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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her social discoveries on chimpanzees. So four whole months, the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear into the vegetation. Bing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Capal Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books to read. Your has blood on his hands. Listen to Sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. To welcome ******** behind people bad about talk. Evans Robert host. Hello boy Sophie. I forgot the order of words. Go into in sentences briefly. I think people will get the gist of it. I think all you need is to present the proper words and the order doesn't really matter. This is like a A do It yourself podcast. I just, I throw the words at you you, you. Line them up. Right. Why do you think Yoda is so popular? That's exactly what I was going for. Sophie is Yoda, and like Yoda, I also train child soldiers. I know I've met Garrison. Their little hands can reach into the hard to reach places of a rifle, which makes it a lot easier for them to do maintenance. Look, this isn't a podcast about why child soldiers are such a good idea. This is a podcast about the worst people in all of history. And today my guess is Francesca. If you're in tiny. Yeah. Did I get it right? Yeah. Francesca, I was on your show. Which is which is has both a pod and a video component. Yes, and I apologize for that. I I I, like, forced you to turn on your camera, but yeah, Robert crushed it. He it was it was rough, you know, seeing, actually seeing your face. I don't people I don't know if people are ready for. Just how like Disney Prince Handsome you are. Like, that's a very nice way to say perpetually hungover. So thank you for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, in a punk rock like Disney Prince, but punk rock, yeah. That was the Situation Room podcast. Everyone should check that out. And Robert was great. It was great. It was a great podcast. I had a lot of fun on it. And today we're going to be bit you washining about, well, something else I want to keep. I want to actually keep the, the, the exact topic of today's podcast a secret until the big reveal because it's going to be, it's going to be a good time. For Jessica, it's not. How do you feel about babies? I feel like I've been asking that a lot. I'm not. I don't know. I don't like where this is going already. Alright, alright, let me ask you an easier question. How do you feel about Nazis? Ohh, bad. There you go. Nazis are bad. Nazi doctors. Ohhh, you know, just cutting edge. Maybe a little too much so. Yeah, definitely too much cutting. That's fair to say about Nazi doctors. This is a fun one. Because we're talking about. Patsy doctors but the most of what we're talking about occurs in like, the 1960s. So. You're gonna have some you're going to have a good time with this one. You're gonna have a really good time with it. It's almost like they're they never suffered the full consequences of their crimes against humanity, and that is able to scatter throughout the world and keep on genocide hiding. So that is a big aspect of what we're talking about here. Now, I'm going to guess you and most of our listeners are broadly familiar with the story of a doctor named Joseph Mingolla, who was one of the worst, maybe the worst doctor there's ever been. He was the chief. Position at Birkenau which was a sub camp of Auschwitz and Mangala carried out selections which meant he was part one of his jobs. He was one of a number of doctors who would determine who would go on to do labor at the camp and who would be killed immediately and he liked doing selections because he also got to pick out people who he thought would be most useful for the medical experiments that he was carrying out and that mostly meant picking out twins. He had a whole thing for twins. It is weird. Talk about Mangala one of these days there's like a a grim singled out. Remember that show from the oh Jesus, no, yes, he's like you will do twins. I mean in some instances they did throw twins on there. It was more of a dating game, which I know that that Auschwitz was not about so. Well, definitely if they had just sort of reconfigured it to be about life and love and not, you know, death, you know, maybe it could have been had something there. I mean the the horrible thing is that if you look at pictures of Doctor Mangala from the Holocaust era, he does not look like you would expect he. He absolutely does not look like, you know, some of the Nazis have that have that strong war criminal vibe to them, to mingolla, mingolla looks like aggressively normal to the point. Where it's it's actually deeply unsettling. I do stand up comedy, so I'm surrounded by very, very sweet faced boys who are like, wait, you showed your junk? To whom? Yeah, exactly. Mingolla would have killed in the LA stand up scene. By which I mean he would have murdered. Yeah, yeah, that like swoop back hair situation? Yeah, you wouldn't call him as Doctor Death, although maybe you would because it's always the aggressively normal looking guys. So Mangala is particularly famous. Because the experiments he conducted on twins were so garishly vile, he would amputate like one twins limb or infect 1 twin with the disease to see if it would transfer to the other in some way. At one point he killed 14 twins in a single night by injecting their hearts with chloroform. He would also inject dye into the eye color of 1 twin to see if it would change the color and the other twins eyes just like Eli Roth style batshit nonsense like people talk about like, well you'll hear sometimes from people who have not studied the Holocaust enough. Like well you know, it was horrible. They did get some, like useful medical data out of it was like, no, it's almost all nonsense. Like it was just people doing like, like, like completely ******* pointless ****. It's deputizing like a 13 year old kid with just all the hormones, like just like trying to hook up a rat to a balloon and seeing how high it goes. And and then yeah, it was like all the kids who someone should have come to them when they were 11 years old and like, like torturing cats. And instead you give them like complete control over the life and death of thousands. At a work camp, it's it was pretty bad, is what I'm saying about the Holocaust. That's awful. And and and I'm I know you've had Matt Lebon, who is my boyfriend and he is actually a fraternal twin and so I wish he was on his talk a little bit about this. But. As he says on stage in a joke, you know he cannot feel his twin sister's orgasms. So. No, you can't feel. You might. You might. Yeah, you're sensitive to your twin, but you can't feel their pain. Yeah, and you could have asked them that as opposed to injecting dye into their eyes to see if that did something. My God. Like, yeah, there's the babies are crying. Yeah, that's what babies do. Also, they're in prison. Yeah, yeah, you've taken them from their parents. Mangala, this isn't really useful data, so Mangola deserves his infamy. Obviously he's the most famous of the Nazi doctors, but there were actually a **** load of doctors necessary to keep the third Reichs. Machinery of death humming along. For one thing, under like the rules the Nazis established for the concentration camps, well, for the death camps, only doctors could actually deploy Zyklon B into the gas chambers. Every time gas was deployed into a chamber, it was done by a by a physician. That was like one of the rules that they stuck to very diligently. A great number of doctors were also involved in the Holocaust through pharmaceutical giant IG Farben, who were the people who make aspirin they've turned into. I mean, one of the things they've turned into now is Bayer. And one of the doctors who worked at IG Farben was a fellow named Otto Ambrose, now Doctor Ambrose had risen through the ranks of the company during the early Nazi years, and from 1940 to 41 he headed up their search for a site to put new to put in new synthetic rubber and fuel plants. They settled on a Polish town named Oswiecim, which became the site for Auschwitz Oswiecim. And my guess is the the Polish version of the name Auschwitz. So IG Farben liked Auschwitz as a site because the US was already. Building a camp there and the US agreed to give them slave labor to help run their chemical plants. Construction started in 41 auto. Ambrose helped oversee this process and manage the factory. Through the war years. IG Farben would rent Jewish slaves from the US for three marks per day. Four marks if the worker was skilled. In 1941 Doctor Ambrose wrote to the IG Farben board. Our new friendship with the s s is proving very beneficial. So high-ranking. So, so are they. Are we building chemical plants to eventually. Do bad things to our own people like is it like a a number of things. So the the plant specifically that Ambrose is working, they're attempting to cause obviously germinate, not great on natural resources, right. That's why all of German history has been the way that it is. So they're fueled by hate. That's the main JK, obviously, Angela, you're fine. So they're trying to make synthetic rubber because they need rubber, but they don't have access to the actual raw material that makes rubber. Most of that comes from Africa in this. And they're also trying to make synthetic gasoline. Because they need to be able to move their vehicles. But Germany does not have a lot of, like, in the territory they've conquered doesn't have a lot of fuel. So that's part of what they're doing, trying to keep the war machine going. Got it. The other thing that the Nazis are trying to make at Auschwitz is sarin nerve gas. And Doctor Ambrose is 1, member of a team of four that invents sarin nerve gas, which is one of the deadliest nerve gases ever. And that's so they're they're making a mix of horrible chemical weapons and attempting to make different synthetic chemicals to allow the Nazi war machine to continue there. Amazing. Wow. It's gonna go in some surprising directions, though. So high-ranking IG Farben employees at Auschwitz, like Doctor Ambrose, were allowed to purchase clothing that had been stolen from the people who were gassed. And the reason that this was a good deal for them was that Jews and other victims of the Holocaust were generally not told they were headed to the death camp. And they were just told they were being they were migrating, they were being forcibly migrated. So they would generally wear their finest clothing. Because obviously you don't know if all of your luggage is going to make it. You're going to wear the best stuff you have so that you at least have it when you arrive at your new home. So a lot of times they're gassed in the finest clothing that they have access to, and then it's taken from their bodies and people like Doctor Ambrose get to pick through it. Now, that is the smallest but cruelest detail and the most insignificant part of the Holocaust and death camps, but also such an annoying **** you like. Yeah, that was my mom's necklace. That was my finest, like, Chanel, whatever jacket. And you're just gonna. That's not OK. No, it's all. I mean, it's the Holocaust. It's all pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. Yeah. It's a pretty good life, though, working at Auschwitz as an IG Farben manager. Unfortunately, the factory produced basically nothing of value for the Nazi war machine. Again, one of the overwhelming themes here is that, like, they were bad at a lot of this. Stuff like this is like people overemphasize because The History Channel has done a million documentaries on, like, crazy Nazi weapons and Nazi science. They ****** ** more than they got things right. Which is part of why they lost the war. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think it's so messed up. Because there is lore, like I think anyone who's that into Nazi and and Nazism and the Third Reich and is like a little bit, a little bit of a fanboy or girl. And I always like that line is so thin and weird, but like overinflating just how like amazing their medical, you know, like innovations were. It's like, no, they were injecting. Children with chlorine. What a chlorophyll form. Chloroform was one of the things they injected children with. Yeah, like and and found out nothing. Yeah, they got nothing useful out of that, I mean, and they had like a lot of their *******. Their super weapons was just like huge wastes of resources that would have been better spent towards making, I don't know, I'm not very sexy, but incredibly effective. Medium tank like the T34. That would have allowed them to, you know, actually have more armor on the bed. Like they were like they did it all wrong. I'm a member of a very awkward. Group of people which are German history, military history nerds who also have to repeatedly, but I'm not like in that way. So in early 1945, the IG Farben facility ASH, which was abandoned after heavy US bombing. And this is actually where Umm Primo Levi, if you know anything about Primo Levy, he is. He survives Auschwitz because he, like, gets gets a gig working. He he's a lab technician, basically. And he gets a gig working in the IG Farben lab. He's able to hide when they when they flee. Dr Ambrose, though, escapes the Russian army with the German soldiers who flee Auschwitz. And these soldiers take as many of their remaining prisoners as possible and lead them on a death March through the Polish. Just to try to get rid of the rest of them. When the war ended and the camps were liberated, the role of IG Farben and doctors like Ambrose and Mingala became clearer. In 1945, after Germany sued for peace, the Allied command utterly dismantled German industry and put what remained under its authority. The stated intent was, quote, to render impossible any future threat to Germany's neighbors or to World Peace. And I guess broadly you could say that was done. Well, Germany is not a threat to. Yeah, I mean, great podcast, Robert. I've really enjoyed. Solve the hours. The end of war we did. Yeah, and all the bad people face consequences. Any who? What's this podcast again? Yeah, unfortunately, as soon as they figured out dealt with that Nazi threat to World Peace, a new threat to World Peace presented itself. Which was that the US and the USSR were. We're just just just just rubbing their ***** in anticipation of getting to kill each other, particularly the US at this point. And the Hawks within capitalist nations started agitating and preparing for a war against. Communist Russia as soon as the one against Germany ended, and it was decided by these guys that fully liquidating German industry would be a bad idea, since most of that industry lay within the zone of Allied control and they might need to use it for the next war. This is the same reason why a lot of German military leaders don't get punished to the extent that they should is there's this understanding like, well, these guys fought the Soviets. We're about to fight the Soviets, so who cares if they presided over a couple 100,000 executions in Poland or whatever? You know, we need this guy. I mean, and therein lies the hypocrisy of war. Hey, they're good at mass murder. We might need them. We might need to murder some people. Yeah, one of, I think one of the, I mean, there's a number and it happens on all sides, not just the United, like the United States and Russia both. We're going to talk about this a bit. Both take a lot of Nazis to use. But like at France does it, Britain does it, like ******* Norway does it like everybody's. It's like the Beanie babies of Nazis moment, like, gotta collect them all and. Yeah. You have, like, the doctor, and then you get, like, the mad scientist, the guy who's good at running factories. Yeah, exactly. It's like a ******* it's like a rummage sale at the end of the Third Reich. Like, who needs an expert with a questionable morality? Everyone, it turns out. That's what states do. I think the most one of the most probably the most defensive example to me would be Albert Speer who was like Hitler. Hitler ******* loved this dude by kind of the end of Hitler's life. Speer was his favorite Nazi and Albert Speer was an architect, which Hitler always wanted to be and if he had it probably could have been a decent architect. A lot of people say if he focused on the instead art school. But anyway, Hitler ******* loved architecture, loved Albert Speer. Speer would like make all these Grand Designs for like how how the German Reich was going to look after the war. Spear was also the head of war production. And the head as a result of that, the head of the Nazi like slave labor program. He was he was the one organizing where the slaves were going to make Nazi war production possible. Committed a lot of crimes against humanity that all got whitewashed and covered up because we decided we wanted Albert Speers help planning our industrial economy in order to help fight the Soviets really hard Space Needle. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Great guy. Albert Speer. Assuming, yeah. In 1947 the Allied governments began a series of war crimes trials for 24 directors and senior employees of IG Farben. Dr Ambrose was one of those men. He was sentenced to 8 years in prison for mass murder and slavery. Which seems like to me, I don't know, like 8 years for mass murder and slavery? Kind of seems like maybe not enough. Like, like, I think I know people who got busted with pot who did more than eight years and I feel like slavery is a worse crime. I don't know, I'm backseat nerenberg. Here. Your abs. No, you're absolutely that that that's like, you know, we could use them in five and. Yeah, exactly on a four. And I'm sure they're about to get into that. Yeah. Yeah. So he was one of 13 IG Farben men who were convicted. And by 1951 he was released from prison like 4 years early. He was the beneficiary of a clemency grant so he could contribute to a build up of European industry in order to oppose the USSR. And I want to quote from a write up about this by the international Oncology Networks magazine quote, the recruitment of these experts was sanctioned by the US Joint Chiefs of Staff. Who approved the systematic exploitation of scientific and technical knowledge developed in Nazi Germany in a classified memorandum titled Exploitation of German Scientists and Science and Technology in the United States, they described these men as chosen rare minds whose continuing intellectual productivity we which wish to use. And while the Soviet Union also worked hard in acquiring German expertise with the emerging Cold War, US Joint Chiefs of staff supported every effort designed to guarantee that intellectual spoils were not to fall into Soviet hands. Hence after defeating Nazi Germany in 1945. Operation Overcast, later renamed Operation Paper Clip. More than 1600 Nazi Germans were secretly recruited to develop armaments at a feverish and paranoid pace that came to define the Cold War. In addition, America sent hundreds of experts to Germany to guide the transfer of scientific and technical knowledge back to the United States and with this transfer of scientific and technical knowledge, a large number of chosen Nazi scientists migrated to the United States. Others, however, remained in Germany, where they were ultimately recruited by German companies. You know, sometimes most of us. We fail. We actually, you know, fail, and we have to suffer the consequences. Others others just fail up. And I feel like Nazis, man. They really knew how to fail up and other people help them. Yeah. I think the best known example of this was Verner von Braun, who was probably the single man most responsible for the the US Moon landing. He was the guy who designed our rockets. He was the head of like, a bunch of **** at NASA. He also designed the V2 rockets that were fired blindly at civilian targets. In the UKUM real ***** ** **** used slave labor to make a lot of rockets under the Germans. There's a great Verner von Braun song against him that includes the line. When the missiles go up, who knows where they come down? That's not my department, says Verner von Braun. Good little song. Real ***** ** ****. So this is, you know, it reminds me of like there's a song that you learn in grade school called like, Dirt made my lunch. Dirt made my lunch. Thank you, dirt. Thanks a bunch for my salad and a sandwich and my milk and my lunch. Think. Anyway, the point is, I feel like it's like Nazis made my launch. Yep. Nazis made my lunch. Thank you, Nazis. You're ******* the worst. But a bunch of technology. I mean, this is, you know what? I'm sorry not to make this, like, super, like, politicize this, but I feel like. You kind of. See, and I'm not drawing A1 to 1 here, and I'm gonna get a lot of blowback for this, but you can edit this out. No. But I feel like when you talk about, you know, opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory, a lot of people will be like Israelis have you know it? Israeli technology has done a lot. And you're like, so do you know what I mean? Like, these things are like sort of unrelated. You have cool technology and not an ethnic cleansing. Exactly, yeah, exactly like who? Presumably those scientists could be doing the same work in a state that was not, I don't know, allowing armed settlers to gun down unarmed Palestinians is. It was one example, but there's a lot of examples. For example, you could have a guy making sweet *** rockets and not using giant slave labor camps in order to build them. All of these things are possible. It's like the United States could have landed a man on the moon without rehabilitating a Nazi. Or criminal. All sorts of things are possible without doing the terrible things that come with them. We just choose to do the terrible things because it's easier and we're lazy. But also, like, what about locking them up? If they have like, great, like if they have incredible skill and and and knowledge, you can still lock them up. They can work from prison, they can work from there. They'll produce the blueprints, you know. But they are under a like, they are not free. Was that never explored? No, no, no. No, no. You what? You want to keep them happy? I don't know. They I think they should have all been shot is kind of my attitude. I'm a big capital punishment for members of the Third Reich kind of guy. So the most enthusiastic of the of German companies when it came to hiring old Nazi war criminals was Grunenthal. Now when the International Criminal Court went after IG Farben, Grunenthal was just a baby company. It had been formed in 1946, which technically gladly gave it a clean record visa. Vie Nazis right? The wars over West Germany becomes a thing Grunenthal is is started. And it was a spin-off company from an existing business run by the Verts family for the last 100 or so years. The vertices are your standard. German pre war capitalist aristocracy their ancestor Andreas Vertz founded the family firm in the 19th century, initially as a soap and perfume business. It quickly became prominent, coming to dominate the local economy of akin, a prosperous city in the north. Rhine though the Wirtjes were Catholic, they recognized Hitler for what he was, which is good for business. The family patriarch joined the party early and evil blood. There's no no he was going to make him a lot of money. And he did. Yeah. So they joined the party. Right away and they benefit right away. So it's important to understand the Nazis were just gangsters and they offered bribes to the German capital holding class in exchange for their support. A lot of these bribes were dispensed via a process called Aryanization, in which Jewish owned businesses were stolen by the government and handed over to Nazis. The Verts family were given 2 competing perfume companies, one of which which made the tobacco perfume range that is still sold by the Wirtz firm today. So this company is given a stolen, stolen Jewish perfume business and in 2021. That's that same family still owns that perfume range and profits from it. It's good ****. When the Nazis broke up IG Farben, the versus saw opportunity. Since making perfume and making various medicines use a lot of the same equipment, spinning off into a pharmaceutical company made sense. It also made sense to make use of the huge number of recently freed or never punished at all Nazi scientists who are now out of work in 1950. This doesn't end in some kind of Sephora line being problematic because like, you know, no, it's worse than that. The label? Like it's cruelty free. When you say that you don't perform any any tests on rabbits, I assume you also mean that this did not descend from a line of Nazi cosmetologists. I would say that cruelty free should should also include was never stolen by the Nazis and handed over to someone else. Yeah, I think that does count as we're on the label. But anyway, continue. This business was never owned by Nazis, Robert. You know what? Yeah, we would know what other businesses are not. And by Nazis, unless it's a Volkswagen ad. Unless it's a Volkswagen ad or like a BMW ad or a Mercedes ad or a Bayer ad or an ad for most of them. I mean, not owned by Nazis, but directly supporting the Nazis, like if it's shell, for example. IBM. Ohh yeah, IBM for sure. For *** **** sure, yes, absolutely. But unless it's any of those companies, definitely guaranteed. Not ever owned by Nazis. Probably. Unless it's one like a company that's owned by one of those large like investment firms that had a lot of investments in Nazi Germany. Which is pretty likely, but you know, maybe not. Anyway, adds. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the build to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. For anyone who hates their phone Bill, Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for just $15.00 a month. Mint Mobile will give you the best rate whether you're buying one or for a family and at Mint. Family start at 2 lines. All plans come with unlimited talk and text, plus high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any mint mobile plan and keep your same phone number along with all your existing contacts. 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Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break our handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love. Spreaker from iheart this fall on revisionist history. Is there anything that we haven't talked about or or that I should have asked you or you'd like to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Religious history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Ohh, we're back. So in 1951, Grunenthal hired Dr Ambrose, our friend who developed sarin nerve gas and helped organize the death factories at Auschwitz. 4 years. Four years in prison, right? Yeah, he did. He did his time, you know? Yeah, that's just a year for every other guy he worked on the sarin nerve gas project with. They didn't mind that he'd worked at Auschwitz, and they were very impressed by his other professional credentials. He quickly became chairman of the company's advisory committee. It's a good guy to have advising your company. The dude who advised the US on how to make a death factory Doctor, Ambrose was quickly joined by a number of other old party comrades. And I'm going to quote from the book Silent Shock by Michael Megasonic quote Doctor Heinz Baumgarter was a notorious S doctor at the Saxon houseand concentration camp outside Berlin, in addition to overseeing executions and selecting. Prisoners for the gas chamber, he conducted experiments with injections, explosives and chemicals. One such experiment saw prisoners strapped down and burned with phosphorus so that baumgarter could test an experimental save. Baumgarter was arrested after the war, charged with murder, and tried by the Soviets in Berlin in 1947. He was convicted after a short trial, not a surprising outcome given his appalling record in the efficient Soviet approach to war crimes justice. Baumgarter was sentenced to life imprisonment, but served only eight years before the Soviets returned him to Germany, the exact point at which Green and Holland employed him as unclear. And Bam Cotter was certainly working as a salesman in Grunenthal's monster office in 1960 and 61. By this time he was facing another round of war crimes charges in a German court. In 1962, after a trial in Munster, Baumgarter was convicted of being an accessory to murder and of several and of depraved indifference and sentenced once more to 8 years jail, the time he had already served in the Soviet another eight years. Not not really, because the time he already served in the USSR was taken into account, and so he never went to jail again. He got time served for genocide. That's good **** no? I once thought that American police officers got off with murder very easily and turns out Nazi war criminals not nearly as easy as Nazis. Yeah, what's really fun is looking at how many einsatz group and they were. Those were the guys who played ***** shooting with literal babies. And how many of them survived the war? And how many of the ones that survived the war suffered any kind of legal penalties at all as a spoiler? Not most of them now. By which I mean thousands of them lived. The rest of their lives is free men. So this is. This is, though. OK, now you believe in capital punishment for Nazis, and I sure do. I'm with you. But I feel as though. I'm coming off of I just watched the Epstein docs on Netflix. Anyway, another another *******. And I'm like, death is way too easy. Like, yeah, this is unfair. Death is unfair if you're that big of a ***** ** ****. There's nothing fair if you're that. Here's why I think just immediate execution. Democracy means some right wing shitholes are always going to get elected and they are always going to want to use the Nazis rather than punish them, which is you get a lot of these guys, get nasty punishments and then get pardoned a couple of years later. So I think you just shoot them immediately when everybody's ****** ***. That way we don't have to like, yeah, we don't have to see all their paintings. I, George W Bush and hear his opinions on Afghanistan. Exactly. I mean, I feel the same about George W Bush, but that's a story for another episode that Robert and I are on the same page. Yeah, OK, yeah. Keep going before, you know, the cops are at my door. Oh, wow. I know you're thinking, wow. 2 minozzi war criminals, one of whom was on war crimes trials while working as a salesman for Grunenthal. That's a lot of Nazis that the company, but we're just getting started. Martin Stamler was another Grunenthal hire. As a prominent pathologist during the Third Reich, he wrote articles and published studies proving the racial superiority of the German race. He was a popular proponent of the Nazi racial hygiene program, which ultimately resulted in the Holocaust. After Germany invaded Poland, he advised the S on their population policy, which means it was his job to decide which chunks of Polish society to exterminate. Grunenthal put Martin Stamler in charge of their pathology department from 1960 to 1974. Grunenthal also hired Hans Berger Prince, who worked with Hitler's personal doctor, Karl Brandt. Now, if you're a Nazi, nowhere. Brandt was the Hitler Doctor Who didn't give him a lot of methamphetamine. He wound up as the lead defendant for the doctor's trial at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal. And he was. Executed for his involvement in medical experiments on prisoners and civilians, Berger Prince escaped any punishment for his role in working with Doctor Brandt and he went on to defend the Grunenthal company as an expert witness in court. The most famous Nazi hire of the Grunenthal company was Doctor Ernst Gunter Schenk. You can see him in the movie downfall, played by Christian Berkel, which means he was in the bunker with Hitler at the very end. Shank was the only member of Grunenthal who was a member of the s s. Several of them advised the s s Shank was in the s s. And he was, in fact, the official s s nutritional inspector. During the war, he developed an experimental protein sausage that was tested on 370 concentration camp prisoners, killing dozens of them. Because apparently Shank was pretty bad at making sausage. He was actually captured by the Soviets and managed to survive 10 years in their prisons. When he returned to West Germany, he was barred from working again as a doctor. But Grunenthal didn't care. They hired him anyway. And then there's a man. Need to learn more about the sausage? Yeah. Is it what? Like, I feel like this is some Hannibal **** you know, where it's, like, actually made out of their loved ones brains and they're like, eat it, you know? And they're like, ohh, I think it's more boring. They were just trying to, like, make better military rations out of, like, synthetic ****. I don't know as much about the sausage as I should, but it was mad sausage rubber and and twin babies. Yeah, I get it. We've all been, we've all had a bad sausage. But this one sounds like it was designed. Ironically, I've never had a bad sausage in Germany. Now other parts of the world that's been a different case. So and then there's the guy who's going to be the main Nazi for our story today, Heinrich Mukhtar. Here's Newsweek quote during the war his expertise had been anti typhus work. Outbreaks of the disease and the army made finding of vaccination a high priority. Because typhus cultures cannot live outside a body, it was kept alive by injecting it into prisoners. Once injected with the disease, the prisoners could then be used to try out the vaccines to see if they worked. And Mother's experiments were purportedly carried out in Auschwitz, Buchenwald, and Grodno, as well as at Krakow now. Buchenwald was the main experimental Center for mutters typhus tests. One particular part of the camp, Block 46, was used by Nazi scientists to test treatments for not just typhus, but yellow fever, smallpox, cholera, and diphtheria. One Nuremberg witness recalled dreadful horror at the thought of Block 46. Every person who, quote went to block 46, as an experimental person did not only have to expect death. But under certain certain circumstances, a very long drawn out and frightful death, but also torture and the complete removal of the last remnants of personal freedom. This is what I'm saying about capital punishment, except for Nazis. It is a little bit too easy. But I I hear you. We need to like, what would I agree there's better things to have done to them but I I'm just a fan of getting it done so because again, one of the things here like and people who are big fans of the Soviet Union will point out rightfully, the Soviet Union killed a lot more Nazis who were. Captured. But most of the ones they killed were like normal soldiers who they starved to death. Again. You're going to be a ***** ** **** be a talented, be a prominent ***** ** **** because you're so prominent that yeah, you're unconsolable unkillable because we have, we have so far in the story, 2 prisoners who did time in Soviet prisons to doctors and then got out and went back to the West and did horrible things. Which again? Guy. Is this guy? Yeah. Mukhtar. Mukhtar. Yeah. Now, all prisoners who were part of muckers typhus tests were given a particularly virulent strain of the of the disease of typhus. Half were injected with an experimental treatment and the other half were given no treatment at all. Quote there were cases of raving madness, delirium. People would refuse to eat and a large percentage of them would die. Those who experience the disease in a milder form, perhaps because of their because their constitutions were stronger or because the vaccine was effective, were forced continuously to observe the death struggles of others. So that's what Muktar does. He was part of a horrible engine of unfathomable human misery, but a keyword there is part he wasn't a big face like mingolla. He wasn't the guy directly killing a bunch of people. He was one of a number of doctors organizing this horrific set of trials, and as a result, he got off nearly Scott free. Polish authorities were only able to effectively charge him with mistreating prisoners and stealing scientific equivalent, and he was able to flee back to Germany across the Iron Curtain before he could face any kind of consequence for his work. And in 1946. He became one of Grunenthal's first employees now. Live by default. A lot of German companies in the post war era wound up hiring former Nazis. It was kind of unavoidable in many cases because an awful lot of people joined the party. But Grunenthal was different. Not on time out. Does anyone say timeout? This is me saying to call a timeout on Robert Evans. Did he discover anything after torturing that many people? I don't think they figured out a typhus vaccine. There we go. Yeah, I think German soldiers were still dying of typhus by the end of the war now. I mean, not that it's any consolation. I guess if I or any of my relatives were in that like were performed on like rabbits in cages and injected with all kinds of horrible things, I feel like the last thing I would want is for them to go on and save German soldiers lives. I'd be like, no, no, no, no. And I want, I don't want this helping them advancements to come out of this **** at all. Well, I I I guess the good news is that it did not work at all because the first typhus vaccine was developed in the 70s. There you go. So this did not work, but they did figure some other **** out, which we're going to talk about in a little bit. By the way, Block 4636 or 4646? Block 46 is like what every COVID anti vaxxer thinks that like, yes, the vaccine is doing. And. Have you heard of Mukhtar? You're like, I think it's very different. It is, it is very different, especially since a lot of anyway we we don't need to talk about how other fringe sort of spiritual beliefs wind up dovetailing into Nazism. Today we talk about that a lot anyway, so again, a lot of German companies hire former Nazis. And hey, I should note, if you're a former Nazi in this. It obviously it means you made a horrible moral compromise. It doesn't mean you were a part of the of the direct part of the engineering of extermination. A lot of people just joined it to like get a promotion at, like, whatever ******** gig they did in like the local government or because they were a teacher or something. Not a good thing, but not the same as organizing a series of tortures, torturous medical experiments at Auschwitz. So obviously you were going to have a lot of former Nazis being hired in 194647 because there's millions of them. But Grunenthal was different. Not only did Grunenthal hire way more former Nazis than any other pharmaceutical company, but they had a weird tendency to hire former Nazis. Who had been directly involved with forced labour and concentration camps? One German historian looking at a short list of Grunenthal staff in the 1960s said it's absolutely astonishing that a small company should have such a concentration of convicted war criminals on its staff, unusual even by the standards of post war Germany. So a German historian is like by the standards of everyone else in Germany, these guys hired a lot of ******* war criminals. Unprecedented amounts Grunenthal is like the worst in that in that field. With their staff of war criminals in place, Grunenthal set to the important business of making medicine. One of their first products was a penicillin derivative, which proved to be massively toxic and was quickly pulled. They also marketed a tuberculosis cure that was completely ineffective. There were some eventual successes, and eventually they become get rich off of painkillers. But as the 1950s hit, Grunenthal was still on the lookout for a big product hit something like a lot of money on all of these patients. They keep on dying. What? What are we doing wrong? Like like Umm is it the staff of IS is it the Nazis we love to murder? I don't know what kind of accent I'm doing it. It started in German. I don't know what it is anymore. I have to say Matt does a better accent. He does. He does a very good accent. But like like you might look at your the people you just hired, bro. They who love to watch death and create death. And you're trying to make what? Medicine? Vaccines? Yeah. Something is not right. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, yeah. They're not great at the start, but they're looking for their big hit and they decide that synthetic drugs are probably the wave of the future. Doctor Heinrich Mukhtar put two of his staff doctors on the task of developing new synthetic antibiotics. Now, one of these guys, Doctor Vilhelm Kunz, heated a commercially available chemical as part of his experimentation and created a brand new substance in fatalii L glutamic acid. I mind. It would soon become better known by the name thalidomide. You heard a thalidomide? No. But is that what's in mascara? Cause I ohh. It's much worse than that. I a number of people will be going. Oh ****. At this point slide is very famous. It's in a. It's in Billy Joel's. We didn't start the fire. Among other things. Real famous drugs start the fire. It started something. OK, now doctor Kunz's partner is said to have believed the new compound was a structural analog or a near copy of the kind of barbiturates. Were commonly sold as sleeping pills. Based on this logic, the story goes, Grunenthal decided to carry out tests on rats to determine if thalidomide might be something the company could market as a sleeping aid. Now I say the story goes, because this part is heavily debated. You may notice that it's kind of weird that doctors trying to make a new antibiotic would make a synthetic barbiturate analog and then immediately try to test it as a sleeping pill. Now, stuff like this does happen in medical development. Viagra started as like a heart medication, but it also does stuff that could be useful as a heart. Medication. It's a blood thinner, but there are doctors who will note that it doesn't really seem like thalidomide started as a result of antibiotic research, and that that's a weird claim to make. There are other suspicious things about the drugs origin that first rat study on thalidomide. The first study that Grunenthal does on thalidomide, when they find it, was based around what's called a jiggle cage, which is a special cage that tries to measure the amount of movement in drugged or undrugged rats to determine whether or not a substance sedates them. Basically, you you're giving them the drug, and then you're shaking a cage and like the amount that they. Get agitated is like, OK, either the sedative is working and they don't notice it or not. Right jiggle cage sounds like a strip club. It's a it does. The jiggle cage is a great strip club name. Actually, yeah. Now this particular study is very odd. One pediatrician who analyzed it, Doctor Witkin Delin, described the experiment as having so little scientific value that it should not have been published. Quote the authors claim to have shown a sleep inducing effect, though no sleep was observed. Other pharmaceutical companies later tried and failed to replicate. Glutamate sedative property on animals and they failed. Some suspect the RAT study was fabricated in order to provide clean scientific evidence that thalidomide had promised as a sedative. But it is an extremely effective sedative for human beings. It just doesn't sedate rats. So why is it a big deal that this rat study showed it worked as a sedative in rats when it doesn't? If it does work as a sedative in human beings, what is the issue here? Well, the issue is that a lot of people suspect Dr Mukhtar and Grunenthal faked the RAT study data. Because they already knew before Grunenthal was founded that thalidomide was an effective sedative. They just couldn't say why they knew because thalidomide had been initially developed during the Nazi era via experiments on concentration camp inmates. So they tested it on people, but they couldn't say that. So they needed to fabricate an animal study to be like, now we should test this on humans. Look, it puts rats to sleep. Yeah. We can't say we know why this works. The cage jiggled a lot, you know, and the humans, I mean, rats were trying to get out. I mean. Having a good sleeping, sleeping, sleeping. Hmm. Now this is debated. Still, this is not a guarantee that it happened this way. There's a lot of argument as to whether or not the limite started as a Nazi project. And before I read what I'm about to read, you should know that the jury is still out as to the origins of thalidomide. That said, I'm now going to quote up from quote from a write up in by oncogene, the magazine of the International Oncology Network as part of the Physicians Weekly magazine Network quote in his book Hitler's. Laboratories, the Argentinian writer Carlos Dinapoli, states that he has discovered documents dated November 1944 from IG Farben which referred to a chemical agent with the same chemical formula as thalidomide. According to Dinapoli, IG Farben's director Fritz Fritz Termeer sent a memo to Karl Brandt, the US general who ran Hitler's euthanasia program, explaining that a drug with number 4589 with the same characteristics as thalidomide had been tested and was ready for use, according to documents discovered after World War Two. Mukhtar and Ambrose work worked under the supervision of Joseph. Mangala referred to compound 4589 being tested on female prisoners in Auschwitz. In these Auschwitz files, researchers discovered correspondence between the camp commander and Bayer Leverkusen, a part of IG Farben. The correspondence dealt with the sale of 150 female prisoners for experimental uses, with a view to the planned experiments of a new sleep inducing drug. We would appreciate it if you could place a number of prisoners at our disposal so there's real. Real compelling evidence that thalidomide was first experimented during the war on female slaves as a sleeping pill and that doctor Mukhtar and Doctor Ambrose were a part of those tests working under Joseph Mangala. Why were they women? Anything that's like women who then get go to sleep around. Men, especially. Nazis, don't like any of that. I mean there was a decent amount of rape in these places. I think it might also have. There's also a factor of like men are potentially more dangerous to keep his prisoners. You might want to just kill the man immediately or you're you're working them in. It's a labor camp, so you have them in doing physical labor. The women, you either kill them or you use their bodies for experiments and that was up to ******* #9 or whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. Mangala, yeah, sorry. I mean all of the Mangala. Ambrose. Uh, Mukhtar are probably all taking turns doing this. It's a thing doctors do, like. It's doctors making the selections in a lot of cases. Again, the complicity of physicians in the Third Reich is like an actual, incredibly important story because most of them just, like, agree to be part of the machinery of death. It's a real problem in medical ethics now. So there's a lot of reasons to believe. Like, obviously if you're green and tall, you don't want to say we know this is a great sedative because the doctors we hired tested it on enslaved. Jewish women and at Auschwitz, you don't want to be saying that that's not a good, not a good advertising campaign. So you want to lie and say, oh, it works on rats, let's test it on humans for totally the first time. This is the first time it's ever been tried on people. Now, there's other reasons to doubt Grunenthal's official story about the development of thalidomide. For one thing, their initial patent application in 1954 mentioned that the drug had already been tested on humans before official tests began. Historical documents showed that the company purchased the trade name that thalidomide was sold under Contergan, and presumably the drug itself from Sanofi, a French pharmaceutical company that was controlled by the Nazis during World War Two, quote Grunenthal also claimed to have done multiple independent. Animal experiment showing absolutely no mutagenic effects and no birth abnormalities. However, in the late 1960s, Grunenthal's documents regarding the history and development of the Polymide were subpoenaed for the civil actions against the company. It was reported that virtually all documents that showed where and when animal research as well as clinical studies on humans were conducted had been lost. So lot of reasons to suspect that this was developed in concentration camps and then its origin was hidden. But that might not be the worst part of thalidomide. Which we're about to get to the worst part of the limit. So, yeah anyway, it's not bad enough. I'm just like I'm not triggered and yet, you know we started off with, you know, killing babies and I was kind of triggered and I just, I don't know, I feel like you need to level up. Yeah we're we're we'll we'll we'll get the trigger. It's important to know, though, that there's a really good chance that Doctor Mukhtar, who worked under Joseph Mangala, had tested this drug initially in concentration camps and once he got Grunenthal to start testing the drug for widespread approval, he also had a vested interest in making sure it got approved and sold. Part of Doctor Mukhtar's agreement with the company gave him a share in the profits of every drug sold that he helped to develop. Whatever the truth of its origin, Grunenthal decided thalidomide held a lot of promise as an alternative to barbiturates. And barbiturates are your traditional sleeping pills in this era, and they're really bad. Not that they don't have any like they do, obviously they have medical uses, but they can kill your *** like people die from sleeping pills all the time, especially in this. Like, we've gotten a bit better at it now, but like barbiturates, number one can be very addictive and again can ******* kill you. So, and that's starting to be known in the 50s and early 60s, that like, oh, there's some real downsides to these sleeping pills. And so if you can make a sleeping pill that can't kill people, that's you make a ******** of money off that ****. And doctor Mukhtar basically was convinced Grunenthal, hey, we can sell sleeping pills that don't have dangerous side effects. And to make the case is a big order for a Nazi to be like, hey, Nazi. Try not to kill people. They're like, I want to and like, no, no, just just pull back on that. Almost. Kill them, don't kill them. Don't worry, he kills a lot more people. So I figure to make the case that polyamide was safe, Doctor Mukhtar's team fed increasingly absurd amounts of thalidomide to a variety of animals in an attempt to establish its LD 50. And the LD 50 is the dose at which a drug will kill 50% of test animals, right? It's generally just referred to as like, this is the potential fatal dose of a drug. Didn't know that. Very cruel. Yeah, I mean, you need to know it, right? It is. It's a horrible thing. But like, you have to know what is a lethal dose of a substance you're giving people. You know, you do need to have an idea. Yeah, no, of course, but 50 of them, or at least or half of at least 50%. Yeah. Because obviously everyone, like one person can take a dose of cyanide that will kill them and another person, like with medical treatment, could survive. There's never 100% with this kind of ****. It's like the same thing. Some people get bitten by rattlesnakes and recover. Some people die very quickly for a variety of reasons. Now with so yeah, Grunenthal testers try to find an LD50 for thalidomide, and they say we can't find it. It's impossible to kill animals with this stuff. There's a lot of debate as to whether or not those studies were valid, but that's what they say. So this. Really need humans. I mean, these rats and rabbits, they're great, but, you know, be really great humans. Well, they're more saying we can't kill animals with this, so people can take this and they won't OD. Yeah. Yep. There's no way to overdose on thalidomide, so we can sell it as, like, you can't die on this stuff. Like, all these other people are dying on barbiturates. So Grunenthal, when they've got this kind of establishment for how they're going to market, the limit proceeds to what was the second round of human trials, probably assuming they've done. Human trials and concentration camp inmates and this round of human studies was comparatively a lot more ethical. But it was still very problematic, perhaps due to the fact that Greenall's research division was run by Nazis. In Bonn, one doctor treated 40 children, many of whom were brain damaged, with huge doses of thalidomide. Over extended periods of time, some kids received 20 times the recommended dose. None of the children's parents were informed of the study. The tests showed that thalidomide was a very effective sedative, and a by effective I mean it killed 2. Babies. One of the babies had a congenital heart defect and one, a 3 month old, suffered heart failure. In addition, one other child went temporarily blind. The doctor conducting this study decided these side effects had nothing to do with thalidomide and gave an endorsement to Grunenthal that it was safe. That doesn't seem like good science to me, but I'm not a doctor. It seems like killing two out of 40 children is actually a pretty high death rate for a pill, but I don't, is it not? It's not half, though. It is not half. So it's safe. I guess it's OK. There were, of course a lot of positive tests of the drugs. A number of testers, particularly adults it was tested on, did rave about its efficacy as a sleep aid. It does. It's an effective like sedative and the fact that it had no hangover or other side effects. Some people say this and a number of doctors back it up and in adults it did seem to be pretty. Effective. But as this segment from the book Silent Shock makes clear, there were problems from the beginning. One doctor reported that he had dropped the drug because of absolute and tolerability. Among the side effects he noted was slight, slight paresthesia or tingling or burning sensation, often caused by nerve damage. Responding to this report, Grunenthal's Heinrich Mutter conceded in a letter on 3rd April 1956 that thalidomide seemed a very strong sedative which if used in high doses over a long period could cause disturbance in the nervous system such information. Was pushed under the rug or explained away doctor Mukhtar did such a good job of manufacturing consent that other doctors in Grunenthal thought thalidomide was safe. Some of his own staff members tried it and one gave it to his pregnant wife. The first of what would be 10s of thousands of thalidomide babies was born on Christmas Day 1956 without ears. In their early 1957 the drug went on sale across Europe under the name Contergan. Yeah, it went on sale after babies were born without ears. One baby could have been anything. Sometimes babies don't have ears. Look, who's to say? Who's to say it's gone among us? Yeah, it's God's will or not? Nazis will. But you know, either way, let's put it on the market. Now, you're saying also that Mokhtar is getting us a percentage of everything? Oh yeah, he gets a cut baby. Umm, so economic incentive, totally not a problem in the pharma industry. At all? No. To rush things out the door. No, it it was not a problem then and it's not a problem now. So vaccinated? OK Contergan, AKA Thalidomide, became a bestseller. It was helped along by a recent string of deaths and life altering injuries caused by barbiturates sleeping pills. Grunenthal's marketing campaign was based entirely around the fact that thalidomide, unlike those competing pills, was totally safe. It soon spread across the world, Michael Megasonic writes. It was this. This is on complete and unprecedented safety that allowed thalidomide to prosper in a crowded marketplace. The full page ads for Destival, which was its name in Australia, placed by distillers, which was the company that sold it there in the Medical Journal of Australia at a time a key information source for doctors illustrates the marketing line. A small child is standing on a stool, raiding the family medicine cabinet. The child has opened an unidentified bottle, and the reader correctly surmises that an enormous, potentially fatal overdose is about to occur. Thankfully, though, the advertisement can offer a happier ending. If the unnamed medicine is destival, there will be no tragedy. The child's life may depend on the safety of disproval an advertisement shouts consider the possible outcome in a case such as this. Had the bottle contained conventional barbiturate, doctors were urged year by year. The barbiturates claim amounting toll of childhood victims. Yet today it is simple to prescribe, a sedative and hypnotic that is both highly effective and outstandingly safe. This Deval thalidomide has been prescribed for over three years in Great Britain, where the accidental poisonings rate is notoriously high, but there is no case on record in which even gross. Overdoses of with distal has had harmful results. Put your mind at rest. Depend on the safety of distal they're literally advertising it by saying like, hey, your kids are gonna get into your medicine cabinet. If they eat your barbiturate sleeping pills, they're going to die. But they could take as much thalidomide as they would harmless thalidomide. What, you can give it to kids like candy? Yeah, you know, why don't you put them next to the candy? Just put them next to the coin in the Candy Bowl. It's the limit. It's safe. Look, put it stuff it in there. Teddy bears. They'll snuggle with it. NUM NUM NUM through the night. Yeah, put it in their bottle. Don't give him breast milk. Give him falita mide. It's got everything a baby needs. Harmless thalidomide so Grunenthal wasted no time in reaching out to thousands of doctors around the world in the first year in 1958. So it comes it goes on sale in 1957. In 1958, they placed 50 ads in medical journals and sent out more than 200,000 letters to doctors, plus 50,000 mailers to doctors and pharmacists. By early 1960, thalidomide was the best selling sleeping pill in Germany. Mass use led to more problems. Of course, it became very clear that thalidomide could cause a particularly horrible form of neuropathy. Or nerve pain. There was no treatment for it and the damage could linger for months after the last dose of thalidomide. Some people never recovered. 10s of thousands of Germans alone suffered long term nerve damage from the limite. This caused some doctors to suggest that the drug should be pulled from the cell shelves. These were serious injuries and no over the counter sleeping pill which thalidomide was, was worth that kind of risk. You could just buy this **** bro. Yeah. In response, green and tall did Nazi ****. They hired private detectives to spy on detractors, including. Doctors who complained about the drug they bribed and threatened lawsuits to suppress bad press. And of course they lied like a cheap rug. At no point did they consider doing anything but going full speed ahead with sales. How many pens did they have to buy off these doctors? How many free pens? You know, lunches like we, I've seen that today. But back then they are doing that. They're also, there's a lot of doctors that get tricked into doing giving them, like giving their own families thalidomide and a lot of doctors who work at Grunenthal, a lot of junior. Researchers at green and tall give thalidomide to their wives and there's birth defects like it's actually Grunenthal employees suffer horribly as a result of thalidomide. In 1958, a German doctor published a study on thalidomide use among breastfeeding women. He concluded that it was safe for them to use, although this doctor was very clear that this was only for breastfeeding women, not pregnant women. As quote, it is my fundamental outlook never to give mothers to be sleeping drugs or sedatives. It is an old fact of experience. Medicine that fundamentally mothers to be are not to be given barbiturates, opiates, sedatives or hypnotics because these substances can affect fetuses. So this doctor is just being like, hey, breastfeeding women sometimes have trouble sleeping. Is this safe for breastfeeding women? It is. And then he includes a long disclaimer saying not for pregnant women, don't give this to pregnant women, don't give any of this kind of **** to pregnant women. So Susan especially that like humans at small humans are still gestating. We're just like, that's all we're doing for like 2 years is still just. He's. I mean, I I don't know that his research was wrong on that. I haven't heard that it was bad for breastfeeding kids. It may not have crossed in that way. But that said, he was very clear that this is just for breastfeeding women. Grunenthal, though, sees this study and they read it as a green light to sell philomise to pregnant women in August of 1958, even though he supposedly said no, even though he went out of his way to say do not ******* give miss the pregnant women in August of 1958. They send out extracts of the study which don't include. That warning to more than 40,000 German doctors arguing that this proves the drug drug is quote harmless to mother and baby. So they cut out his warning and just throw in the parts of it that they can say no, it's it's great for babies that are that are great for fetuses. Give it to all the pregnant mothers you possibly can. Now, since many expectant mothers have difficulty sleeping, a lot of doctors started recommending this new pregnancy safe sleep aid to their patients. 10s of thousands of pregnant women and some 46 countries began taking thalidomide. Meanwhile, evidence of the drugs danger continued to mount. In early 1959, a doctor became pregnant and asked another Doctor Who worked for Grunenthal whether or not thalidomide was safe for her to take. The other doctor answered of course it is, and in January of 1960 the pregnant doctor gave birth to a child with malformations of the nose. Lips, ears, hands, and feet from silent shock quote another doctor's wife had a baby with shortened arms after her husband was told by Grunenthal that the medication would be perfectly safe if taken during pregnancy. Later, the woman pressed for a divorce, accusing her doctor husband of having been too gullible in Munich. Misses H fell pregnant in October 1960 and her husband, a general physician, asked a Grunenthal sales Rep if he could safely give his wife Contergan. Their response was boilerplate. Boilerplate contergan is totally non dangerous and frequently prescribed. Especially during pregnancies. In July 1961, Mrs H gave birth to a severely malformed baby. Her General practitioner husband believed Contergan was to blame. When he spoke with the prosecutor in 1963, he said he had thought he made his suspicions clear to agreement all sales Rep after the July 1961 birth, but could not recall the rep's name. So they're getting reports about this and they're not doing anything about it. Don't take Nazi meds, yeah. I mean, it is hard not to do that in Germany in this. You know? Exactly. And but yeah, I mean it, it's it's interesting because it it is all just like ohh many pharmaceutical companies are like operate in a very like. Yeah, we're just gonna push the hell out of this. And you know, I'm a few malformations, a few babies without ears, and we're gonna sweep that under the rug and keep on rolling. Some of the babies aren't gonna come out right. That's just the way it goes. But you're gonna sleep like a malformed baby. I'm so sorry. You also, can we just say, this is really resuscitating Ambien in my mind. Like someone you go on a rant about, you know, I don't know. So what, you're without lungs, you know, like, yeah, this makes Ambien just just come out swinging. Yeah, Ambien sounds a lot better than thalidomide, doesn't it? You know what is also better? Then Philip amide don't know where you're God? The products and services that support this podcast better than thalidomide. All of them. You know it'll put you to sleep like a baby, these products and services, as opposed to having you be born without lungs. Like a thalidomide baby, which is not as as desirable. Generally you want kids to have lungs. I'm not an expert. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the build to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for. None of that. For anyone who hates their phone Bill, Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for just $15.00 a month. Mint Mobile will give you the best rate whether you're buying one or for a family. And it meant. Families start at 2 lines. All plans come with unlimited talk and text, plus high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any mint mobile plan and keep your same phone number along with all your existing contacts. Just switch to Mint mobile and get premium wireless service starting at 15 bucks a month. Get premium wireless service from just $15.00 a month and no one expected plot twists at mintmobile.com/behind. That's mintmobile.com/behind. Seriously, you'll make your wallet very happy at Mint Mobile. Com slash behind my name is Erica Kelly and I am the host and creator of Southern Freight true crime. There are so many people that just have no idea about some injustices in the world and if you can give a voice to them you can create change. To be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with Spreaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always feel like an ambassador for speaker. But that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love. Spreaker from iheart this fall on revisionist history. Is there anything that we haven't talked about or or that I should have asked you or you'd like to add that seems relevant? You should have asked me why I'm missing fingers on my left hand. A story about sacrifice. I think his suffering drove him to try to alleviate suffering. And the shocking discovery I made where I faced the consequences of writing a book I thought would help people? Isn't that funny? It's not funny at all. It's depressing. Very depressing. Revisionist history is back with more. Listen to revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. I've never seen less enthusiasm for a great idea in my life. Ohh, we're back and we're talking about how many years are we talking about here that that it's been on the market. If it comes on the market in 57 in 1961, Grunenthal receives it and they they have started receiving information about about birth deformations and they're also the separate issue is nerve damage. So babies, you know, are being affected by this because they're pregnant. Moms are taking it, but also people taking it. Adults are, are are suffering serious. Nerve damage. One thalidomide victim, it was reported in 1961, had to be sent to a psychiatric hospital because they were just like driven out of their mind by severe nerve damage. Grunenthal began to suspect that rival drug companies were collecting case studies of thalidomide problems in order to damage sales. They hired a private detective to investigate, and he began spying on critics of the drug. He began became convinced that Merck was behind the whole thing. That same year, 1961, Grunenthal sent executives to East Berlin to try and arrange for thalidomide. Be sold in communist East Germany. Thankfully, the East German health authorities had their **** more on the ball than their capitalist cousins. They declared the drug way too dangerous and refused to import it, which is great. So the communists are like, no, this seems like a really horrible medicine. It seems like it's doing a lot of bad **** and we should not allow some Nazis. But we killed the we also killed more than y'all. So yeah, yeah, we are. We do not want your Nazi death pills, oddly enough. And this is one of the only times in history this will be the case. The United States of America makes the same call as Communist Germany. OK, we don't allow this. There are some thalidomide babies in the US some of this stuff gets over as like as testing pills, basically. But it is never sold widely in the United States and we owe this to an FDA official named Francis Kelsey. She was an extremely accomplished Doctor Who worked as an editor for the Journal of the American Medical Association before being hired by the FDA one month after starting the job, a salesman from a company affiliated with Green and Tall. Came to her door with marvelous stories of a super safe absolutely can't kill you sleep drug called thalidomide. Now, at this point in 1960, W Germans were consuming 1,000,000 doses of thalidomide per day. Grunenthal, yeah, Grunenthal and the American company they licensed with. We're looking at a fortune in potential profits if they could sell this in the United States. With so much money at stake and such widespread adoption overseas, US approval was seen as a formality. Obviously they're going to let us sell this over there and it would have been a formality. If not for Francis Kelsey's quote from the University of Chicago. Kelsey insisted on hard evidence to back the salesman's claims for the drug safety, and refused to be browbeaten after the initial. In the initial application, Kelsey noted the reliance on anecdotal testimony in place of clinical data. She ran it by her husband, who then worked as a pharmacologist at the National Institutes of Health. One section of the submission he branded an interesting collection of meaningless pseudo scientific jargon, apparently intended to impress chemically unsophisticated readers. Elsewhere, he noted the very unusual. Claimed that thalidomide has no lethal dose. No other substance can make that claim, he wrote. Kelsey's concerns escalated when, in February 1961, she saw a letter from a physician in the British Medical Journal reporting cases of peripheral, peripheral neuritis, nerve damage in the hands and feet among patients he treated with thalidomide. She insisted that the burden of proof was on Grunenthal to show their drug was safe, and refused to approve the drug unless they could do that. The sales Rep, enraged, called Kelsey's boss, Ralph Smith, and said that he that he considered the denial letter she'd sent him. Libellus like this is libel for her to say that the lid amide isn't safe. Yeah. Haven't you seen her ads? Did you see the child that kid got in all kinds of thalidomide and look at this. Look at this smile. Look how happy he is. Now this the thalidomide Rep asks the like asks Dr Kelsey's boss at the FDA. Are you really going to back with this woman says and not let a self order mind and to to his credit her boss is like, yes, of course I am. She's a very accomplished Dr. She's right. So you know, we hadn't though. It's just so scary that like ohh history and the lives of so many children in the like born in the 60s would have been at risk had like, yeah, some boss been like, you know? Sort of, yeah. Baited into that. Like, oh, she's just a chick. Like, yeah, you're right, man. Let's go forward. And I think in like the 80s, she gets some major national award for saving the country from Philomise. Like, no, she's she's like, it really did come down to this one woman being like, seems like everything you're saying is a lie. And this is extremely dangerous. No, thank you. And I don't know as much about the story in East Germany, but clearly there were people like her over there being like, no, this seems like a horrible thing, but it's interesting. Allow into our. Yeah. And it's interesting. Because she's like, OK, the literature and the things you provided all are really suss. And so you have to wonder like just how like, like fawning and glorious they were like, it will make the strong stronger and the weak, well, it'll kill them. But it's yeah, you know, they deserved it anyway. If you can't survive, you know, like, like what kind of weird overzealous, you know, trial language where they using, I mean, they're literally saying there's no fatal dose of this stuff which. Doctor Kelsey's husband is like, well, that's not true of anything. Everything has a fatal dose. Like, they're clearly did not do proper research if they're saying **** like that. So the company, the US company that partners with Grunenthal, and this keeps trying to get FDA approval for thalidomide. But Doctor Kelsey successfully stymies every effort, and it's a good thing she did. In February of 1961, a scientist at a US firm partnered with Grunenthal had the brilliant idea that since thalidomide was a sedative, it might stop women from miscarrying their babies. Now this is there's a lot of sexism, sexism based into why he thought this. He believed that miscarriages were caused by women, quote, becoming emotional about their pregnancies and that quote. Habitual eborders could benefit from Philip amide so that's an idea of how it would have been sold in the US is like, this will stop you from having spontaneous miscarriages. Take all the valid amide you can. It'll make sure your babies come out good. Knew that. Like, you know that that's sort of like when you immediately said that it started being prescribed to pregnant women who couldn't, who had trouble sleeping. It's like, OK, well, you gotta a lot of sexist doctors walking them down that primrose path of like, oh, you're having you listen, little lady, you've got a little too many questions about. Gestating him. A life inside of you. You're gonna need to go. Night. Night? Yeah, you're gonna need to. Why don't you just sleep through the next couple of months? Here's a drug with no consequences. By late 1961, the news had filled with hundreds of stories of infants born with severe deformations. Some had flippers for hands, others were missing their legs and pelvis entirely. And some of these, like, honestly, like the the the pictures that people freak out over are these kids with, like, Flipper hands. That's the best case, because a lot of those kids are able to grow up and live normal lives, right? They have to do some accommodations, but there's kids born. Without legs and pelvis is just no bottom half. There's kids born missing eyes and born without with major internal malformations that make them that either kill them outright or make an impact like. The best case scenario is that like yeah, your hands come out a little bit different but you're able to exist in like, grow and live as a person. A lot of kids are born without again without like organs that they need to survive. Grooming Grunenthal started, went on and like marketed prosthetics. Hey, we've got ears. No, it's it's thankfully not that story, but it is that sad. So the reports had started to flood in by late 1960, and we know that doctor Mukhtar personally was aware of at least 150 cases by that date. When one British distributor of the drug complained to him, he responded, hey, chill out, you're making money. Like don't worry that some kids are coming out without lungs, worry about how much money you're about to make. The first doctor to publicly expose thalidomide and get through Grunenthal spies and PR flacks was an Australian doctor named William McBride. In 1961 he published a letter in The Lancet laying out a clear connection between thalidomide and birth defects. This led to massive public outcry, which was helped along by the thousands of children with birth defects that started popping up on the front page of newspapers. Grunenthal withdrew the drug on November 26th, 1961. We don't know how many babies were born with thalidomide damage. Untold numbers some. Estimates say 50,000 of women aborted their fetuses when the news broke. They're just like, well, I've been taking the limit. I don't. Wow, risk. Yeah, we know. At least 2000 babies died, as in were born and couldn't survive because they didn't have things that people need as a result of thalidomide. At least 2000 and another 10,000 worldwide were born with birth defects. The real numbers for both may be much higher. It was sold in some places for years after it got pulled out of others, including like Argentina. Kept selling, I think, until like the 90s. There was, of course, a massive lawsuit 9 Grunenthal employee and it's there are some uses for it, like climate is prescribed today in very specific cases. It has some medicinal cases, but not like it. It's not like a sleep aid. How did it? How did we get to Billy Joel here, though? There's just a line and one of his songs about children of thalidomide. It's a big story. All of these pictures of babies with different, you know, very like, like people considering there be gruesome deformations. These pictures are just on the front page of newspapers. It's like, it's a it's a huge this is the stuff that, like, the National Enquirer, just like, has on file. Like, yeah, let's put another deformed baby on the if we need, sales are down. There's a lot of exploitative aspects to this, but obviously it is a massive story. And there was a major lawsuit 9 Grunenthal employees were charged with intent to commit bodily harm and involuntary manslaughter. The prosecution gathered huge amounts of data, more than 5000 case histories that took six years to analyze, hundreds of witnesses and 70,000. Pages of evidence were gathered. Among other things, the prosecution found a Grunenthal Doctor Who testified that he'd seen mock up packaging for the drug with warning not for pregnant women labels that executives at the company had nixed so that they could sell more thalidomide to pregnant women. One of the Grunenthal lawyers was a fellow named Doctor, Joseph Neuberger. In November of 1966, which is a couple of years into the whole trial process, he was made Minister of Justice for the German state, where the trial took place. Three days before he took office, he wrote to the prosecutors. I would be personally obliged for a rapid execution, IE I would appreciate it if you would end the trial before we actually have to go to court over this thing. So they're doing like discovery and whatnot. He doesn't want there to be a real trial quote from the Guardian. The last thing he did in the afternoon of the day he was sworn in was meet with the prosecution in Aachen again. He asked them to stop action against Werts. He told them he was resigning as a solicitor for warts on becoming Minister of Justice. But then he discussed the case again and repeated his claims. His personal interest in defending words in the company persisted. Ads did his company's. Representation. In the end, prosecutors met with defense lawyers, the Grunenthal corporate board, and no representatives of thalidomide victims. They worked out an agreement whereby the company paid what worked out to a couple $1000 per victim, and all victims agreed never to sue again. And the state agreed that no Grunenthal employees would be charged with anything. They could have had the rockovich on this. Yeah, where was the German rock? And the the judges are angry about this. They write in their decision that had this gone all the way through trial, multiple Grunenthal employees, including Doctor Mukhtar, would have been sent to prison, that, like, they were guilty this agreement. Families is kind of ******. They just needed rock. Yeah. I'm saying like where, you know, she we just needed some like, you know, like Mali redhead and a bustier to come in and be like, your family deserves justice and people have been like, wow, she's hot and right. Yeah. Anyway, alas, that is not what goes down. Instead, they get off pretty much Scott free. It is worth noting what an outrageous profit former Nazi Heinrich Mutter made on thalidomide between 1952 and 1961. His salary. Was only 14,400 marks per year. In 1957, the Earth Alumide went on sale. He received a bonus based on his share of sales of 160,000 marks. In 1959, he received a 200,000 mark bonus. In 1961, his bonus was 325,000 marks. Green and tall is still a very profitable company today. They were eventually shamed into throwing another pittance at thalidomide victims in like, 2020. That same year. Yeah, that same year they made a public apology to apology to the victims of their drug, and the CEO unveiled a bronze statue of a limbless child in front of their headquarters. I know it's like the most ****** ** part of it. Like, why would you think that would help? We took all those heinous photos. And we just enshrined it and go, and it's there forever. There's like flip flipper kid that's like, that is this will make it right. Like, it's so funny. It's like a weird, like attempt at becoming woke for a pharma company to, like, lean into this, the birth defects that they cause. Like, no, dude, you're not like, yay, disability rights, ************. You did this. You can't just champion children who don't have ears now, like, did. It's awesome. And it's I need to read you an excerpt from his apology because it's sure we've heard a lot of bad apologies the last couple of years. This might be the worst. This might be the worst apology. On Apple notes, we ask for forgiveness that for nearly 50 years we didn't find a way of reaching out to you. From human being to human being. We ask that you regard our long silence as a sign of the shock that your fate caused in us. We wish that the phillida my tragedy had never we didn't get. We. We denied you money and fought to make it illegal for you to sue us because we were so shocked at how badly we'd ****** you up. That's all it. Because we were so scared of what we did to you that we couldn't do anything right to make it right. Traumatized by the trauma. We're victims, too. We're victims by how scary you look, because of the things we did, because you're like, so grown masic apology. Incredible apology. Ohh, took me at least a ***** ** ****. Pull our jaws off the ground once we saw well what you look like, like 60 years actually. Oh my God. OK, so was there a lot of money are we talking about the company should be dissolved for the amount? I mean I agree I'm a big believer that when companies do stuff like this and this should be this should have been the case for cigarette companies. You know, when it was found. That they've done all the ****** ** ****. It should be the case for ExxonMobil and Shell and BP. Monsanto find? Yeah. Monsanto. Well, yeah, and *******. Sackler the Sackler Purdue Pharmaceuticals that the actual right punishment in addition to charges against the individuals you you charge the company. Since corporations are human beings you charge them with murder and you execute them and and that means you like literally dissolve and destroy the there's one benefit to corporations being human being. Why not? Yeah, that they can be executed. I 100%. I think the Grunenthal Corporation should have been dragged out behind his shed and shot with a bolt gun. I have. I it's hard for me to believe that this was the only medicine they marketed under false pretenses that killed people or led to horrible birth defects. I mean, I think there's other complaints about the company, but yeah, it's hard to be up on the same level as thalidomide, which is considered to be like one of the great up until ******* oxy was like the number one pharmaceutical disaster. And and and history. Pretty much. Wow, it's good. **** that's rich. Anyway. Brought to you by Ambien. Look, ambien? It's not the lid amide. You you will go on a sleepwalking rage about, I don't know, lizard people. But look, it's not the little mind. It'll be funny for your friends. That's the terrible thing, isn't it? So no one saw anymore four year sentences. No, no, nobody, nobody went to prison. As a result of this, doctor Mukhtar retired wealthy, as did the rest of the Nazis who worked there. The good die young. The old, yeah, the bad guy. Very, very old. The good die young because they're born without ******* crucial organs as a result of thalidomide poisoning and the full circle on Nazis killing babies is. I mean, yeah. It's incredible in this story. You just do. Yep. Classic Nazis. Well, Francesca, that's gonna do it for us here at behind the ******** today. Thank you so much, Robert. Now I'm gonna go Google these images of children and. Cry myself to sleep. I mean it's it's not great. I never. I mean because like a lot to be quite frank the I don't know the the birth defects or whatever that that go viral. Like people who don't have thalidomide get the stuff like that as well. The thing that's particularly number one that's horrible is that these wouldn't have happened without thalidomide as opposed to just being some quirk of of genetics that makes it happen. But the other thing is that like a lot of kids aren't able to live because they're born without things that they need to live. It's like one thing is like, yeah your hands are different. We can figure out ways to. To make that work or like you, you don't have, you know, you don't have all of your legs. We can figure out ways for you to live a full life. If you're born without like lungs and **** it's more difficult. There's not really like a an easy way to deal with that like and that's in addition to the fact that thalidomide, which is a **** load of kids who would not have been born with any sort of of differences or difficulties if they had this whole story is very like it is like if you give a mouse a cookie, but it's more like if you hire A Nazi scientist. Yeah. If you hire Nazi scientists, they will do Nazi. She's probably going to do Nazi ****. And then sort of because they are, it's, I mean, look, very Nazis. Yeah. What did you expect? No, we yeah, that's exactly the musical sting for thalidomide. And. We should. I mean it. It should be like, this is definitely the next chapter of like, understanding the Holocaust is also understanding what happens when you hire the people that did the Holocaust to do other things, which is why they all should have been tossed into a mass grave after being shot in the face. Ohh, you worked for the you worked with the US in any capacity? Off you go. Time to kill you. Unless you're like one of the 9S guys who were secretly helping concentration camp inmates. There were a few of those dudes. Their stories are important. But unless you're one of those, like, again, like, 9 dudes, off you go, put a bullet in your head, kill them all. Exactly right. It's like, if you're going to be part of a murderous regime, work your way up, bro, because you know, if you're successful enough again, you're gonna you're gonna land on your feet. I mean, the lesson here is you want to be mid level when you're when you're part of an organization that commits unprecedented war crimes, you want to be in the middle. You want to be like the nugget center in the Snickers of crimes against humanity. Because then you don't. Everyone knows the Mangola peanut. Everybody out like Mangle is a peanut. You're like, you're definitely gonna get it was a peanut. Yeah, yeah. ******* I. Aikman is a peanut, right? The ****? Israel went after him. Like we spent so much money catching Eichmann. Nobody is going after Doctor Mukhtar cause he's again nicely mid level. That's where you wanna be, baby. Evil nugget. Yeah. Yeah. Again, some advice to our listeners who are considering taking part in. A genocidal death regime. Stick to the middle, baby. That's the safe place. The squeaky wheel occasionally gets hung after a war crimes tribunal. That's that's the lesson here. Or occasionally, honestly, not that often. Probably fine if you're at the top of it, either. We do not as a species, like punishing war criminals. So that's good. That is good. This has been. This has been fascinating. I've learned a lot. I got to sing a children's song. Thank you, Robert. You did. You did. So yeah. My God. What are you going to plug the Situation Room podcast for? Yeah. Weekly little rundown of the news with some jokes. And I love you. Mark, then, this podcast. Low bar. Yeah, that's true of most podcasts. Yeah. I'm such a fan, Robert. And it was so good to be on, though. Man, someone's gotta do. Thank you for coming on. We have done a lot of horrible crimes against babies episodes recently, so thanks for soldiers. Arma baby y'all. Well, OK, look, you have kids, right? They're going to find a way to have, like, a toy gun. Kids. Find a way into your give some real guns and have them fight your wars. Yeah, just make use out all I'm saying, right? You're leaving money on the table if you're not weaponizing your children. That's all I'm saying far right already has caught on to that. Like, I know, I know half of the people official portion clinics with bloody fetus signs are actual fetuses themselves. They are babies doing their parents work. Yes, I'm more mean. Like an army of babies. To do like, retribution on Nazis and Nazi profiteers, yeah. If you could train a baby to kill, they could get into like, they could crawl through crawl spaces really easily. They can get into areas full size adults can't, and they're harder to hit if you're shooting back at them. I think there's a lot of untapped potential in in. So he's like, we got to edit a child. Yeah, we should probably probably call it for the week, but if you have, if you're a billionaire listening to this and you want to invest in my private military contracting corporation that only hires children at the age of nine, hit me up. That Blackwater types, that's what we're calling it. Lil, Lil Blackwater. Little black water, little Blackwater. Blackwater. But cute. Yeah. Little Halliburton. Yeah. Why not just little versions of all the little Raytheon Babe Theon in the whole figures. Yes, we'll work it out. We'll work it out. All right. This has been behind the ********. Thank you. Francesca, check out the situation room. Check out my novel at ATR book.com. It's free. Yeah, my kittens are crying in the background. Yeah, well, they're not going to get it because I'm bad. And seeing. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's SPREAKE. Or.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioural discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Life on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kabayel Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and I said Dominicana myself. I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books through your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters. The underground wherever you get your podcasts.