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Hey, Robert here. It's been like two months since I had LASIK and I'm still seeing 2020. All I had to do was go in for a consultation, then go in for a maybe 10 minute procedure and then my eyes have been great ever since. You know, I healed up wonderfully. It was very simple, couldn't have been a better experience. So if you want to explore LASIK plus I can't recommend it enough. They have over 20 years experience in the industry and they performed more than two million treatments right now if you want to try getting LASIK plus you can get $1000 off of your surgery when you're treated in September, that's $500. Of per eye, just visitmylasikoffer.com to schedule your free consultation. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried true crime. And if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's breaker handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey guys, I'm Kaylee short on my podcast. Too much to say. I share my thoughts on everything from music to martinis, social media, social anxiety, regrets to risky text, and so much more. I have been known to read my literal diary entries on my show, and sometimes I do interviews with my crazy group of friends. So if you guys want to tune in, you can hear new episodes of too much to say every Wednesday on the national podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to him. Yeah, yeah. We are is that is it started? Did I do it so good? Have we, have we, have we opened the podcast yet? I mean, Chris. Yeah, I I you did it. We're here. Robert Evans, Champion podcast opener, winner of the Nobel Prize for starting his own podcast with atonal grunting. This is a podcast about bad people, the worst in all of history. And today we have a real, real doozy of a *** ** * ***** to talk about and to talk about this, this just exquisite ******* is Courtney Kosak. Courtney, you are one of the hosts of private parts unknown, and you have a an essay collection coming out soon. Is that correct? Well, I'm hoping to sell it, yes. Yeah, it's been written. So that is the first step. Totally, yeah. It's about a. Hawking T-shirts on the ***** **** **** tour. So that sounds that sounds like a life experience. Yeah, 21 boy ohh boy. Yeah. I'm just gonna guess a lot of keystone light involved in that tour. Good guess, yeah. I too went to College in the early aughts. Courtney, how do you feel about obstetricians? Pretty good pretty good pretty good. Helpful people can be helpful people can be, can be helpful people ohh keyword on this podcast keyword ohhh yeah how do you feel about like vaginas it just as a just as like a like a like in terms of the way they're they're structured. I did previously tell court that I picked her for this episode specifically. I'm honoured already. Ohh yeah, just wait. Yeah, yeah, court, how do you feel about vagina? Like, structurally, structurally, I don't have a problem with vaginas. I feel like society maybe does. But society has some issues with them. I think they're they're they seem they seem fine. But what if I were to tell you the decades ago some random dude with a medical degree decided he'd figured out a better way to design vaginas? And then what if I were to tell you that he decided to test his theories by surgically altering the vaginas of thousands of women without asking for their consent? Ohh no, it's a bad one. Yeah, that is the story we're gonna tell today. It is the tale of Doctor James Burt who sucked and unless he's died by the time this episode runs, still sucks. I think he's alive in Florida still, which makes sense as to where this guy would be. Umm, he's really he hits the he hits the the die effecta of of ****** American places because he was he. He he did all of his crimes in Ohio and then he fled to Florida. When they got caught, so it's a real perfect story. Oh my God. Is he still down in Florida redesigning vaginas? He is. No, no, no. He is not allowed to do anything vaguely medical ever again. God. Well, but he yeah, I mean, that's broadly positive. He didn't get the punishment that I think would have been fair, but he's he's he's maybe still alive. It's kind of hard to tell. He's he's kept a low profile since getting caught. Well, getting caught is the wrong word because he wrote a book about what he was doing and had no shame in it. And it it's it's a it's a tale. It's a tale. Are you ready to hear the story of Jane? Doctor? Sorry. James Burke. No. Yeah. Be respectful. Yeah. I can't wait. The man earned his MD, you know. OK, so James Caird Burt Junior was born on August 29th, 1921, in Dayton, OH. Which is already one strike against him, right? You know he's coming, coming out the bat, committing a crime. The crime of being from Ohio now. I yeah. Anyway, James was one of two children born to Benjamin and Stella. His dad worked in a manufacturing company as a Superintendent, and his mom was a homemaker. We have vanishingly little detail on his childhood. We can make some assumptions based on when and where he grew up. He was likely raised in an environment of casual, pervasive misogyny and male supremacy. Sex probably was not discussed openly by his parents or in school. The first sex Ed in a major American city was implemented in Chicago in 1913, about eight years before James was born, and the program was so controversial that it was shuttered almost immediately as a result of outcry from the Catholic Church. They they launched a massive protest campaign forced the Chicago. Superintendent of Schools Ella Young. To resign. I was gonna say Midwest. I was like, that seems like a yeah, very not happening. I mean, it's simultaneously like, yeah, it makes sense that it would get shut down, but also, like, good on you should they try it, right? Like they tried before LA or anywhere. You know, they gave it a shot, didn't work. But you gotta give them. You gotta give Ella Young points for trying. At least not the Catholic Church. Don't give the Catholic Church points for a lot. No. I know we both thought of things to say, but sometimes it's best. Not to make those Catholic Church jokes. Throwing ***** **** around everywhere? Hmm. That did get them in a lot of trouble eventually, but not enough at the same time. What we're saying is Sinead O'Connor was right. So yeah, the federal government would not take any kind of stance on the matter of, like, whether or not sex Ed was a good idea until 1918. And what forced their hand was the sheer, devastating frequency of STD's among American soldiers during World War One. Like the government. Like, we don't we don't want any part in this. And then our military readiness was compromised by *******. Suddenly an issue that had to be dealt with just like, Oh my God, we're losing a lot of men from venereal disease. Dudes are itching themselves off the battlefield. This is horrible. Yeah, they are leaping off of battleships and into the ocean to quiet the crabs. We should probably say something. The Chamberlain Con Act was America's first federal law regarding sex education, and it was passed to provide funding to teach soldiers about syphilis and gonorrhea. This had the positive impact of spurring large numbers of Americans to view sex as a public health issue, which is, broadly speaking, an improvement from where things were. It also inspired school districts around the nation to copy the military and hosting sex Ed programs in secondary schools. And this was a thoroughly mixed bag. Because they weren't teaching how to have healthy sex. They were teaching about how sex can function in a relationship. They weren't like, it was just purely trying to scare kids about VD, you know? Like that was the whole all of sex Ed was just trying to frighten children about the fact that their their genitals were going to rot off if they had sex. Was everyone still on the abstinence only? Like was that happening in this era? I think that attitude was so pervasive that they didn't have an abstinence only movement. It was just assumed that like, yeah, it's bad to ****. Before marriage, and obviously all of the men are, but like, I don't even think there was a movement because it was so such a pervasive, like, accepted thing. Yeah, throughout the 1920s, when James Burt was a little kid, sex Ed grew increasingly common. When he was in school, he probably watched a film called the Gift of Life from the Terrifyingly named American Social Hygiene Association, which is that's a nightmare organization name right there. The movie warned children about the quote solitary vice which was ************ and cautioned ************ may seriously hinder a boy's progress towards vigorous manhood. It is a selfish childish stupid habit. Interesting word choice with the vigorous love that yeah, vigorous also don't you think ************ that would help prevent DVD? I don't. You know we talk about this and the the Kellogg episodes which are airing the week we record this, but like. There was a widespread belief that it would kill you, that, like it would drive you insane and you would die. Not totally wrong, but I mean, depends on how you do it I guess. But yeah, you'll also notice that they specifically say, like, ************ is the thing that boys do that is bad for them. This is because even discussing even even too light, even discussing female sexuality in order to, like, discourage ************ was kind of too risque, you know? Like acknowledging that it happened would be a bridge too far for these people now, thanks to an English teacher named Lucy Curtis. A number of secondary school teachers in the 20s and 30s also attempted to teach sex Ed through English literature, which allowed them to avoid talking directly about biology. Instead, they would draw comparisons to health lessons, sex health lessons from passages and classical works, Miss Curtis advised teachers. Quote read to them Lancelot's wild, passionate quest for the Holy Grail and they will enter into the bitter experience of a soul which has rendered itself incapable of receiving the full spiritual blessing through the sin of yielding to impure desire. It's like you'll get a teacher about *******. Have him read King Arthur's tales. They'll understand that the Holy Grail is sex. Totally. Yeah, that'll work. That's why the Crucible stopped our generation from *******. Yeah. So in the 1930s, when James Burke was a teenager and had his adolescence, sex Ed grew increasingly formal. the US Department of Education started publishing materials to train teachers during this. Most of these early classes focused entirely on warning children against ************ and scaring them with exaggerated stories of the dangers of STD's. Female ************ was seldom discussed. Even teaching about the negatives of sex could be dangerous in 1933, when Mexico's socialist government proposed compulsory sex Ed. The public schools. Mexico City erupted into riots. So there were riots in a few countries about the concept of teaching sex Ed that wasn't just don't. Ohh ****. Yeah, people, people murdered each other over this stuff. Good ****. And of course, Mexico City, the Catholic Church was behind that one, too. Oh yeah, yeah. Now, the most influential progressive voice on sex Ed during James's teen years would have been Margaret Sanger, who is a very problematic figure on her own, was a big eugenicist. But Sanger also made huge waves for arguing that sex for the sake of pleasure was acceptable, and she did this by urging people to use birth control, right? She had other motives for it, but the mere fact that you're saying birth control is the option and not abstinence, means that you're acknowledging people can have sex and it's it's OK, you know? So that was a big deal for a lot of folks. It was the sign of kind of a shifting in the winds. Now, again, there were major eugenicist implications for a lot of her beliefs, but the positive angle of it is that she was increasingly pushing forward a conversation that said it's OK if married. Men and women have sex for fun, you know, which is something. In 1936, Sanger helped push forward a Supreme Court case that overturned the Comstock law, which had ruled both birth control devices and information about birth control obscene and thus illegal. So, like, talking about birth control was illegal because it was. It was *********** basically. Oh my God, that's so ****** **. That's like the Instagram advertising policy of president present day. Yeah, yeah, the Comstock law was that for everything. And Sanger helps overturn it. The Supreme Court is like, ohh, you know, it turns out the 1st amendment means you can talk about condoms. Which is fun. I mean, it's a good law to overturn. Cause it sucked. By the time James Burt was 17 or 18, he would have been able to finally receive sex Ed information that wasn't entirely focused around syphilis or the evils of whacking it. James graduated in 1939 and went to Auburn University, where he met his future wife, Lucretia Perry. He received his undergraduate degree after a transfer from Alabama Polytechnic Institute in 1942. He next attended medical school and he married Lucretia. In the early 1940s, before graduating with his medical degree in 1945, I haven't found good information on what precisely inspired James to get into medicine. But based on his later actions, we can safely assume that he found himself gravitating most to the subject of reproductive and sexual health. We know he paid close attention to developing sex research of the day. He would have followed the developing work of a sex science pioneer named Alfred Kinsey. Kinsey was a former biologist who had gone from studying Wasps to studying human sex after he started teaching a course. And marriage for Indiana University and realized that there was basically zero good research documenting the sex lives of normal humans. And Kinsey's a controversial figure, too. There's some good criticisms of the guy, but his research is like, I love that. That gets you a little bit harder, Robert. You're like, yeah, there's some, there's some stuff about that guy, too. There's there we might talk about. There's some, like, weird, weird **** with Kinsey, like genital torture stuff. That what? Yeah, there's some weird **** with Kinsey. I'm not gonna, I'm not competent at the moment to talk about it. But like Kinsey, there's there's some very, there's some very founded critiques of him. You also, if you're studying like sex health, you have to talk about Kinsey cause he was the first first person pushing this research. And I'm gonna quote from an honors thesis by Lauren Lavin for the University of South Dakota here. In 1948, soon after beginning the Institute for Sex Research, Kinsey published one of the most influential pieces of literature in American sex history. Sexual behaviour of the human male. Five years later, in 1953, he published sexual behavior of the human female. The books contained controversial information for the time, as they detailed topics such as homosexuality, premarital sex, and even beastiality. Yet this illicit information intrigued the public and the books quickly rose to the top of the New York Times bestseller list. The most notably controversial information presented was the occurrence of homosexuality in America. At this point, homosexual acts were legal, yet Kinsey's reports detailed many people having homosexual. Encounters he estimated that 10% of the population was homosexual. This statistic, now known to be higher than the actual percentage of 4.5%, was shocking to American citizens. The books also contained innovative new measures for sex research. The Kinsey scale. Scale still used in sex research today is a graduated scale from zero to six that measures the level of homosexual orientation in an individual, with 0 being entirely heterosexual and six being entirely homosexual. The scale was an important finding in research, as it provided the basis for homosexual. Research and a reliable way to measure homosexuality going forward. And yeah, it's one of those things. Also, I don't want to say that like 4.5% is the definite percentage of of homosexuality. Like, I don't think we have perfect data on that now. And Kinsey's data wasn't perfect, but he was the first person who was studying this and not condemning it was just like, this is the thing that people do. Let's try to understand it, you know, which is you. You get a lot of credit for that in my book. And again, like 1952 or 48, nineteen 48. Sorry, like that's that's he's very ahead of his time. Totally. Yeah. And he he also, like, started carrying out. It wasn't just like the thing that kind of first brought to prominence was his, his, these kind of frank discussions of homosexuality. But he started also discussing just like heterosexual sex life in a way that hadn't been before, where it was just kind of trying to understand what people do and not judging it and not not approaching it from any kind of moral or religious territory. Just just this is a thing people do. Let's try to understand how common different things are. When Kinsey study went viral, James Burt was working. The US Air Force Medical Corps, which he joined to avoid getting drafted. He did a residency next at a hospital in Chicago and eventually wound up performing his residency at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New York City. He finally received his medical license in June of 1951 from the state of Ohio and moved back home to Dayton in the first of what would become a major series of poor decisions. And this is a very anti Ohio podcast. I think we we're open about that. Yep. You ever been to Ohio? Courtney's first mistake Ohh yeah yeah yeah, everyone who's been knows. Yeah. Yeah, what a great response. Yeah, I know some lovely people from Ohio. Ohh, sure. There's great people from everywhere. Yes. Yeah, but not a prize. Should have been a lake, is all. I'll say. Look, we we got, we don't have enough lakes and we have too much Ohio. That's that's all I'll say on the fair enough. Robert James Burt started his own practice, which was focused on gynecology and obstetrics, and he started his practice the year before Kinsey wrote his book on female. Sexuality. Burt was not board certified and gynecology or at or in obstetrics, but that did was not a barrier to practicing in those at the time. I don't know if it is today, but at the time you could do as long as you were a doctor you could you could you could practice gynecology and obstetrics without being board certified in them. So he starts his practice and less than a year later he and his wife separate uh and he files for divorce. This was a fairly rare thing at the time, although not as rare as you'd think. The divorce rate in the 1950s. Is about 2.3 people for every thousand Americans compared to about 3.9 per every thousand Americans today. We're actually, we've actually been seeing divorce rates decline over the last, like decade or so. We're at like the same level we were in 1968, I think. Interesting. What was the reason for the divorce? Was he just like, I saw a lot of ******* this year. We're gonna talk about that. Get out. Yeah, the James Burt story involves a lot of divorce, so. The couple had two sons and a daughter who seemed to have gone with their mother. I don't think he kept the kids, is. I haven't heard any sort of evidence that makes me believe the kids stayed with him. We know very little about their situation because, again, he's divorcing her in the early 50s. Women don't have a lot of illegal aid. You can't have a a bank account as a woman. Totally. That. Oh my God. You know? So, yeah, we know that Bert was the one who filed for divorce. He claimed his wife was unhappy with his financial situation, but this could very well be a lie. Because he was making a lot of money at this point. He's a doctor, you know, and he's throughout his career a very successful one. This could also be a lie, because in 1953, a few months after he filed for divorce, when the divorce was still pending, James Burt traveled to Mexico, got a divorce in Mexico without his wife's involvement, and immediately, worried, married his second wife, Jerry and Indiana. Ohh ****. The first ditch just got a letter in the mail, like, OK, we're done. We're Mexican divorce. It's taking too long in America. We're Mexico divorced, and this will come up later. But you can't do that if you're married in the United States and you file for divorce and then just decide to go to Mexico to get it. Doesn't count. Like that's not the way the law works, you know? Like, so he's this is technically bigamy. He's still married to his first wife when he married his second wife, Gary or true, though, sorry, that is fascinating. And you not like, if I get. Is that still true today? If I get married in the United States, can I only get divorced in the United States? I don't know if you can only get divorced, but if you start divorce proceedings here and then move to another country without the consent of your spouse to get a divorce, it doesn't count, right? Yeah. Seems like you would definitely need consent. Yeah, I'm sure you could, like, if you were like, Oh well, I've moved. I've since moved to this other country. I'm going to initiate divorce proceedings here instead of initiating them. I'm sure that would work, but it does not work the way he did it because he was clearly just fleeing to Mexico. To get a piece of paper that said that he could get another like it. What he was doing was very deliberately shady, you know, for sure. So Gary and James moved into a modern one story house with a swimming pool in a wealthy suburban neighborhood of Dayton, which further undercuts his claim that his wife was unhappy with their finances because, again, he was making a lot of money. I think he was just trying to say, like, she's a gold digger. That's why we're splitting up, you know? And for things that come later, I I'm certain he's lying about this first divorce. Yeah, what a what a lame trope. So the couple had one child, and for a few years seems things seem to be relatively normal for the young doctor and his growing family. But appearances were, in this case, deceiving. A major part of James's job as an obstetrician involved repairing episiotomies at the time the vast majority of women who birth children went through it, a physiognomy, which is a surgical cut made at the opening of the vagina to ease childbirth. This is not as common today, but back in those days doctors believed it made the birth safer. It was. Zero on the child's head. And so it was, it was the norm in some hospitals, 85% of births included in episiotomy. Now things are different. It's not it's still done sometimes, but it was just like almost every doctor would just do it basically every time. It was just kind of the standard thing is this makes it safer for the baby. So we're just gonna, we're just gonna cut her open. Now, it was not strictly necessary in most births. And again, there's a lot of people who will say, like, this was an injury and it was, you know, it was. It was like unnecessary surgery for a lot of people who received it at the time. The reason this doctors would just do this because doctors would not ask the mother before doing this. Right. And this was not just an episiotomy thing at the time. Consent was not a priority in medicine for anyone, men or women. Your doctor told you what you were going to get and you would do it. Doctors were. Probably the most trusted people in the country at this point. It was a different era, and it was just sort of the norm for a doctor to say this is what needs to happen and for the patient to just kind of let it happen. And they wouldn't tell you a lot of the time they would like within a episiotomy. They probably wouldn't say, here's what will happen unless you specifically ask, like, it's just, well, you're going to just having a child, I'm going to knock you out with drugs and do what's necessary to get the kid out. You know that that's how it worked at the time. We're gonna talk a lot about the history of medical consent in this episode. But it was not a thing in the 50s, right? Like, just not a standard thing. A physiognomies were so normal that physicians often did not discuss it at all prior to the birth. This was despite the fact that many women hated the operation, which was extremely painful and permanently altered many people's ability to enjoy enjoy vaginal sex after childbirth. Like most obstetricians, Dr Bert performed a lot of episiotomies, and then, as a matter of course, he would carry out a repair of the episiotomy. Afterwards, you would try to fix it, and there was like a. Saying that, like, you would give him an extra stitch, you know, to tighten things up totally more pleasurable. And the more he did this, God bless the patriarchy. It just. Yeah. Inserting themselves at every stage. Yeah. Yeah, OK. Let me fix it. Let me, let me fix, let me fix it. Yeah. And I I'm, I'm bringing all this up because James Burt is uniquely ****** among obstetricians in this. But, like, they're all doing some shady stuff, like some stuff that we it wasn't shady by the standards of the day, but now, now you you look at medical science in that. You're like, OK, that's a little messed up. Yeah, so the more he repaired the physiognomies, the more he started to have ideas. And I'm gonna put them right up on the website medical bag to explain how what he's started to think. You know what happens when men have idea, do not recommend quote. The doctor believed that women lost all their part of their ability to have an orgasm following childbirth as a result of their vagina becoming too loose post delivery, claiming that women's vaginas were, quote, large enough to drive a truck through sideways. After childbirth. That's Doctor Bertz writing on the matter. Ohh yeah. This is distressing. It's gonna get worse. It's gonna get worse. Yeah, as it normally does on this podcast. As it as it does 100% of the time on this show. Drive a truck through sideways. Truck through sideways. That is what the doctors, buddy. No, no. But you know what? Where you going involve, buddy, a lot of trucks, because global capitalism is heavily reliant upon semis in order to transport goods and services across great distances. I mean, you really pulled that **** together. I thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah. Well, that would that be the products and services that support this podcast? Absolutely is the products and services that support this podcast. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one meant mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. 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If you're having trouble stuck in your own head, focusing on problems dealing with depression, or just you know can't seem to get yourself out of a rut, you may want to try therapy, and better help makes it very easy to get therapy that works with your lifestyle and your schedule. A therapist can help you become a better problem solver, which can make it easier to accomplish your goals, no matter how big or small they happen to be. So if you're thinking of giving therapy a try, better help is a great. Option it's convenient, accessible, affordable, and it is entirely online. You can get matched with a therapist after filling out a brief survey, and if the therapist that you get matched with doesn't wind up working out, you can switch therapists at any time. When you want to be a better problem solver, therapy can get you there. Visit betterhelp.com behind today to get 10% off your first month. That's better helpp.com/behind betterhelp.com/behind. Hey, Robert Evans here. It's been like two months since I got LASIK laser eye surgery and my vision is still 2020. So many things about my daily life has changed. I don't have to worry about putting on a mask and my glasses fogging up. I don't have to take out contacts at night or put them in the day. I don't have to, like, worry all the time when I'm traveling. Like, how many contacts do I have by go swimming at the lake during the summer? Something I like to do, go to the beach or whatever. I don't have to worry about losing a contact or, you know, bringing swimming glasses or something. With me, everything is just easier. And getting it done was easy too. You know, I went in, I had my consultation, they told me I was a good candidate and then I went back in couple of days later about it being about a boom. You know, my eyes were perfect. So LASIK Plus is a leader in laser vision correction in the United States. They have over 20 years in the industry and more than two million treatments performed. If you want to start your LASIK plus journey, you can get $1000 off when treated in September. That's 500 per eye. So visitmylasikoffer.com to schedule your free. Consultation now. Alright, we're back. We're back, and we're just not gonna think too much about that ad transition. So yeah, Doctor Burke decided to fix all that. Between 1954 and 1966, Burt began experimenting on unknowing unconscious patients with his own variations of the standard episiotomy repair after childbirth. Known for his heavy hand with anesthesia, Bert had human chances on which to experiment after delivery. He's a knock him out doctor and he just starts fiddling around in there, you know, just kind of like **** experimenting. Were these the days of operating theatres or was that over? Was he like, come on in boys, she's totally knocked out and I'm gonna try a few things. He's on his own, I think. I think sometimes he has nurses, but he's on his own. The exact nature of the surgeries he carried out varied over time. At first, he mostly focused on making the vaginal opening tighter to try and make vagina smaller and tighter and improve the sexual experience of the husbands of his patients mainly. But in the late 1950s, Doctor Burt started reading the then newly published work of William Masters and Virginia Johnson. Their work was groundbreaking for many reasons, but among them was the scientific data it provided on the fact that the ******** played a key role in causing orgasms. Dr Burt synthesized this finding with his own. Findings over years of experimental episiotomy repairs, the women he'd given his modified surgery to, he claimed, told him their sexual experience had improved after childbirth. James Burt began to develop his own theories about human vaginas and sexual responsiveness from a book titled The Love Surgeon by Sarah Rodriguez. Quote Central Robert's ideas about female sexuality in the surgery he was developing were his ideas about the role of the ******** and female orgasm prior to very recently, Burt wrote. The medical consensus had been that of that. Vaginal orgasm was mature, and orgasm from manipulation of the ******** was immature and thus the ultimate return of the vagina to normal by repair after child birthing was completed seemed adequate. But this, he noted, did not consider the role of the ********. So in 1963, nearly a decade into his casual experimenting with vaginas, James Burt's second wife filed for divorce. Since she is the one who filed, we're able to look at this divorce through the lens of someone besides Doctor Bert. Gary reported that her husband had quote. Struck and physically abused her from time to time. She yeah. She asked that her husband be kept away from her and that their mutually held assets be protected from him. This was not an amicable divorce. James fought back, claiming that he ought not have to pay his wife alimony because, and this is just an incredible line of argument. His divorce from his first wife still had not been legally completed in the United States and thus his marriage to Gary had never been technically legal. So that's his his defense to paying alimony as well. I got married to her illegally. I was breaking. Ohh, we got married, so why would I pay alimony? He's like, however the paperwork lines up to best serve me. Do we know if he did any ****** ** stuff to her vagina? We do not. She had kids with him, so probably, but but I I don't know. I I have not run into confirmation that also. Maybe not because it is. It is kind of uncommon, at least now. I assume it was then too for doctors to, you know, deliver their own children. Right? Like that's considered. Like, maybe not the best idea. Uh, so maybe it was someone else who did it and he didn't have a chance to get in there. I don't know. I haven't seen any sort of confirmation or denial of that, but it was definitely not not a friendly divorce. The judge was not convinced by this line of argument, which is honestly kind of surprising for the time, but he awarded Gary Alimony and child support in their divorce was finalized in 1966. That same year, Masters and Johnson published a book, human sexual response. Which dedicated an entire chapter to the ******** which they labeled quote a unique organ in the total of human anatomy because its only purpose was sexual. They described it as an organ system which is totally limited in physiologic function to initiating or elevating levels of sexual tension, which was a big finding at the time. And it kind of like it went against a lot of the existing ideas about female sexuality, which had often just sort of seen that it was like it was a very a variant of male sexuality, right like. Female sexuality is just kind of like a lesser version of male sexuality. Women don't enjoy sex as much. Like, it's not as big a deal for them. They're not sexual beings in the way that men are. And the Masters and Johnson's research kind of blows that out of the water because, like, women are the only, like, have have an entire organ that's just dedicated to sexual responsiveness. Yeah, it's pretty great. It's pretty, it's it's great. So this is like an important sort of in the in the history of like, understanding human sexuality, this idea that. Like, no, human beings are are all sexual beings, as opposed to, like, it's just just people with, you know, penises. Yeah. So outside of that, yeah, it it it it this. This was, like a bombshell in medical science at the time, and doctor Burt was as influenced by this finding as everyone else. Unfortunately, he also fell into a failure of deduction that similarly plagued Dr William Masters. Both men were physicians, and as a result, they both saw sex and issues with sex in strictly physical and conventionally medical terms. The social aspects of sexual dysfunction, like unequal power dynamics or abuse within a relationship, where boiled out, it was just purely a matter of like, oh, these are how the mechanics of sex work. And like, well, it's not. It's not just a matter of hydraulics. You know, there's a lot that goes on and insects, female sexual problems, then we're blamed on purely physical matters. And I'm gonna quote again from the love surgeon here. According to Bert, he had not informed any of these women, the women he done surgery on, that he had done anything other than a standard episiotomy repair. The combination of realizing the importance of the ********. Sex for women and that the modification he had made to episiotomy repair was improving the sex lives of his patients led Bert to conclude that women's bodies were not anatomically ideal for heterosexual sex, for America's female bodies were pathological when it came to heterosexual intercourse. Based on the research of Masters and Johnson and the information about the improved sex lives he stated he heard from his patients, Bert decided the ******** was too far from the opening of the vagina for women to receive adequate stimulation from the penis during heterosexual ********** ******** sex. So. He's got notes. Oh my God, amazing. Little bit of feedback for God or nature or whoever you did ******* made this. Don't worry, I got it figured out. Yeah, that's amazing. Hubris, like, that's a whole, a whole nother level. Like it's it's it's something else. So, yeah, he started to modify the, again, significant surgical procedure he'd already been performing on his patients without consent for more than a decade. Up to that point, he'd mostly focused on making the vagina tighter. Now he started building up skin tissue in order to move the vaginal opening closer to the ********. This procedure also changed the angle of the vaginal opening. Burt later bragged that under what he started calling his love surgery quote the vagina it. Yeah, I know, it's say now, right? The love surgery. Like, you just need to learn how to eat a ***** and then this will all just go away. No, no, no, that's that is not at all acceptable to doctor James Burke. It is. It is. I mean, it's a matter of like, there's a lot that we'll talk about this more. There's a lot that's wrapped up in it. Part of it is just this mix of men wanting to feel like they're sexual Dynamos and also men not wanting to do anything but missionary sex. And so the whole the whole idea that bird has is like, well, I'll just make it easier for women to orgasm from from purely missionary sex and that will make men that will improve relationships, cause men will be sexual powerhouses then like that. It's it's this idea of like, well, I shouldn't have to learn to pleasure my partner. All alter her Physiology. Oh my God, just five surgeries later. Yeah, it'll be perfect. It was usually just one nine hour surgery, if that makes it better. So, yeah, he moved the vagina towards the ********. He also pulled a significant amount of the labia minora into the vagina because people, yeah, make it pretty. No. He thought it would cause greater stimulation during vaginal sex. I say that he's doing all these things and he says he's getting feedback. He's not telling these women what he's doing, so he's not being like, so I did all this stuff to your bits. How does it feel? He was just, like, have sex after childbirth. And they'd be all like, oh, it's a lot better than it was, you know, when I was pregnant. Be like, oh, that means the surgery works. He's not asking them, how about this? How about he's not, like, getting, he's not even getting not that it would be OK if he was, but he's not actually getting scientific data on this. He's just being like they say, sex is better. It must work. So he doesn't know. He's saying that I know my surgeries, improving sex. He doesn't know if it's number one. He doesn't actually know that it's improving sex. They might just be like, yeah, now that I don't have, you know, I'm no longer pregnant. I'm enjoying sex more, which, which could make sense. He's he's not, he doesn't know if, like, oh, is moving the opening or moving the ******** or is moving the labia minora. Like, what is it that's improving things, if any of it's having an impact? Because he's not actually doing science. He's just kind of futzing around down there. Did he get any complaints? We don't know yet. He does. OK. This is the 60s and they don't know what's being done with love surgery. But isn't telling any of his patients is what he's doing, any of his patients at this point what he's doing? His research is, hey, you were pregnant and now you're not. How's the sex? Yeah. And it's self reported. So, like, if he did get some complaints, he's probably not gonna tell other people about that. Exactly. And also like. No offense but I'm not out here like talking to my OB being like yeah sex great. Well yeah especially and and and that's 2021 like not in the 60s and if you I'm I'm sure some cause some of these women do later go to other doctors to be like what is happened to me? And I'm gonna guess that happened at this. But a lot of those doctors are like, well, it's just pregnancy, you know, pregnancy changes stuff down there. Leave you, like, get out of my office, you know, like, there's nothing I can do for you. This is just what happens. Well, nightmare. Yeah, it's horrible. It's gonna get worse. So bring it on. Yeah. In 1967, James Burt finally succeeded in getting a legal divorce from his first wife so he could marry his third wife, Linda. By this point, he was one of the most successful, and thus wealthiest obstetricians in Ohio. He and his new wife bought property in El Salvador and the Dominican Republic. I'm sure nothing shady with either of those transactions. They also bought a condo in Vail, Co, so they wouldn't have to spend as much time in the blighted hellscape that is Ohio with Dayton. Within Dayton, the Birts gained a reputation for being ostentatious and somewhat ***** rich people. They held huge pool parties that were swimsuit optional. James Burt wrote. Wore gold chains and long fur coats in the winter. On at least one occasion he wore a pink sapphire safari suit at one of the parties he threw. Are there photos? Not that I found. He was not particularly social with or popular among his fellow doctors. One of his colleagues bluntly stated that James didn't enjoy golf because he, quote preferred indoor games, and you can translate that however you want, yeah. So he's like a kind of probably kind of like a ******* dude in this. I'm guessing a lot of key parties at the Burt residence, you know? Sure. In 1973, James's third marriage fell apart when Linda left her husband for a ski instructor she'd met in Vail. Yeah, yeah, yes. Now that is real cut? Maybe so not not really, because it's unclear if she left him before or after he started living with a 21 year old. Ohhh, I know every little bit of hope. It was 46 at the time. In short order, he duly married this much younger woman whose name was Joan, and they stayed together for a while. To his credit, he did wait until after he and his third wife had a legal divorce to get married to his force fourth wife. John and James bought a yacht on Lake Erie. She wore diamonds constantly. The couple did not grow anymore popular among James's colleagues. Walter reeling junior, a Dayton physician who worked near Doctor Bert, later claimed that other doctors and their spouses avoided the birds at social gatherings in the 70s. No one, he claims, wanted to sit at a table with them, Sarah Rodriguez writes quote. Partly this was because of the manner in which the birds behaved at such dinners. Both Walter reeling and his wife Susie reeling, recollected how Joan Burt, decked out in furs, would be physically. All over her husband during medical society dinners, talking a lot and bragging about how many orgasms she enjoyed, James Burt apparently did not seek out friendships with other physicians, and Walter, reeling, could not recall a physician who sought out Bert's friendship. So lot of PDA that everyone finds kind of creepy, right? Sex positive here. But if you're like, sitting at a dinner talking about how often you orgasm at, like, a professional dinner with your colleagues? Kind of weird. Kind of weird. Kind of weird that not the time for that. Kind of conversation, you know? There aren't that. He's an OB. This is related to work. Yeah. Like, does he think he's like Jordan Belfort and like the Wolf of Wall Street? The wife with the diamonds on the yacht? Like grow strong, Jordan Belfort energy. That's literally what I'm like. Dog. Come on, bro. By the mid 1970s, doctor Burt had added yet another step to his love surgery. Some of his patients had complained of pain during sex. After his operation, he decided the most. Yeah. Ohh no. Yeah. Wow. Now obviously it couldn't be that his operation was a bad idea. It had to be that there was yet another problem with female anatomy that needed to be corrected. He decided the most likely culprit was the pubococcygeus muscle, which is a constrictor muscle at the rear wall of the vagina that supports the uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes, bowel, bladder, and vagina. This is the organ that you control when you do kegels, right? That's that's the muscle that he decides is the problem. It is extremely important it provides. Control. Not over just vaginal feeling, but urination and defecation. It's a very important muscle to have. James cut it because he decided it was getting hit during penetrative intercourse and causing pain, which made it harder for his patients to orgasm again. None of them told him to do this, nor was he carrying out medical research to determine if the pubococcygeus muscle was in fact interfering with sexual pleasure. He just sort of assumed it was the culprit and in his words, decided to quote cut the damn muscle. Oh my God, pretty bad. Like, yeah, I come real easy, but cannot stop wetting myself and ******** everywhere. Yeah, which might have an impact on, I don't know, a lot of things. It wasn't like he's not totally severing it, but he's severing it enough that it it does cause problems with incontinence and stuff for a lot of his patients. We'll talk about that later. So later on, once knowledge of his love surgery was public, many of his patients would come forward with complaints that love surgery had made them incontinent. We don't know what percentage of them suffered this way because in the mid 70s he still was not telling anyone what he was doing. This was now 20 years into his experiments with love surgery. Yeah, so we we don't know what percentage of his patients. Suffered incontinence as a result of the surgery because in the mid 1970s he still wasn't telling anyone what he was doing and this is now 20 years into his experimenting with love surgery. Bert of course claims to have heard almost universally positive reports from his patients about their post childbirth sex lives. By 1975 he claims to have performed his love surgery on more than 4000 women. Oh my God yeah. That's some good ****. It's not. It's terrible. It's some bad ****. Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot of people getting surgery that absolutely did not ask for my hometown. Yeah, yeah. That is a town worth of. That's most of Ohio, I have to assume. But you know, it isn't most of Ohio. Hope or I don't even know where. Go ahead. I mean, Ohio does advertise on our show was gonna say we could get an Ohio ad and like, you could be factually wrong. And for the record, if if there's an Ohio Ed don't listen to it. Do not move to Ohio under any circumstances. Yeah, no idea why Ohio get on out of there like Ohio on out. You know, you know your audience. This is a firmly anti Ohio. Yeah. Profound. You're wasting your money here. Yeah. Go, yeah. I mean, less money for Ohio is is a win for the whole world, but still, I just don't want anyone to move there. Anyway, here's some ads. 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I went in, I had my consultation. They told me I was a good candidate and then I went back in a couple of days later about it being about a boom. You know, my eyes were perfect. So LASIK Plus is a leader in laser vision correction in the United States. They have over 20 years in the industry and more than two million treatments performed. If you want to start your LASIK plus journey, you can get $1000 off when treated in September. That's 500 per eye. So visit my LASIK offer. Dot com to schedule your free consultation now. Alright, we're back. So yeah, Doctor James Byrd is a liar, obviously. So we should take his claims that he performed a surgery on more than 4000 women with a grain of salt, because there's not documentation of this, but he was one of the most, if not the most popular obstetricians in Dayton in his day. So he it's a lot he experimented, probably in the low that probably at least a couple 1004 thousands. Probably an exaggeration. He's a narcissist, but 2000's not out of the, not out of the. Possibility. You know, he's been at it for like a decade, right? 20 years. Yeah. 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's done this a lot. And he was one of the most successful obstetricians in the whole Midwest at this point. And the average salary of a doctor in this. Is like 62,000 a year, which is really good money. And, you know, the 1960s, seventies, he's making like 400 grand a year. Holy ****. He's extremely successful. His office was on the top floor of a stylish downtown building. He had eight exam rooms and a waiting room, which included a couch shaped like a woman's mouth. A little bit creepy. It must be said that he was very popular with his patients. Doctor Burt was charming, friendly, and said to have exceptional bedside manner. He listened to his patients in an era in which male doctors were generally expected to ignore the complaints and fears of their female patients. One nurse later recalled that he quote communicated with women when a lot of doctors wouldn't. There were a lot of physicians that were patting women on the head and saying, now, sweetie, don't worry, I'll take care of it. And Doctor Burt was not that kind. He would he would explain to you what he was. He wouldn't tell you what he was actually doing, but he would explain to you what he was claiming he was going to do. He would make you feel good about handing over all the power he would make you feel listened to before performing a surgery on you that he did, you did not ask for and did not know was even a thing that could be done. Patients would often claim his office was a refuge. Dr Burt would listen to their fears about childbirth and sexual dysfunction, which was not a subject most doctors would even broach, Sarah Rodriguez writes. Bert seemed to sympathize with his patients. Bert, sympathetic ear perhaps, appealed to many women as he listened to their worries and fears about their upcoming labours or hysterectomies, and he seems to have believed that he was acting sympathetically toward them by performing love surgery in addition to delivering their child or performing a hysterectomy. In his view, Burt surgically altered their bodies to alleviate their concerns and problems. All of which, regardless of what the women may have been telling or not telling him he felt were essentially about sex. Yeah, it's it's good stuff. So Doctor Burt, of course, performed his love surgery after nearly every childbirth, even on women who never complained to him about having sexual problems. He performed his love surgery after vaginal hysterectomies, too, and regularly when performing abdominal uterus suspension. So he was just he he stopped just doing this after episiotomies after you get a surgery and you get a surgery and you get a surgery and like this and like, again, it's not an OB surgeon, right? Like, I feel like that needs to be stated. Over and over again, that is not his. Like, he's not trained. Yeah. I mean, he's trained. He's not board certified like you get training. I get like he he he's he's not trained. Yeah. Yeah, he's this is not the thing he should be doing at the time. It is not illegal for him to be doing this. Which is the fault of flaw and I think the medical system in this big what the hell? Yeah, as a general rule, if a patient with a vagina was unconscious in front of him, he would he would he would do his love surgery like that. That was kind of his. Like, you're knocked drunk around this guy. Definitely don't race, man. One thing that endeared him to his patients were his promises. Are they what? What indeed he was he. Yeah. He was extremely popular during this. Sophie, all you have to do is listen to women. But he's. Yeah, like, he's he's meeting the lowest bar, which is he's not like, patting them on the head and saying they're there. Girl, this is like, this is adult time. Like, that's what a lot of male doctors do and he doesn't. He sits there and he listens and he takes it seriously and then he does whatever it is he wants. He's not. He's a monster. Yeah, I I hear you let me, let me, let me cut you up real quick. Like, what the. Alright. Yeah, he's. I mean, yes. But like, it is important to the story that he's popular during this. That's part of why he gets so many women to experiment on us. He's extremely popular. We know, extremely successful. You can look up his face. I don't want to. There's pictures of him. Yeah, you know, he's he's like it. It's important that he was so endearing to his patients because that's why they trusted him, and that's why so few of them initially, like, recognized that something was awry. He was very popular, in part for his promises of pain free childbirth, which he accomplished by giving expectant mothers huge doses of drugs that rendered them unconscious throughout the whole process. This was not uncommon for the time, and it gave birth the ability to more easily do whatever he wanted with his patients who were again. Canvases to him. By this point, he had come to believe that all female bodies needed fixing because they were badly designed for heterosexual ********** ******** sex, which he considered the only normal sex act. He believed he was justified in performing his surgery on every vagina he got his hands on because he did not see his surgery as elective. Instead, he was correcting a malformation. He thought of it the same way as like a Doctor Who corrects a cleft palate, right? That's what's going on in this guy's head. Sometimes he would even lie to his patients. For a chance to get in there and root around from the New York Times quote Miss Phillips was one of the many women who went to Doctor Burt for a relatively minor physical problem. She was told she needed a hysterectomy because her fallopian tubes were rotting. Now she suffers chronic infections, extreme difficulty urinating, and excruciating pain if she attempts intercourse. The strain initially, eventually destroyed her marriage. She said seven hours of surgery completely changed her life. I feel like a freak, Miss Phillips said. I can't date, I can't ride horses, I can't urinate, she characterized. Surgery is a form of sexual abuse. And said he stole parts of my body, which is fair. Yeah, that is not there's no jokes, even. That's so sad. There's not a joke. It's a nightmare. It's a horrible, horrible man who did horrible things in the in the name of medicine to women who trusted him implicitly. Trust no one. Women trust no one. Certainly not a gynecologist who wears fur coats. That's that's that's the that that auto. Warning side yeah. Gynecologists who worked in and around Doctor Bert knew about his surgery and recognized it because they would often examine his former patients. Joy Martin, who was a a woman he performed his surgery on after delivering her son in 1974, said doctors would say doctor Bertz done surgery on you, hasn't he? Yeah, because like, they they they would see like, she would go in with. She went in with complaints and was like, what's if feels like something's wrong? And they were like, Oh yeah, you you had Doctor Burt. He switched the holes. I don't know, like, they they knew what he was doing. It is important to note that while James Burt went much further than any of his colleagues, he was not alone in his obsession with making female bodies better suited for heterosexual intercourse. Joseph Dilley and early 20th century. Obstetrician who helped popularize the episiotomy recommended this surgery and its subsequent repair because it could tighten the vagina and, quote, restore women to virginal conditions in the 1970s. Author and childbirth expert Suzanne Arms would argue that the real reason for this procedure was to increase the ability of husbands to enjoy sex after childbirth. In other words, Doctor Burton has colleagues framed their various tightening surgeries as being done for women, but their real purpose was to make things more enjoyable for men by the mid 1970s. Public discussion of loose post childbirth vaginas had become common in in popular culture in 1974 and his best selling book, how to get more out of sex, psychiatrist David Rubin urged mothers to get vaginal tightening surgery, calling it a simple procedure that could make a woman of 40 almost the same sexually as a girl of 18. No, that's pretty problematic. Yeah, yeah, not great. It's like on the news. Where where is that? Yeah, that is a book. How to get more out of sex by psychiatrist David Rubin. Like, that's a mainstream pop psychiatrist being like, get tightened up so you'll be like a teenager. Men love teenagers, you know? It's pretty bad. He claimed surgery could turn back the clock and turn post birth vaginas from the Carlsbad Caverns and back into. And I'm so sorry that I had to read this phrase poetic and back back into the penises little grotto of pleasure. Ohh my ******* God. David Rubin everybody ohh. Pretty bad. Pretty bad. Bad and bad. Bad and bad for sure. So divorce rates started to raise during the 1970s, and in 1976 the Cosmopolitan article noted that popular myth blamed some of this on loose vaginas. It argued that one way to keep a couple from splitting up was to, quote, tighten up the vagina in order to enhance the pleasure of intercourse. This article also explicitly urged women to get surgery, saying that while Kegels could help, they were unlikely to go far enough. You wouldn't hesitate to go to a doctor. Surgery and a faulty appendix. So why hesitate when the happiness of your sexual life maybe at stake? It's good to my ******* God, that's pretty bad. Now, I want to note that an awful lot of mothers got variations on this surgery, on their own recognizance, and had wonderful experiences. It's still not an uncommon thing to do after childbirth today. And I'm not condemning the practice, just pointing out the extremely sexist way in which it was presented and in which men tended to urge it, because that's important context for why doctor Burt didn't really think he was doing anything people would have issues with by the late 1970s. It started circumcising his patients clitorises, in order to expose more of the organ and make it more easily stimulated by sexual intercourse, from the love surgeon quote. Doctors understood the sexual nature of the ******** and its importance to female sexual pleasure, and thus some blamed the ******** for a woman's failure to orgasm with her husband. The removal of the clitoral hood was an attempt to fix this concern beginning in the late 19th century, at a time when the espousal of female orgasm during marital sex was increasingly seen as an important component of a healthy marriage, physicians performed female circumcision to help married women who wanted, or whose husbands wanted their wives to have orgasms during vaginal sex. This is also very important. Without understanding this, it might actually look like Doctor Burt, by performing love surgery, was showing more care for the sex lives of his patients than the men urging them to tighten up to avoid divorce. His surgery was focused on giving women more orgasms, but for a profoundly selfish reason, so their husbands would feel like they were good at sex without needing to do foreplay or, God forbid, perform oral sex. See, all of the improvements Dr Burt made weren't actually correcting deficiencies. In the vagina, they were correcting deficiencies with standard missionary sex. Many women, maybe even most women, won't regularly organize orgasm from simple missionary sex alone. This is why foreplay and oral sex and other ******* positions are good things to try. Doctor Burt thought thought all of that was abnormal and thus bad, right. The the whole goal is for them to come from this, right from the kind of sex that lazy men in the 60s most want to give them. Yeah. How's he gonna be a missionary style ******* though? That's what I don't know. He was a ******* I'm guessing, right? Maybe he was not OK. Those people should have exposed him to some more positions, that's all. Yeah, he seems like the kind of guy who was bad enough at sex that he had to perform a legal surgery in order to please somebody, you know? It's not great. It's not great. Well, I love. I love when men are like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not me. It's not me. It has to be. There's no way you could bend over and, yeah, stroke it this way. Hmm. Jesus Christ, man. There's not a whole family of tools that have been invented to, to aid me in this endeavor. There's not a whole wide variety of things like if, if if I can't please you in the laziest way possible. It's time for. Serious multi hour long surgery. By the mid 1970s, James Burt felt that he had finally perfected his surgery. He was ready to share it with the world. So in 1975, he and his wife Joan, coauthored a book. Yeah, they wrote a book. They wrote a book. Joan was fully drinking the kool-aid, but she didn't know any better because she was ******* 25 years younger. Yeah, yeah, it's it's not great. The book was titled. I apologize for this too. Surgery of love. Now, this was not a medical manual. It was more of a pop medical text that functioned primarily as an advertisement for his love surgery. It is, I feel, comfortable saying, one of the most offensive documents ever published. In Part 2, we'll talk about what it said, but that is going to be the end of the episode for today. Courtney, how are you feeling? Shook. If one word just this is this is a whole. This is these sucks. He sucks. Hmm. And also, you have to be so careful who you entrust your ***** too. And I feel like that still stands today. Yeah. Forever. It it does he wanna plug any plugable? Yeah, of course. I have a podcast about sex. We talk about pleasurable sex on my podcast private parts unknown. So if you need a little pick me up after this, go check it out. Check out, check that out and check out. I don't know the history of the surgical abuse and problems with consent and medicine. Check that out on our next episode actually. Podcast. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break our handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Here's Chuck Wicks from love country. Talk to Chuck where we bring you what's really happening in the country music family. We also if you love country, here's the deal. You love country music, you can be on the podcast. So if you're a fan, country music what you can call in anytime you like. I want to talk about this. Hulk Hogan called in. He's like Chuck Walker. I love your podcast. Jason Aldean, Jimmy Allen, Carly Pierce, Lauren Alaina listen to new episodes of love Country. Talk to Chuck every Monday and Thursday on the Nashville podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to. Guest hey guys, I'm Kaylee. Short on my podcast. Too much to say. I share my thoughts on everything from music to martinis, social media social anxiety, regrets to risky text, and so much more. I have been known to read my literal diary entries on my show, and sometimes I do interviews with my crazy group of friends, so if you guys want to tune in, you can hear new episodes of too much to say every Wednesday on the national podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to him.