually do a whole genocide with just those people. No, you you need the you need the whole banality of evil to back you up. Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing. Like, I think people. Misinterpret that sometimes is like being entirely focused on like guys like Eichmann who are these like bureaucrats, but like part of it is that motivations for genocide can be benal they're not. Everyone was radicalized to think that the Jews were this, like, Titanic threat. It's like, no, they were like they they they participated in the Holocaust for pretty banal reasons in a lot of cases, yeah. And there's a lot of attempting to make things palatable for people like, yeah, a good example, like. The the very beginning stages of the Holocaust is like, well, you know, before they started death camps, they're killing the mentally ill, the disabled. And that was to, you know that we don't hate these people, but, you know, they're. You know, evolutionary dead ends, they're hurting everybody. This is better for them. Yeah. You know, and you see, a good parallel of that, in my opinion and in the peak of the elimination eliminationist rhetoric that we're seeing in the United States right now, is the framing of trans identity is mental illness? Yes. So you. Well, you want to cure mental illness, right? Like, why wouldn't you want to do that? You have states like Florida, or I believe Texas and a few others who are forcing detransition on people in order to cure them. And it's I think it's it's both that they are talking about forcing detransition because these people need to be cured. But they're also talking about their ability that they're spreading it right, which justifies could be used to justify elimination in the same way that like the Nazis talked about the Jews and how like, you can't let people who are just like 1/4. Jewish live because they're spreading this like there's something inherently, you know, and again, this is the high level justification for it. But like, this is also, that's part of why the individuals got on board is like this, this, this rhetoric that was explained to them. Like, you have to give people some kind of explanation, right? People feel a threat from the state or they feel like that they're going to be ostracized. And also the propaganda lets them feel that their victims are somehow less human and not just that, but a threat to them, right. And you, you get some of this and like the correspondence of Einsatz group. Talking about like, well, we have to kill these babies because they'll grow up into Jews, will, like, threaten our babies and stuff. And so, you know, the killing is justified. But also, it's not just that. It's that I'm getting paid to do this. This is my job. This is keeping me away from a more dangerous chunk of the front. Or maybe I'll get a promotion from the party if I'm, like, doing it. You know, this other role in, like, the the Holocaust or something, if I can effectively move all these people on these trains, you know? It's, it's almost best to look at the willingness of members of a population to participate or allow genocide to occur with their consent, as like the weakening of an immune system. Like there's certain individual barriers and people that make them unwilling to support something like this, and you don't just, like, flip a switch over time, but you you weaken barriers and you get them to like, well, you know, you're not saying yes to massacring all these people, but like, let's get them out of our community, let's get them out of our schools, let's shut down their ability to operate. Clinics, let's do and like the every kind of new incentive weakens more barriers and again things get, you know it's like we just talked about Stauffenberg, high level Nazi. And he was deeply anti-Semitic. He believed in the Nuremberg laws, didn't see anything wrong with them. His main problem is he didn't. He thought killing them was too far. But well, once you've gotten to that point. What, what barrier is there? Like, you've already, you've already acquiesced to camps, to Aryanization, to force deportation. Like, really, how far of a jump is it for most people and for him? I mean, he didn't attempt to kill Hitler because of the Holocaust. No. So, like for for people like him, who I fully believe would be and are generally the vast majority of people that are the, you know, the state actors of any kind of genocidal power, whether it be the Ottoman Empire, Nazi Germany. The United States, USSR, whoever the vast majority of people will talk themselves into accepting a certain amount of this that they directly have their hands and are they can directly see and whatever happens beyond what they see. And that's somebody else's problem. I can't speak of it. Yeah, they'll they'll talk themselves into becoming palatable because much like you know, reserve police battalion one-on-one, this is a, this is a salary, this is a pension. I can take care of my family. So I mean you know people are able to compartmentalize of why they need to be this you know horribly murderous bureaucrat because well I'm just filing papers my hands aren't bloody. Yeah. And this is I think why I I have been as of I think most people who participated in a lot of protests very critical about the value of protest in a lot of situations. But it when it comes to stuff like they don't say gay bill when it comes to stuff like like OK folks are saying some really sketchy elimination of stuff about trans people. You should get as many ******* people out in the street, and a part of the value of that is making not the most. You're not going to change anybody's mind. I'd like the ******* Ron DeSantis level, but there's a lot of people who are. More on the edge. And you're not gonna make them into suddenly nicer woke people, but you can convince them at like, oh, if things get worse and more is demanded of me against the this population, there's a lot of folks who are going to want my ******* head, you know? And that's there's a value in, I mean, you know, like it's like Paul Gosar is a ******* white nationalist. You're never going to change his mind. He does a psycho. No. However, yeah. And you know, we both have in the past and will in the future have laughed at things like polite. Society and things like that. But when you make a guy like that feel so deeply unwelcome, and any open space because of his his rhetoric is obscene, it simply won't happen that much anymore. Like these ideas are allowed to propagate, like you've shown and talked about before on your show, where they use the guys of freedom of speech to spread hate. They don't care about freedom of speech, they care about spreading hate. Yep, that's it. Yeah. So, yeah. And I think what's important about looking at it all this way and the way that we've been talking about is that when you think about, when you think about kind of getting people able to commit to participate, to allow genocide, as as in in this more fluid way, it frames the willingness to engage in mass killing as more fragile than people tend to think it is, which is important. This is why strident sudden opposition in the moment can delay or prevent acts of genocide, as while in Raul Wallenberg stopped a **** load of people. From getting deported from Budapest on ******* trains. Because he would wave papers in their face and yell bureaucratically at Nazi soldiers. And it made them think they'd get in trouble, right? And that saved thousands of lives. Look at the safety community and Nan King. Yeah, exactly. Headed by a literal Nazi who pointed out that, like, all ******* contact the Consulate of of Nazi Germany if you hurt anybody under my command, like anybody under my protection. And that that wall. Of like, I might get in trouble is what stopped Japanese soldiers from like they they possibly saved over 200,000 people. Yeah, and the only thing that saved them wasn't force of arms, though. That is important when a genocide is unfolding, because once it started, you can't prevent it. You have to stop it. But in the prevention stage, the the thing that S people from the murder is this might blow up in my ******* face. Exactly, exactly. And and again, that's the uplifting part of this. Is that like. You can, you can. You can stop this. And and and it's about like what we're talking about when a guy like Wallenberg shows up or that ******* Nazi and Nan King, they are disrupting and reordering the higher, like the hierarchy of kind of needs and fears and the head of the individuals who were previously willing to undergo genocide. And they're deciding in that moment, this is not safe, this is not a good idea. This is not beneficial in this moment again, you're not de radicalizing them, but you don't always need to, right? Yeah, it's honestly, I think a lot about, like, the way doctors can talk about suicide sometimes where it's like, well, there are and this is not everyone who participates in a genocide, but like, there are moments where they're willing to, especially in the case like Rwanda and other moments where they wouldn't be willing to. And if you can disrupt someone in the moment they're willing to, they won't do it again necessarily. That's maybe worth thinking about. Yeah, it prevention. Prevention is real tricky. I mean, it's something that even people in the field of genocide studies still don't completely agree on. Of course you do. Like famously the guy, one of the people that runs doctors Without Borders said. Like, you can't stop a ******* genocide with doctors, you know, effectively saying that once it begins, the only thing you can do is kill the perpetrators until it stops, which I don't disagree with. I don't. I'm not. I'm certainly not going to argue with that. Statement. No. But obviously, like, of course, there's no mention. Like, yeah, he is provential. Like, yeah. It's great that you can, you know, the collective forces of the allies stop the Holocaust from happening or from being complete. But the goal is to stop it from getting that far. Boy, it got pretty far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was not, not a, not a speedy, not a speedy intervention, you wouldn't say. And and they they certainly didn't even intervene to stop the Holocaust. Honestly, it was the ******* international equivalent of stacking dudes outside the door in a ******* classroom. While there's a like, it took way longer than it should have. We can talk about boatloads of Jewish people being sent away from the shores of the United States during the Holocaust because the administration didn't want to seem sympathetic towards the Jews as they were trying to get support built up to enter the war. Like all sorts of ****. I mean, really, even the successful genocides that have been ended via military action were never that military. Action to end them were never initiated with the exception of very, very few to actually stop a genocide like obviously World War Two comes to mind. World War One and the Eastern Front and I would add a what the what the why PG did in northern Iraq. You know doing the Sinjar. Yeah. Vietnam invading Cambodia. They. Yeah. Stumbled into a genocide like saying what the **** is going on here. You know I would I would argue that the YPG and coalition forces stopping the genocide this Yazidis. Is one of the one of the times that it was done on purpose and in a relatively timely manner. Yeah, the same with, you know, Yugoslavia. Yeah, yeah. Less timely, significantly less time. Efficiently. Less timely. Unfortunately, once you pull the military card, things get even worse because you have to kill people. Yeah, that's why prevention is so ******* important and it's so widely overlooked. And it's one of the things like. But I think I already said that it's very, very hard to champion genocide prevention because you're proving that something did not happen. And people, and what if you it's a lot like how we all would really like to envision convincing really weird right wingers that climate change is real because, like, what's the worst thing that happens if I'm right? The air is cleaner. Yeah, it's nicer outside. Yeah, well, no, you're going to crash the economy. Yeah. What's the worst thing that happens if we are worried about elimination eliminationist rhetoric whenever it pops up, whether it be trans or gay people or, you know, Rohingya or wiegers? Like, what's the worst that happens if we're wrong? There wasn't a genocide. Oh no, sorry. People were less ****** to teenagers who were. Dealing with one of the things that is most difficult to deal with in our society, yeah, it's it's literally something that only kids had a better childhood. That's the downside. ****. Can't have that. It's one of the things that literally only has upside. No, and it's it's. I mean, it comes down to because again, as you said, there's not broad agreement on how to prevent genocides because spoilers. We have not figured out conclusively how to stop genocide from happening. There's several going on right now, but one thing. Is making the people at the at the, the central top level of the genocide hierarchy, the folks pushing all of the things, the kind of genocide elites, making them scared to say **** that's a part of it. And making the people who are potentially lower on that totem pole, who might listen to those militias or what not in the moment, realize that they they they will be wrecked if they take part in that. There's more people who don't like that sort of **** so they get scared and they shut the **** **. Yes, make racists afraid again. Not that it's always about racism, but like, you know, you get what I'm saying, like that make bigots worried about their actions. Like that's why would people complain? Like, what's the worst thing that or what could you possibly be doing that to? To change anything if you're outing members of far right militias that protests, that's why they're covering they're hiding themselves for a reason, but because they're worried about what's going to happen to them when people realize they're marching. Found where a wearing a shirt that says 6 million wasn't enough. Yeah, yeah, make him. Yeah, exactly. And it's one of those things. You know to get back to the script a little bit. When we talk about how like. Much you can disrupt someone's motivational hierarchy and the way in which, like, that can actually stop actions. There's there's a Robert Jay Lifton cites a case of an inmate in a concentration camp who put in a request with a Nazi Doctor Who had a I mean, who was a Nazi doctor in a concentration camp, right? Right. Yeah. And he he puts in this like, weird request and the doctor grants it and it winds up saving this guy's life. And and referencing the situation Staub argues, apparently the inmates unusual. Behavior activated some motivation low in the hierarchy, politeness, correctness and responding to a request, perhaps even compassion. And this allowed him to, like, grant this guy's exception request that, like, got him out of, like, the the, you know, the the kind of hopper to get fed into the genocide machine. And it's like it's in the same way that, like, what Wallenberg was doing with a lot of these Nazis who were trying to load Jews onto onto trains, he was disrupting what they were doing by activating something that was deeper programmed in them, the idea that. Like, yeah, if a guy who claims to be a government official comes up to you and you're a state employee and tells you to stop what you're doing because it's illegal, you kind of stop, right? Right. Yeah. And there there's a there's a book on rescuers during the Holocaust, I think it's called, like, the psychology of rescue. I can't remember exactly what it's called, but they point out that one of the ways that many people rescued people wasn't because they had some deep seated revulsion of. Of of naziism. Or even they they. Maybe they didn't even like Jews all that much. But one of the things that stuck out, especially in the case of, like, that doctor, not that I'm calling him a rescuer. He was a literal Dr at a concentration camp, but his psychology was like, well, he put in a request, as he should. I reproved it like, I'm not saving this man's life. I'm simply doing my job. Yeah, like, you know, there there was a, like a bureaucratic shield in front of them where they didn't see what they were doing is necessarily good or bad. They're simply doing their job. And This is why I'm, oh God, I forget the name of the guy who wrote bloodlands, which is a great book about the the genocide in in primarily like East or in like Ukraine and Poland will point out that the areas in which the Jewish communities were most thoroughly destroyed were places that had suffered what he called double state destruction, which is where like, the government is destroyed. Another government came in and it was in this case, it's like the the Soviets took over, they destroyed the existing government and then the Soviets were destroyed and the government structure they took. They they had created was destroyed and you saw higher percentages of like, the Jewish population wiped out on those areas than you didn't say France, where the Nazis just kind of took over and tweaked the existing state structure. And part of it is because there was bureaucratic there. There were levels of bureaucracy that people could hide in and that provided, like kind of excuses for folks to save their lives, right. A lot of the Jews who were saved in Western Europe were saved because, like, some functionary was able to find a way that it wasn't technically illegal. To, like, protect them, you know? Umm anyway, it's probably worth talking about propaganda at some point here, because while we've been, I think. Intel like rightfully cautioning people against over like amplify over amplifying the value of a eliminationist propaganda and genocide because it's all the popular culture tends to focus on. Yes, it is a factor right? It's not a non factor genocide. And in the context of modern fears about a new genocide, a number of folks recently have made very direct comparisons between modern right wing media and radio and radio stations in Rwanda during that genocide. This line of argument. Became particularly common in the wake of the Buffalo shooting, in which a teenaged white supremacist killed 10 people at a grocery store in a majority black area because the shooter espoused the great replacement conspiracy theory, which Tucker Carlson also pushes, a lot of folks claim to causative link between the two. I will tell you right now, there was none, Tucker. The kid was radicalized elsewhere, right? Not that Tucker Carlson is not saying things that can, that can influence people to participate in mass killing. I'm not saying that, but this kid that that's not where this happened from. And similarly, like Scott, Scott Strauss wrote research paper on RTLM, which is the main power radio station broadcasting out of Kigali. And it didn't. I mean, I'm not saying it didn't have an effect. It did. Marginally, and I mean, and I think that shows again what we we talked about that wall propaganda is real. It's not the magic bullet. So, like people have this concept of RTLM as being machete. Radio is like is a term commonly used for it, but it hardly broadcasted outside of the capital of Kigali due to geography. Rawanda has tons of mountains. Radio doesn't like mountains. So, and not to mention like some of the worst killings. Took place in a southern commune which had no RTLM reception. So, like, similarly, these people were influenced by other means to do mass killing. Not this thing that makes it easier for us to understand. Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah. I think when it comes to kind of the way in which this incorrect view of what happened in Rwanda is getting sort of like compared with things today, a good example would be NPR. Steve Inskeep, who tweeted, quote, a fact about Rwandan genocide, has always struck with me. The ruling party caused much of the killing by going on the radio and telling ethnic Hutus that ethnic Tutsis must be killed, along with Hutus who disapproved. Many people listened and dismembered their neighbors. For a brief overview of the Rwanda, we're getting into all of this, but let's let's give an overview. So Rwanda was a Belgian colony for a long time. And if you know, the Belgians, they did them some genocide in the regions that they ran things. Yeah. Now the Tutsis were used as their model natives, right, and favored over the Hutu. This is a thing that every colonizing power does absolutely everywhere. And it's caused a lot of anger between the Hutus and the Tutsis, who previously had not really been all that separate. Right. As, like, they weren't even an ethnic group. It was a social class. Exactly. It was very fluid. Who could become a Tutsi? The Tutsi could become a Hutu. The the because it's easier for them as the colonizers. They solidify this and part of what they do is they put out a system of racial ID's which further and formalize this division. Now this does support one of Doctor Stanton's 10 stages of genocide. But it also interestingly makes the point that stages don't all need to be purposefully incited in order to drive people towards genocide. Because the Belgians are just doing this because they're lazy and this makes it easier to run a colony. But it does help, and this is a big part of why. Genocide happens and it's part of why they're able to know who's a Hutu and who's a Tutsis. Well, because we have ******* carts, you know? Yep. Then they then that probably, like you were just talking about propaganda, that propaganda takes over and then over generations it becomes real like that. Yeah, like divide. It doesn't matter if it's real or fake. It's it's perceived as being real. Therefore it's real now. In any case, in 1994, following the assassination of the President during a very ugly civil war, Hutu government and military officials orchestrated A3 month ****. Of racial violence, culminating in the massacre of more than 500,000 people. In the aftermath of the killings, a lot focused on the broadcasts of specific radio stations, notably RTLM and how announcers referred to Tutsi as in Yezi, which means cockroach, and advised listeners to hunt them down and massacre them. There were cases where violence was clearly caused by radio broadcasts. On April 12th the broadcaster claimed armed Tutsi were at an Islamic Center in Kigali. A day later, a mob stormed the mosque and killed hundreds of people. That same day, the announcer came back on the air and urged people to exterminate Tutsi and stop them from taking power. So certainly not claiming that the radio had no influence on what would happen. Of course not. No, there's a reason why they were all convicted of genocide. Yes, journalists and scholars seized on this as an explanation for the nightmarish slaughter, which seemed kind of inexplicable otherwise. Unfortunately, this led to descriptions of events that sounded more than a little ******* racist. And I'm going to quote Strauss here. Obvious Strauss isn't the one being the racist, but he's quoting other peoples how they interpreted this. I believe Darrell Lee is who he's quoting parts. Yeah, I think one of them. But yeah, writing in the preface to a Seminole study, for example, are you? An investigator claimed that Rwanda in Rwandan media, where the vector by which the poison of racist propaganda is spread. Similarly, Melvern claims in order to commit genocide, it is necessary to define the victim as being outside human existence, vermin and subhuman. In Rwanda, the propaganda campaign against the minority Tutsis was relentless in its incitement to ethnic hatred and violence, another observer, a journalist, asserts when the radio said it was time to kill the people opposed to the government. Masses slid off a dark edge into insanity. The UN investigator quoted above similarly concluded that the poison of radio propaganda is all the more effective because, it is said the Rwandan peasant has a radio culture of holding a transistor up to his ear in one hand and holding a machete in the other, waiting for orders emitted by RTLM. That's pretty racist, right? It reduces them to like a murdering automaton. Exactly. And what a lot of people are missing when you like, when you read passages like that and that one about the machete in one hand radio? That's not Darrell Lee, that's someone else. But one of the things that they're leaving out is our TLM only started about six months before the Genesis. Yeah. Where? Where? Yeah. Well yeah, it's it was not this was not like deeply rooted into their culture. Radio called half of Rome now I believe has no radio signal at all. It is worth noting that like this is a very centralized state. It had been centralized under the Belgians Rwanda, still quite centralized today. And like that's not a non factor in stuff, but like it is not this that people are not just like, oh radio said to murder time. Though murder, I guess This is why I'm doing it. It's very racist. It it takes away everything. Yeah. And and it's even it's worse because it also allows you to couch this and like, well, they're illiterate and you know, they're they did have a high illiterate population, but they're illiterate and therefore they're not as intelligent as I enlightened person from the outside. That's why this when this radio tells me to go man a checkpoint with a machete and kill everybody, I'm simply going to do it. There's this thing we had that we had these episodes. On general **** naked in the Liberian Civil War recently. And, you know, I had to make a point of because so much of what happens is so lurid, and it gets reported as, like, look at this, like, these crazy, like, witch doctor, like, cannibals and stuff. And someone accused me on Reddit of, like, trying to mitigate what he did by going into how it's not really any different from Western war crimes. And it's the same thing with Rwanda. It's not like, yes, there are elements of Rwandan culture that made this are part of why this happened, right. And some of that is how centralized the state and government is. And you can say the same thing about Germany that had an impact on why things occurred the way that they did. There's nothing different about the centralization. They weren't like Rwandans weren't commanded by their radios to do a genocide anymore than Germans were commanded by Hitler over the radio to do a genocide. There was a continuum of things that were going on that made people willing to participate in this. And it's a lot more complicated than they had a radio in their ear. It's God kill course. I mean, not to mention that they check literally every block of, like, Strauss's risk. Risk factor for genocide for like they've had previous massacres. Paul Harbor and Mia, who I believe his first name is Paul, who is president. That was shot down. Had since the Civil War been ceding more and more power to the Hutu power dynamic to rally power around himself because they were losing. Yeah, so he had seated more and more power to the incredibly far radical extreme of the Hutu power. So by the time he was dead, he had effectively already lost power. That's why. One of the major overlying conspiracy theories is he was shot down by the Hutu Power section. Nobody's entirely sure, but they think he was. And that is like the inciting incident of the Genesis. The president's plane gets shot down. It's still a mystery as to exactly what happened. Anyway, Strauss goes on to note that quote, most discussions of Rwandan media affects attribute little or no agency to listeners. The Rwandan public is often characterized as hearing a drum beat of racist messages and directly internalizing them, or as hearing orders to kill and heeding the command. Those views are consistent with stereotypes about Rwandans, namely, that they obey. Orders blindly that they are poorly educated and thus easily manipulated, and that they are immersed in a culture of prejudice. Now Strauss carried out an exhaustive analysis of massacres in Rwanda, where they occurred in relation to broadcast towers. In particular, he looked at the strength of those towers and where they could reach, and wind massacres occurred in relation to specific broadcasts. His conclusion was that the vast majority of the violence could not be explained by urgings to kill from radio personalities, and then, in fact, most of the broadcast people cited as inciting things happened after most of the violence. Occurred. The follow up investigation from another group of academics used a village level data set from the genocide to estimate the impact of RTLM in encouraging genocide. The attributed roughly 10% of the overall violence to the station, which is a lot. Don't get me wrong, that's a lot. That's a lot for a radio station to incite and noted that these broadcasts had more of an influence on convincing militias who were organized and radicalized to kill ahead of time to go after specific targets. And then those militias would rope in civilians rather than again, people just like. Again, those folks prior to ******* radio being involved were already ready to kill. They moved into an area because a specific target was signposted by the radio, and they would rope civilians and through coercion and a variety of other means that we've already talked about. So yeah, radio in in mass media, absolutely no. No reasonable scholar would argue does not play a significant role in genocide. But consistent with the research of guys like Staubin Strauss, the willingness to participate in such violence exists on a continuum. Even a most Rwandan radio inspired massacres were committed by dudes who joined militias. So yeah, the article by Reinarman and Wilson I cited earlier notes of Rwanda quote a need for social belonging can result in a motivation for an individual to want to conform to his or her group. Leading to participation in order not to stick out and to be able to remain part of the Group A member of a group interview interviewed by Hatfield mentioned the strong bond to the group with whom he killed during the genocide. We liked being in our gang, we all agreed about the new activities and we helped each other out, like comrades, their need. And again, it's traumatic to partake in this kind of killing and trauma bonds people together, you know? So even in those situations where killings can be tied to particular broadcasts, it's ignorant to blame the propaganda in a vacuum, just as it's kind of ignorant to blame the propaganda Tucker Carlson spits out for the Buffalo shooting. Tucker is allowed to do what he does because people listen, and those people were conditioned to listen by folks other than Tucker, generations of right wing media and also family and friends, right? The fact that he's able to get up there and spread great replacement ******** is the end part of a continuation of propaganda and and hatred. That you could type, you could you could pull right back to the Civil War if you want to, like, go back far enough, you know, Umm, which doesn't mitigate Tucker's complicity in it at all, but it's not, no, he's not generating it. You know, he's not generating it. He's, he's a he's a stage in a a long procession. I think someone pointed out that he might be one of the first extremist that was radicalized by his own audience. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big factor because he's doing it in part because it gets him the views because it gets people to listen right. And that's the same thing that happens with a lot of people who get radicalized. Online, right when we talk about the way like 4 Chan and eight Chan work where like, people come into it like joking about this stuff, and overtime radicalize each other and into supporting the literal actions. Because there's no such thing as ironic racism. No, there's no ironic racism, and there's no iron. There's no lone wolves. People are radicalized for violence in communities and by communities. It's shared jokes, it's shared lingo. It's a desire for acceptance. It's a variety of different things that, like, push people here. Now, of course, again, obedience to authority can be one of these things, but it's it's authority doesn't always mean like, a few or sometimes it's the authority of like the kind of group consensus about what's cool, you know, about what's funny, about what's good. Obviously, like one of the things that gets talked about that got, and this is something that like I think is maybe a little more debatable when we talk about like the role of authority in genocide is the Milgram experiment, right. That's get this gets talked about a lot. And in short, the Milgram experiment consisted of, I think he didn't want the 70s, seventies. Yeah. I think it may have been earlier than I think it's because these went on for a while. But the experiment consisted of experimenters because Milgram was trying to study like, why do people like he was looking at the just following orders excuse that a lot of Nazis made and being like, well, is that the case? And basically he he would have a student deliver electric shocks to a patient who was actually an actor, but the student who was the test subject thought that they were really shocking the person. And like, a dude with a clipboard would tell them to periodically increase the voltage until it got up to a level that was noted as being potentially lethal. And the people who were delivering the shock, some of them would cry. A lot of them would argue they were generally all pretty unhappy, but most would deliver the shocks when ordered to do so by an authority figure, Straub writes. Quote Milgram suggested that people can enter an agentic mode in which they relinquish individual responsibility and act as agents of authority. While obedience is an important force, it is not the true motive for mass killing or genocide. The motivation to obey comes from a desire to follow a leader, to be a good member of a group, to show respect for authority. Those who willingly accept the authority of leaders are likely to have also accepted their views and ideology. Guided by shared cultural dispositions, the shared experience of difficult life conditions, shared motivations that result from them, and shared inclinations for ways to satisfy motives, people join rather than simply obey out of fear or respect. We must we must consider not only how those in authority gain obedience, but how the motivations of the whole group evolve. Milgram's dramatic demonstration of the power of authority, although of great importance, may have slowed the development of a psychology of genocide, as others came to view obedience as the main source of human destructiveness. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's. Always interested, especially because when the the main points, I believe, of that experiment was that they were told repeatedly they could quit whenever they want. Yes. And the person in the room with them, I believe could only say you must continue the experiment. Yeah, but like, yeah. And that of course directly inspired the writing of ordinary men and amongst other things. Yeah. And it it definitely allows the dispersion of personal responsibility, if you believe you're big of a power of of a bigger structure. And I another another thing I think is key is dispersion of your own personal responsibility into a structure you believe is in Putin's like you know it's not going to be held accountable for anything that it does. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's again like so and and and stabs not saying like this isn't a factor or like the Milgram experiment doesn't say anything useful about genocide. It's the it's the kind of boiling at all that people want to say like one thing. Right. And and it isn't and it's like and also just like. The the fact that people are like following authority isn't just as simple as like they're following orders. It means that like they are, they are. Their motivation is a desire to be in a power structure underneath an authority. And they accept the views and the values of that authority, right, which is more complicated than just. Thus just I will follow orders. You know, there's and and this is an area in which, like the authoritarian culture of Germany prior to the Nazi rise of power affected the willingness of people to participate in the the instrument of genocide. Umm. Yeah, it's cool and I I think it is. It's important to have a more complicated. Understanding of like, what can motivate people to this than just I do whatever the leader tells me. Because yeah, that's not where genocide start. All genocide starts with the willingness of human beings to partake in the act itself, right? Like that is. Or if if not start because it may be wrong to like, prescribe it that way, but that you can't have a genocide without the willingness of of the of the people, of people to participate. Not just to participate, but to welcome, or at least. Not like discourage the people doing the participation, right? Like folks like it. It's it's never, it's never. One thing. Like societies are are more complicated than that, and genocides are accomplished by societies, right? They're not accomplished by dudes who suck. Yeah, and and to be completely clear, we're not saying that like, genocides occur because of like, the marginalized, targeted outgroup is not resisting hard enough. It's lay people that could escape. Yes. No problem. It's this. It's the slow incoming tide that you're fined with. Like, yeah, well, like to like stereotypically there's a famous poem about this, you know? It's it's one like, well, you know, this law in Florida isn't really a big deal. I don't live in Florida. Well, millions of ******* people do. Yeah, yeah, the the idea that like, haha, well this is what the right gets, you know, this bad thing happening in Florida because they wouldn't vote against us. Like, no, no, no. This is a problem and it's the same people who are are dumb enough to believe that this isn't gonna go nationwide after a while. I are the the most naive ************* have ever heard of. And it this is a deeper naivety than just that. I would extend it to people who say, Oh well, it's not it's not our business like I don't like I'm not going to. I can dismiss the mass killings of of protesters in Syria because that's over there, you know. Oh, now suddenly millions of refugees. Flooded Europe and it's reignited a far right. And Victor Orban has seized and centralized and into democratic functional democracy in Hungary. And now the Republicans are holding a CPAC there, talking about how to do the same here. Like, but like every like, I forgot that they had CPAC. And yeah, they sure did. You, you. It's all like, you. You can't, you can't abrogate your responsibility to to be a part of the human race. And that includes being like, well, this is like that. That's what actual like resistance to fascism. That's right. Is is like comprehensively calling out bad **** is bad. Like that's not not not being like, well, it's in Florida, you know? Well, it's in tell stupid South Campbell lol. Stupid S right. Like it's it's it's taking as much offense to like acts of evil that occur far away as the ones that happen, like next door. Because like everything, like eventually it will, it's the same like climate change, right? It's it's like it's not being like. Yeah, well, **** California. I live up here in Washington state where climate change will never hit us. They're like, right, right? Yeah. This is the difficult thing about it, and it's and I think it's even harder for people to grasp. When it literally doesn't impact them at all. Yeah, there is. I mean the vast majority of people in any coming or future genocide like rarely are they going to be directly impacted if they if they don't want to be unless you are of course the out party, but like you know a random guy and you know Duluth, MN like he's not going to be impacted by this, but the hard part and the the key for prevention is realizing that if you want to prevent this from happening. It needs to be made important to the point that people who literally cannot have no role in it can make a role in it by stopping it. Because obviously these things are going to impact outgroups minorities, racial, ethnic, religious, or otherwise. They're not. They purposefully do not have a voice that can stop this from happening. Nope. That's why they're being targeted. Yeah, so. Row an egg it Ron DeSantis. It's the conclusion we've made here. Or or Abbott. Abbott could use use an egg. You know that ******* guy. Give him all good egging. Egg it out like that. Like that kid in Australia. Oh, I forgot about that kid. Kids. It was a good kid. Good. We find out he did something terrible immediately afterwards. I think he raised a bunch of money for some nice cause. Ohh, nice. People were paying attention to him. I don't know. Hopefully someone. Like, I know, please don't milkshake duck that kid for me. Well, Joe, I don't know. How do you feel at the end of this genocide? Yay or nay, I'm, you know, I'm going to be a centrist on this one. No. No one can say some people like genocide, some people dislike, some people support we compromise. Yeah. We're going to compromise to everything that they've ever said. No, I mean, I got into this field because it's very important to me both in my in in my history and you know, in the future. It's it's something that's the history of these things are important so we can stop revisionism from coming and taking place and also so we can help prevent it in the future and hopefully we can make prevention something that is not like. A weird thing to bring up. No. So go out and don't commit genocide. That's that's the key here, is that is definite, definite. Look, there's a lot of debates as to how to prevent it, but don't do a genocide. We we ask that. That's the baseline we ask of our listeners is please do not participate in an act of genocide. We're lowering the bar here. Yeah, the bar is through the floor. Unlike some of our sponsors, including the Washington State Highway Patrol and **** those guys, I used to live in Washington and they're the worst. We had a very funny one star review of someone being like, I thought I was gonna love this podcast, but then they started talking **** about the Washington State Highway Patrol. I have two, two relatives in the the Highway Patrol and they're both like wonderful men who are not violent at all. I I would really like to believe that they listen to like the behind the police series. Like, yeah, this sounds fun. Yeah, up until they were totally down with ******** on every other Police Department and so we got to the one there cousin was in. Yeah, yeah. **** the Saint Louis college. Wait a second. We're the good one. Yeah. Bow tie wear and *****. My, my cousins in the Washington State Highway Patrol aren't violent at all. T-shirt is bringing up a lot of questions answered by my chair. Yeah. I'm not allowed around their families anymore. They're not allowed outside their house. It's weird. Umm anyway, Joe, you got any plegables? Yeah. Have you ever done a podcast before this? Has that happened in the world? I'm the host of the Lions led by Donkeys podcast. We talked about **** *** and military history. We also talked extensively about genocide. Specifically we talked about it. We've talked about Nanking. We've talked about the Namibian genocide. We've talked for seven hours about the Cambodian genocide, though I promise it's not all that heavy. We do other stuff too. No, if you want that, then you're going to have to go to the genocide cast with, with with rock and Robbie and. The, the, the but John Wilson married. That's the drive time radio show. I was doing a radio. God, yeah, but I I didn't think it out very well, but I'm a morning zoo crew. Morning screen. That's just about did it. Well, it's six in the morning. We got a lot of traffic backed up on the I-5. You know what else got backed up on a highway? Good stuff. Alright, episodes over, go home. Behind the ******** is a production of cool zone media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to That's Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioral discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Listen to amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. From Tenderfoot TV in iHeartRadio this is La Monstra, a story of abomination and conspiracy. The story about the man who's simply become known as. Lamaster. 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