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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. If you could completely remove one phrase from your vocabulary, which phrase would you choose? I don't know. Correct answer. No, I meant I don't know which phrase, and the best way to banish I don't know from your life is by cramming your brain full of stuff you should know. Join your host, Josh and Chuck on the Super Popular podcast packed with fascinating discussions on science, history, pop culture and more episodes that ask, was the lost city of Atlantis Real? I don't know. Is birth order important? I don't know. How does pizza work? Well, I do know. Bit about that. See? You can know even more, because stuff you should know has over 1500 immensely interesting episodes for your brain to feast on. So what do you say? I don't want to miss the stuff you should know. Podcast you're learning already. Listen to stuff you should know on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode we're speaking. With Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioral discoveries on chimpanzees, it wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Listen to amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Fireblaze. Behind the ******** the podcast about crimes against humanity. I'm. Legally distinct from that mouse, I had to do it. The Sophie hated it when you did it off mic and you were just like making a joke to prop and I about how you should do it. Love it. I really hated it. And, like, I don't think you sound like the mouse that you're trying to take. I think you sound like, you know, it's like Donald Glover in that episode of Atlanta when he left when he's not Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ohh. That was that was a that's a good episode of that show. Oh, wait. I'm sorry. I'm going along. I need to go along with the bit. This is ohh, are you are you doing? Oh, wow. Kermit the prompt. Kermit. Kermit the prop. I'm a mouse. Would you like to talk about the starvation genocide of an island? Haha. Well, if we need to. Something that the creator of this mouse was probably broadly fine with, huh? I hope both of you get made fun of on the Internet. Here's the thing. I feel like our level of, like, cool can take this sort of hit. I feel like it. We're we we can't be cancelled for making Mickey Mouse supportive of a genocide. The NNI mean Kermit is one of the most beloved frogs. He is. He's a meme, he drinks tea and everyone. Kermit would never support a genocide. No, not at all. I mean, maybe tacitly with his tax dollars, because he's not really a fighter, but we all do right now, and then we all support the going long. It's not really a bit it's more of like a mediation about the necessity of supporting terrible things just because you exist within a society where you don't have total control over so far. You cannot help the ocean. You can't help the ocean from being saltwater. Yeah, those dogs just is. Yep. It just is. It just tell you. Umm, yeah. Speaking of salt water, you ready to get salty? Oh my God. I mean, just call me sodium chloride, baby. At the end of last episode we talked about Lord Hates Berry, who was like, I don't think we know if this famine thing's going to be a real problem yet. Let's just hold off. Now we're name on the nose. Now we're going to have another guy. The really horrible name, but he's he's he's actually kind of chill, kind of cool. He's not one of the real problems here, because there are. It's worth noting, while overwhelmingly the English government allowed this to happen and in many cases directly enabled the deaths that are coming, there were people who were had prominence in the government, like O'Connell that we've talked about, but also folks who were English, who tried very hard to do something. And one of them was the. Unfortunately named Sir Edward Pine Coffin, who doesn't seem like the kind of guy who's going to try to help. But pine coffin. Edward pine coffin. And that is spelled like, exactly. OK, listen, we're in a simulation, bro. I'm Janet corpse box. That's his American cousin. Yeah. We're, we're, we're in a simulation because like, somebody wrote that script. There's, yeah, one of the fun things is actually in terms of coffins. So one of the reasons you would want to go to like a workhouse. And we'll talk about these. Or later, but these are like the places poor people go well during. The worst parts of the famine is that when you die you get a coffin. Which you can't, you can't afford otherwise. Right. They provide. You can't guarantee that that's good. So you get a box, but also you don't because they just put you in the common in the coffin long enough to take you to the mass grave and then they dump you. Oh my God. Yeah. And then they throw you all on a master. Yo, that's steering wheel. Just jerk to the. You got me there. And I was like, OK, well, at least you get it. Oh, wait, never mind. And one of the things, so with these mass graves I'll a decent number of people get buried alive, which is the thing that always happens in mass graves. You find a lot of stories like that. On the Holocaust, one of the differences in when they realize someone is alive in the mass grave here, they do try to rescue trying to get him out as opposed to like just shooting them more, which is what the Nazis did. So I guess that's a mark. I mean, it's British Empire. No, it's not. Yep, I guess, yeah. So Edward Pine Coffin is the deputy Commissioner of the Government Relief Agency responsible for Ireland and Scotland's potato crop had failed because, again, this potato failure. This is part of why people again reject calling it the potato famine. There are failures of potato crops all throughout Europe. It happens everywhere. The starvation happens in Ireland. So when Scotland's potato crop fails, pine coffin commandeers a warship, fills it with food and sales around the coast of Scotland. Distributing it in starving villages and he tries to do the same thing in Ireland, but Travelion stops him because Trevallion is the guy who controls the purse strings, so pine coffin can't spend the money he needs to fill these boats up with food without trevallion, say ahead. And while everybody's fine with that food, with money getting spent on the Scottish trevilians, like, not these people, though. Not these people. What's the difference, trevillian? So Pine Coffin has to watch, helpless and pretty enraged, as like. He's unable to take ships and food to Ireland, but he keeps watching these ships filled with food depart and increasingly starved island. So people begin dying heavily in 1846, but before they die a lot of them are forced to make the decision. Do we spend because we did have crops right, which we can either sell to pay our rent or we can eat, but if we eat the food that we have, then we can't pay rent and we will get evicted right now. I know if you know this, but Ireland prop pretty wet. They're warm, not a warm part of the world, not famous for its balmy weather. Even in the summer it can be quite rough at night for people like it, and especially during like the fall and winter, it gets very cold and it's very wet. And by the way, these people are so poor they don't have like, like, they don't own jackets. Oftentimes they have sold, basically. They're like people sold everything, partly naked because they have sold anything they have. That could possibly be a value to try to feed their children. So she not without being indoors, people will die, and if they don't sell their food and turn it into rent money, they're going to get kicked out and be in the just like wandering the countryside, and they will starve to death or die of of exposure. Being evicted is basically a death sentence for a lot of people, and this happens on a massive scale. Whole villages are depopulated and sent just wandering muddy pathways in the countryside. Thinking for help that often did not come and people begin to die in their thousands. Entire communities starve, basically like kicked out of their homes. Now, one of the few options for sucker were the so-called workhouses. These were operated by local landlords. And again, we've been talking again, this is one of those situations where broadly speaking, the landlords are the problem. There are individual landlords who do do things like who are, you don't have to pay rent, you know. Yeah, you can find I would spend more time reading their stories, but I'm worried it would kind of take away from the people who are monsters. But there are. And and to his credit, Coogan, who's the historian that's the major source for this, goes into some detail. There are individual. Like landlords who do take very reasonable steps to preserve life and put that up their profits, and that is a thing that happens. And it's worth acknowledging that not partly because it condemns the people who don't do that more. It is not like every landlord doesn't do the same thing. Some of them help, you know? And it's one of those things also in terms of things we can criticize people for, even though he is probably the best politician of his day in terms of famine relief, who has any power, peel is adamant that local landlords should be the ones dealing with the famine problem. It should be up to them, right? And this quote from Coogan's book makes it clear how badly the situation tended to work because you have these kind of local landlords who are managing these workhouses, quote, a workhouse was built. On the Martin Estate at Clifton and County Galway, Martin was an eccentric figure known for his gambling, for his fearsome prowess as a duelist and for his kindness to animals, which led him to found the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and to be nicknamed Humanity. ****. So. Oh my God, hold on to that for a second. Listen, we're in a simulation. Got somebody writing this screen. You got a problem with humanity, ****? I, I, don't. I, I, just, I, I, I again, this story. We really need to go back to like the the editor here because y'all names keep telling the story. Both your names are spoiler alerts like OK sanity, **** humanity **** lived in splendor at Ballynahinch Castle on a huge estate comprising some 200,000 acres and including parts of Mayo and most of Connemara, that incredibly beautiful but barren area of County Galway stretching westward from Galway city along Galway Bay, skirting the coastline until it reaches the open Atlantic a workhouse. It was built on the estate at Clifton, even though it was notorious for being crippled by debts, mainly through Martin's gambling. The King of Connemara, as he was referred to in Ireland, had had to flee the country several years earlier. Upon losing his parliamentary immunity on his death in 1834, his son Thomas became his heir. During the famine, Thomas died from a fever contracted while inspecting the awful conditions in the overcrowded workhouse, which could not cope with the demands placed upon it. The workhouse went bankrupt and had to close, with catastrophic results for its inmates, Clifton and its environs. The Martin Estate was subsequently put up for auction, and one of its principal attractions, as cited by the auctioneers, was the fact that none of the tenants who had lived on the estate before the famine lived there any longer. Given the population density per acre at the time, this could have indicated a death toll of some 200,000 people. So because this family of rich people goes bankrupt, there is no help and potentially 200,000 people starve to death. What's this area alone? What do you do in a workhouse? Is it like? Or is it just called workouts? Yeah. Yeah. I mean you there, there's basically you receive a small amount of food, Umm. And you do you work like there's different kind of things they have. You do. Some of these people are like the ones who are digging these, who are building these roads to nowhere and ****. Like there's a variety of things that they might have you do, but they're also not a ton of people can fit in these workhouses, they are the difference between life and death for some people. But the fact that they are, they're not funded by the Imperial government, right? They are funded kindness, yeah. And out of by these local landlords, which means if your landlord's doing good and if he's someone who's financially responsible, maybe your workhouse is is a lifeline. But in Connemara, this family are because of their gambling debts, like loses everything. And that means there's just, there's no ******* help for these people. And yeah, like 200,000 people starve to death. Yeah, it's a problem that's not good. That's that's a lot of people to starve to death. Maybe the biggest consequence of a gambling addiction that we've run across on this. I would say this is probably, yeah, pretty up there. It's pretty up there. Yeah. Humanity ****. If only he'd had some help. Humanity ****. So this brings what an incredible name. And this brings us to a particularly horrifying fact, which is, again, the failure of the potato crop was not the biggest part of the famine, the mass evictions. Virus tenants by landlords killed. Most like at least as many people, if not many more people. And here's the thing we've been focusing mostly on, like, because the crops fail, like they have to either buy food or they can't pay their rent. Like a whole bunch of things happen. **** gets too expensive, they can't afford their rent and they get evicted, right? That's the the most obvious way for this to happen. That's not the only reason evictions happen. So you know how Instagram works in what way? You know how? Like, there's there's someone, like decide to paint their nails and like a certain. Very elaborate way. And do a video on it and suddenly that'll go huge. And then, like, there's a bunch of videos like that, you know, that that kind of thing works like trends. You know, it's not just Instagram, but like, things get popular. Yeah. And then everybody wants to do a version of that same thing. Well, that kind of happens with rich landlords and a thing called high farming. High farming, yeah. Which is basically like clearing areas of of agriculture in the way that it had been done in order to make more room for to to graze sheep in order to, like, raise a bunch of sheep. Basically, so all these landlords, their friends start doing this. And the problem is that, like, if you want to clear up all of your land to Gray sheep to to be hip and cool and get into this neat new farming thing that all your friends are doing well, there's like, there's like people there, right? There's people that live on this land. There's like there's like 10s of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people living on that land. But it is your land and you have the right to evict them at any moment. So you want to get up on this trend. What do you do? You evict the people, you evict them all. This is what happens when. It's because it's not like we can grow crops. Well, no, you wanna you. It's time for sheep. Yeah. She's going to say and yeah, that's like that's so that's so we've done crops. That's boring. Yeah, that's that's last. Everybody does crops. I wanna do sheet. So Lord Lord Lucan evicts 400 families in his Mayo estates during like the the, the, the rising peak of the famine in order to clear get grazing area for sheep. And again, this is because this has gotten like really popular from the aristocracy. From the aristocracy. And so a lot of these rich people start getting into sheep farming and evicting whole village. These are. Yeah, ethnic cleansings. They are cleansing an area of its indigenous population. Where do they and what do they expect them to go? Oh, they're not. You're just going to. Yeah. Not. Why would it be your problem? It's your land. You can have them leave if you want. You know, they don't like. That's not that's not on you. Yeah. Y'all cost too much. There's more money in cheap. Because then even you. Yeah, you can't feed yourself anymore. So yeah, so I might as well kick you off and try this new thing. And that way I could be cool like my friends. So it is prop hard to exaggerate how enraging some of these stories can be. Oh my God, the village of Ballyglass was a fairly rare find in Ireland. The people there had been allowed by their landlady to improve their land and they had created a very prosperous community. So prosperous, in fact, that they all lived in stone houses, which was very rare at the time. I think there were 61. Family, so a few 100 people. So after years of clearing bogland and improving their land in order to make it more productive, improvements which probably would have allowed them to survive the famine because they've done it, they've been able to do a really good job of improving things. Suddenly their landlady, Miss Gerard, decides she wants to get into high farming. So she evicts them all, kicks them right out, kicks them right out. And I'm going to quote from the famine plot here. On the morning of March 30th, 1846, a detachment of troops and police showed up to eject the people from their homes, their belongings. Were thrown out and the roofs of their houses tumbled. It was made clear to the people in surrounding areas that if they took in the evictees, they would suffer the same fate. And so the evicted people passed from door to door, vainly seeking shelter. In desperation they erected temporary shelters and ditches, or constructed what would become a common sight that year across the Irish countryside. Scalps these consider consisted either of Poles covered by sods that were stretched across a ditch, or if the ditches were filled with water as they frequently were, they simply dug a hole in the ground or in the shelter. The end of a Gable and they're tumbled house and covered this with sticks and sods. But in Ballyglass, as elsewhere, the bailiffs returned in the days following the evictions to destroy the scalps and move people out of the landlord's land. So again, when they say tumbling, they in order to stop anyone from reoccupying a house, they destroy the roof. Just the roof. That's all you need. Then then it. Then it'll rain in there and people can't stay, can't keep a fire going. I won't keep you warm. Right? OK, so you're so, you're so. Efficient at evil. But like. You're all thumbs on. Doing anything decent like that is like you just saying I well. You said they're stone houses, so Yep, it would be a lot more effort or work. So it's more efficient to just let the rain do the work. I'll just knock the roof down so, so you can think logically and say I'm like, yeah, that's that is. That is. In the most perverse way, the shortest distance between two points, like, yeah, yeah, makes perfect sense. It's it makes perfect sense. But y'all could not figure out. How to not have? How to not have your people starve. OK, yeah. I mean, I I think a lot reading this about. I spent a lot of time because Portland has a substantial population of unhoused people in and around, just as part of my daily life encampments, and a lot of them sound very familiar in that because it's also very rainy here. You will have people who will like kind of set up lean to type structures that are partly in ditches because it provides some shelter from the wind. But then when it rains, they flood, right? And no matter what people do, the cops are going to come by. Periodically and sweep them out. And so oftentimes they'll do it right before a storm or right before you know the the the temperature drops and ****. Not that. I mean, they're literally sending cops to kick people out of there, like, crumble down houses and knock down what little shelters they've been able to make. Yo, it's not even a house. Yeah, like, come on, guys. This is an eviction genocide. Yes. Which I I don't know that I've heard about before. That's what's happening here. So back in Mary, Old England, the suffering of the Irish was often caused for mockery in the press that same year, The Economist magazine. Yeah, that that one, the one that's still around alleged that Irish suffering. I've been quote brought on by their own wickedness and folly. See the times? Yeah, baby, yeah, the economist. There it is. Good job. Economist. Hey, don't worry, there's other people we know who we're talking in this period of time. The Times of London, which also exists today, published articles on Ireland every single day. Its message was dizzyingly consistent. The Imperial government should not spend money on Irish relief. And I'm going to quote from RTE here. The worst famine in a century was depicted as an extension of normal recurring events and the newspaper. Consistently complained about the financial burdens forced on British workers for the sake of the starving Irish, on 15th September 1846, its editorial declared. It appears to us that the very first importance to all classes of Irish society is to impress on them that there is nothing really so peculiar, so exceptional in the condition which they look upon as the pit of utter despair, it continued. Is the English labourer to compensate the Irish peasant for the loss of potatoes and secure him a regular employer for this next 12 month? Why the English laborer isn't just the same case. They were not, they were not, they were not, they weren't. They sure weren't. Now, the Times argued that Ireland should pay for its own improvement, which you might say shipping 60% of the food they're out to England and other places is paying for your. That's why I'm like y'all either not hearing yourself or know what the hell you saying. Well, the times his argument is that because people were suffering. And because suffering only really happens when you are not willing to work to make your life better. The fact that things were desperate in Ireland, it was an example of quote, a case of permanent and inveterate national degradation. Yeah, Yep, yeah, I just, I like. I can't, I can't stress enough how in how the same artist it's that's like, that's the same, it's the same argument. It's the same argument now and and it just and like I'm like you. But we can all look back at the same. We could all rewind the tape to the same moment and can see how wrong they are for saying that. Like, you can see that that's not their, that that's your fault, that they can't eat. You can. So how are people still making the same? Argument now about poverty? Yeah, it is the same. Like, that's the thing. It's not it. It's what always happens. You know, it's this. It must be their own fault. Because if it's not their own fault, then perhaps, number one, I would have to account for the fact that maybe my success and my the things that I enjoy are not due to me doing anything to earn it. But also then perhaps if it's not their fault at all, and maybe it is the fault of a system that I benefit from, then it is incumbent upon me to make some changes. Yes, yes, and there it is. Way harder than just writing a column for The Economist, which is why people still write so many columns for the Economist. Absolutely. Absolutely. But you're you're nailing on something that I think is like, I know whenever I'm asked to do any sort of like DI training, it's that. It's that. Because if you admit that there is somebody suffering from this system unfairly, then that means you are unfairly being benefited for you and there's nothing special about your little nose. That, yeah. That's not going to be popular to the people who read the Times of London, no, but you know, it is popular to the people who read the Times of London. Every last one of these products and services we bought, you play a massive fan. Big followings in Europe. You guys may not know about it really big. So check it out. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. 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My name is Erica Kelly and I am the host and creator of Southern Freight true crime. There are so many people that just have no idea about some injustices in the world, and if you can give a voice to them, you can create change. To be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with Spreaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always feel like an ambassador for speaker, but that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love with speaker from iheart. Ohh, and Bachman, we're back, man. So in the winter of 1847, after this is like the third successive failure of the potato crop, right? The famine had already killed hundreds of thousands of people. Culture, art, music had all come to a sudden, horrid halt in Ireland as it was gripped by unimaginable suffering. Just before Christmas, a landlord named Walsh in Mayo personally led the eviction. Of three villages, local clergy had begged him to at least wait until after the holiday, but he refused. Homes were destroyed and everyone was forced out. One Quaker engaged in relief efforts later wrote. Quote. The people were all turned out of doors and the roofs of their houses pulled down. That night they made a tinter shelter of wooden straw. But however, the drivers, the bailiffs, threw them down and drove them from the place. It would have pitied the sun to look at them as they had to go head first into the storm. It was a night of high wind, and storm and wailing could be heard at a great distance. They implored the drivers to allow them to remain a short time, as it was so near the time of festival Christmas, but they would not. Previously 102 families had lived in the area, but after the eviction only the walls of three houses. Remained, and it's one of those things. These evictions are being carried out by both local law enforcement and by English soldiers like soldiers of the occupation. And a lot of these guys are shocked by the cruelty of the landlords that they're enforcing evictions for. There are cases of officers asked to use their troops to enforce evictions who found reasons to deny the requests. In one case in particular, Scottish soldiers lodged protests against being forced to evict families and even took up collections to give money to the people they were evicting now. The evictions continued. So this may be perhaps we should, as we acknowledge the fact that people felt horrible about this. That didn't stop anything, of course. That's a general rule, yeah, and these small acts of kindness did nothing to alleviate suffering on a broader scale. I want to quote now from another write up in RTE. By 1847, the sheer scale of eviction across Ireland prompted newspapers to employ special correspondents who visited the scene of clearances. Among the reporters in the field was James McCarthy, proprietor of the Limerick Examiner. Who led the way in reporting on the scenes of havoc and despair? McCarthy had no shortage of material to report on, particularly in counties Clare and Tipperary. Reporters like McCarthy were successful in harnessing public opinion and in some instances preventing eviction. It was often a perilous task, and McCarthy was assailed and insulted in the discharge of his duty by some of the disgruntled wretches who were employed in leveling the houses of the evicted tenants. Yet he was undeterred in reporting eviction, including at the Walter Estate in Limerick, where he described the evicted being left to. Borough into the Earth for shelter, the so-called exterminators were frequently challenged by the local press who were quick to report on the sensational aspects of eviction, especially where women and young children were ejected following evictions at the West Strip estate and Claire, it was reported that the body of a young boy had been found dead and eaten by dogs. Likewise, when Arthur Keely Usher cleared over 700 people at Bally Sagramore, Waterford was Bally Sagramore Waterford. It was reported that groups of famished women and crying children hovered. Ruins where they clung for refuge beneath the the crumbling chimneys. And again, when we talk about like what kills people, some people do starve to death. Some people die of exposure. A lot of people die of disease because disease spreads rampantly and you know, when you're kicking people out, you're forcing them into workhouses. Yeah, you're you're just spending nights out. You know, they don't have access to shelter, which makes their immune systems worse. Also, the potatoes they were eating were high in vitamin C so the fact that they don't have vitamin, like there's a number of things that are happening. We talk about like what's killing people. But as much as anything, this is an eviction genocide. That's a big part of what is occurring in Ireland, yeah. There was no organized resistance on a mass scale to evictions within the country. There were scattered murders and assaults on mayors and landlords, often from these kind of secret society groups we talked about in part, yeah, the evictors were not just absentee landlords and members of the aristocracy. Many of them were members of the growing English and Irish middle class who had purchased land prior to the famine or during its early days when people were forced to, like, flee their homes and so, like, went up for cheap. And it's worth noting that the largest landholder in Ireland during the famine and as a result, one of the largest evictors was Trinity College in Dublin. Whoa. Which, yeah, yeah, they were one of these. So this is not. I can see it, though. The leadership is coming kind of from the UK, but the plenty of Irish people are part of this, you know? Yeah. Another tale as old as time and I, I mean, I guess it's like. Yeah, you can see it like if you can, just if you don't think of it as like. You know old timey. Stuff and just think of it as just like you're just playing the numbers and especially the especially talk about this like rising middle crap, middle class. They're like. Yo, we ain't got no, we ain't got no nest egg. Like, there's we don't we don't come from all that. We we're barely getting this piece of land, and the only way for us to keep this land is we gotta pivot. I can't be having y'all on my land or I'm just going to lose it. Like, Lord, Lord, forbid me become one of you again. You know I'm saying so if you plan a numbers game. You know, forgetting that humanity, it's like. It's it's it's again, no different than the than the world we live in now during like I said, our plague. But people being like, I still have to pay the mortgage. So, like, I can't rent. I can't not collect rent. So it's like, I mean, I don't know what to say, dog. Like I I'd sucks, but I have to evict you or maybe it don't suck because you just like, why have I mean, I can't. I have to weather this storm. Yeah. You understand none of these landlords. I mean some of them are these just cartoonishly out of. Touch rich people who are like, well, I would like to have the, you know, I want to Gray sheep. Now let's get them off the land. But most people don't like to feel like monsters. Like, no, as a general rule, the people who are a part of this eviction genocide are not being like, no. You know, they're finding ways to be like, well, this is just what oftentimes it is. I mean, it's still pretty dire because they're saying that, like, well, I'm a Malthusian and I believe that, you know, overpopulation, the only thing that happens when there's overpopulation, that that's what causes famine, right. Rather than famine being a thing that happens and kills people, famine is caused by people breeding out of control. And so the real problem is that they breed and it's sad and it's tragic, but if we just feed them, then they're only going to breed more, and that's just going to cause more of a right. People find ways to justify it, to feel like it's not. They're not complicit in something nightmarish, as they always do, right as everybody who's complicit in something nightmarish is done throughout history. Now, it's worth noting that some of these evictions mirrored acts of genocide committed by the US government. One of the most striking was the Dulo Lake incident. This occurred between March 30th and 31st, 1849. A number of starving famine victims were ordered to show up at Lewisburg and be checked to see if they deserved relief tickets. Now this is what it sounds like this is again. Eventually there gets some, like plans implanted where people can get tickets that will entitle them to like some food and supplies and whatnot. So these people who are all actively starving to death. And often homeless, they assemble. They all go to Lewisburg. And in some cases means while starving, they have to walk miles to get there. So they show up at this place to try to get tickets that will give them the food they need to not starve to death. And they are told when they arrive, oh, there's been a mistake. And the people who can evaluate you are actually 16 kilometers away at this hunting village. So you've got to go walk there now. Right. So 4 to 600 people, maybe more like 1000. It's really not exactly known. Spend the night sleeping out in the freezing rain. Is what else are they gonna do? Yeah. And then they March 16 kilometres to this lodge and when they arrive, the relief commissioners like, Ohh, we're actually eating right now and we can't bother people while they're having their lunch, so you're going to have to wait until people finish eating. So the crowd who does not provide it with food, of course it's around starving after their long walk while these commissioners eat. And then when the Commissioners finish eating, they're able to meet with them. And the Commissioners are saying, oh, I'm so sorry, but you don't qualify for relief. Actually, we don't have any food for you. There's nothing here. I am so sorry if you realise you're British is pretty, uh, pretty spot on right now and I think I think really in the moment. Maybe it's just because I'm so furious that these people, while wiping flavorless, flavorless gravy, seasoned, seasoned mutton off your jaw, being like, oh, you have nothing for you. My God, get some salt. So these folks have their guards drive this horde of starving people away and force them to March miles back in the frigid rain. We're a bunch of them die. The bodies of at least seven people are found by the site of Dulo Lake, having starved on the way back. Other people are swept into the lake by a mud side and slide and drown. She and this is this whole situation is like ****** ** and Charlie, dare I say Terry Gilliam enough. This is really some like, Brazil ****. Yeah. Yeah. That it it it becomes pretty significant news internationally. And it gets back to the United States and some of the people who read about what happens at Duo Lake are Choctaw people, indigenous. Americans now, eight years earlier, the Choctaw had been forced on a death March from Mississippi to Oklahoma by the United States government. And so eight years, not a long time, still dealing very much with the effects of this ******* death March. The Choctaw hear about what has happened to these Irish people, and despite being desperately impoverished, they take up a collection and gather $700.00 worth of money, which is a lot at the time, and send it to Ireland for relief. Wow. Yeah. And that is still very much remembered by the Irish people today. There's a a monument to the Choctaw that's I'm not sure in Ireland as. Yeah, like there are people who give more, but there's no one who gives more and has less than the child. Yeah, exactly. You know that this is something that that has never been forgotten to this day. No. Speaking of that, Speaking of that unread Bible, like yet another yet another story Jesus talked about, we've, we've talked about how there's a lot of solidarity in Ireland. Yeah, listenin cause because they recognize and there's the same thing that shocked. They're looking at this and being like, oh, **** no, I get that we know what that's like. Yeah. Yes. Suffering, like I'd be type like suffering, like nice people. It's like a type of empathy, you know? I'm saying where you just like, why? I have the capacity to understand and and to have a heartbreaking for the people of Ukraine. And the people of Yemen, and you know, I'm saying the people of the Tigrai region in Ethiopia, you know, I'm saying like, I've capacity for all that because I've suffered the fact that you trying to make a choice between which one of these things I need to care about is so indicative of exactly what these these people did in this incident. It is my job to judge whether you worthy of my mercy. It's I think when when I have had conversations with Irish people about the great. Younger. Yeah. This is the story that probably gets brought up more than any other. Yeah. Is is that the Choctaw donation? I think, just incredible. Such an emotionally affecting story. Yeah. So throughout all of this, trevallion and the other public officials and politicians are adamant that landlords cannot be forced to keep tenants on their land, nor could they forcibly reduce rent. Right. That's a violation of the landlord's, right. If you put any kind of rent control in, we can't do that. But the scale of suffering was Titanic enough by the late 1840s that the Great and good felt a need to donate. Sir Charles Wood, Trevallion's boss, donated 200 pounds sterling to famine relief. Queen Victoria gives 2000 pounds. That's very nice. That's gotta be a significant chunk of her. She probably doesn't have much more than £2000, right? Yeah, the Queen, Queen Victoria, that's all she could afford. The Pope gives 1000. The Pope, you know, in Rome gives 1000 pounds in in aid. You want to guess how much Chucky trevallion gifts? 25. It's a proper peace, bro. I'm gonna give him peas in it. You ******* do you get pee? You mean you just did? That's literally that is an amount to just be able to say I donated, right? Yeah. So you could put it on. **** yourself. You just all day and twice on Sunday. Telling me the oldest you I didn't know this play was this old for rich people to just donate to a charity. I didn't know that that play was that play. It's has stood the test of time, Maggie. So rather than understanding that you are the problem and you could easily solve it, I just donate to A cause like I I am impressed that rich people have figured out how to do this. Trevallion is the one that's easiest to make fun of here. I think the queen and the Catholic Church. To actually get more **** and I'm going to read a quote here from Tim Pat Coogan about why we're going to start with the Pope. The people of Rome contributed generously to Irish relief, as did a few Cardinals, but no masterpieces from the Vatican's art collection were removed for sale to help supplement the appeal. And it is likely that the amount of money that was collected came mainly not as a result of the Pope's letter, but from the generosity of the Irish Catholic diaspora, particularly from America. In fact, at the height of the famine, it was the Irish who sent money to the Pope. In 1849 the Pope was on the run because Republican forces had temporarily driven him from the Vatican. The Irish bishops were ordered to take up a collection collection to help defray papal expenses to judge from a letter to the Arch Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Murray. This appeal much of must have realized much more than the Pope's gift of £1000 so. The Irish Welsh, starving donate more money to the Pope anyway, once and again, this is, this is not to say one of the most effective forces for relief is the Catholic churches in Ireland. Right, which are supported financially by the Irish people, not by the church in Rome. Right. Not to. Yeah, yeah. Not to cut them out of this because there's a lot of of Catholic clergy who do a ton during this. Just not the ******* Pope, you know? Just not him, you know? One of the more interesting donors is Sultan Abdul Masid of Turkey, right. He's the the Ottoman leader. Yeah. He he wants to give. He's very moved by the suffering of the Irish people. He wants to donate £10,000, right. That is a ton of money back in the day. That's a lot of money. But when he says he goes to the British ambassador, he's like, I've got, I'm going to give, I want to give £10,000 to, to relief to try to help these people. And the British ambassador says, well, you know, that's a very nice gift, Sir, but you see the Queens given 2000. Towns and you can't you can't exceed her gift. You know, that would be quite improper. You don't want people thinking about that. Our cloud. ******* Queen Victoria. Yeah. Ohh my gosh. Now, OK. It it is worth noting to the sultans. Credit when he's like, all right, well, I can't donate as much cash as I want to. He fills 5 boats with grain and he sends them to Ireland at his own expense to feed the starving Turkish soldiers. It said have to unload the grain in secret at night in order to avoid embarrassing the royal family. Oh my God, they that petty. That family been yeah, petty for that long. OK. And yeah, the Turkish. So it's like if you talk, you were already an empire. So you. I mean, it's not like you don't empathize. It's not like the Sultan's not like, out, you know, he's not hurting. Yeah, I was like, he's a Sultan. Yes, he's fine. But at least that's not nothing, you know, that's a meaningful, that's a meaningful attempt to relieve suffering. His little piece of, like, understanding of like, yeah, well, of course I don't want to upstage the queen. I mean, I mean, I'm assaulted. I wouldn't want to be upstaged. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna slide this in there because y'all tripping, but I get it. You know, it's just like slide this in there under the. Yeah. And I I just wonder if you were a Turkish soldier. We if you're just like, man, what we got high. All right. All right, I guess. OK. You know, yeah. There's a lion in Tim Pat Coogan's book that I found interesting. I can't vouch for it because I'm not Irish, but he points out that, like, obviously, you know, in World War One, Irish soldiers are a major part of the effort at the Battle of Gallipoli, which is this. A **** load because the British empires forces get their ***** handed to them by the Turks again. I mean, it's not to say that it's an easy, it's a nightmare. It's one of the worst battles there's been in the history of warfare. And Tim pass. Gallipoli, right, Gallipoli. Kugan makes a point that, like at the Today, there's no more ill will from the Irish towards the Turks for the casualties of the Battle of Gallipoli. But there are still monuments to the Turkish soldiers who came and like handed out. Wow. And delivered food. Yeah, you. Really do. I mean, you really do with friends right now? Yeah, yeah. You remember who's gracious to you? Yeah. So Charles Trevallion issued copies of Adam Smith's books to his employees, carrying out relief operations in Ireland. He told them that they should be used as guides in handling how to feed the starving. Now, this does not mean that Trevallion did nothing that was capable. In fact, he helped to organize a network of soup kitchens from late 1845 to 1847, which were a fairly effective. Relief effort and helped stop several significant number of people from dying. That said, it's not like the soup kitchens were his idea. You know, he was just like the guy who who wound up helping to organize them, and he was one of the people. A lot of folks did see them as dangerous, as bad for the Irish spirit because it would encourage indolence. Travelion typified the feelings of many English civil servants when he said the judgment of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson that calamity must not be too much, mitigated the real evil. With which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people. So it's like it's just God sent the famine to Ireland to teach the Irish something, and so we can't help them too much. We can't save too many lives because that would **** God off. **** God off God and Adam Smith, who are basically the same to Chucky. Truth, Chucky T clearly, you know, clearly you're just like we. It's already happening to us. And we all already know you the cause of it. Let that be enough. Yeah. But for you to have to keep giving these speeches like this, somehow my fault is I'm just like, that's where I'm just like, now you're now you're ******* on my grave. OK, like, if you could at least just yeah, it to me, like that's the salt in the world that you keep that y'all keep saying that this is God's will, because this is our fault. Like that's. When you when when it's just when you just ready to throw a chair. It's like I I feel like it's that feeling. Well it's it's not as bad but it's that feeling when somebody when a politician get on the especially like a like a like a white boy get on the stage and be like well if Martin Luther King was alive today he would say I'm like I'm a throw a chair at you. Yeah. Uh, I'm gonna throw it like, that's like, I just wanna throw a chair like there's 1000 Cheetah Doctor King's name, oucho ******* mouth. I mean, yeah, there's that's for one thing, like the guy said a lot, like you don't have to put words in his mouth and his and we is is recording spoke on a bunch of stuff, actually spoke on a lock on a lot of things that are relevant to this story. Yes, I'm pretty sure this happened. It didn't destroy we talked about right now. Yeah. Yeah. He had a number of opinions on free market economics, actually. I'll tell you what, you don't have to invent things anyway. You do if you want them to sound like he agrees with something else because there you go. You know, there's Martin Luther King and then there's Martin Luther King. You know, there's there's media Martin Luther King that is easy for anybody to turn into a guy on their side while they're giving a speech about whatever. I marched with King. My buddy yeah, so potatoes. The famine plot goes into greater detail about how Trevallion personally intervened to exacerbate the famine in the name of his precious free market principles. Quote one of his first actions on Peel's departure in June 1846. Because peel, you know Russell takes over for peel, right? He eventually leaves. Being Prime Minister symbolizes the attitude he was to adopt throughout the famine. He cancelled a shipment of grain on its way to Ireland. He wrote to Thomas bearing on July 8th, 1846, who's the head of the bank? The cargo of food is not wanted. Her owners must dispose of it as they think. Proper bearing replied, congratulating him on the termination of your feeding operations. When the complexity and the time-consuming nature of the corn processing was brought to his attention, Trevallion made two decisive interventions. First, he wrote to the bear to bear to the bearings, temporarily cutting back on the corn supply by 50% and asking that henceforth, whenever possible, Indian cornmeal should be sent rather than unprocessed grain. Second, he decreed that there was no need for the Indian corn to be ground twice. In a letter to Ruth he summed up his attitude towards relief. It was that of the workhouse. We must not aim at giving more than wholesome food. I cannot believe it would be necessary to grind the Indian corn twice. Dependence on charity is not to be made in agreeable mode of life. In Ireland in early 1846 there was very little danger that the poorest classes would find dependence on peels yellow meal agreeable. The milling deficiencies and the fact that through hunger many of the recipients did not give it sufficient cooking time made for severe and widespread bowel complaints, particularly among children. Hence, the meal quickly became known as Peel's Brimstone. Why would they need it milled twice? Well, if I have to mill it, let's send half as much. You know, we don't want them to get lazy because we're doing all of this work to prepare the cornmeal for them. Yeah, there's that. I was like, there's that thing again. Yeah. We can't help you. Because if we help you, then that means you'll never do anything for yourself. Yeah. Now you know who. Isn't lazy. Yeah, I know. It's not lazy. Yeah. Yeah. These amazing. Absolutely. Now they know how to work for themselves. You know, these these products and services, they they really, they're not lazy. Tell you they're not indolent. I tell you what, they're more Keynesian. They don't need to grind their corn more than once. 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Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. You get paid to talk about the things you love with spreaker. From iheart. And we're back. Oh, boy. Howdy. So the famine brought through a series of changes in what we're known as Ireland's poor laws, and for this I'm going to quote from a write up by Virginia Kursman of Oxford Brookes University. Prior to the Great Famine, Relief was only available within the workhouse under the pressure of mass starvation, and with many workhouses full to overflowing, the system was extended in 1847 to allow poor law boards to grant outdoor relief to the sick and disabled and to widows with two and to widows with two or more legitimate children. Outdoor relief could only be granted. The able bodied if the workhouse was full or a site of infection. Anyone occupying more than 1/4 of an acre of land, however, was excluded from receiving relief. The effect of this provision, when combined with falling rent rolls and the liability of landlords to pay the poor rates on holdings worth less than £4.00 per annum, was to encourage landlords to evict their smallest tenants. Workhouse occupancy rose from around 417,000 and 1847 to around 932,000 by the end of 1849. So one of the things they do. Is they make it advantageous financially to evict people. Umm, yeah. For the landlords because it makes for a better tax situation because you don't have to pay as much and you got to pay for it. Yeah. Yeah. It's and the idea of like if you own, what was it 1/4 live on 1/4 acre. If you live, not even. Oh yeah, that's. I was like, wait, not even. Oh, you gotta live on it. So if you got, if you got a little. Well, I don't know, man. You got a little quarter. Yeah. You you cool? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess I could if I had that little quarter of an acre, I guess. Could plant some food. Yeah, theoretically, right. Theoretically. 1/4 acre, by the way, not a ton of space to grow enough food, both to pay your rent and keep a family. Yeah, of course. Of course the food I would I would grow to eat, I have to pay. And also it doesn't grow right now a lot of the food that I would eat. So yeah, again, but I'll be people are really edged out of many options here, yes. So the poor laws effectively put the burden to caring for starving Irish masses on Irish land owners and business owners. One thing this did was make it clear to the that the United Kingdom that Ireland had been made to join in 1800 that like that this this idea of the UK doesn't exist. For the Irish right, because none of the funding for this is coming from outside of Ireland. Ireland, like, they stopped that immediately. Men like Trevallion didn't see this as England abandoning Ireland. They saw this as England crafting laws to change the Irish into something else that would make them better people, right? That's the reasoning behind all this. There's a lot of intent in the terrible things they're doing. These aren't just like random bad laws. They want to. But fundamentally alter and and get rid of a lot of Irish people in order to make them better, you know, it's that. Yeah, sounds like that. Like kill the Indian save the man thing. In a letter he wrote to Edward Twisleton, the chief Poor Law Commissioner of Ireland, Travelion said we must not complain of what we really want to obtain. If small farmers go in, their landlords are reduced to sell portions of their estates to persons who will invest capital. We shall at last arrive at something like a satisfactory settlement of the country. Yeah, it this is again, that he's he's just always, they just die off. Yeah, it's an ethnic cleansing for economic purposes. That's what he's discussing. Yeah, with a very convenient. Yeah, a convenient. Fungus? Yeah, yeah, it is fungus. Convenient, you know, I'm saying helps out now. The famine also provided an opportunity for the Crown and its servants to rid Ireland of some of its pesky and rebellious young men. Crime, which during the famine often meant simply stealing food, was punished, often by transportation. This was the forced expulsion of a criminal to somewhere like Australia. John Mitchell, leader of a nationalist group named Young Ireland, was transported in 1848 to Australia. He later called the Famine quote an artificial. Salmon potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe, yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty indeed sent the potato blight but the English created the famine. Signed, sealed, delivered. Yeah, nailed it. Time has proven his words very correct. The potato again did fail for years, but only in Ireland was their famine and death on an industrial scale. Huge numbers of Irish people fled their homeland in this. Many of whom wound up in the United States. Right. This is when we really get our big waves of Irish immigration. This is pretty well known to most. American. So I prefer to focus on the fact that a ton of Irish folks also go to England. Right. It is, you know, a bit closer. A lot closer. Yeah. 10s of thousands of famine victims flee to the seat of the imperial government, hoping for a chance to survive. This, of course, does not make English people very happy. In 1850, the Liverpool Mercury wrote that the lamentable excess of crime in that city has been caused entirely by Irish refugees. This constant influx of Irish misery and crime is almost impossible to restrain. And of course, there are. Huge surges in the number of people arrested and charged with crimes, most of whom are Irish. Because guess who the cops are focused on, man. Listen, I'll look it. Listen, I'm. I'm making a retroactive plea to the Irish. Like, man, when when whiteness comes knocking like you don't don't don't answer that call, man. Come chill with us. You see how they're doing? You just be with us, cuz. Yeah, I mean, there's an unfortunate story of, like, how a lot of these famine victims come to the United States. Many wind up becoming police, and it's a whole tale. Yeah, it's a whole tale. It's a whole thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was just like, man, listen, why did y'all doing this? Like, you know what they do to you, they did. They did. They doing to you, they doing us what they did to you. Why? Like, come on, guys. Nope. It's a it's a. It's it's not a. We're reading through here. Isn't the playbook because it doesn't work exactly. It's play works pretty good. It works pretty well, just like you want to be. It's like at the end of the day, man, like you want to be the hunter or the hunter and if you have a chance to become the hunter. 10 out of 10 times you just do that it's rather than rather than that being 8 Umm and it just and it's like it just sucks but it is what it is. It is what it is. So it's also worth emphasizing that many, many foreigners did travel to Ireland during her time of need to try and help Quakers and reticular probably like the the group that came in and did the most good like huge amount of lives saved by Quakers who operated soup kitchens and engaged in other very compassionate aid work like really incredible ****. And in fact. When you go through like, English newspapers in this. That are like people who are publishing columns and letters of anti Irish bigotry, you will also find Quakers writing and to be like, shut the **** ** you know? But basically they're quickly you talk about because, yeah, they're not. They're, they're a little nicer about friends. Yeah. Yeah. Many Americans also traveled to the island to help one American philanthropist at the time wrote of Irish famine victims. I could scarcely believe that these creatures were my fellow beings. Never have I seen slaves so degraded. And here I learned that there are many pages in the volume of slavery. And that every branch of it proceeds from one in the same route, though it assumes different shapes. These poor creatures are in as virtual ******* to their landlords and superiors as it is possible for mind or body to be. They cannot work unless they bid them, they cannot eat unless they feed them, and they cannot get away unless they help them. Wow. Yeah. No, that's a quote. That is a quote. Yep, Yep. Yeah. There's a lot of truth, man. There are many pages in the volume of slavery and that every branch of proceeds from one in the same route is the same route home. Yes. So no sympathy at all was to be found in the heart of the Regent Queen Victoria, who came to be known as the Famine Queen for her government's utter failure. And this is something that happens, really, after the famine. But there's still a push in Ireland out to call her the Famine king. Famine queen? Yeah. Historian Christine Keene Kinnally, director of the Great Hunger Institute, sums it up thusly. There is no evidence that she had any real compassion for the Irish people in any way when she visited Ireland for the first time in 1849. Where the end of the famine, huge numbers of soldiers were needed to keep the streets clear and ensure that she saw no real sign of the suffering her agents had permitted. We could go on and on about different policies, how they failed or succeeded, which other individuals played roles in the famine. Eventually it ended, but only after tremendous suffering. At least 1,000,000 people starved to death. Modern scholars suspect the real number was closer to two million 1.9 million, something like that. Millions more left the island, either due to forced transportation or immigration. The hope of a better life or just survival from a pre famine population of almost 9,000,000. Ireland's population post famine was less than 5,000,000 and it did not exceed 5,000,000 again until last year. So so for a an idea of the scale of how this famine compares to modern famines. The famine in Yemen right now is probably the number one humanitarian crisis on the globe at the moment. I just did it. At least 100,000 people have already starved to death. Experts warn that 400. Thousands of children under the age of five could die in the near future without sufficient intervention. It is a Titanic problem that is 100,000 dead so far out of a population of 30 million. The the famine in Darfur was probably the most prominent 21st century famine before Yemen. It killed around 100,000 people out of a population of 27 million. Now both of these are Titanic tragedies and I'm trying to minimize that in any way but 2,000,000 dead out of nine million for an example of like this. Gale yeah. Of this. Yeah. Like it's a that's yeah. Yeah. And just and like, adding the, like role that weather plays that like, yeah, it's it's just it was a, it's a perfect storm. You know, when in the history of time and, you know, understanding of how viruses and bacteria work, like when this happened, it's the perfect storm of being like, yeah, it's going to wipe you all out. Yeah. Yep. And and there's a lot of people who have a vested interest in allowing you to be wiped out. Yep. Anyway, because we're going to graze this. We're gonna graze this land with these, these hipster. I wanna get some sheep, you know? I'm going to get some sheep. So **** Charles Trevallion, that's that's all day everyday. Yeah, definitely don't like that. I found an article that interviews his great, great, great granddaughter who was a BBC reporter, Laura Trevallion. And she, she got, she got sent for an idea of like maybe how out of touch the BBC can be. They have Charles Trevallion's great great great granddaughter and in the mid 90s when like ***** going off in Northern Ireland they send her as a correspondent. Oh my God, let's go, let's go. He says, quote I was interviewing a member of the Republican Sinn Fein in southern Armagh and she asked if I was related to Charles Trevallion. I said I was and she asked me how I could live in Ireland when I had the blood of the Irish on my hands. She wasn't joking. I was constantly surprised by the number of people who knew about Charles Trevallion and the impact that the famine has in Ireland more than 150 years later. Yet I felt ashamed that I didn't know all that much about him and she wrote writes a book because of this called a very British family, about the Trevallion family. Yes, I like her just being cute, like, like, hey, are you related to trevallion? Yeah, that's like my great, great granddad. You know him? You're like. That's a chair throw. That's another chair. Yeah, they like. I'm happy that Lady didn't throw the chair at her. Again, real, real, real restraint on behalf of the Irish Republicans there. There it is. I mean, I know that can be a spicy crowd. I'm surprised. So she writes this ******* book and she says of it, I'm not defending him or endorsing some of his actions, but I want to show he was more humane than has been portrayed. He did work very hard to try and improve the situation in Ireland and had a genuine concern for the welfare of the people. It's alright. Like, OK. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Look, listen, there's your grant, your granddaddy, a ***** ** ****. OK, so it's just we come on, we have a there's some ******* incredible quotes from this lady. He is vilified in Ireland, and not wrongly, because the policy enacted by the government at the time is impossible to defend. A policy of effectively withholding relief and allowing market forces to take their courses. Brutal. However, what I'm taking, what I'm taking issue with is the portrayal of him as someone who wanted the Irish to die. Yes, he was a providential list who felt the famine had been the will of God, but that's not the same as saying he wanted the Irish to die. OK is, man, it's sort of this a little bit that kinda is this. You're being like, God wants these people to die, but **** him. I'm gonna fight him, you know? But like, that's not what Chauster Valliant was saying. No, no, I I I don't know, ma'am. I listen. I don't know, ma'am. I'm just listen. Your granddaddy piece. ****. I think your granddad might just don't have to live with it. Yeah, you know, I'm saying just live with it. They don't mean you a piece. ****. They don't mean that. OK? They are. Listen, we all. You can't go higher. You can't go in and nobody's family tree and not find a piece. Yeah, absolutely. It's just they're in all of our families. Like, what do you want me to say? He was a ***** ** ****. There's a lot of blood on his hands. Yeah, you probably can't go into anyone's background and not find somebody who helped do a genocide at some point. There's been a lot of. Everybody's that. We've done a lot of them as a species. A lot of time. You related, yes, you related in that line, you've got somebody like and it's fine because people aren't responsible for their ancestors. Just don't write. What do you get about how? Are you what you now what makes you responsible? Yeah. Is you trying to justify it rather than being like the rest of us? Which is like, no. Yeah, yeah, it's ****** **. Yeah, I feel wacked up. Yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah. It's cool. It's good stuff. Alright, no book of Bucky. Thought God wanted them dead, but that doesn't mean he didn't like them. You know, don't say I just figure I won't feed them because this principle. Yeah, but I don't mean I want him to die. Yeah, it's a shame they're dying. I wish I could do something about it as the guy responsible for the relief efforts. I mean, we're all trying to find the guy who did this as Charles Trevallion in a banana costume. Well, the potato costume. Let's let's go to potato costume for this dog. This is glorious, man. Just man. I don't write a book about your grant. That's the end of the story. Don't you don't write joke about this book about him. I I'm sure there's a there's a valid case for like, well, we have this family archives and I'm gonna write a book revealing like what made him the kind of man who would do this and, like take a hard note. Do that. That's fine. There's some there's some, like, descendants of Nazis who have written some very good things about. Grappling with the fact that, like, yeah, my grandpa did some **** you know? Yeah, there's that. That's a really valuable thing to do, actually, because, yeah, it's a species, even just like we could stand it better at that. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm like, again, like we said, people are two opposite things can be true at the same time. Surely you'll surely your murderous grandfather was a very cuddly person who could read you a bedtime story. Yeah. You know, I'm saying who really loved, you know, nice strolls, you know, and got your grandma daisies every Sunday. Yes. And also is a bloodthirsty murderer. Yeah, they're they're both true. So even if you gonna defend your granddaddy, like, hey you know, he was really nice to my mom then late just talk about that part. This is don't try to like the ***** ** **** stuff is just ***** ** **** stuff. So just let it be what it is. People like things to be clear cut. And I I think there's not enough of an understanding that probably most of the people who have personally participated in genocide throughout history. Have been perfectly pleasant human beings outside of that moment, absent. Probably most of the people who owned slaves were lovely to their wife and children. They were just fine at ignoring the humanity of certain other people, you know, like, that's what I'm saying. You could be two things. Well, you know. Well, my, like, well, not big Daddy. Big daddy. You know what I do declare? I go hang out at Big Daddy's house and we'd sit on the porch and we drink our lemonade and he would play tea with us. The whole big daddy was so loved. Yeah. Yes. Big Daddy was very loving. To you? Yep. It's awesome. That was my southern belle. Mm-hmm. How'd I do? It was good. It was good. As your British was fine. I mean, who? My could tillion we really? I can't deal with this. I've got the vapors. Oh, gosh. I would like some alabaster columns. Plantation, you know? Yeah. I don't have a good. I don't have a good southern belle ready. I apologize. No, I apologize. I like. I like pulling alabaster out. I do. It's one of my favorite words. You really sound white when you say alabaster. There's no other reason to say it unless, again, you're the strongest one reading a gospel in your but besides that, why would you ever say Alabama? Fun stuff. Well, that's the story of the great hunger, great hunger, the potato plight, the unnecessary family. Yeah, the the British famine. The British Famine would be so dope if in like, Ireland, their books were called the unnecessary famine. Yeah, the unnecessary family. I mean, the famine plot is a good one. Coogan frames it very much. Is like, yeah, it was like mother people meant for this **** to go down. Yeah, famine plot. Y'all did this, which is cool. It's not cool, but it's good to talk about things accurately. Prop. You wanna plug anything before we roll out in a hail of I do a podcast I I do I. I wrote a book called after the Revolution. You can Google AV. No, what if I did? What if I what if I did write it and I just accidentally just told on us that, like, right now I just stole your book. Yeah. I was like, wait, that was like, yeah, Robert, I waited till this whole time to tell you I want my book. Prop hip hop did write a book, though. You did write a book. It's called terraform. It's poetry and short story. And I I. And I haven't won any awards for it. That's OK you know who else didn't win any awards? Well, you know who won? Actually, a lot of awards is Charles Trevallion. He got like knighted and ****. He won a bunch. So then why would I want any of that? Yeah, maybe. Maybe awards aren't really worth anything. Maybe they're not worth yeah. All right, well that's the podcast. Alright dude, go out and again, find a property of the British royal family and damage it. Yeah, yeah. And find yourself. Yeah, find yourself a somebody in the military and uninvite them into your home. Yeah, yeah. Invite a soldier into your house and be like, you know, what the **** out. You don't get to be in my house. 3rd amendment ************. Bye. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Speaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break our handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's SPREAKE. Or.com. If you could completely remove one phrase from your vocabulary, which phrase would you choose? I don't know. Correct answer. No, I meant I don't know which phrase, and the best way to banish I don't know from your life is by cramming your brain full of stuff you should know. 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