There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
Sat, 18 Feb 2023 05:01
All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
In 2018, it was reported there was a dramatic rise in the number of cases of demonic possession. For many of the most disturbing cases, Father Carlos Martins was often summoned. I have seen things. Very evil things. I order you to go in the name of Christ. I'm not leaving. We've been together too long. It's me. Listen to the Exorcist files on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Paper Ghost is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal unsolved murder of Tammy Zawiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning, she'll be back. She'll be back. We had no clue where she was. They didn't know where to begin to look. Tammy's story shocked the nation. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows. I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Togin. We know you've been pining for a brand new podcast hosted by a beloved television icon. And largely unknown talk radio hosts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote that. Pine no more because we're the hosts of really no really. The funny informative show that seeks the answers to things that make us say, really, no, really, you'll lay off your learn and we'll get paid. It's really no really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden on the iHeart Radio app on Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts. And anybody who uses the word pining, let me know because I don't think it's very good. It's the middle ages. Very common. Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here. And I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch. If you want, if you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. And eight a.m. Wednesday, January 18th, a forest defender who went by Tortegita sent out a text message that read, morning raid, please help. Just minutes prior, a multi-agency coalition of heavily armed law enforcement officers led by the Georgia State Patrol began a raid on the Wallani forest in southeast Atlanta. Encampments have sprung up throughout the forest since November of 2021 in protest and militant opposition to a proposed, militarized police training facility with a mox city to practice combating civil unrest in the wake of 2020. The corporate funded Atlanta Police Foundation seeks to control over 300 acres of the Wallani or South River forest to construct this sprawling state of the art police compound with a starting budget of $90 million for its first phase of construction. The police raid on January 18th, 2023 started off pretty similar to previous raids that had taken place in the prior months. But for the Georgia State Patrol, seemingly it was their first time leading such a raid in the woods. Police shut down the parking lot at Entrenchment Creek Park and nearby streets before entering the tree line with guns drawn. Within the first hour, SWAT teams arrested two people in the woods and destroyed multiple tents, and then shortly after 9am, forest defenders in the woods reported hearing a rapid sequence of about a dozen gunshots. Quickly news spread that Georgia State Patrol officers shot and killed a protester in the woods who was defending the forest, and that a state trooper was being sent to a great hospital with a bullet wound. After the gunshots rang in the air, police were quick to publicize a palatable sequence of events depicting an exchange of gunfire. Rather predictably, the police claimed that the deceased forest defender had surprised the armored SWAT team and fired first. This is Peter, a forest defender I talked with a few days after the shooting. So luckily I was in the woods on that day. Just an o' whim, I decided to stay in town. The day of the shooting was really jarring. Trying to figure out who was safe and who was unaccounted for was like the main thing on my mind for most of the day. And by the afternoon, I realized that it was probably tort. The last message that they sent was at 8am saying morning raid, please help. Um, and the shooting was at 9am. It was a weird space to be in, of knowing that it was likely tortigated that had died, but not being able to grieve yet because not really having confirmation. The only eyewitnesses were the police, and then all the other witnesses just like heard noises. In contradiction to the exchange of gunfire narrative, activists on the ground reported hearing a single burst of gunfire and suspected that the injured trooper was hit by friendly fire and cautioned against taking police narrative as fact due to cops track record of lying about police killings and covering for fellow officers. Here's Sam from the Atlanta Community Press Collective for more information about the sequence of events that day. We know from speaking to people who were in the area on that day that PD, the various police agencies that were involved in the raid began the operation around maybe 730 or 8 records show that two people were arrested, maybe 30 to 40 minutes before tort was shot. There was shot around 9am. Some of our sources that were in the woods at the time say they only heard like one, I guess you could call it a volley of gunfire followed by a large boom. You can speculate a lot about those statements, but they were pretty independent. They were almost all identical and independent of each other. We know that it's hard to talk about. It wasn't until late into the night that people in the movement were able to confirm that the person killed by the Georgia State Patrol was Manuel Taran, also known by their forest name Tortegita, which means little turtle. Tortegita was a young queer afro of an Iswalen 26 year old forest defender, described by friends and loved ones as your friendly neighborhood anarchist, as a kind, earnest fierce, welcoming, funny, exceedingly helpful, and brave person. They were an artist, an urban farmer, a trained street medic, and heavily involved in mutual aid all across the south. This could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis or just, just, Gare. After checking in with friends and various people I know in the movement, I made my way down to Atlanta late Wednesday night. I've been reporting on and writing about the defend the forest and stop cop city movement since summer of 2021. Last year in 2022, I put out around six hours of audio related to the forest encampments, protests, organizing, weeks of action, and the forgotten history of the prison farm that operated on the land cop city is slated to be built on. But these new episodes serve as a follow up to the two part series from last May titled on the ground at defend the Atlanta forest. But the various updates put out since then will certainly help fill in the gaps. This four part series will feature interviews with forest defenders, audio clips from on the ground in Atlanta, and accounts on what's changed the past few months. Episode 1, which you're listening to right now, will largely cover the events around the shooting itself. Episode 2 will get into who Tortugita was as a person, and the stories about them from friends and comrades. Episode 3 and 4 will cover protests in the wake of the police killing, state repression, and how the movement might evolve going forward. Due to increasing state repression, we will be using a mix of voice distortion and re-dubbed voice replacement for some of the interviews and discussions I had with forest defenders on the ground in Atlanta. Speaking of, the next forest defender you're going to hear from is cricket, talking about their experiences, the day of the shooting. God, I mean, I can only obviously only speak for myself. For me, it was terrifying. We had obviously already lived through the raid in December, but when we heard someone had been shot and killed, it was terrifying. In part, because of the complete lack of information, we had so few details for so long, and it wasn't, at least for me, it wasn't until the following day that I found out that it was tort. And it was just devastating. It felt like the world stopped and then kept going, but it shouldn't have. It felt like it should have stayed stopped. It shouldn't have kept turning. After the deadly shooting in the morning, the police continued their multi-agency raid of the Wallani forest in a pretty regular fashion, with cops reportedly firing pepperballs at people up in tree houses and making arrests throughout the day into the night and even the next morning. I think a total of seven folks were arrested in the forest that day. It might have been six arrested on the day to work died, and then one person remained the last tree sitter. The last person arrested in the deadly police raid was up in the trees overnight and surrounded by police for about 20 hours straight. All seven people arrested in the forest were charged with criminal trespassing and domestic terrorism. There was one person who remained in a tree set, because we had some communication with them throughout the night. They were just like perched in their climbing rig in a tree for about 12 hours until a little after sunrise when DeCab County SWOT moved in and took them into custody, I guess you could say, as they were trying to repel back up the tree. They had been in the tree pretty much the whole day and then all night. They ran out of food and water. I think sometime after nightfall and then after dark, they were turning their phone on and off to conserve battery. It was a little sporadic. They were able to send us some pictures of two cops standing in a platform of like a truck you would use to work on a telephone pole. They both had the SWOT operator helmets on and one of them had a long end. Then later on in the evening, four or five police cars just backed up to the tree and just surrounded the tree and shown their spotlights up in the tree. They didn't, the cops didn't, they were there overnight, they didn't say anything. They were just waiting. They were just waiting for the sun to come up so SWOT could move in. The night of the shooting, before we even knew who was killed, there was a small vigil turned to March in the little five points neighborhood of Atlanta. The first 24 hours after the shooting were extremely hectic as many people were not even sure who the police had killed. Obviously, the first thing on everyone's mind was who was killed. By late Wednesday night, some folks that held the source are reporting came to us saying that they believed it was this person, that they believed it was tort. A lot of people's friend was just murdered by the police and folks wanted to get ahead of the police narrative. And as a community press collective, of course, we wanted to support the community in that. So we just immediately offered to post whatever, um, torts family and I believe they're their partner consented to. That was the primary thing once the community had kind of definitively identified that it was tort was obtaining consent from from those closest to tort to publish their name. Any pictures, details and we wanted to give people a way to help tell everyone who was about to be paying a lot of attention to the story who tort actually was and not who the police would like people to think tort was. The agencies were swift in their attempts to control the narrative surrounding the deadly raid hours after the killing the Georgia Bureau of investigation set up a press conference as the raid was very much still ongoing. First a GBI spokesperson explained the purpose of the raid. The operations goal is to secure the site of the future city of Atlanta Public Safety training center. Next GBI director Mike register gave his account of the days events so far. As you are aware a few weeks ago several individuals were arrested for domestic terrorism in the area around the future site of the public safety training facility. This morning the GBI with other local state law enforcement agencies such as the cab PD Atlanta PD the Georgia State Patrol and Georgia DNR conducted a plan clearing operation to remove them individuals who were illegally occupying the area. At approximately nine o'clock this morning his law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property and individual without warning shot a Georgia State Patrol trooper. Other law enforcement personnel returned fire and self defense and evacuated the trooper to a safe area. The individual who fired upon law enforcement and shot the trooper was killed in the exchange of gunfire. The GBI is working the officer involved shooting and the investigation is still active and fluid. The circumstances was an individual confronted law enforcement and I don't think that he was seen until he fired. I'm not sure right. Here that day a GBI statement claimed that officers located toward inside a tent in the woods and that they did not comply with verbal commands from law enforcement officers. The day after the shooting the Georgia Bureau of Investigation also announced that there is no body cam footage of the incident. They also claimed that 25 campsites were located and removed Wednesday and that quote, mortar style fireworks, edged weapons, pellet rifles, gas masks and a blowtorch were recovered. After people pointed out that the list of recovered items was absent any firearms, the next day the GBI released a photo of a 9mm handgun allegedly found at the scene of the shooting. It was the only firearm police claimed they found in their extensive sweep of the forest. The GBI has been as the independent agency investigating all of this has changed their story a little bit which it was a breaking news story. I think they first went before the cameras at noon when it happened at 9am not to grant the police any kind of play at all because fuck them. But it was a rapidly evolving situation as they say. That said the story changed kind of dramatically over the first few days. They released an initial list of items that had recovered but it didn't mention a gun. And then when the community kind of said, hey, you said, torch shot this trooper, where's the gun? Then a gun was produced. And when people still didn't believe it, the GBI said that they had a bill of sale for the gun. The GBI and Georgia State Patrol have also come out and said that they won't release the identity of the trooper for concerns about their safety. Results from an independent autopsy were released on February 3rd. It found 13 gunshot wounds. Attached to the report was a statement from Tortugeta's family of which I will read. And the GBI has claimed that many shot an officer and that the bullet matches the gun possessed by Manny. But even if that is true, there are still many unanswered questions. The GBI has selectively released information about Manny's death, as civil rights attorney Jeff Slepovitz. They claim Manny failed to follow orders. What orders? The GBI has not talked about the fact that Manny faced a firing squad when those shots were fired or who fired them. While the GBI has publicly stated there is no body camera footage of the shooting, it has not stated whether there is any audio or other video from other sources, such as aerial drones or helicopters that were used during the time of the incident. The family has contacted the GBI and specifically requested that it released whatever audio and video exists of the incident or any other information that would shed light on what happened. Many evidence, even if it is only an audio recording, will help the family piece together what happened on the morning of January 18th. This information is critical and it is being withheld. Said Brian Spears, a civil rights attorney with nearly five decades of experience litigating police shootings. Unquote. Whatever you believe about the exact series of events that led to Tord's death, personally, I doubt that will ever know what happened for sure. But regardless, the killing of a forced offender at the hands of police, coupled with the domestic terrorism charges, marks a significant escalation in the fight against cop city. And even environmental activism in this country at large, as this seems to be the first killing of an environmental protester by U.S. law enforcement. As horrific as this escalation is, it is not out of the blue as one might think. All the way back in May of 2022, police were already talking on scanners about using deadly force against stop cop city protesters. Oh yeah, right? How old you deadly for? I'm counting. So last time I was in the woods for a decent amount of time was last spring, last summer. How is... In what ways have living in the woods changed since then? What sort of developments has there been? Well, one thing that's changed in the day-to-day life in the woods in the past several months is that the raids by the police have been more thorough. And so it's required a lot of more vigilance to live in the woods and a lot more being aware of places to run and hide and escape routes. The past few months, police raids have been increasingly violent and destructive. From the demolition of the gazebo in Wollani People's Park to the flattening of community gardens and the trashing of makeshift cafes and kitchens within the forest. Using consistently escalated violent tactics, police have routinely attacked protesters with chemical weapons and rubber bullets, have cut tree limbs and safety lines from under them and reportedly threatened lethal force. In targeting peaceful people who were sitting in trees or walking through the public park. In an article for the bitter satherner, an unnamed tree-sitter spoke about a police raid in September of 2022, where they described their interactions with law enforcement as such. Quote, they threatened to shoot me. They didn't draw their guns, but they talked about it. Several showed their sidearms while walking eyes with me. They very easily could have killed my friend in the other tree-sitter. It was fucking nuts. And here's a bit from Peter again. Ever since the beginning, it's been on my mind that there's a possibility of people dying in the woods. Ever since I started living in the woods, beginning of the encampments, it was just something that kept coming up into my mind as a possibility. I think before this happened though, people were generally under the impression that the police wouldn't murder forest offenders because it would look bad for them. Just a month prior to the deadly January raid, another police raid took place a couple weeks before Christmas, which resulted in the first domestic terrorism charges being levied against people arrested near the forest. In the aftermath of this raid, a spokesperson for the Atlanta Solidarity Fund talked about the developing pattern of police escalation against the protest movement, and warned that steadily increasing police repression would lead to protesters being killed. And it's clear that if the public doesn't respond, if the public doesn't do something about this, that escalation is going to continue. Are we going to end up in a situation where the police are murdering protesters in order to advance not public safety, but their particular political agenda in building cops city? The use of inflated charges like domestic terrorism not only make life for the people charged, a living hell, it also lays the narrative groundwork to justify extreme physical escalations of force and increasingly brutal crackdowns. Take it from the GBI director himself. As director of aisle said, I'm director of my register at the GBI, and over the last several months, law enforcement and portions of our community have experienced growing criminal behavior and terroristic acts committed by individuals and groups concerning the building of Atlanta's new public safety training center. These individuals and groups have attempted to disguise their activities as being protest against the building of this facility. I'm going to read a short quote from an article for the inhabit territories newsletter that sums this up nicely. But the violent escalation which led to this murder comes during increased and coordinated repression against the movement to defend the Atlanta forest where the movement has built a diverse and welcoming community through years of organizing. The police have used every tactic to badmouth, harass, threaten, surveil, criminalize and attack participants. One of the force defenders I spoke with who goes by NOAA talked about coming to terms with something that everyone kind of knew was a possibility, but still had this element of shock and disbelief. I think it was really shocking. I think any time you introduce police, in a situation you have the possibility of somebody dying, that's what cops do, they murder with impunity. So I think like anybody who is out in the forest, anybody who's been timing around activism against the police knows that this is like a thing that can happen to people fighting against various types of state power, but it was really really shocking. I think every moment was kind of a loss. Personally, I mean, it's just kind of like, I saw it with it for a really long time. It was just kind of like, there was an area of disbelief to it just kind of knowing that these were the people we were fighting against and this is the type of thing that they're capable of, but it's being very sharp and really scary that this is where we were. That the police were now killing activists and it all likely had gone to go away with it. It was a really terrifying implication for the future of the New York Times, for the future of all social spread less than the US. Following news of the shooting, the Atlanta Solidarity Fund, which provides bail and legal assistance to political prisoners, protesters and activists, put out a statement saying, quote, Georgia State Patrol's story is suspect. They've released few details. We are concerned a police cover-up could be underway. We are preparing a legal team to investigate and pursue a wrongful death suit. Here's cricket again talking about the trustworthiness of the official information being released about the shooting. And I mean, we still have so little information. The information that we do have is so tainted. It's so untrustworthy that it doesn't actually feel like information at all. It doesn't feel like information we can trust. That's sort of the long and short of it. Last month, over 1,300 climate justice and racial justice groups from across the United States joined Atlanta residents and community organizations in calling for an independent investigation into the killing of Tortiquita. And any police shooting, you'd like to see an independent investigation because how can you let the person who shot the gun investigate the crime, right? So it was a pretty easy thing to call for, but especially given the inconsistencies in everyone's story. The GBI has changed a couple times like the sequence of events. And that first, like, tort surprised them. Then they surprised tort. Then tort was an attempt. The narrative has changed a couple times. GSP, Georgia State Patrol also does not wear body cams. And that's just a day-to-day thing for them. I hate to say it, but that's not something they did specifically for this raid just to screw the movement over. It's actually the pretty well-known issue in the state. There were few little wear body cams. Good, so how many people they kill every year? There has come a day that APD says that they have body cams after the incident. Yes. We know the raid was kind of a joint operation between Georgia Bureau of investigation, in Georgia State Patrol, a late-applyce department, de-Cab County Police Department, and some other state agencies. Georgia State Patrol seems to have been the ones in the immediate area when it seems to have been a trooper that shot tort. Atlanta police first came out and said that there was nobody cam footage that they weren't there. And it seems to be true that they weren't in the immediate area when the shot was fired, but they kind of later had to correct themselves and say, well, we have body cam of the incident, but we're not going to release it. Like of the incident itself or like during the time of the incident? Yes. Of what their officers were doing in the part of the raid. They were enacting wind to a shot. I have seen claims from both local media and law enforcement that the GBI investigation does qualify as independent. Using the GBI's investigation into the actions of the Georgia State Patrol as this separate non-biased operation, despite the GBI being fellow participants in the deadly raid. As an interesting little side note, the Georgia State Patrol and the Bureau of investigation began in the late 1930s as two branches of the same agency, the Georgia Department of Public Safety. So the standard in the state, I'm sure a lot of places when a person is shot by the police, you get a supposedly independent agency to review it in Georgia. It's usually the Georgia Bureau of investigation. But the GBI was a participant in the raid. The GBI has been involved in, the GBI has been present for several forest raids. The NARCRA's requests show that they've been involved in emails and conversations about the forest for quite some time now. We know their agents were on scene, more probably in the woods, went toward with shot. In addition to that, they're both state agencies. In addition to that, they're still police. Police are going to cover for each other. We know this by now. A day after the shooting, the Georgia Bureau of investigation stated that there was no body cam footage of the incident. But open records requests were filed asking for body cam footage from the forest around the time of the incident, not only from the state patrol, but also from the Atlanta and Decap County police departments. Two days after the police killing, an Atlanta PD spokesperson said that APD officers were not in the area of the shooting and that no footage from Wednesday's operation would be released citing the ongoing investigation. And then a whole three weeks after the shooting on February 8th, the Atlanta police department released body cam footage from four officers who were in the woods at the time of the shooting. An officer in the group estimated that they were just 100 feet away. I'm not going to play audio of the gunshots or any use of police weapons, but I'll be including a few brief snippets of police chatter that I and others found relevant. Each of the clips will only be a few seconds long so you can skip ahead if you want. I'll give you a heads up. At time of recording, there are four videos released and they show a self-described quote-unquote clearing operation being done by a single group of APD officers. Shortly after tearing apart and slicing up two tents with a pocket knife, suddenly four gunshots are heard nearby, followed a second and a half later by a large volume of gunfire. I estimate over 30 gunshots fired by multiple weapons. No verbal commands were picked up by the microphone. Two chest mounted cameras were rolling before the shooting. 45 seconds after the gunfire, APD officers were told to turn on their body cams and two more cameras began rolling at that point. Officer down started getting repeated over the radio, but initially there were questions among officers about how much of the sounds heard were fireworks versus gunshots. Multiple officers identified hearing suppressed gunfire, meaning the use of a quote-unquote silencer. Here's two clips totaling around 15 seconds. Just minutes after police opened fire and killed Tortugita, an APD officer on the ground said this in response to the Georgia State Patrol trooper that was shot. You fucked your own officer up. Possibly said in response to other officers noting that the gunshots sounded suppressed. Confirmation spread on the ground that a state trooper was shot, but never once mentioning anything about a protester firing. Police continued advancing toward a nearby tent with guns drawn and officers yelling back and forth to check their crossfire. As teams were organizing the evac of the injured trooper and warning about crossfire, police stated that they did not want to cause another incident. Yeah, we just need a haul until we can get them out. Get the wholesale first. We don't want to cause another incident. At this point, there was a great deal of intentional coordination of officer movement and a lot of effort being put into preventing police officers from being in each other's line of fire. This next batch of audio will be a little bit longer about a minute. Hey, what's crossfire over there? What's crossfire? We're on the other side. Let's say everyone is back here. Everyone is back here. So y'all shoot from that side. There's more officers up there. So we need to shift back on this side. Come with 10. Hey, saw it. Saw the heel. Come this way. We got shift this way. Part of the call. All right. Go around. Okay, cool. We're going on the other side. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. All right. Hey, right there. Hey, right there. I got you, I got you. Wait right there. Check this, this way. I got you. This is the face of our semi-circle. Everyone needs to shift back this way. Hey, he coming this way. He's coming back this way. You good? You done anybody get a contact with anyone? Who is that right here? I'm here to hear you. So farza. The channel? They need who? Police started firing on flashbangs and prepping chemical weapons as they moved further into the woods near where the deadly police shooting just took place moments prior. Police, hang on. Or you won't be fit. Fuck around and you're going to find out. From another angle, you can hear a cop laugh in response to his fellow officer threatening. Fuck around and find out just minutes after police killed a protester. Fuck around and you're going to find out. If you listen carefully, you can hear an officer muttering about how large the police presence is, saying, we've got so many resources. We don't need to rush this shit. Got so many resources. We need to rush this shit. Cops shot off, quote unquote, less lethal pepper balls at an unoccupied green tent and only ended up gassing themselves as they had to walk through the peppered up trees on their way to the tent. Literally, there was over a minute and a half of just straight coughing. When they arrived at the tent, officers got into a brief conversation about the deadly shooting that just took place and the injured trooper. It was going to shoot there all the way. Huh? I don't know where you get shot by that means. It's the first one. It's the first one. It's the first one. It's the first one. It's the first one. Remember that just two hours after the shooting, even before the Georgia Bureau of Investigations first press conference, the defendant forced Twitter account said, quote, we have reason to believe the officer shot today was hit by friendly fire and not by the protester who was killed, unquote. In an extremely uncharacteristic move, the GBI put out a statement commenting on the evidence during their ongoing investigation, cautioning against, quote, unquote, speculation and that, quote, memory and perception are fragile and a myriad of factors can influence perception and memory, unquote. The morning after the body cam footage went public, a statement was released by Tortiquita's family, saying, quote, the videos show the clearing of the forest was a paramilitary operation that set the stage for the excessive use of force and also call into question previous reporting regarding the events leading up to the police shooting, unquote. Tort's own mother, who recently arrived in the United States on an emergency visa, said weeks ago in an interview for the Guardian, quote, I will go to the US to defend manuals memory. I'm convinced that they were assassinated in cold blood and I'm going to clear manuals name. They killed them like they tear down the trees in the forest, a forest manual loved with a passion, unquote. There is an official GoFundMe for Tortiquita managed by and for their family, with funds going to funeral expenses plus travel, legal costs, and to support the family in general during this time of immense grief. The fundraiser will be linked in the show notes. This first episode has been a lot tackling many of the most gruesome aspects of the struggle thus far. Cricket talked about one way of responding to this influx of anger and grief that everyone's been experiencing since the shooting. Yeah, I mean, there's just been, there's been so much grief and so much anger and so many people coming together and so many people trying to support one another. There's been at least among the folks I know, a lot of trying to think through like, what would Tort do, W-W-T-D, and like loving one another and supporting one another, keeps being one of the first things on that list. We will hear more about Tortiquita in the next episode, memories and stories from friends, partners, and comrades based on conversations and moments from the vigil. But today I'll leave us with the words of Tortiquita, quote, The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty. When there are no more cops, when the land has been given back, that's when it's over. I don't expect to live to see that day necessarily. I mean, I hope so, but I smoke, unquote. Music for this episode by the narcissist's cookbook and propaganda. See you on the other side. Yeah. Music for this episode by the narcissist's cookbook and propaganda. Music for this episode by the narcissist's cookbook and propaganda. Paper Ghosts is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal unsolved murder of Tammy's Wiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning, she'll be back, she'll be back. We had no clue where she was. We didn't know where to begin a look. They just hit me like a ton of bricks. I just had not really thought about anything except finding her. Tammy's story shocked the nation. There was no resolution, nothing was ever zeroed in on. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. There was a lot of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. Money and their f*** from a TFBI at a chocolate Missouri. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get, your favorite shows. Levitations, vomiting, strange voices. Have you ever wondered if the story is about exorcism or true? He definitely has something going on. It's primal. And if they are true, how could one protect themselves from these dark forces? It's still in there. It's really... That thing's back. I see it. These are the questions we posed to renowned exorcist father Carlos Martins, who agreed to open his case files to the public for the first time. Tell me who you are. The one you won't get out. The one you can't. My name is Father Carlos Martins. I am an exorcist. I have seen things. 473 miles with me. Very evil things. No, I'm not dead! Things that I wish weren't true. Oh God! That just me! Forget what you think you know about exorcism. Listen to the exorcist files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Ryan Hollins, 10-year NBA vet and current analyst for the Houston Rockets. And I've got a new podcast called NBA Rookie Life, giving you weekly news, analysis, and an inside look into the 2022 draft class. Good evening and welcome to the 2022 NBA draft at Barkley Center. This rookie class is really so fun, so deep. On and off the court, each rookie's experience is unique. We'll be hearing from rookies, league vets, and NBA reporters to track all your favorite storylines from this season's rising stars. You know, if you look around, Mark, this has really been a phenomenal year for these rookie class. Each week, I'll be breaking down the best rookie performances, as well as getting behind the scenes stories, and welcome to the league moments that make NBA Rookie Life so crazy. Listen to NBA Rookie Life with Ryan Hollins on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of things have changed in the woods since I visited last year. The Mntrenchment Creek Park Trailhead at Wollani People's Park is now basically a massive mud pit. The trees cut down and all the grass gone. Sidewalks and bike paths have all been turned into rubble. As we talked about in the last episode, the police have been increasingly destructive during their more and more frequent raids on the forest. In the past year, the cops have demolished dozens of tree houses and targeted protesters with escalatory tactics. The last 13 people who have been arrested near the forest have all been charged with domestic terrorism for their mere association with the stop-cop city movement. As hard as the cops are making it to continue being in the woods, there is still something undeniably special about being in community in the forest, or else people wouldn't be risking life and legal consequences. Living in the woods for me was like a dream. I came to the woods because I was homeless and unemployed and was actually living in different woods by myself. And Tor actually came to the woods for similar reasons, Tor lost their housing in Tallahassee and decided to give this place a try as a place to live. In the forest, there was always a overtime just developed like people built coffee shops and a kitchen that people used. And places for people who just like hang out and do so, they will never stop. People will never stop building and never stopped making life out there as comfortable and as welcoming and as a community best as possible. That's really the best thing I feel I can speak to on it. As that, no matter what was going on, people were always working to make the forest as welcome on a space to as many people as possible as they could. The night of the December 13th police raid, Tor te gita went back to the camp in Wollani People's Park to start rebuilding after police tore down the encampments and protest infrastructure just hours prior. I've never experienced such emotional and material security as I have living in the Wollani forest because there are community of people that are dedicated to taking care of each other and making sure that we all have our needs met. And that was something that Tor and I did for each other often, making sure that we had enough water and food and rides to places. It's really a wonderful place to live and I've also deepened my relationship to the earth. Being there, like living with same trees for over a year is a really profound experience and also it's a really stressful place and people are always budding heads in really interesting ways. What we're committed to remaining in relationship with each other, as part of the magic too, is that if you get into a fight with someone at camp, you don't just move to a different apartment and stop talking to them, they're still around and they're still a comrade. So we're committed to each other in a way that's a way to find the society. Here is cricket talking about the type of support everyone has for each other in the movement and how Tor really embodied that. One of the things I've seen in my experience at the movement is just the tremendous amount of care that everyone has for one another. You don't have to know one another. We don't have to be on a legal name basis and we still fight for one another. We still protect one another. We still try to save one another. And that is something I saw Tor embody regularly. And I'm grateful to everyone who has helped keep me safe and I always, yeah, I'm always trying to keep everyone else safe in any capacity that I can. We've done a lot of safety trainings. Something that Tor was a really big part of was medic trainings, making sure that people have access to life-saving techniques and skills that are often kept away from really vulnerable folks. So that is something we've been trying to contribute and that we're trying to continue now that Tor does no longer with us. We were supposed to meet yesterday to put together a curriculum of marginalized vulnerable people who face gun violence, both from the state and from right-wing neo-Nazi fascists, you name it. And we'll be continuing that work in their name. When spending time in the Wallani forest and even for the many peripheral aspects of the movement, people will choose a forest name. It's like a nickname that helps hide your legal identity. And Norm Diplum. Many chose Tortegita, which is Spanish for little turtle, but it wasn't just chosen for its cute animal association. I'll read from bitter southerner quote it was a nod to the colonial era indigenous military commander of the same name who led Native American forces to one of their most decisive victories against the then nascent US Army in 1791. Now, a tort was allegedly apprehensive to share the meaning behind their chosen name with a journalist who was interviewing them because quote, that does not make us look like peaceful protesters. We are very peaceful people. I promise. There are a few other quotes attributed to tort across various articles that seem to espouse a belief in non-violence as a tactical strategy. It's incredibly important to continue having popular support. Cop City is incredibly unpopular already. We're very popular. We're cool. We get a lot of support from people who live here. And that's important because we win through non-violence. We're not going to beat them at violence, but we can beat them in public opinion in the courts even. Based on frequent phone calls with toward about forced defense, Tortugita's own mother has shared similar sentiments about torts politics, saying they quote, carried no malice on quote. I'm going to read one more quote from Tortugita about this topic. The right kind of resistance is peaceful because that's where we win. We're not going to beat them at violence. They're very, very good at violence. We're not. We win through non-violence. That's really the only way we can win. We don't want more people to die. We don't want Atlanta to turn into a war zone. During my time in Atlanta, I wanted to learn as much as possible about Tortugita, about who they were as a person, what kind of stuff they enjoyed doing, what they worked the movement. But mostly just listen to people's stories and memories of Tort. Peter met Tort just shortly after they moved to Atlanta. So I met Tort in May of 2022, around the time when they first got to the forest from Tallahassee, I met them during that week of action. And they were like insanely enthusiastic about being there. We met around a fire and talked about how our enthusiasm for life sometimes offended people. That was something that we hadn't common. They talked about their mom a lot. I won't say I was a close friend of Torts, but I was dear Comrade to them. And being in relationship with them really sharpened my conflict skills. I was in a few different conflict with Tort and also on the sidelines for some conflicts that they had with other people. And I learned a lot about how to be more gentle with my comrades and how to give people more grace in times of high stress. This is a snippet from my conversation with cricket on what Tortugita brought to the movement and how they really lived their politics. Tort was hilarious. They were someone who always brought fun to whatever they were doing. And I'm sure through the folks that you're seeing, the folks that people can see on social media with like the outpouring of support for Tort. They were involved in so many different groups like so many different causes. And they were they were incredibly dedicated activists, but someone who really felt that resistance could be fun could be joyful could be celebratory. It was always an opportunity to meet new people to hug new people. They were a big hugger. They were someone who was always checking in on other people. They were someone who was always there to lend a hand either literally or metaphorically. And they really inspired I think a lot of people. And I think that that was something huge that they contributed to the movement not just as a person, but also bringing that joyfulness, bringing that energy, that passion and excitement really inspired me and inspired a lot of people. It's funny. A lot of the people I've talked to you were like have like mentioned just because of the different like you know, affinity groups they've been in and stuff. There's like a lot of people I've talked to you have talked have mentioned a lot like that they would not like regularly but like everyone's know I like getting to conflicts with Tort. Like there was someone who you would you would sometimes who there would be just happened to be disagreements with, but despite disagreements, they were like one of the kindest people that they that even when they're you know arguing about about something. It's like they would go so far to make sure that other people knew that they were like cared for and would would go and I would just be be very open towards like everybody they meet. Yeah, I think they really tried to live into and walk the walk of abolition and non-carceral conflict of it's okay to disagree and disagreement doesn't mean that you got to get kicked out. It does not mean that you're a bad person. They allowed for complexity and a lot for processes of working through things of talking through things and that's a huge gift. I mean I I think anyone regardless of their level of activism can relate to the idea that it's hard to disagree. It's hard to be in conflict sometimes. But I do think that they were really committed to building relationships of trust where you could disagree where you could have different opinions but that there was still so much love and still so much care and that those things were not themselves in conflict. Those things were actually very very much related and yeah no it was their their special and yeah I'm just I'm just sorry I'm just heartbroken. Tortugita's partner and a close friend of theirs recorded a video shortly after the shooting just talking about who Tortugita was and how they lived in community. I got permission from their partner to use clips from that video in this episode. Tort was always a very welcoming presence. They're always one of the greatest organizers we had out there. They took care of everyone who came through. They always wanted to make sure everyone was taking care of. They were the ones who would welcome you into the forest and they would make sure you have a sleeping bag, a sleeping pad, a tent, whatever you could possibly need. They always make sure people are getting fed and just kind of like transparent you've never had. One of the people I spoke with Noah also talked about how Tortugita was quick to welcome people into the movement. And you toyed through various actions in around the forest and doing medical work with them. I think I think life people if I could this better remember them as being one of the kindest and most welcoming people that I've ever met working on the forest. Kind of whenever we had new people come in door was very like very often kind of like one of the first people to greet them and was always very like open to letting people come and see and be a part of the community that had been established out in the woods. It was extremely welcoming place. They were a very welcoming person. I was always willing to put down to help somebody out and to do the work. I took to make sure that the community was safe out there and that it could continue. So much of the stuff around the forest. It's all about like the militants in the woods and Tort kind of fell into that category. You know people who are wearing Balaklava's camping out in the forest. Most of the people live interview are also more on that side of things. But not everyone feels like they have the ability to put on a ski mask and live in the woods. One of the people I spoke with was a mother named Karen who started doing local neighborhood organizing after connecting with Tortegita last summer. So I met Tor less summer and there was like lots of things happening in the park and you know I'm a neighbor and so I was the who really fought for you know tried to get the city council to vote against it. And so I was interested you know curious and interested about all these events happening at the park. They were all like mostly at night time and I have a toddler and so I'm like boring and have a strict bedtime. So I don't you know go out at night time. So I was like trying to find a place for me and like people like me and other boring you know parents. So I got connected with Tor and we start and I we started I guess going during the daytime and I'm taking my toddler over there to the park to explore. And you know we taught and I talked a lot about well first they were really excited about all the the idea like children being at the park. They really wanted it the park to be for everyone. I'm very much like a neighborhood mom like I was new to activism and I didn't even know I was like you know I thought we were just like visiting a park. But you know there's like a whole lot of different things about being in it that taught really kind of helped me navigate and showed me around. In my experience it takes a special kind of person to on board somebody knew this sort of thing. Some anarchists can come off as a bit pompous sometimes or at least hesitant to welcome new people in. Karen spoke on how to to kind of showed them the ropes and helped educate on everything from local organizing to security culture well I didn't have signal before I was like okay I want to reach out to try and make my neighborhood aware. I made flyers and just like put like the environmental effects you know and I send it to tort and they were like okay yeah this looks good. And then I was like should it just be like anonymous or should I you know like make like. Instagram or should I put my name on it and you know all those things should I put my number on it and they're like okay well get a Google voice number and you can set up like an email for it maybe use proton. Then I was like should I just like I don't have to put any information on it but like what if you know there's people like me in the neighborhood I guess like how do you balance that and they said no I think if you got to like organize a neighborhood group it would be sick. So yeah you know they were conscious of all those things but also like new wear when and where it was like appropriate and we just like bounced ideas back and forth. And I really helped me like navigate that I really think it just shows how inclusive they were that they like how they were engaged with me I'm like you know an older neighborhood mom but they were really supportive and you know I guess made me feel valued never made me feel embarrassed at anything I think it was just like if it wasn't about like the party or I don't know like being cool or anything they just really wanted the forest to be for everyone and just how they were like willing to engage with the community. So I think that's the kind of conversation with Karen and others in Atlanta really showed tort as a person who was always thinking about others and how to support the people around them. Not even just focusing on themselves while living in the forest but working to expand that care outwards. And I think that's where and tort called a bunch of other I know if they were people that were living in the forest or just people and you know friends or whatever but I'm and was like hey we're all going to go canvas. And I think they slept in that day we met at the park but me in a couple of neighbors met like you know and I was like I had zero expectations and and they texted me later and was like I'm so sorry but we'll do it again. Yeah just that you know like they were willing to come foot flyers door to door and yeah just like support me in that way. Karen has continued to do neighborhood organizing since meeting tort last summer and is a great example of the variety of people involved in the defending Atlanta forest movement. Based on the many local people she's spoken with Karen says the stop cop city proposal is pretty unpopular in the area. So yeah we've just been like dropping flyers off and just letting them know the environmental effects and everyone we've talked to like you know no one wants it. And I think lots of people lots of called in you know to city council but yeah I guess tort and I in our kind of idea was like if we can make a space. It's like you know they may not want to go to the forest but if we can kind of create a space for them in the movement. We talked about the many projects that tort had a hand in and its willingness to just go out there and do things not just sit around and wait for the world to get better. They lived anarchism in a very active way. I don't know if anyone mentioned the Trans Sanctuary that tort built and helped built and and helped organize. I just wanted to uplift that as just another sort of amazing project that they were involved with. I remember hearing about it tort talked about it and they were like oh yeah you know we're gonna have a volunteer day and then two weeks later we had like another little check in and they were like oh yeah no we like did it. And I was like excuse me like I just I don't know they were just like this this Tasmanian devil of social justice like I felt like they were just constantly on the move getting stuff done supporting people. It's just it was I don't know like this is another memory that I keep revisiting of just being like oh my god they are not paralyzed like they are living they were living day to day right like they knew that tomorrow could bring another raid like they yeah they weren't stupid they were really actually brilliant and they could just they just lived every day so fully and brought everything they had. A friend of Tortigitas that goes by the name levitate the Pentagon which is definitely in the top three force names that I've heard but they gave a statement totaling stone where they said quote Tortigita was a proud and fierce anarchist the struggle for total liberation came as their first commitment in life we must honor that commitment. From the lot of the like medical trains that we did together and comes out there they were just and really funny they like to make people have be like a very common presence during stressful times. They can make like a joke related like a situation but a lot of remember like a lot of conversations just about what we were doing and the forest and their like reasons for being out there and they're you know just kind of echoing these ideas of combating their their stay and then they're still push for you know destroying the forest for the effects that they have on the climate. For the increasingly the place to militarize and to suppress not just people in the land but law enforcement agencies across the country coming to train at the facility to better clamp down on the prisons. They were just they're really kind very tenacious that's the two thing recognize come back to the person. Tort's capacity for wit under high stress situations is something I heard from a lot of different people including towards friends and their partner. Just really really like always like how to joke had like a really like good sharp commentary or would like give you like a cigarette professional ship poster yeah yeah I mean their mean game. On point on point yeah and. Just always like doing a lot of things so they were running around a lot like getting things for people and then hanging it off to them and so like yeah I think a lot of the times when we run into like for like oftentimes we run to each other be like okay hi hi okay we're doing a thing and then like. Okay got to go by you know and there's always like yeah. Yeah I'm sure you're super into that. Oh that smile yeah. They love fruit snacks loved them couldn't get enough of them and they always helped do the dishes can I just say like that's a big deal yeah like no one likes doing the dishes is like they were always they're doing the dishes they were like oh my god running water hot water like I mean like like they're like like oh my god and just like yeah that's that's what I want people to know fruits next and dishes fruits next have come up a lot throughout my conversations with people. Tortiquitas partner and friend also talked about how toward try to balance helping other people with their own self care. They were always so passionate because they wanted to help people so bad that they would put their all into it and it took a toll on them in a lot of ways but they always were so fucking strong and took on so much more than I ever could. They they're an inspiration to us all. They also need to like disappear for like hours or days at a time and just like recharge. They read a lot. Oh yeah I ever one of the like it's be sitting in their hammock at our tent near their tent and just be reading doing whatever it was they were doing shitposting whatever they could to de-stress they were good about taking care of themselves but they did get into some conundrums where they get stressed out and then you just see them they go off on their own and then come back in a few days and then they're all good again happy go lucky. I've heard them described as kind and they definitely were I think the word that comes to mind the most is earnest. They were just like incredibly earnest. I think like the earnestness I'm talking about is like they truly live their politics like anyone can talk about like inclusivity and love and fighting for the future. But they actually you know just in how they carried themselves and interacted with me they really did that. And lots of people might be like cynical about it or maybe call them like optimistic or naive but they actually lived I feel like love sounds corny but yeah just like a love for people in nature in the forest. What was that piece we were talking about revolutionary death? Yes. Yeah they read that this last summer and it really had a strong impact upon them and they I think you were sharing as well that they had spoken about how they knew it was very possible that they were going to have this revolutionary death and that... Back to them kind of giving their all they were prepared and they unfortunately paid the ultimate price. As said as we all are and sure towards to wherever they are now is happy to know that they gave their all all away until the end. They were always you know they were a true revolutionary and gave their all to this movement and I think now it's our job to take up that banner and carry on his name. In multiple ways escalatory actions of police last December led to the current fatal scenario not just with the domestic terror framing as a pretext for using increased force but also the physical destruction of tree houses. Resulting in people being out in more vulnerable positions. They were very calculated in their risks and they would never have had to be put in this situation if their home in the trees had been destroyed. They lived in a tree house and the tree house that they were really holding down and staying in was bulldozed in the mid-December raids. On November 21st 2006 undercover Atlanta Police Department officers executed a no-knock warrant on the home of 92-year-old Catherine Johnston in the bankhead neighborhood of Atlanta. Police claimed to have evidence that crack cocaine was being sold out of the house. Officers in plain clothes cut off the burglar bars to Johnston's home of 17 years and broke down her door. According to the police, the 92-year-old woman shot several officers. Multiple cops were treated for gunshot wounds. Catherine Johnston was shot and killed by the police in her own home where police then claimed to have found marijuana. Thanks to an informant who said that they bought drugs at the house. Except every single thing the police claimed was a lie. Earlier that day an officer had found bags of marijuana in the woods. The drugs were planted on a suspected dealer who didn't have any drugs on him. The officer threatened to arrest the suspected dealer if he didn't give up information leading to an arrest. The man gave the police an address on a Neil Street and a fake name to buy cocaine with. The APD claimed the police were raiding the house because an informant had bought crack at Johnston's home. It turns out all of the injuries to officers came from friendly fire. They fucked up their own guys. The cops fired a total of 39 shots, five or six of which hit Johnston. As a 92-year-old woman living alone, she owned a rusty revolver for self-defense. As these unannounced strangers in plain clothes kicked down her door, Johnston did fire once and missed. Three police officers in Atlanta executed Catherine Johnston as they shot each other with friendly fire. To cover this up, they lied and planted evidence. They ran a smear campaign against Johnston further victimizing the old woman that they killed and who the cops knew was innocent. The police in Atlanta have a track record of shooting each other, killing civilians and lying about it. With that history in mind, this next part might get a little complicated, but I think it's important. A lot of the people who knew TOR have talked about how they often advocated for non-violence in direct action. Many have said the sequence of events put forth by police just doesn't sound like something TORT would do. And I very much understand this reaction. Like, police lie all the time, especially when it comes to people the cops have killed. It is very likely that TORT really was just murdered by the cops. But I also think there's part of this reaction that's almost like a self-preservation mechanism. Stemming from a worry that if a certain Pandora's box gets opened, what that would mean for the movement and for the struggle against militarized police and ecological collapse more broadly, there's also many scenarios that can lead to a brief exchange of gunfire, especially with the Georgia State Patrol's relative inexperience conducting raids in the forest. You can spend days just thinking of various possibilities for what could have happened, as I'm sure many people in Atlanta have. Though recently released Bodycam makes some things more clear, but also opened up many possibilities to endlessly ruminate about, especially with on the ground chatter indicating cops shot each other. This next person is one of the original forest defenders I interviewed for my previous Defend the Atlanta Forest series from last May. TORT, as their partner stated, as it's, from stated, what's meant to be about being moved by a piece called Revolutionary Death. They denied shall ray from the idea that they could bow for the things that they believe in. They denied shall ray from the idea that they could bow for the ideas that they believe in and that life they want to live. We should have disness, the possibility and reality that people can and maybe even should look at this world, look at the police murdering three or four people a day, have a climate catastrophe that we live in, have a rising tide of fascism, have the absolute fucking hell that we fucking live in, and then this can't go on. We're willing to do any of them and pay any of them to make it stop. We can't disness, but as a very real, passable, real, and passable state of mind, and not if that was TORT's. If I was TORT to be a TUS, if I was KEM, if I was its position, but it is not a love that it not a love, that it not a love, undying love, or not a love of that, and I really must to die for what we believe in. Tortugita, both privately and publicly, talked about an appreciation for non-violence as a long-term strategy. And the flip side of that is TORT has also been described to me as somebody who acts with intention, acts with great thought, and if they did decide to do something, they would have had a good reason to, and they would not have chosen to do something if it had the potential to put fellow forest defenders in un-adulterated ways. And they would have had to do something if they had the potential to put fellow forest defenders in un-necessary danger. Based on some of my conversations, while TORT advocated for the potential of non-violence as a political strategy, they itself were not solely non-violent. The Atlanta Police Foundation have lied about every single aspect of this project's development since the start. And the police have spent the last year fine-tuning their propaganda to frame the defend the forest movement as a criminal enterprise, and anyone protesting against copsity as a dangerous terrorist and threat to public safety. But there is a difference between mindlessly believing the police narrative and trying to not retroactively take away somebody's agency. Especially if they did make a decision that they thought was the right choice given the circumstance. There are events in the lab that would disclose around the ideas about everything a lot of people have been talking a lot about trying to, you know, there's narrative flaws in the police's story about what happened on that raid. There's inconsistencies. We just now got photos of the gun that their alleged allegium was used just like a couple days ago, and it was days after the GBI's initial evidence find report. It does all look suspicious that I think a thing that's bothered me is that I would never want to take away agency from someone who cannot speak for themselves for an after they may have committed. If torqued shot that cop, there was a shot fired in liberation against the state that murder thousands of people and destroys millions more to the carceral system, the same state that seeks to help the South River flood and to make the soil 20 degrees harder and to make the land as air quality go down. I would never want to take agency away from my comrades who have done that when they cannot speak for themselves and I don't think anybody should try and make it seem like they would have been unjustified after sharp iron at the police and defensive forest as a sharp iron and self defense. I think a lot of people kind of wrap up GSP and APD and like the cab PDFs, they're like very like just as one agency. GSP as a sort of capital is under the direct command of our government and do not worry about it comes as an agency policy. They were the governor's country first when he went something done violently and without accountability that is who he sends. My reaction all of this weather or not what the vent transpired is that our comrades is dead or come I was murdered by the state whether or not they allegedly fired. On an officer I think the solidarity and rage that people should show should be the same either way if there were to come out that the officer was in fact shot I would be so disheartened if people turned their back when our comrades who was slammed by the police for when I see as knocked self defense. With all of the unknown around what happened the day of the shooting what we do know for sure I've heard boiled down to two simple points. Tort was killed defending the forest and they died doing what it loved. The first event type thing I went to in Atlanta was a noise demo outside the cab County jail Thursday night for the seven people arrested as a part of the deadly raid. All seven of whom are now facing domestic terrorism charges for being in the forest. The next day Friday the 20th there was a large public vigil in Wallani people's park last time I was there it was for the Muscogee Creek summit near the end of last spring. It was sunny I was hanging out in the gazebo listening to ecological presentations there was a large tent kitchen in the grass and I got to sit around a table and eat food with people. I arrived Friday evening for the vigil the first thing I saw was the destroyed remains of the gazebo almost on display by the entrance of the torn up parking lot. It was such a clear visual indicator for how things have changed since the start of last summer. Near the tree line a few hundred people were gathered around a sort of outdoor shrine a few large stone slabs overturned candles flowers forest plants little turtles pictures art cigarettes and yes fruits next forming orange glowing mound. People gathered and shared memories of tortugita many spoke of its kindness and solidarity with struggles across the south from the defense of drag shows in Tennessee to mutual aid work in Florida where they helped build housing in low income communities hit hardest by hurricanes. I feel like tortugitas compassion was something that really shifted the culture in the forest and touched all of the lives of the people that they met. They lived what they believed which is something that I hope we can all be inspired by. There are so many stories of people who were just mentioning to a tort like oh I'm in this situation or this happened to my friend and they would just immediately be thinking of ways that community could help them or that they could help them and someone just shared a story with me that the last time that they saw tort. They were telling them about how the on house folks in their community were getting their tents and sleeping bags like swept and then tort gave them two hundred dollars to like replace the sleeping bags and tents. I feel like they were just they had such a sense of kinship with people even people that they didn't know they were so connected to like the ways that we are all a part of this web of life and so committed to living in a way that can bring us all into a better community with each other whether it be us and our fellow human beings or us and our forest. And they loved these woods and I feel like the fact that these woods were where they departed from this realm into the next just makes it that much more important that we protect them and that we make sure that this forest remains intact. I know that that's what tort would have wanted that's what they died doing and I think that in all of the chaos and desperation and devastation that this loss is bringing our community. I think that one of the things that has been keeping me going is remembering the love that tort had for people and for all living beings and just feeling really connected to their compassion. And I hope that that something I know that that something that is touching has touched all of us and the ripples of it are continuing the love that tort brought to this world is still here and is continuing to grow. So I think that they're I think that they're here with us and I think that they always will be because they brought so much joy and goodness and love into this world and not something that never goes away it only grows. I've gotten permission from a few of the people that spoke that night to share some of their stories of tortellita. One of the small things that stuck with me was how someone described tort as possessing a playful rebellious energy. The tort and I watched this Yugoslav film together called My Father, the Socialist Pula, which was this joyful Yugoslav film from the 80s about the transition after World War II in Yugoslavia to autonomous self-rule and breaking apart with the Soviet sphere. And in it early on in the film they're changing their social customs. If adopted in a way of greeting each other in Yugoslavia where they say, good morning, death to fascism. And from that time when I would see tort always they would death to fascism, comrade death to fascism. And when I first met them invited me to teach Ikeeto in the forest which is called the Art of Peace. And so while we train as warriors we train as peaceful warriors. But as many people have said we for instance did defenses of drag shows in Tennessee from assemblies of Nazis and proud boys who showed up in body armor with salt rifles. And tort was militant but joyful. It was with the utmost gravity and yet with the utmost lightness. And we as well arranged a weekend of conflict resolution training here where tort rallied and was the one that brought a half a dozen people, was always rallying people, brought people to the drag defense, brought people to the trainings, brought people to my Ikeeto class. Maybe brought two dozen different people through over the course of several dozen classes. They were a peaceful warrior and they were my squadmate and they got shot dead. And I'd like to I'd like to lead a chant in that spirit to honor some of tort's warrior spirit tonight. And I know one that they liked is anti anti capitalista. And we could start together slow and quiet and build together a powerful voice and pierce the night. And anti anti capitalista. And anti anti capitalista. Throughout the night, many songs were sung alongside screams of rage. Tortigui to actually left a tag with a little red sharpie on the guitar being played at the vigil. It's a little doodle of a cat face next to the words all cats are beautiful. Somebody at the vigil read out a few of the messages sent in to the remember tort at protonmail.com email address. Many of which you can now find collected at stop cop dot city that's stop cop period city. One of the things about tort that was really inspirational is that they weren't just against capitalism. They weren't just against the police. They made abolition about what they were fighting for. And on the we remember tort protonmail a lot of people have been sending in stories about how they contributed so much to each community that they were in. And I want to read this one that came in from someone in Tallahassee. I'm not even exaggerating. They were a part of almost every single organization they could get their hands on in town food not bombs the plant live oak radically ecology international workers of the world. Tallahassee Community Action Committee free Dan Baker stopping hb1. But every person who was lucky enough to be graced with their presence they felt safe and free to do whatever they could for the community. They ran a cold night shelter for the homeless practically on their own when the kerni center couldn't do it. They helped to grow tree deliveries for those in the south side of town for free. They showed up to almost every single meal share that fnb hosted. And this is only a fraction of the work that they did for the bond community here in Tallahassee and beyond. Mani, I always watched you from the periphery with awe. I always wanted to be your close friend. I wish you could have seen the vigil that we had. You would have been proud. The large overturned stone by the flowers candles and fruits necks at the walani vigil had a message written on it that I read when I returned to the park a few days later. The big boulder reads erected in memory of all whose lives were lived and unjustly lost in walani forest. You live on in the trees and are remembered by the land. You will never be forgotten until every prison is empty until every slave is free until all live without fear until earth has healed our work is not done. If it's okay I'll share another of the message that I sent. Mani was a close friend, comrade and above all constant fighter for working people. I knew them in Tallahassee through the IWW food not bonds and live oak radical ecology and I will never cease to be amazed by their tireless activism, their extreme empathy and their ability to make everyone feel welcomed in radical spaces. They died as they lived fighting for a better world and defending the forest from destruction in the name of a fascist militarized police force. I hope their name will not be forgotten and that their killer is brought to justice. But more than anything I hope the cause that they fought for is victorious. Now we mourn this great loss to the Tallahassee and Atlanta communities but tomorrow we will fight back twice as hard against capitalism in the state so that Tortugita did not die in vain. This is another one. They were kind and fierce. They were sweet, extraordinarily funny, conscientious, tender, silly, loving and one of the most generous people I have met. And that contagious smile and laugh, three exclamation points. I went to bed last night hearing their laughter in my head, loud and beautiful. They somehow were still there to add levity and joy as I screamed, cried and choked on my own spit all night. And they killed you. You were gone comrade. I missed you. I missed you. They had a deep understanding of solidarity and struggle. When the cops swept an encampment in my neighborhood without hesitation, they shared their forest funds to get more tons and sleeping bags. Because they knew that these are not individual battles, but that these struggles are inherently tied to another, that they are part of the same struggle. This is a lesson for the movement that must be carried forward. For them, for all of us, for the strength of the fight to stop cop city. I will miss how we greeted one another and our meager attempts to make it a thing, death to fascism, liberation to all people. One of the people playing the Tortugita tag to guitar at the vigil played a version of Bella Chao. And I'm just going to read out the way that they described the song. Bella Chao means good bye beautiful in Italian. The song was originally about an Italian partisan who goes out to fight the fascists in the mountains during World War II. And I'd like to dedicate this version to somebody who laid their life down to fight against fascism, militarism, and against the expansion of the police and against the destruction of nature. Somebody who lifted up all of the people they were around knew so many people was involved in so many communities and was just so funny, so loving, so friendly. And they laid their life down for their community and to stop cop city and to stop militarism and the destruction of nature. They really believed in what they were doing and the way we can honor them is by continuing their fight. Death to fascism, see you on the other side. The world is waking, outside my window, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, drags my senses into the sunlight for there are things that I must do. Wish me luck now, I have to leave you. Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao with my friends now. In the forest we're gonna shake the gates of hell and we will tell them, yeah we will tell them. Yeah, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao that we lawnies, not for the franchise and wish the bastards dropped and dead. Next time you see me, I may be smiling, oh Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, I'll be in prison or on the TV, I'll say the forest called me. The world is waking, outside my window, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, drags my senses into the sunlight for there are things that I must do. Wish me luck now, I have to leave you. Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao with my friends now. In the forest we're gonna shake the gates of hell and we will tell them, yeah we will tell them. Oh Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao that we lawnies, not for the franchise, wish the bastards dropped and dead. Next time you see me, I may be smiling, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, I'll be in prison or on the TV, I'll say the forest called me here. The world is waking, outside my window, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, drags my senses into the sunlight for there are things that I must do. Wish me luck now, I have to leave you. Oh Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao with my friends now. In the forest we're gonna shake the gates of hell and we will tell them. Oh Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao that we lawnies, not for the franchise and wish the bastards dropped and dead. Next time you see me, I might be smiling, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, I'll be in prison or on the TV. I'll say the forest called me here. Next time you see me, I may be smiling, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Bella Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, Chao, I'll be in prison or on the TV. I'll say the forest called me here. Paper Ghost is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal unsolved murder of Tammy's Awiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning, she'll be back, she'll be back. We had no clue where she was, we didn't know where to begin to look. They just hit me like a ton of bricks, I just had not really thought about anything except finding her. Tammy's story shocked the nation. There was no resolution, nothing was ever zeroed in on. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. There was a lot of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. Money and their f*** from a TFBI at a chocolate Missouri. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get, your favorite shows. Levitations, vomiting, strange voices. Have you ever wondered if the story is about exorcism or true? He definitely has something going on, it's primal. And if they are true, how could one protect themselves from these dark forces? It's still in there. It's really? That thing is back. I see it. These are the questions we posed to renowned exorcist father Carlos Martins, who agreed to open his case files to the public for the first time. Tell me who you are, the one you won't get out, the one you can't. My name is father Carlos Martins, I am an exorcist. I have seen things. 473 miles with me. Very evil things. No, I'm not safe. Things that I wish weren't true. Oh God, protect me. Forget what you think you know about exorcism. Listen to the exorcist files on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Ryan Hollins, 10-year NBA vet and current analyst for the Houston Rockets. And I've got a new podcast called NBA Rookie Life, giving you weekly news, analysis, and an inside look into the 2022 draft class. Good evening. And welcome to the 2022 NBA draft at Barkley Center. This rookie class is really so fun, so deep. On and off the court, each rookie's experience is unique. We'll be hearing from rookies, league vets, and NBA reporters to track all your favorite storylines from this season's rising stars. You know, if you look around, Mart, this has really been a phenomenal year for these this rookie class. Each week, I'll be breaking down the best rookie performances, as well as getting behind the scene stories. And welcome to the league moments that make NBA Rookie Life so crazy. Listen to NBA Rookie Life with Ryan Hollins on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The few days leading up to Saturday, January 21st, felt like the calm before the storm. Nobody knew exactly what was going to happen at the weekend of protest in downtown Atlanta, but there was a sense that something would. Shortly after the Wednesday shooting, a flyer went out, calling for a gathering at Underground Atlanta on Saturday, January 21st, and to wear black clothes in morning. This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, and I arrived at Underground Atlanta just a bit before 5 p.m. The crowd was still slowly growing, and a bunch of big news cameras were filling up the central area. As more people filtered in, some who knew Tort went up in front of everyone to share memories of Tortigita, and talk about the continuing fight to defend the forest. Obviously we're all here because Tort was an amazing person, and their life meant a lot, but Tort also shared something in common with all of us, and that was the values and things that they were fighting for. And all of us are fighting for a great cause, and we all have it in common, but it makes us all targets. They will always target us, because they don't believe in the things that we believe in, and they will always be after us. And we all have to stand here and stay together and stay resilient to fight for what we believe in, and never let Tort's memory go without honor. If they would kill an innocent person like Tort, someone who would love their community, they won't stop to kill us. They won't stop to kill everyone in that forest. They won't stop to kill anyone who defies them. And that is pretty much all I have to say. A few people from the Atlanta Resistance Medics, a local street medic group dedicated to the Liberation of Medicine, and providing medical resources for underprivileged and marginalized people, spoke about Tortigita, who was a member of their collective. If there's one thing that we want people to remember Tort for, is that they are somebody who protected the people around them, who went through the training along with the rest of us to be able to provide medical resources to the people that were around them that may not have access to this. No matter what else the news says about Tort, they were a protector. Everything they did was out of love. Everything they did was out of hope for a better world. And I don't care what the police say. I don't care what the media says. I don't care what anybody says. Tortigita is out here working for a better world. They may want to smear them. Is an extremist? They were not. They were out here protecting their fellow people. And that's what we want everybody to remember about them. This thing they were out here trying to build a better world no matter what anybody else says. I love y'all to repeat after me. Tortuga vive. Tortuga vive. Tortuga vive. Tortuga vive. Tortugita was a medic in our collective. They were a forest defender. They were a friend. They were funny. They were kind. Tortugita was constantly thinking of others. They were constantly trying to protect other people, trying to protect the forest, trying to protect everyone who was marginalized. They centered voices on the margins and brought them into the center. They recognized that our struggles are interconnected. They recognized that cop city will never be built. They died defending that forest. The memory of Tortugita that I keep returning to is after the police destroyed the gazebo and we allow many people to park in the parking lot. They were out of meeting and they said, yeah, so the cops think they can destroy our morale? They can't. Y'all Tortugita was one of the most resilient, strongest people I know. They hugged everyone. They were so kind and so giving. And even as the state tries to assassinate their character in addition to their body, they were a freedom fighter. They were a person that I am honored to have known that I'm honored to have called a friend. About 400 people eventually gathered around underground Atlanta. It seemed like slightly more people than were at the vigil the previous night. Everything in modern life serves to atomize you, to make you feel like you are an individual, divorced from any sense of collective identity, divorced from any sense that you have a purpose and that there is good in the world. The fact that you're here means that you're fighting against that. So let go of that. That is powerful and that's why cop city isn't going to be built. It's because we have lived for ourselves and for the people around us. All right, so I'm sure all of you are fairly upset about this. I am Tort was a friend of mine. They were a friend of the community. They're deaf. They are deaf. Well not the in vain. Fuck, cop city. Fuck it all. By 530, about half the crowd gathered at underground Atlanta were in black block. And the rest were a variety of activists, organizers and random people who decided that it was important to be at this event. After some speeches, chance and stories of Tort, the gathering of people turned into a march and took to the streets. A march is starting just left underground Atlanta. Around 300 people, maybe more are marching down the street. There is mix of people in block, there's medics here. People just kind of in regular clothes holding signs. There's a banner in the front that reads they can't kill us all. Firework. Van Rack the front that says trees give life. Police take it. After just a minute of marching down one street, the crowd suddenly stopped. Looks like the march is turning around. Going to the other side. Some more small fireworks. They're launching the sky. Banners getting moved to the front. Looks like the march is now heading north into downtown. Organizers from the party for socialism and liberation attempted to take control of the march and lead the group south in the direction of the state capital building or possibly looping around to the CNN center. But autonomous activists in the crowd turned to the march around and the group 400 strong headed north. It sounds like the PSL people who were gathered at the underground tried to lead the march in one direction and everyone was like no, we don't want to go that way. The PSL people were going to lead everyone into the federal building section of downtown going south. Very quickly they turned around. Well other people turned around and was like no, we're not going that way. They're taking a right down peach tree. Having heading north into downtown. Right beside the Coca-Cola sign on Marietta. The march entered the commercial district. A section of the city completely gutted out by years of the Atlanta way, neoliberal policies that we talked about in the defend the forest episodes from last May. The area is populated almost exclusively by business people, university students and unhoused citizens and was a common sight for Atlanta's 2020 BLM protests. Now that the march is moving it's easier to see everyone in black. All of the old people in block. It's looking more like a large mass of people in block now. Have not seen much police presence downtown yet. It's just a few patrol cars. It's really unclear how Atlanta police are going to respond to this. Got some flares. A lot more of those smoke fireworks. Smoke grenade things. It's not a grenade. It's like a cardboard tube shooting smoke out. The block continued to travel north. Road flares and fireworks lit the path in the darkening evening. Graffiti quickly sprung up on walls with phrases like RIP, little turtle and stop cop city. The march is now approaching an Atlanta police vehicle. It was trying to back up. The cop car is right in the middle of where the march is going to go. They're like less than a hundred feet away. Just one single cop car that happens to be in the path. They are trying to back out of the street. The march has the tree's give life. Police take it banner. There's a big cardboard cut out of a tree right behind it. Police have their lights turned on now. We are all forest and bender. We are all forest and bender. Looks like the cop car is turning around. Yeah, and the cop car is leaving rather quickly. The sun was just starting to set as the block arrived at the main goal of the night. The Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters at 191 Peach tree street. They've stopped in front of Atlanta police foundation headquarters. People are thrown. Put on stuff at the windows doors. Broken windows at Atlanta police foundation headquarters. The people funding cop city. Firework thrown. Umbrellas moved in to block local news cameras as windows shattered. Rocks emerged from backpacks and smashed into the front of the building. Hammers met the glass entrance as fireworks lit up the scene. Another fire. Another firework at the Atlanta Police Foundation. The march is tightening up a decent bit. March is definitely tightening up. A lot of people just in block now. Shouts of B-water kept the mass moving forward as bank windows received a similar pelting of rocks and hammers. People chanting to move like water. A few Atlanta police cars right beside the march. I'm guessing they're going to pull in behind the march. Another Atlanta police car is right there. People hitting chase bank. Another stuff being dragged into the street. Like a cop to barricade. Chase banks head of regional investment banking. John Richard serves on the board of the Atlanta Police Foundation. Police officers exited the two cop cars that were trailing the march and quickly ran away from the crowd, leaving their vehicles abandoned. The police are trying to keep track of where the police are in relation to the march. Looks like I got some cars pulling up behind. Go! The police car pulled up behind the march. Scott, their windows broke in and fireworks went under. One more! One more! One more! One more! Another firework. Another Atlanta police vehicle had the windows smashed. The two that was behind the march. The two Atlanta police officers that were behind the march just got hit. Wells Fargo, one of the main cop city funders, received special love and attention from the block. The Atlanta area president for Wells Fargo, Mitch Grol, is also on the board of trustees for the Atlanta Police Foundation. Two other banks hit around this area. Wells Fargo, one of the contributors to the Atlanta Police Foundation, one of their big funders and backers. A lot of the media here are very thirsty to get stuff of, you know, put into people breaking windows and shit. It was kind of surprising that the crowd made it this far without any real police response. Time almost stretches during these brief moments of uprising. About seven minutes after the first window shattered, Atlanta police finally arrived and made their move. Police are in front of the march now. Police are in front of the march. People might be turning around. They want to do a little like water type thing. Yeah, multiple cop cars are approaching the march from the front. Unclear what the crowd is going to do. Well, Atlanta PD is now approaching the march. They're getting closer. They're going after one of the banners. They're dragging somebody down, pulling someone to the ground. They're chasing people. One person's being arrested. March is splitting in two different directions. Officers started randomly tackling and arresting anyone they could get their hands on. More police arrived from the south and chased down a small section of the march that branched off. Atlanta police come from behind as well. They got to Atlanta police from both sides. Not many officers though. Just few officers. Looks like the majority of the march went... Get the fuck out of the street. Get out of the street. Keep moving. Just first. Get out of the road. Police are getting more aggressive. Pushing a lot of people. Footage and audio of these violent arrests were shared by the Defender Forest account, Unicorn Riot and myself. Get out of the street. Get out of the street. I hear screams coming from multiple directions. It looks like the march kind of split in two. I've seen a lot of arrests. The individuals targeted likely committed no crime other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The majority of the march split away in a different direction from the cops. So I stated where the cops were. Most of the march was able to get away. It was like going through a different direction. We have... It looks like an Atlanta PD vehicle is on fire. The Atlanta PD vehicle burning in the street. Burning cop car. Police with AR style rifles. So I feel like most of the march hadn't had to hit it that way. It seems one of the cop cars that got smashed also spontaneously lit on fire. When the police first confronted the march, most of the block was able to peel off and disappear into the night. Affinity groups reconnected. Block was shed and protesters evacuated out of downtown as the police flooded the mile long stretch of Peach Tree Street that the crowd marched on. After a fire truck put out the burning cop car, police taped off the area. And as they were pushing people out, I recorded an officer saying this amazing line. The whole thing was, there's fireworks and my bombs going off. Bombs or discount New Year's Eve fireworks. You choose. All in all, the actions that night only took about an hour and crews made it home in time for dinner. Six people were arrested at the protest Saturday night. Five were tackled and pinned down as the crowd initially scattered and one other person was chased by a cop car. Sam from the Atlanta Community Press Collective has more on that. A protestor who was subsequently arrested was witnesses state they were basically followed through the streets by an Atlanta police vehicle. Before witnesses say that they were hit by the same vehicle and they were then taken to jail. So you know, Corn Rye released that video and we were able to speak with a few witnesses because as I'm sure everyone saw on social media this weekend, the arrests were a familiar brutal, a familiar brutal site. Before we continue, I do want to play two short clips that were circulating the night of the protest. First is police scanner audio of the cop whose car spontaneously combusted. You want to call? Yeah, we are with these processes. They blew my damn car. I ain't ever go getting any hungry. You know, I was like, what have you did yet? This next one is from live news coverage of the March and this clip became an instant meme. So they're now saying GBI suck my dick. GBI is the Georgia Bureau of investigation. Mayor Andre Dickens and the chief of police give a press conference hours later, which gave us a look at how the state was going to try and frame the protest and acts of targeted vandalism. My message is simple to those who seek to continue this type of criminal behavior. We will find you and we will arrest you and you will be held accountable. We have arrested several of them this evening and chief sure bomb will give you the details on that. And some of them were found with explosives on them. You heard that correctly, explosives and that has led to a police officer's car being set on fire. During the press conference, the chief of police clarified that no law enforcement officers were injured as a result of the protest and neither were any bystanders, which means the only violence against people was done by the cops who randomly tackled any protestor that they could chase down. And so it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an attorney to tell you that breaking windows and setting fires dot protest that is terrorism. And that they will be charged accordingly and they will find that this police department in the partnership is equally committed to stop that activity. We already have prosecutors in the room as we speak and we're reviewing everything we have a lot of evidence to still go through. So even charges you see tonight, those can easily be upgraded and they will be upgraded if appropriate. I brought up the police chief's comments to a few of the force defenders that I spoke with after the protest on Saturday in downtown. Police chief Schneier bomb. I'm sorry I've read it before on. Anyway, the lead police chief said that breaking windows and setting fires is terrorism. I'm curious to get everyone's thoughts on that. So I think the police and Andre Decken are doing what a lot of city governments have done, especially during 2020, which was like do things like call property destruction terrorism, which like it's not even part of you one you can call it like property destruction. Terrorism is a very explicit political strategy that exists. I think the right wing does it a lot and it would be worth calling that like, you know, because a different the forest doesn't have a body. The police have only murdered an activist for defend the forest. Where's defend the forest has not struck an outlaw. It's anybody except in defense against the police. You cannot do violence to property. You cannot be violent towards a police car. It's the same way that Andre Decken is now getting on TV and claiming that like fight calling fireworks. Explosive. It's like, yes, there are objects that explode, but this is very clearly being done in bad faith because it is it is. It justifies it is the same way like the the DOD and the FBI does later. There are some of the terrorism the money just pour is on you get funding you get justification to do things like that. And you can arrest people and charge them with domestic terrorism that makes continuing to move and incredibly hard. That's a really dangerous. I talked with Peter about how if the police are viewing vandalism or destruction of inanimate objects as domestic terrorism. If breaking a window is terrorism that makes a question what exactly is destroying a forest. That juxtaposition of what the police consider violence and like what sort of like destruction of objects as violence. To me this demonstrates what they see like as valuable and also this demonstrates the police state and the corporations inability to understand the aliveness of all things and how sacred the earth is. It shows that what they consider sacred what they hold a sacred is property and specifically their property. I think they fear the woods in part because it moves in ways that they can't comprehend. It moves in non-linear ways. Cricket also had something to say on this topic. Well, and what is destroying a forest what is destroying a person they're more upset about the destruction of property than the destruction of a person a whole human being who is 26 years old. They were young they just started and that does not seem to measure up against some glass pains that doesn't seem to register. And what about the terror they inspire in the forest what about the I mean obviously there these rhetorical questions when I'm preaching to the choir. But I mean God no it's just it's just infuriating there's no. Along for the day when the line is not drawn at well you can do anything except touch private property. Noah mentioned the juxtaposition of broken windows being terrorism but violent actions that actually hurt people seemingly not matter nearly as much at least compared to a cracked window. It's a clear double standard and in the same way that like during 2020 people sitting far too police precinct was insurrection and anarchy and all these things but when the National Guard would shoot people it was a tragic error or a justified shooting when Roman vigilantes would drive cars and crowds and you know the gun and poil them for a pep arms protest it does not be treated with the same. Liberty because the the powers that be can never will never will obviously never hold themselves in same standards that they will call us as their enemies. The meaning of words does not matter to them what matters has been able to get good sound bites to put on like anti-forelax and shit and make themselves because the city has decided that they can't back down from the pro-cop people that they're not willing to like. Back down in that front that this is where they're going to stay for flight and try to hold it out. From the start of the movement the police have aggressively arrested and persecuted protesters associated with the struggle to stop cop city starting all the way back with the first arrest of 11 peaceful protesters snatched off the sidewalk during the city council's vote to approve cop city. As corporations and the state move to push cop cities development forward despite all public opposition repression has increased dramatically over the last few months since December everyone arrested in connection with the movement against cop city has been charged with domestic terrorism. It's not a huge surprise terms like terrorism and ecotourism have been coming up I mean in private conversations probably since the beginning but we can trace it back to at least last summer. When and some emailed emails we've obtained throughout open records requests where city council member and the police foundation was kind of pejoratively throwing around the term terrorists in response to I think it was graffiti or something like I hope they catch these terrorists soon. The terrorists who graffiti the building has also shown up in a couple different public meetings that are about the training center you know committee members who are pro public safety training center anti anyone being opposed to it have also use the term ecotourism. The dangerous escalation of protest suppression is not limited to people engaging in path of resistance or direct action. Some of our open records requests have even shown that since last fall for several months now anyone who participates in like a right in or a call in campaign sometimes those very simple emails of hey I don't think your company should be participating in this project will get forwarded up to the chief of police. You know people's names emails just very very simple call in campaign type stuff the most innocuous stuff gets forwarded as part of you know security alert. This is the anti democratic chilling effect in action politicians and police are trying to create a political climate where people are too scared to exercise their right to protest organize and take action. Georgia's republican governor Brian Kemp has bolstered this alarming escalation of violence and repression against political speech by blaming out of state rioters and a quote network of militant activists who have committed similar acts of domestic terrorism across the country. Red or that has been mirrored by liberal politicians in the city of Atlanta the broad labeling of environmental and racial justice movements as quote unquote terrorism and those who get associated with such movements as domestic terrorists is an extremely dangerous precedent designed to stifle public opposition and scare anyone concerned about police militarization and climate change away from protesting. It's a crude attempt to use as powerful tools as possible to crush opposition and remove the protest from public spotlight while creating cover for intense suppression of protest movements police are making an example of people by trying to pin the actions of autonomous individuals in a decentralized movement on anyone that was unlucky enough to cross paths with the police by threatening 35 years in prison. Let's talk a bit about the role of the domestic terrorism charges and how they are being applied because they're not even being applied to people that are tied to specific acts like you specifically we have evidence that you burn down an escape like it like a construction equipment that's not that's not that they're being used not even being used for like we saw we saw you break this window that's not even how they're being used like the people restaurants Saturday. All six of them got the same exact charges yes how can all six people have done all the exact same thing so. The obviously not being used in the type of like factual evidence based way it's all about like us trying to turn the movement itself into a criminal association yeah yeah APD has even said that themselves in a public meeting that's supposed to kind of like invite provide advice on like how the public wants this project built you know they in the December meeting which I think took place a day after after those. They they bragged about pulling someone over illegally for fill for filming the police they said they were very proud of themselves for taking that person to jail and then they they just blatantly said that anyone arrested for this in connection with this movement will get a domestic terrorism charge that which creates an equivalency that being opposed to this project is domestic terrorism you know the chief of police there in sheer bomb. We're before cameras on Saturday and I think pretty much verbatim said breaking a glass window that is terrorism a lot of people have opinions about how to protest right but what people have conveyed to us is that even those who are you know kind of horrified by property damage it's just not domestic terrorism it's just not being opposed to the police wanting the police to do something differently. Is not terrorism. The Atlanta Solidarity Fund said of the six people charged after Saturday's protest quote protest even disobedient protest is not terrorism it's tragic that we're at a point where this even needs to be said but that makes it all the more important that the public speak out against this divisive and dangerous rhetoric. We have reason to believe these activists were arrested at random during the March all six face the same blanket charges they are being held responsible for committing the same crime by virtue of simply being present at a protest where property damage occurred. 20 people have been charged with felonies under Georgia's domestic terrorism laws since last December police affidavits have detailed the alleged acts of so called terror which include quote criminally trespassing on posted land sleeping in a forest sleeping in a hammock with another defendant being known members of a prison abolitionist movement and aligning themselves with defend the Atlanta forest by quote occupying a tree house while wearing a gas mask and camouflage clothing unquote a review of the 20 arrests showed that none of those arrested and slapped with terrorism charges are accused of seriously injuring anyone nine are alleged to have committed no specific illegal acts beyond misdemeanor trespassing instead mere association with a group committed to defending the forest appears to be the foundation for declaring them terrorists the seven people arrested during the police raid where the Georgia State Patrol shot and killed tortilla were given a bond amount totaling one hundred and seventeen thousand dollars escalating repression is taking form as a gree just bail amounts for protesters inflated charges and as last month saw the killing of an activist the environmental justice attorney Stephen Donzinger said for weeks these people were called terrorists which is a complete misuse of the word the police have been conditioned to believe these people are terrorists and what do you do with terrorists in the United States you kill them it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy unquote the whole bunch of bail information is got released for the six people arrested at the protest in downtown Atlanta on Saturday January 21st and it's pretty high it's the highest bail for a protest that I've ever seen two people that are slightly more local to the area were granted three hundred and fifty five thousand dollars each for their bonds that's set over seven hundred thousand dollars with ankle monitoring and a 24 hour curfew so that's a lot of four other people who are arrested were determined to be from too far out of town and deemed flight risks by the judge and they were completely denied bond so they're going to be held in jail and perpetuity until both further legal challenges like this is going to get you know pushed up to a higher level judge but who knows how long they're going to be in pre trial detention now for pretty pretty ridiculous charges think like this arson riot like felony j walking essentially like pedestrian and not for assembly the message terrorism when they're going over the bail hearing there was there was they were talking about how like this hearing is not for going over evidence this is this isn't for actually the time to live in fact yeah they're not they're not interested in dealing with what the facts actually where because there's no evidence any of any of the people arrested did anything wrong besides margin of street which is been a staple of the history of Atlanta for almost like almost a century there's no absolutely no evidence but that that doesn't matter and that's not really the point either the point is that this is a brutal form of punishment and a deterrent for for other people to say that if you're going to go to a protest and you're going to go to a march you don't need to do anything at all and we'll give you bond that's that's worth almost four hundred thousand dollars per person or we'll just hold you until until this case gets litigated so you want to come from out of town to just go to a march you can do nothing else and get arrested for a peddler to slap with the most of terrorism add on and then they decide that because you're from under the power and half away and just happen to be across the state to stay alive the turnout later as going to be held in definitely on the trial which means with the Atlanta court system that this could be you would be talking to your ass 18 months before before trial if people want it right they obviously they want people to just be guilty and not not have go to trial which is nonsense because there's no evidence but if he does get carried out all the way to trial that could take over a year that could be just being being held for things to clearly didn't do but because the police and prosecutors have decided to use these intense charges as a deterrent it's just extremely blatant like abusive abuse of the legal system abuse of power but I say abuse but this is the way it's also designed like this is the purpose of protesters this is the purpose of police they're doing their job as it's supposed to be they just like make it unfeasible for people to participate in this events and to make it so any like any chance at getting bail for people is made so near impossible they are the most people like looking at an amount like 355,000 dollars is just an impossible amount of money to come up with that's like it's so out of the realm of what is possible for somebody like normal everyday people who are participating in lots of protests that it's just it's just designed to hold people and for as long as possible it's not even people who like this this would be in many ways just as horrific as if these charges were from people who were like in the forest some people like in a downtown marching like this is like that don't have much more like the day the most serious thing that happened was that a car spontaneously caught fire like that is it was it was there's no evidence that any of these people like to ride in the way involved it was even noted inside during during these hearings that many of these people were arrested before the car even caught fire like they were not ready to let it go back to the car and this was not an image and so obvious that the point of this is not to in any way treat this with any realm like reality or what happened but just to make sure that we are that the people are as punished as possible for any actions taken by a group that they were intentionally just even like the vicinity of downtown affidavits for the seven people arrested at the deadly police raid on January 18th in which Tortugito was killed begin by alleging that the defendants were quote participating in actions as a part of the defend the Atlanta forest group a group classified by the United States Department of Homeland Security as domestic violent extremists unquote but a DHS person has responded to media inquiries by saying quote the Department of Homeland Security does not classify or designate any groups as domestic violent extremists unquote the Atlanta Solidarity Fund responded to this news by saying quote when police brought terrorism charges against stop cop city protesters they justified it by claiming that defend the Atlanta forest had been designated a domestic violent extremist organization was a lie DHS has never designated any movement aligned organization in this way what does this mean it suggests that police and prosecutors have been lying not just to the public but to judges in an effort to justify outrageous sensational charges against activists this cannot be tolerated in a free society the public has a long process ahead of unraveling the tangle of lies distortions and coverups that the police prosecutors and their private backers have woven to suppress the right to protest we are determined to follow that thread to its end in justice cannot go unchallenged unquote today the Atlanta Solidarity Fund has supported over 60 people arrested for protesting the proposed cops city development just a few days before the killing of tortequita it could happen here released an interview with people from the Solidarity Fund and anti repression committee if you want to learn more about those organizations the Solidarity Fund is dedicated to continue supporting protesters in Atlanta but with the unprecedented $700,000 bail for just two people they need help to continue supporting activists with bail and legal counsel while they are also supporting civil litigation against unjust arrests and police violence including an independent investigation into the death of tortequita in a statement released after the bail hearing the Atlanta Solidarity Fund said quote the arrested protesters and all other future protesters targeted for political activity in Atlanta need your help please host fundraisers reach out to your networks and donate to the Atlanta Solidarity Fund we especially encourage you to consider becoming a recurring donor Solidarity means all of us supporting each other for the long haul until we are all free if the state is successful in creating this precedent of domestic terrorism protesters across the country could be facing similar speech-chilling charges activists and civil rights lawyers have called for everyone to strongly reject this extreme level of repression here and now before it becomes the norm for activists in every movement what happens here will have legal implications for the whole nation it creates fear, it creates a chilling effect, it was after the December raids a lot of folks in the community were really questioning what was next and it is scary to think about but it's been really heartening how people have seen through the bullshit right Atlanta has an incredible resilience and so does this movement even with domestic terrorism in mind Peter also mentioned how the increased charges have inadvertently shown just how strong the community is after domestic terrorism charges first got laid out in December what was people's reaction to that because that's a pretty substantial legal state repression effort you know you're in the woods you hear that your friends are now getting these ridiculous charges like how does that change what's on the ground yeah I think the terrorism charges well I'll say I was out of town when the terrorism charges happened and hearing about those was actually what motivated me to come back to Atlanta and move back into the woods because I knew that the terrorism charges were a scare tactic to try and discourage people from participating in the woods and the movement at large the suppression has intensified and especially since the terrorism charges start coming in the resolve and the strength of this community has intensified even more and the increased repression has shown me the strength of this community and also how deeply committed people are to being a part of this fight no matter what you can go to at jail underscore support on Twitter for information on how to write to incarcerated protesters in Atlanta the terrorism charges being brought against stop cop city protesters stem from a 2017 law passed in Georgia in the wake of the Dylan roof massacre this law allegedly created in response to a white supremacist mass shooting targeting black people is being used for the first time as a bludgeon against anti racist protesters who are fighting against the expansion and further militarization of police facilities this is the same government is so often uses like that completely simplifies like or issues for example with like far right mass shootings in this country into just a problem to take away the abilities for the protest people in themselves by over simplifying into a non ideological issue and it's so like there's such a clear pattern of who is perpetrating these things it's all like this day at any moment it can grab our power it will do so and that looks better sometimes because it might be a law like going after somebody like Dylan roof but it gets turned around later and used by them to murder you know activists trying to defend the forest and make sure that people cannot make bail and if we're doing for doing nothing more than asking the city to not do something that he vast majority of people in Atlanta do not want to happen laws that are put into effect to stop far right violence will inevitably be used to repress left wing movements any expansion of state power will always come down the hardest on people who are actually pushing back on the power structures of the state like the police and now the domestic terrorism law is being used against forest offenders for mere affiliation with stop cop city the way the state is using these domestic terrorism charges is relatively unprecedented within the United States but this stuff is not completely unheard of it's new for white Americans who are protesting it's new in a very specific context but it's not new for many other people who've experienced state repression and have experienced state repression in other countries around the world you know it's very similar to the way that like the US would you know we had a lot of a lot of people who over the US and global war and terror locking up thousands of people who you know so many of them were just the US Army rolls into a country and it's like all of these people are terrorists they do not have time to litigate the facts they are looking at people as flight risks with no evidence with and substantial declines about affiliations to whatever the hell it is and then they you know in Ignorant six dreams and it was end up to take them on time after the next 20 years or in you know we about to let the connection to all of this to the IDF it's a similar way as if the IDF persecutes their born as a Palestinian people so regional war and a population and then taking as much like using as much force against the people who choose to fight that state power and then just arresting huge numbers of people for claiming that they're like affiliated with Pemos or something for libtage living in the same neighborhood and just throwing the QA this is very similar to tactics that we've seen used across the world specifically during the global war and terror is to lock up huge numbers of people with impunity without the ability for people to get proper legal representation or further ever to be a moment to litigate the facts of what happened and it's a really troubling development to both happening here this has been so destructive in other countries all across the world and we shall be extremely concerned that this has happened in anywhere not just that it's touched you know the US now but this type of legal system should not find comfort anywhere in the world one of the topics of the original it could happen here series was Foucault's boomerang the idea was also brought up during multiple conversations I had in Atlanta it's about how the types of imperialist and clonialist violence that are done in other countries don't just go away they get transported back to the homeland this boomerang effect resulted in a whole series of clonial models being brought back to the quote-unquote west so that it could endlessly practice something resembling clonialism or an internal clonialism on itself the forces of extreme gentrification can be seen as one of these front lines in that way it only makes sense that this is happening in Atlanta to such an extreme degree so like the idea of like when it comes to Foucault's boomerang is there any any strategies tactics equipment the US the best example of it has been tactics equipment as far that are used overseas in a country as clonial worse and period worse will one day find their way returned to the core of set empire to subjugate their own dissidents and their own people the best example of this in the US was military police in cops it is a huge example of this we've seen a return of weapons equipment from the DOD to US police just as a way we saw a murder in his trailer by a SWAT team using new vision goggles and equipment that looks like it came off of like army rangers in 2014 it is a return like the tactics and the equipment and the striving the mindset of an occupying army come back to the center of the empire and are used to subjugate its people and in this case cops in the is a huge expansion of this because of what it's designed to train people to do which is urban combat and even more so the legal system that the US has used overseas to prosecute thousands of people with no evidence as a well-being return to prosecute that is defending the forest the man shot by SWAT in a trailer last month did end up surviving but what Noah is talking about is that there is no true other there is no true awareness this new military urbanism that seems to be necessary to sustain hyper capitalist gentrification is providing zones of experimentation through which the state is able to try out and hone their techniques of oppression in my conversation with cricket they talked about this phenomenon it comes back or it starts here and we're the training ground and then they export it I mean there it's it's and I think you're absolutely right that there is no true other right like that is a construct to keep us out of solidarity with one another that is a strategy to keep us out of alliance at the same table and demanding more I mean it's something that I remember I think it was I think it was maybe something bootage or I don't know some other some other politician talked about in the wake of 2020 you know saying like military weapons should not be used against like like should not be used in our streets or something like that it's like okay but the logical extension of that is that they should be in other people streets like those are also civilians like those are also people's towns and cities and homes like why are we deciding that it's okay for them to be there and not not here and obviously we're not actually deciding that they're not okay to be here but I feel like even the sort of attempts to try and address the insane militarization of the police still rely on that other as if this is not a global issue as if this is not something that affects everyone the solidarity fund has said quote invoking terrorism is a dog whistle calling for more police violence ever since 9-11 American policy has been to hunt and kill terrorists by any means applying this same terrorism label to activists in our communities is prompting police to approach protests as war zones prepared to kill at any time this can be seen in the way gsp stormed the Atlanta forest with militarized equipment and killed tortilla and god I think there's also this tendency to think of the assassination of environmental activists is something that happens elsewhere like this is something that happens in central America this is something that happens in the Amazon like this is not something that happens in the US and it absolutely is something that happens in the US and I think to sort of to to the name of your podcast right like it happens here it's not and it it could be any of us I think that that's another sort of possible strategy or idea behind this like oh they're outside agitators thing of trying to create this scary stranger danger and trying to make people think that the person who is murdered couldn't be them because they're from here like oh like I'm local like I wouldn't have been murdered no like like no absolutely not like they will murder with impunity and it's really scary and it's really in raging like I I think it is both to me inspiring and because if they're going to kill us no matter what then why not cause as much good trouble as we can on Thursday January 26th governor Brian camp declared a state of emergency in response to protests Saturday night sparked by tortilla's death under that order 1000 national guard troops were mobilized to quell protests and police the streets of Atlanta once again I'll end with the words of tortilla quote dear comrades we are in the trenches of the class war capitalists would rather see us dead or enslaved so we must fight like hell billionaires are causing a mass extinction and can only be stopped by collective action cop city can and must be stopped but we need more help we need people on the front lines and robust supply networks we need to love and support each other unquote now that the war is here how are we going to fight it the rain on the rain on the the earliest the instruments the melody we mimic in as the sound of wind whistle it long before the safety its chan and under the stars camped under volcano peace she sang on song and she was far from silent no virus or violence with the fragrance of her flowers it continued to invite us a medicine to tiray use a vitamins of minerals and all that is essential which is grew right beside us and Tyson started fighting over the gifts that she provided by the scorching the past so you're that all the bus to ride from an impious learning came with stand by you we return to the land where our ancestors rain danced we are all the creatures we still bear features the one and only reason all living things is breathing the cities deceiving leave go see the dirt young go be among the lungs of mother earth our star yet four attention Before they chop them down, they were the forest. Paper Ghost is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal unsolved murder of Tammy's Wiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning, she'll be back, she'll be back. We had no clue where she was, didn't know where to begin looking. It just hit me like a ton of bricks, I just had not really thought about anything except finding her. Tammy's story shocked the nation. There was no resolution, nothing was ever zeroed in on. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. There was a lot of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. Money and their f*** from a TFBI at a choplin' Missouri. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Levitations, vomiting, strange voices. Have you ever wondered if the stories about exorcism are true? He definitely has something going on. It's primal. And if they are true, how could one protect themselves from these dark forces? It's still in there. It's really? That thing's back. I see it. These are the questions we posed to renowned exorcist father Carlos Martins, who agreed to open his case files to the public for the first time. Tell me who you are, the one you won't get out, the one you can't. My name is Father Carlos Martins. I am an exorcist. I have seen things. 473 miles with me. Very evil things. No, I'm not safe. Things that I wish weren't true. Oh, God! That's it's me! Forget what you think you know about exorcism. Listen to the exorcist files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Ryan Hollins, 10-year NBA vet and current analyst for the Houston Rockets. And I've got a new podcast called NBA Rookie Life, giving you weekly news, analysis, and an inside look into the 2022 draft class. Good evening and welcome to the 2022 NBA draft at Barkley Center. This rookie class is really so bad, so deep. On and off the court, each rookie's experience is unique. We'll be hearing from rookies, league vets, and NBA reporters to track all your favorite storylines from this season's rising stars. You know, if you look around, Mark, this has really been a phenomenal year for these rookie class. Each week, I'll be breaking down the best rookie performances, as well as getting behind the scenes stories, and welcome to the league moments that make NBA Rookie Life so crazy. Listen to NBA Rookie Life with Ryan Hollins on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In the early morning of January 31st, news started to proliferate that the city of Atlanta, the Atlanta Police Foundation, and to Cap County reached a quote-unquote compromise regarding the future of cop city. Word spread that city officials in Atlanta were about to announce a major scaling back of the cop city project. At the project's size would be dramatically reduced, and focus more on fire department and first responder resources, as opposed to the original plans for the militarized police campus. Many were skeptical about this news, and saw this simply as an empty promise masquerading as a compromise in a savvy PR move. But even some who were pessimistic, at least saw this as a sign that the movement is having a substantial impact. Activists rallied outside City Hall, holding stop cop city signs, and defend the forest banners. Some reporters were denied entry into the press conference, and protesters stood outside Mayor Andre Dickens' office and chanted. At the press conference that afternoon, the mayor of Atlanta and representatives of Decap County announced an agreement to allow the previously announced 85-acre cop city project to proceed as planned with land disturbance permits to be issued. The rest of the land parcel of forest, least to the police foundation, will be allegedly set for preservation, a claim that was already previously promised by officials involved with the project. Decap County and the city of Atlanta released a memorandum of understanding for the building of the site, containing a quote, statement of principles, commitments, and intentions, unquote. Mayor Dickens framed the facility as an answer to demands for police training reform during 2020's George Floyd uprising, saying, quote, this training needs space, and that's exactly what this training center is going to offer, unquote. The mayor also responded to environmental concerns by claiming the area of forest slated for destruction contains only, quote, invasive species, softwoods, and weeds, unquote. Officials said the so-called compromise agreement would contain provisions for preserving parts of the south of our forest. When asked how the environment would be protected, Mayor Dickens mentioned that it's a 385-acre set of land. Cop city is 85 acres. The rest is green space, and that quote, the environment will be protected in that way, unquote, with no indication given on how it would be protected or by whom. Among the few environmental promises are, quote, replacing any removed or impacted specimen trees with 100 new hardwood plantings on the site or elsewhere, as well as one specimen tree for any invasive species tree that was removed, unquote. It's unknown if they have even counted how many trees have been felled so far. Activists called this a ploy to hastily push through a sequence of land disturbance permits. The most up-to-date site plans has the Public Safety Training Center spread out over a parcel of 171 acres with about 87 of those acres slated for disturbance. There is nothing in the lease agreement that restricts the police foundation from building outside of those 171 acres, though they promise it will be protected green space. This compromise PR stunt is not even a new tactic. In August of 2021, after initial protests against the project delayed the city council vote, the Atlanta police foundation claimed a similar quote-unquote compromise. Instead of clearing the 388 acres that they are leased by the city of Atlanta, they would reduce the footprint of buildings and disturbed surfaces to only 90 acres, while more of the land would be cleared and turned into turf fields, shooting ranges, and horses' tables labeled, quote, unquote, green space. And wouldn't you know, that sounds almost exactly identical to this new plan for compromise unveiled at the end of last month. Upon such rhetoric and empty promises, the movement didn't falter, but continued to demand and fight for the full cancellation of the project, whether in the Wallani forest or elsewhere. After the January 31 press conference, organizers in Atlanta called for a week of solidarity actions starting February 19th through the 26th, quote, calling on all people wherever you are to take action in solidarity with the movement to stop cop city. Protest, sit in, call and email the contractors building cop city. Every action has an impact, unquote, at stop cop city solidarity dot org. There are guides for various actions people can take from calling cop city contractors or investors to posting flyers around town or planning direct action using the interactive target map. If you do go on any movement related website, it's strongly recommended to use a VPN and a tour compatible browser like brave. The national spotlight on the movement has certainly increased a great deal in the past month, both with an influx of scrutiny and support from across the country and even the world. The press collective has always had kind of a hybrid hybrid role both of reporting on the movement and researching the movement, researching the prison farm, but a lot of media outlets don't quite understand the autonomous nature of the struggle. So we have kind of found ourselves in a role of kind of liaison in between media and the rest of the movement, but thankfully it's not just us doing it because boys everyone interested all of a sudden. No one was talking about the movement at the beginning, so we were like, all right, we'll talk about it ourselves. We've been able to use our platform to publicize a lot of solidarity events and not just share memorials and what people want others to know about toward, but publicize these things across the nation and across the world. So, the statements and solidarity have come in from radicals in Italy, Germany, France and Rojava after the killing of Tortugita, vigils happened in cities all across the United States. A wave of targeted vandalism and direct action against cop city investors and contractors happened across the country in response to towards death. And there's a concerted effort to not seed perception of the movement to the state. People have an intentional collaborative way to affect how the movement is seen externally. This media strategy is simply one prong of the fight, along with the encampments, sabotage, vandalism, pressure campaigns and canvassing. I think it's really representative of the type of people that are dedicated to this struggle in general, the way that anyone and everyone has come together to handle the influx of media requests to make smart decisions about it, to make sure that decisions are made with the consent of those involved, be it sharing the stories of people who are arrested that day, sharing the stories of the rights, family and towards partners and making sure to respect their boundaries in space. Despite the diverse nature of requests, there always seems to be somebody in the movement who is able to speak on whatever aspect of the struggle is needed. You need someone who's caught a master's in environmental engineering. There's someone in the movement that can talk to you for 45 minutes about the good environmental reasons to stop cop city. You need someone to talk for three hours about the history of the place. There's someone for that too. You need someone to talk about how the project is a pretty good example of why the black mecca is a myth. The movement has people who can speak to that too. There's been a tremendous amount of attention paid to the movement, all of a sudden. Again, the way folks have just stepped up and come together to handle it, I think speaks to the communal nature of the movement. It is dedicated to building, it's not just about saving the forest, it's about saving the forest for the community. When I spoke with Karen, the neighborhood mom who started canvassing and organizing in her community, she mentioned how even her older family who are long time Georgia residents haven't totally bought the state's talking points. I can say, my mom and my mother-in-law and family, they know that I care about this. They're boomers, but I've been surprised how there's a lot of skepticism in the police narrative, which I found really interesting. Normally when something like this happens, it's just a 100% police narrative. Mayor Dickens, the day-tort died, put out a pretty infamous tweet that just expressed their condolences to the family of the trooper that was injured and not one single word about the person that died. And in most fatal incidents with police, you at least get some kind of boilerplate language about, oh we're sorry that someone died. And a lot of the initial statements from government and large organizations just said nothing. But the media, even local news, and pretty much every single report, there's at least a line or two, if not a pretty decent chunk of whatever five PM news story it is that's a protesters have questions, people have questions about towards death. And given the pretty universally negative way that local and Atlanta media in particular has covered the Defender Forest movement, the fact that even those outlets have to respond to the overwhelming amount of folks speaking out about how what happened doesn't make sense about what kind of person tour was about how none of this had to happen in the first place. I'd love to say that someone who pays attention to the meat how the media covers this that I could have predicted that would happen. Three members of Congress, Rashida Talib, Corey Bush and Senator Ed Markey have joined in calling for an independent investigation into Tortugita's death. Like I saw a screenshot from NBC News this morning, NBC News and like the Kairon was protesters still have questions about towards death. Like that's from this morning, even after after the riot to quote unquote after the arson and property destruction and almost like a week after the incident. Yeah, like I mean it was it's hard to remember now, but I think it was like almost a month after George Floyd died before folks really. Yeah, before it really got national attention with when right Shard was killed here in Atlanta, it was a little more immediate because of because of a lot of things. During the rally at Underground Atlanta, while people were speaking in front of the dozen or so news cameras, someone talked about how there are still people in town that are just learning about cop city and the fight to prevent it from being built. They have worked. I had four different conversations about the Lonnie forest in regards to everything that's going on with four different people who were unaware of what was happening. As big as the seams right now, a lot of people are still unaware and as long as we keep being loud, as long as we make sure that cop city will never be fucking built. We just got to keep talking about it. Made of Dickens, Ryan Millsap, you have blood on your hands, fuck cop city. I think we're about to really see how the national media is going to pick up on the domestic terrorism. And frankly, the fact that they're talking to us at all or the fact that they're talking to the movement at all, I think speaks to the strength of the movement and the simple truth of it, which is that torque didn't have to die. And this is a very wide-ranging movement with a lot of people who have some very good reasons for being opposed to the project. And I think those reasons are so compelling that I don't want to say it's easy to see past the noise but it's not that hard. conversation with Tort where I was like, and this might just be like a egotistical or something, but I really think this is like a lot bigger than you, you know, just a little neighborhood struggle. And yeah, we talked about, we're like, yeah, no people don't know it yet, but it's the intersection of so many things. And you know, if more people realize that, it would be huge. And it's, you know, really heartbreaking that I think they were, they were right. Um, you know, they didn't get to see it. One of the main talking points this state has been trying to push through to the media is condemning cop city protesters and force defenders as outside agitators. There's a good crime thing, Zine titled the making of outside agitators that focuses on the use of the term as related to the 2014 Ferguson uprising that gave birth to the modern black lives matter movement. For this next section, I'll paraphrase a little bit from that Zine. The state and media's invocation of the term in Atlanta has been accelerating rapidly since the raids last December, using it alongside notions of terrorism to justify the police's violent escalation of protest suppression. For example, this clip from the cop city community stakeholders advisory committee meeting held days after the December raid that introduced the domestic terrorism charges. Speaking is the assistant chief for the Atlanta police department. And so one of the things we charged them with to include criminal trespass was domestic terrorism charge that we put on them. So going forward, that will, that is one of the charges we'll be using because that's exactly what they are. None of those people live here. They do not have a vested interest in this property. And we show that time and time again. Why is an individual from Los Angeles, California concerned about a training facility being built in the state of Georgia? And that is why we consider that domestic terrorism. There's a darkly prophetic sentence from that crime thing, Zine. I mentioned quote, when we hear them say outside agitators, we know the authorities are getting ready to spill blood. A pretty consistent talking point by the police foundation, police, the state in general has been that a lot of the people they've arrested for incidents related to defend the forest have had out of state licenses, out of state addresses. And what they describe as no connection to Georgia, they have been sent here to to stir up trouble, right? They aren't from here. They're just they're just here to because they don't like the cops, right? They have no they have no stake in the struggle. So there's some pretty obvious problems with that. And there's some pretty lengthy historic racism tied to the term outside agitators that makes it, you know, especially heinous to to use in the south, the term outside agitators was used to describe the freedom writers. So it's got a little bit of history there. Governor Brian Kemp declaring a state of emergency so that the National Guard can be on standby to occupy Atlanta. Sure seems like outside agitation. But even the Atlanta police department's use of the term carries with it a great deal of hypocrisy. APD has since 2020 really made a big deal out of stepping up its recruitment efforts. And if you go back and look at those presentations to the media to city council, they consistently talk about oh, we went to New York for three days. We went to Miami for a week. I believe it was would have been September just after Darren Sheerbaum was officially installed as chief of police. He went before the city council and talked about how he was so proud to have personally recruited someone from Detroit. Per basically a part of their loan application because they're applying for a loan to finance part of cop city by their own numbers. 43% of recruits that will be trained at this facility will come from out of state. They are 43% from outside the state of Georgia. Again in APD's own statements about the facility, this facility is built to bring in people from out of state, from out of the country even because Atlanta participates in the Georgia International Law Enforcement Exchange, which is basically an exchange program with the IDF with with the Israeli military where we go there. They come here. We teach each other. News articles claiming that a majority of those arrested are residents from other states might sound like convinced the evidence to middle class readers. But anyone who has been poor and precarious knows that the permanent address you give when you're arrested may not be the same as the place you actually live. You might give a different address because you aren't sure your current housing will last because your landlord doesn't know your place has more people in it than are named on the lease or simply because you don't want local vigilantes to know where you live. Instead, you might give a more reliable long-term address perhaps from another state. I mean on a human level, like how many times have you moved somewhere and not changed your address? How many times have you going to the DMV sucks? Yes, going to the TMV sucks. So a lot of people don't have the privilege to be able to go to the DMV or don't have a permanent home address. People are dealing with housing instability. There's so many aspects of this that makes it pretty egregious and not only of course is this a struggle that is deeply compelling regardless of where you call home. It just doesn't catch up to the facts of life. It's a little bit bizarre. There are incidents that the local populace couldn't possibly be that opposed to it when grab any one person in the movement who's from Georgia and they know 10 people who's opposed to it. That person knows 10 people and also you have statistics like during the what 17 hours of public comment, 70% of people who called in were opposed to it. Basically the only people who weren't or people who self identified as police officers, firefighters and those who lived in Buckhead. And it's not that simple but it's pretty clear that maybe you'd be okay with building the facility somewhere else. Maybe you're an abolitionist. Maybe this that and the other but Atlanta doesn't want this. Atlanta doesn't want this here. Let's imagine that some of these arrestees who gave out of town addresses are in Atlanta for the very first time. Would that make them outside agitators? Maybe if the issue was specific to Atlanta alone and they had no stake in the cause. Cops city would be a place that police agencies from all around the country and world come to to train and practice urban militarism. Climate collapse and the destruction of forests is similarly a worldwide issue and one of apocalyptic magnitude. It's a false narrative in one sense because climate change affects everybody. Cutting down a forest would make climate change worse. Like that's a very very very obvious talking point. If environment of protecting the environment is important to you, it is obvious that this is a very key struggle right now, especially in the context of Atlanta being and growing and also gentrifying city and this being in a largely black and brown middle to low income neighborhood and this being such a vast green space in those communities that don't have the manicured Piedmont Park in their backyard. When people are suffering the same forms of oppression everywhere, it makes sense for us to come into each other's assistance. This is not outside agitation. This is solidarity. Solidarity has always been the most important tool of the oppressed. This is why authorities go to such lengths to demonize anybody who has the courage to take risks to support others. Cricket spoke at length about the outside agitator narrative that the state has been employing. I think one thing that comes to mind is something that I've heard a lot is that the people in this movement are not from here, quote-unquote, that they're outside agitators that are not from this community. It seems to me very clear to be an attempt to discredit what is a very clear majority of the community that does not want this forest destroyed, does not want cop city built, 70%. That argument infuriates me because first of all the US military is the biggest outside agitator in the world. I find that irony unbearable. There's this question we can get into. Questions of what does it mean to be from somewhere? What I think is a more helpful question is how are you somewhere? How are you in relation to a place? I think Tort was someone who was always trying to be in the right relation with the land and in right relation with their neighbors and right relation with the communities here. One story that I keep revisiting of them is when we were checking in and people were asking them, what do folks in the forest need? What can we get them? Do they need food? What do they need? Tort was like, oh no, actually, we have everything we need, but it would be great if people could start, we could make sure they're giving food to the poor folks in their own communities. Make sure you're giving the food to the people in your neighborhoods. Are you checking in with the unhoused communities in your neighborhood? They were just I think constantly seeking to be in right relation. I think regardless of where all of us are from, if we can claim to be from somewhere, I mean, arguably for not Muscogee Creek, none of us is from here. But I think it's a more helpful direction to think about what are we doing once we're here? How are we trying to be here? Yeah, I mean that specific argument really frustrates me. I think it really obfuscates how much this is a local movement and also having solidarity from across state lines, from across national lines, speaks to the intersection of our, the intersections of our oppressions, the intersections of our movements. It doesn't speak to the fact that this is co-opted or it doesn't indicate anything, other than that none of us is free into all of us are free. The ultimate goal of the police is not so much to brutalize and pacify specific individuals as it is to extract rebelliousness itself from the social fabric. They seek to externalize agitation. So anyone who stands up for themselves will be seen as an outsider, as deviant and anti-social. Noah mentioned how the outside agitator narrative is rooted in stripping people of their own autonomy. It's completely denying you like the freedom of movement and the freedom to decide that you would like to go and support other issues as if with the empathy of the minazron and to show solidarity with other people as well as like just deciding that if you are living here a bit from out of town that somehow makes you a flit risk or that makes you in some way more more dangerous than if you are a personal official resident in some way it's a complete bullshit. I mean and even some of the people who are like out of town they're like not even two hours away from where from where the prosecutors are claiming where they're from. The outside agitator narrative only works if we have this sense of otherness that we talked about in the last episode this disconnect and separation from neighboring struggles as if lines on a map change the morality of actions keeping people in free trial jail for an unknown amount of time could could be literally over a year because they are deemed non-local so the judge thought they were a quote-unquote flight risk beyond the charter themselves which are innately kind of absurd and the brutality is the point. She her audacity of keeping people with no evidence in cages for years for going to a protest is just it's not surprising but it still is incredibly upsetting like it's like it's no and it would be completely to cry for happening any other country right and a massive human rights violation if those were happening in China because of the US China relations like absolutely not there they're being entire like I don't know national outcry but because it's people who are resisting this government in this state then yeah it doesn't get the same kind of empathy it doesn't get the same outcry when I talked with Karen she spoke about how thankful she is that there are people from across the country people like Tort who care about the South River Forest enough to travel to Atlanta to defend it in terms of the narrative of like outside agitators you know I'm really grateful that people are coming to like protect the forest in my backyard like I am I have like so much gratitude it is so it is so meaningful um yeah and I yeah I think I uh I think after the first raid I told Tort that and I'm glad I did but yeah it really is like just so much gratitude the framing of outside agitators is meant to keep people away and stifle solidarity just like the domestic terrorism charges are meant to the state is trying out every tactic to scare people away from participating in the movement so it feels like just the past month there's been such a intense increase in the level of state repression and state violence how do you see things evolving in the next few like weeks and months or the even days at this point like just with how both like physical violence is definitely increasing with the raids and now like you know killing somebody um and then the types of like you know uh judicial abuse of power giving people you know $700,000 bail keeping you know many others just in jail and perpetuity for who knows how long yeah I mean I think it's clear looking at this movement that the state the cops police have always been the first to escalate have and have now murdered someone have now assassinated someone and uh are the ones who are constantly sort of making putting other people's lives in danger they're really the people who are making folks unsafe uh and and Tort was a street medic Tort was someone who went through street medic training with someone who was passionate about protecting their community and in street medic training one of the things that is taught there's a whole section on police weapons and state weapons and ensure we cover tear gas we cover bullets we cover all anything that you can sort of commonly see protests or in raids and one of the biggest weapons that we always cover is fear and that is really what I see happening with this escalation is that yes there's a sort of increase of literal weapons of arms of just everything that we've heard about in in the forest um but I I think when you take that in combination with the ludicrous charges what they're really trying to weaponize is our own fear as our our our own emotions making us think that it's too dangerous to be in the forest that it's not worth it that it's too risky uh making us think that the forest itself is somehow an unsafe place uh making us think that the people who protected are unsafe and I think that's the that's the sort of trend that I'm seeing I think in terms of what's coming next I think they're going to keep leaning into the the weapon of fear I think it's um I think it's you know it's it's it's not not ha ha funny that they accuse protesters and the people who've been charged with domestic terrorism of intimidation when clearly they're using those charges to intimidate people but the the people who are charged with it and anyone who might consider themselves an ally or a friend of the forest and a friend of the forest defenders so what I see moving forward in terms of carrying towards legacy forward in terms of carrying this movement forward is not buying into that bullshit like very much being fear walking and not trying to say people shouldn't be scared and not have those feelings but one of the memories of tort that I have is them very clearly refusing intimidation whether it was cops whether it was you know whoever the sort of representative of the state was they never gave into that and I think that's what I'm trying to carry forward with a lot of us are trying to carry forward Noah spoke similarly about fear being a powerful weapon of the state and a very insidious one because it doesn't punish people for actions they may or may not have done but instead works to prevent people from taking action in the first place fear fear is the number one tool that the state brings to bear all of their their toys and their guns and shit do not have the reach and do not have the capacity to stop acts of liberation as fear does making people afraid of the idea of revolting of the idea of dissidences extremely powerful and it's something that we all have to combat in our own ways it's something we all have to resist in our own ways because that obviously the state is capable of murdering and of putting people in prison for a very long time and that is scary and that is a valid thing to be afraid of but we stand to lose so much if we do not combat that fear to face off with them that it's just something that I've found I have to manage it's something that because we I'm so much more afraid of what we all lose if we don't stop them here than I am of myself being harmed we're going to prison we all stand to lose ten tens of millions of people stand to lose everything if we allow climate apocalypse to bear if we allow the power is there be to get significantly more effective at combating dissidents in the streets from you know that that goes not not just for in the United States but for a cop city this is an international struggle I mean this is the same police department that does cross-training with the idea if you think the idea for wouldn't be coming to this facility to train better how to you know kill Palestinian dissidents how you drive the North yourself like this will mean something to every foreign military to every foreign police force and every police force in the US there's a quote from Torqueita talking about how to deal with fear what I'm about to read also demonstrates as their partner said that tort was very aware of the risks inherent to resisting the state especially as a non-white forest defender but with an understanding of that risk and the fear associated with said risk they chose it was worth it to keep on fighting quote am I scared of the state pretty silly not to be I'm a brown person I might be killed by the police for existing in certain spaces fear is the mind killer that's a quote I think about often to continue what tort said quote I am scared but you can't let the fear stop you from doing things from living from existing from resisting unquote in the early 1960s Atlanta was dubbed the city too busy to hate the phrase can be traced back to a civil rights era marketing slogan attributed to mayor Ivan Allen who spent millions of dollars in the 1960s to promote Atlanta as a business oriented city a city moving forward from its racial past and into a hopeful new future this was the beginning of the Atlanta way still today you can find the city too busy to hate everywhere on on murals posters and t-shirts it's become part of Atlanta's identity or at least Atlanta tries to tell itself that within the slogan lies this admission of the belief that racism and oppression can be beaten by hyper capitalism meaning the first and foremost goal of the city is economic progress equality and racial justice must take a backseat because the city is just too busy there's a few better examples of this in action than the black neighborhoods that were demolished to build infrastructure for the 1996 Olympics and later than Mercedes-Benz Stadium since then the belt lines original vision of public transit green space and affordable housing has been abandoned in favor of developing luxury apartments and in gentrified retail joints as Foucault's boomerang brings the internal colonization of the gentrification and increasing police militarization to Atlanta it only makes sense that cop city and the battle to stop it is happening here toward died two days right after Martin Luther King Jr Memorial Day were in Atlanta there's this whole section of the Delta airport Atlanta dedicated to John Lewis you can hear his voice on a loop saying good trouble and yet as soon as the festivities are over as soon as the fund raising is over when someone is shot resisting the state and a peaceful nonviolent direct action they're labeled a terrorist I don't understand how someone can possibly reconcile those two things they seem to me to be grotesque I mean it's it's disgusting but I don't see that reflected in any mainstream narrative Noah talked with me about how he first got involved in the stop cop city movement my introduction to cops they started where most people landed when I got first leaked that this was a thing that the city was planning I remember having just a very like oh my god with the fuck like reaction to realizing like they're gonna destroy the largest urban the canopy in the country to build a big fake city for them to practice doing urban combat and that's like parody dystopian and very quickly people were organizing various different ways to to stop them to to make their voices heard that this is not something that Atlanta was okay with this is not something we were okay with having our communities is not something that anybody wanted they took a lot of different fronts for me I mean that went from working whether that be on the streets to just doing food destroys and medical trainings to you know scamper and around the woods with my friends like that took many different forms just and so our police are resistance do and over time that has changed and evolved but I still think it's something that I work in a lot of different fronts to be as effective as a person as possible and it comes to resistance this the sheer resiliency we've seen in Atlanta post 2020 has been incredibly impressive and inspiring after 2020 the radical communities in a lot of cities dealt with pretty extreme burnout due to such a grueling summer and ever since then people seem to be recovering and anticipating the next cycle of mass uprising as news spread of Memphis police's brutal beating of Tyree Nichols which resulted in his death there was renewed discussion if it was going to spark the quote unquote next 2020 but Atlanta is one of the few cities where things really haven't halted since 2020 defend the forest stuff has been going pretty hard ever since like 2021 and it's been a very like impressive amount of resiliency can you can you can you kind of talk on that aspect of how people have been able to do that yeah I think it comes down to having a really good support network of people people who are willing to be support activists who are jailed support activists medically financially like we're able to make this possible and it also comes down to that the defend the forest movement is so it is so important to anybody or should be so important to anybody who looked at 2020 as a strike back against police violence what cops it means for all of us is a world in which is much harder to resist police especially in cities and for a lot of activists who came out of 2020 defend the forest became an extension of that fight it became its own and it's on fight to protect the forest and the extension of the battle against the violence of the state and against the ability of the police to further militarize I think they're a couple of a lot of people going but it certainly happens I mean it is it can be really exhausting work it can be really defeating at times and it's been really important I think for people everywhere and here to have you know friends and things that they can do to decompress and take time off when needed to stay to keep the ability to keep doing this and to not buy out completely and to be able to keep going against what feels like all ads at times also just activists here pretty fucking resilient just I'm continually so impressed by the people I see just continuing to guard day after day and working behind the scenes doing everything possible to make sure that we can keep going there's a lot of different has a couple things I'm getting when people's kind of serious and the past has done I like laterating campaigns for political prisoners across the country which is certainly like a thing that you know we're looking at it is interpubial being held very long term that's absolutely going to be something and the coming weeks that I help people spring to do like obviously these people who are incarcerated need are support in every way we can possibly possibly do that if the people currently incarcerated are granted bond during the appeal process and it's set to the same amount as the last two individuals that would be three hundred and fifty five thousand dollars per person for at least five more people that included with like the previous bond demands that were set for previous rates I mean we're approaching three million dollars and potential bonds which is just designed to drain people as much as possible and make the idea of protest as seem impossible and again this is just another their tactic this is how they provide you a power is through fear and making it seem as impossible to protest and they make it seem like if you were to be the rest of the two would never get out because that's terrifying and it's there that's that's the number one to what they bring to their there have been a few semi distinct stages in the struggle against cop city in summer of 2021 the initial stage was trying to get the city council to vote no on the project there was a lot of canvassing calling representatives involvement from large above ground organizations like the dsa and sunrise you know people trying to quote unquote to campaign the right way to get the project shut down before it even started and then even despite 70% of the local people who called in not wanting this the city council voted for it anyway and then starting two months after the vote and for over a year now we've had this forest occupation or encampment stage people going into the woods and having their continuous physical presence there itself be a deterrent for construction concurrently there have been random acts of sabotage with construction equipment spontaneously bursting into flames alongside pressure campaigns targeting subcontractors and cop city investors with the past few police raids having been increasingly violent the last one resulting in the death of a forest defender I asked the people I spoke with if they saw any forthcoming new stage of the movement considering the cops are trying really hard to make it very dangerous to camp in the woods right now what's your sense from on the ground how stuff might we know with these increasing charges increasing amounts of alvons and increasing use of force what's some kind of ways that you feel stuff might start changing on the ground like do you think the encampment style or content will continue or will it kind of evolve in a new kind of unexpected direction it remains to be seen how the approach to living in the woods will adapt to these changes the decap county police department has claimed that they're going to increase their surveillance and patrol of the neighborhood that the woods is in it remains to be seen what that will mean for the encampment and how active they're going to be in you know repressing people in a day-to-day sort of thing and also I think one change is reconsidering what on the ground means and what the bounds of the forest are there's more woods that black hall plans to develop on nearby so reconsidering what on the ground is you know brass field and gory construction sites could be considered an on the ground site you know for actions and you know I think there's a lot of room to grow in that direction as well like do you see this moment as like a substantial turning point if I'm sure I mean I don't think it couldn't be a turning point I think every every escalation of violence that has been perpetrated by law enforcement there's never been a moment in which the people can batting law enforcement have been the ones to escalate the violence and I think that this marks a a willingness of the the government here in the city government that this is the hill that they're willing to die on this is where they're going to stand their ground and where they are proving to us that they are committed and so committed to the idea of building capacity that they are willing to kill people and I think that is a turning point in how we as a movement have to be willing to respond to the state and how we have to be willing to look at them not just as this entity that we are facing down like in like the courts and during fun blast because that clearly doesn't work they are just going to murder us but as a force that is a you know like offensive militarized force coming after us I think that is a that it marks a really big shift and overall looking at what the city government is willing to do to get this done I think that a variety of tactics will always be in play and people are always going to have different ways that they feel comfortable and safe and responding but I do think that I think what we saw on Saturday was a with a response that that people showed up and they made it very clear that we were not going to take this line down that people weren't going to be willing to let the state go and answer and that they were going to let the police go and answer for this act and I think from the now I'm going for I think we will I think I hope at least that we see more and more people taking up access of physical resistance to law enforcement to the state to prevent them from building capacity and preventing them from committing further acts of violence and for marriage so far the forced occupation has proved effective in delaying the construction of cop city in the past barricades have inhibited the movement of construction equipment machinery left in the woods has been sabotaged and during attempts to fell trees forced offenders have put their own bodies on the line by climbing into the tree tops to prevent them from being cut down other prongs of the movement have similarly produced successes pressure campaigns focused on getting contractors and businesses to divest or pull out of the project resulted last April in a Reeves Young construction the initial contractor for cop city severing ties with the project after months of pressure and just this month quality glass company announced that they would not be working on cop city as well as no longer doing business with brass field and gory the current contractor for the facility these pressure campaigns can include protests at company offices phone calls imploring them to drop the contract or actions more along the lines of evangelism at drop sites or visits to the neighborhoods of company executives even to simply drop off flyers or banners I don't think this was ever a fight that we were going to win on one front the amount of people that we were able to put in the encampment the forest was really beautiful to see but the state was always going to be able to put out enough manpower to shut that down this is a battle that we win on multiple fronts and that includes you know that includes having that can include having physical presence in the forest and preventing machinery from coming in but that also includes our acts of sabotage making sure that contractors who are signed on the cop city do not feel comfortable and do not feel safe signing on to this project and making this economically impossible for the city to continue going as far as it being like a new strategy I don't know if it would be new is a vorticing you know it's procurement spontaneously combust and judge things but I do think this marks a point and potentially like the frequency of this things happening and also a necessary I think evaluating of where we are now and thinking realistically about what our next steps are to make this an untenable situation for the city to continue to proceed. Well one evolution that I see happening is a consensus amongst long-term organizers in Atlanta that we want as many people coming here to participate as possible and also that I think one change being less picky in who we invite to participate and encouraging like liberals and moderates to like be a part of this they've always been a part of it but really um emphasizing that side of the movement more. Back in the defend the Atlanta forest episodes from last May I talked about the shack model the game of which is to make construction economically untenable by maintaining a presence in the forest sabotaging work and targeting specific subcontractors locally and elsewhere. In addition to contractors corporate funders affiliated with the APF can also be targeted to disincentivize affiliation with the project. Solidarity actions targeting Atlanta Police Foundation contributors have been happening nationwide. As mentioned at the top of the episode a week of solidarity is coming up on February 19th and stop copcitysolidarity.org has many resources. In the past actions have included everything from office protests, divestment campaigns, vandalism and actions by workers within these companies to pressure them into cutting ties. No action is too small or too ambitious. In analysis on tactics published recently on its going down said this regarding the targeting of cop city investors quote in other campaigns banks like Wells Fargo had been forced to divest from police and prison expansion but these efforts often take years and lots of resources. Atlanta Police Foundation supporters like public universities Georgia State University Georgia Tech or Emory University could be lower hanging fruit. Comrades should identify which cop city funders are most vulnerable to pressure, where potential allies like student groups and unions are positioned and share the sympho and synchronize actions. I'm quote. Bureaucratic red tape can also be effective in delaying progress. On going zoning appeals could result in an official stop work order but it remains unseen if such an order will even be followed as currently laws around zoning appeals are being ignored by the contractors and the Atlanta Police Foundation. Tortugita had spoken of a theory of theirs concerning the potential for intense police repression and how the aftermath of that might play out. Quote they could come in and completely destroy the place. Raise it arrest everybody they confined kill anybody who resists arrest. They could do that and then days later there would be a shitload of people back here. For every head they cut off there would be more who would come back to avenge the arrested to avenge the tort did not finish that sentence but resuming. What I'm saying is if they do a huge crackdown and completely try to crush the movement they'll succeed at hurting some people they'll succeed at destroying some infrastructure but they're not going to succeed at stopping the movement that's just going to strengthen the movement it will draw a lot of attention to the movement if enough people decide to do this with nonviolent action you can overwhelm the infrastructure of the state that's something they fear more than violence in the streets because violence in the streets they'll win they have the guns for it we don't. No matter how the movement continues the weight of tort's absence will be felt as long as this fight carries on. It's such a huge loss but as we as we keep thinking about you know WWE what would tort do it's continued to support those projects it's continued to uplift the spaces and groups that are supporting the most vulnerable amongst us and uplifting their voices uplifting their safety and they're going to continue to be trainings offered training specifically for folks who are marginalized and afraid of gun violence and want to know how to be able to protect themselves and protect their friends. This came about specifically in the wake of the shooting at the gay bar I guess a few months ago now Jesus and that was something that tort was helping organize so yeah we're gonna we're gonna keep doing that work. How do you think going to like continue on without without toward there now? Um you know I think they they sent me up the hardest thing to navigate like okay what can I do where can I fit in like um shorter you know living in the forest and I think with just like the canvassing I feel like I've really figured out the ways I can you know my place in it um enough to keep me busy. Was tort kind of very instrumental to having you help figure out like your role in this? I mean honestly I would just like spitball you know an idea and they'd be like yeah you should do that um oh we were like yeah that'd be sick and that gave me the confidence to be like okay and also like I think this movement is interesting because it's totally different from any other organization or anything I've done in that like if you want to volunteer and any other thing like you know you make a graphic and you check it and you send it to someone and get it approved you know and just like the kind of deconstructing that thinking was like I mean tort was really instrumental in that and it can be like difficult to navigate but really just walking all that back and being like if you want to like you know canvas your neighbors like you just do it. The stop cop city movement has called for a fifth week of action to be held on March 4th through March 11th in Atlanta Georgia. They are asking all those opposed to cop city to come participate in a variety of events and actions both in and out of the forest and if you're able to bring a tent. If you're unable to travel there's still calls to support people in your own community who might be able to do so. This week of action will be a key moment in the next phase of the fight to defend the forest. I want people to know that being in the woods even if just for a few days will transform you in unexpected and delightful ways and that's something that we witnessed with tort. Tort lived in the woods for less than a year and they transformed and blossomed into their purpose in unexpected and beautiful ways and so if you have the opportunity to come and spend any amount of time in these woods I encourage you to do so because I think that you'll find that it will nourish you and aid in your growth as a human. The police have not succeeded in scaring everybody out of the forest. Willani People's Park is still legally required to operate as a public park. Last month I saw regular people jogging the trails. People still come every day. The movement has only grown despite the repression and now forced defenders in Atlanta are urging people everywhere to organize for the upcoming mass convergence. A large list of resources and movement websites I'll be putting in the description for people to learn more and stay up to date with information regarding the week of action. I'll end this series by reading from a Defend the Forest poster that I saw around Atlanta. It is your mission to stop a cop city by all of the means at your disposal. Without hesitation, defend the forest from destruction, the city from commercialization, the future from ruin, the imagination from conquest, and the heart from resignation. Do not wait for further instruction. Reality is the battlefield. We are all the creatures we still bear our features. The one and only reason all living things is breathing. The cities deceive and leave. Go see the dark. Young will be among the lungs of mother earth. The forest. Paper Ghost is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal, unsolved murder of Tammy's Wiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning, she'll be back. She'll be back. We had no clue where she was. We didn't know where to begin to look. It just hit me like a ton of bricks. I just had not really thought about anything except finding her. Tammy's story shocked the nation. There was no resolution. Nothing was ever zeroed in on. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. There was a lot of physical evidence that had never been analyzed. Money in their f*** from a TFBI at a job in Missouri. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Levitations, vomiting, strange voices. Have you ever wondered if the stories about exorcism are true? He definitely has something going on. It's primal. And if they are true, how could one protect themselves from these dark forces? It's still in there. It's really that thing's back. I see it. These are the questions we posed to renowned exorcist father Carlos Martins, who agreed to open his case files to the public for the first time. Tell me who you are. The one you won't get out. The one you can't. My name is father Carlos Martins. I am an exorcist. I have seen things. 473 clothes. Very evil things. No, I'm not sick. Things that I wish weren't true. Oh God, that's just me. Forget what you think you know about exorcism. Listen to the exorcist files on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Ryan Hollins, 10-year NBA vet and current analyst for the Houston Rockets. And I've got a new podcast called NBA Rookie Life, given you weekly news, analysis, and an inside look into the 2022 draft class. Good evening and welcome to the 2022 NBA draft at Barkley Center. This rookie class is really so fan. So deep. On and off the court, each rookie's experience is unique. We'll be hearing from rookies, league vets, and NBA reporters to track all your favorite storylines from this season's rising stars. You know, if you look around, Mark, this has really been a phenomenal year for these this rookie class. Each week, I'll be breaking down the best rookie performances, as well as getting behind the scenes stories. And welcome to the league moments that make NBA Rookie Life so crazy. Listen to NBA Rookie Life with Ryan Hollins on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. God fucking dammit. I just got another fucking message about the goal that's clean me alone. All right. And this is it could happen here. So, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about the incredible investment vehicle that is gold. Now, look, people, if you aren't currently putting all of your money into gold, and I mean all of your money, then you're just leaving cash on the table. Gold is such a good investment vehicle that if you had bought $10,000 worth of gold 20 years ago, you would have roughly the same amount of money. Can you be gold? I've replaced most of my teeth with gold and I have roughly the same amount of teeth. So, it's a win-win. Wow. Wow. Incredible. Gold is perfect for a number of reasons. Look, if you're worried about instability, obviously, if society collapses, gold is the thing that you want to have. Because, of course, you'll still be able to trade what is fundamentally a useless rock for goods and services in the event that there's no civilization. That just makes complete sense. Don't stock up on ammunition. Stock up on gold. What about gold ammunition, Robert? Oh, now, see, that's what if you want to kill super vampires, that's what you want is gold bullets. You know, there is something like maybe it's like survival of the fittest. I'm allergic to gold. So, if I touch it, it gives me a rash. So, I can't survive in a world of gold. So, that's a lie. I love you. Well, if you need to take out charene and the apocalypse, make a gold spear or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just give to it. Yeah, give it your way. Look, it's a good idea. According to one of my friends who has read much more marks than I do, a marks predicted that we would go back to the gold standard. So, yeah, wow, it's going to be great. The immortal science wins again. Um, um, Ken, Ken, I'll give you a call. This is actually today we are talking about, um, collapse, but not the collapse of the economy, because the economy is kind of always collapsing. That's part of what makes it the economy. Instead, we're talking about the fact that the market for eggs has gotten insane. People are paying crazy prices for huevos these days. Um, and there's, there's no, no good reason for it. Obviously, like it's the, you know, egg production in some places was like impacted by the bird flu, but that is not why eggs have gotten more expensive. It's pure corporate greed. But regardless of that, people are finding themselves thinking about like, wow, eggs are expensive as hell. Should I maybe get some chickens? Um, and today we have several chicken owners on the podcast, myself and James Stout, and several people who don't have chickens, but are chicken curious. So we're going to talk about having chickens. James, I take it. Yeah, yeah, I do. I've been training for this my whole life. So yeah, this, this was your idea. So yeah, Vence is very much my baby. So if you guys want to sit back and then about chickens, I'd be happy to do it. Your baby, James or your egg. Well, that's the thing. If they're one could be the other, if given enough time, yeah, if we've talked about this, I've heard. Yeah, it's been a discussion for some time in the chicken community. All right. Talk about chickens. Uh, so I want to start out with, like, if you're thinking about getting chickens, um, and I have written a script for this, thank you. Uh, good. Yeah, I'm ready to roll. So the most important thing, obviously when you're getting animals, you're getting any animals is like that you're responsible for a living thing and you have to take care of it and you have to be kind to it. And uh, you have to treat it well and make sure that if you're not able to go after it, like, if you travel a lot for work and someone else can, right? And yes, chickens are particularly useless. Oh, they're useful. Uh, and they're very nice, but they're not like the most practical animals. Like if you, if you leave them alone, they will die. If it gets too hot, they will die. If it gets too cold, they will die. Um, like you, you do have to look after them. They're not like a wild animal that comes in sometimes in lace eggs. Like, they're an extremely domesticated animal that's been domesticated for, I know, probably thousands of years. So it's a responsibility, I guess. Um, I, I'm just going to, I'm going to go through some of my stuff. If you guys have any questions as we like move along, please feel free to ask them. I want to start out with the breeds of chickens, which I think are a good idea. And so when you're looking at chickens, the first thing you're going to want to look at is your space, right? Like how much space do I have in their own websites where you can calculate like you're working with your acreage or how many yards you have, how many chickens are appropriate? James, the level of prepping this dog isn't beautiful. I'm like, I'm like so happy. I will, I will note, be, be careful about getting too many. When I got the place that I got, I inherited 14 chickens. Wow. And that is a tremendous quantity of chickens. And, and there was especially the chickens make, I, you know, kind of in their prime egg length can make one. Sometimes, some chickens will do two a day. So there were weeks where I was getting like close to 100 eggs, which is far more, far more eggs than a human being can possibly consume. Yeah. Right. You can consume, I can consume 100 eggs. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then they will, they will consume you. I will mail you eggs. Yeah. Yeah. I always do your eggs. Eggs are like eight. I walked into a grocery store. Okay. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm now doing the bed. I walked into the grocery store. The eggs were 850 and I was like, what the fuck is going on here? Man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a fucking bank. I have like literally 60 eggs sitting in my kitchen right now. Robert's gonna sell eggs on a dark web. You're goddamn right. This is how I fucking leave this, this damn podcasting bullshit behind. I'm gonna become the egg man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Two bitches. Finally, I used for crypto currency. Egg coin. It's a two-year. It's tied to the value of eggs. It's the only crypto currency. Completely collapsed. Yeah. Don't over-chick in yourself. Like starting out, but also don't get too few. You do want at least three. Yeah. Yeah. Or they'll be sad or they won't get along. And if you, if you're like a normal household, three is probably a great number of chickens. Yeah. Like you, you will probably be quite happy with three to four chickens. Yeah. You'll get like if you estimate like six eggs per chicken per week is like a fair kind of estimate. Yeah. So they'll take some time after in the year or seasons change or molten stuff. So 18 eggs, like yeah, you're going pretty hard in a normal household if you're eating that many. So I think if you start people like to think that they should get bantams start off with, do we know what bantams are? Non-chicken understand. I have a lot of chickens, but I don't know anything about the kinds of chickens. So we've had a few bantams. They're not great to be honest. Like bantams are mostly showing birds. So it's a smaller chicken. Think of it as like a half-size chicken, right? And if you've seen like a really fancy and you can go ahead and Google some bantams like some different. Oh. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're really pretty. I like two I like large chickens. Now look, I don't engage in cock fighting. I think it's a moral. But I like to know theoretically if they had to, my chickens could handle themselves in a fight. Did anybody ever think Robert would be like, yum-big chicken guy? I look awful. It's so horrible. It's, yeah, you want big chickens. Some breeds to look for are all pink tins, like buff all pink tins. And you can remember that big because they're buff. And the great ass chickens. Yeah, it could get a yolk to all pink tins, get it, get a hench road island red. And people in America don't say hench, do they? Oh, how cute the bento is. No, but that's a music. Oh, yeah, we've had a couple of those. So beautiful. So one of the things about bantoms is you can't get them point of play. So point of play is when they've been sexed, right? So you know that they girls and they come to you just to win their about to lay, right? And you don't, Jeremy, you get bantoms younger and you don't get them sexed. So in our case, we had one. She, she crowed a lot. So we thought she's a rooster. She wasn't any other one was a rooster. So yeah, that's going to be my question. Do you need to get a rooster also? No, no, you don't. So the chicken to get a lay regardless. I can't, I don't understand how that works. Okay, so the chicken to get a lay regardless, right? That's just how they just do that's just that the eggs on fertilized, right? Yeah. So they won't make chickens. They will be baby chickens. Oh, it's like if I get it, I get it. It's like a human doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like their equivalent of of menstruation effectively. Yeah. I know that now I'm, everything's coming back to me as far as like being in talking points go chickens, by the way, because chickens are, as James said, these, these are animals and you have to take good care of them. That is your responsibility. You do low key realize the longer you have them, but they're monsters. Like they're favorite food is their own kind. They have a section about this each other. They're animals. Yeah. Oh, they're monsters. Yeah. So like. Yeah. Don't go outside with your chickens. Like the other day I was, I was cutting down some bushes and I had those short, I had a little cut from the, from the thorn. And when they see blood, they are just like fucking exoset missile. Boom. And does that affect the egg? Like what? Yeah. I mean, what you need them. So yeah, we, we butchered a deer last year and we wound up with a lot of like deer fat and kind of like meat that. You gave it to the chickens? Well, yeah, we had some stuff because the deer had been hit by a car. There was some meat we could need. So I want to give it several pounds of meat to the chickens and those eggs fucking ruled. Wow. Okay. And it's not advised to feed them deer, but yeah, so you want to stuff actually if you, so they do bleed, there's a stuff called purple spray. I'm sure it's not what it's actually called, but it's purple and it's a spray. And you can, we already called it purple spray. You can spray it on them and it just stops it looking like blood. I'm sure it's like an antibiotic or maybe an antiseptic, but yeah, you could spray that on the chicken. So like one of mine, she's just got this little thing on her wing that opens up every now and again. And I just make sure I spray that and that stops her from the other ones from packing her. Right? Yeah. So yeah, you have to be tiny dinosaurs. We had a last year, some kind of animal. I think it was probably a like a, like a possum or something. I don't really know. Some kind of animal got into the coop and attacked my chickens. And we had, I had one chicken, we called it the anarchist chicken because it could always escape. It like never was in the cage. And when, when they got attacked, the anarchist chicken left to defend the rest of the flock and fought off whatever it was it attacked, but she wound up with a hole in her side. And so I like took her and I dressed the wound and I put her back in the cage and they all immediately tried to eat her. Oh yeah. You want to have a separation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have a tiny rabbit hutch that we use. It's called the Merrill Peep Memorial Chicken Hospital because Merrill was one of our chickens who died. And you just put them in that for a few days until they're better and then they can reintegrate just fine. And so I did, we've made very little progress on my script. Okay. So sorry. You want to get Buffaw Pinktons, Rhode Island Reds are good, Plymouth Rocks, AmeriCorps are nice. Have you guys seen those? No. What? If we don't know, I don't know anything about what we're talking about. I know we're saying. I know we're saying. I know we're saying. What did they teach you in school? So they're called Easter Eggers sometimes. They lay different color eggs, like pastel color eggs, like blue and green eggs. No. If you've not been exposed to this at all, no. No, I mean, I grew up next to Cornfield but also I, I guess I was around a farm but we didn't interact with the chickens because you don't, I don't know. They were like here, deal with cows instead. That was like, chickens are good. I've straight into cattle if you're getting into animal house. But yeah, AmeriCorps is a fun, say ladies colored eggs. One of my friends dad's had them when I was a kid and he made bank selling them around Easter. So yeah, if you're looking to get into a chicken hustle and then lec horns are like really good. They're like hardy chickens but they are loud. So if you live near people, I would consider not. You should also check your local laws like where I live, you can't have a rooster. You can have up to five chickens within city limits, you can't have a rooster. You don't really want a rooster unless you don't have chicks. No, and one of the things roosters can do is like peck at your chickens and effectively like wear holes in there. Like, yeah, they wind up like all the parts. Yeah, they're little sons of bitches. We harvest it. We harvested ours as soon as I got the place and harvested. Yeah, that's the term. This leads into a question that I've been wanting to ask, which is that, okay, it is my under, it is my firm belief that I could defeat a chicken in single combat. It was sent me to the hospital. But apparently this is the thing you need to do with your chickens. So how practical is it to defeat a chicken in single combat if you have to extract another chicken or something? I've never actually had any kind of aggression from my chickens. When I'm bleeding, they'll peck my leg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It comes at an aggression. We hadn't realized that they, so a thing that you want when you get chickens is a rodent poof feeder. So you don't want to just put the food in a bowl. If you have an issue with rodents, you want to have the thing. So basically, she comes up, she stands on a step and that opens up the feeder and she can peck and eat. So you want to get a rodent poof feeder. You can just buy them a tractor supply. But ours gummed up with rain and we didn't realize. And the chickens are obviously not getting food. They're upset with this. They attack me every time I came outside. They'd attack me and I'd be like, go away. So I'd give them treats. I'd give them worms and apples. A kitten has arrived. I have to. She was wanting to hold or to be held. I'm holding my cat for anyone that's like, what's happening? Yeah, yeah. She just wanted to be snuggled. That's okay. She's giving you a kiss. Yeah, so the mind would attack me for a while and I just gave them meal worms when they would attack me. So unconsciously, I was reinforcing the attacking behavior. So they would attack me for a while. But I think you could take them. Just keep swinging. Yeah. You don't have to. They're very, like most of the time, at least mine. I hand feed them. So like a nice treat for them is I'll cut a melon in half. And I'll chase Cherine because she's allergic to melons. I am. I am. And then you just hold it out and they'll come and eat it. They love scraps. That's often what I do with basically all of my food waste is give it to the chickens. And they tend to be very happy with that. Yeah, it's very sustainable thing. Let's get on to space. I want to talk about. Wait, before we get into this, speaking of sustainability, do you know who else is incredibly sustainable? Oh, wow. I don't think we can say that. Capitalism. Yes. Well, shiny stuff. It will last a thousand years. All right. We're back. Yep. Buy some gold. Buy some gold. What a reinforce that. Because gold when you're starving will be more useful than chickens. Because it's shiny. That's right. That's right. It'll make you forget that you're slowly starving. Yeah. And it's the foundation of all of this shit. It's been shiny. Okay. Yeah. So talking to shiny things, I want to talk about chicken cubes. Because there's a shiny thing, sectional. I love a good coupe. I do love to make a coupe. I love to buy a coupe. I have to help my friends buy a coupe. It's a great conversation area. Anyway, so they do need a coupe. They need a place where they can go at night and you want it to be shut off from predators right? So you don't want your possum, your raccoon and your fox, your stoke, your weasel, ferret, whatever, whatever you're dealing with snake. So once you get above three chickens, you might want to have more than one nesting box in there. But like, this doesn't necessarily mean that you need to go out and buy, like, you can buy them on Amazon now, but they're quite expensive and they're often quite shit, like the, like, the pre-made chicken cubes are very poor quality. Like, you don't have a shed or a kennel or something like that. You can pretty easily make it into a coupe and you can just put a drop down door on the front so you can close them in at night and let them out in the morning. Or I've seen people use like drawers, you know, like, like, dresses. Just open those and use them as nesting boxes. And you want to put down some straw in your nesting box. Yeah. I have, I have, I think, four for the, the, the chickens that I have now, which is about, I think I've got about 11. Yeah. And there, they are two of them are large enough for two at a time and then two of them are smaller. Although, chickens, and sometimes one of the things you have to do occasionally is come in and like, take them out of them, some of them out of the nesting boxes, some of them get like stuck in a loop where they get broody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you just, I just like, take them out and set them down where there's like some stuff to peck at and they seem to, it kind of resets their little chicken brains. Silky bantoms, which are one of the like show bantoms get broody as fuck. And it's like, I've had friends who have had them and they will, they will not eat and not drink because they're like, no, I'm sitting on the desk. Like, you can't stop me. Yeah. And you have to like lock them out of there. There's not even an egg there, chicken. What's wrong with you? Yeah. So they'll take another chicken's egg. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, or even like a silky. That's so cute. That's so cute. Look them up. They're real, they're flufas. They're very cute. So you want to build them a run to right at a place where they can say if you run around and have their food, have their water. And I would suggest using construction netting when you build a run, right? That people call chicken wire, which is like maybe one inch size holes. But like a lot of stuff can get through that. You'd be amazed, rats, mice, snakes can all get through that. If you use construction netting, which is like maybe, I'm not very good at inches, but like about one centimeter size, a lot less is going to get through it. And you might want to bury it down to like a foot or two below the run if you're building something permanent just because things can dig underneath right like we had a fox to go underneath when I was a kid. And don't it's preferable to do that to putting on the floor of your run because they don't like the little wire and the little feet. Yeah, no, no, definitely not on the you want them to have access to dirt and ideally sometimes grass to one thing that they because I I will let them out sometimes during the day. And I have a barn that has like a like it's kind of dust in there like not dust. Almost like sandy dry dirt. And one of their favorite things, especially during the summer is to just kind of like sit down and rub that they can get all up in the like and they kind of need to be able to do some version of that in order to be like healthy. Otherwise they yeah, it's it's good for them. It's good for their skin. It's good for them existing. Yeah, it's good for that mental health. I think they're like people keep Christians in terrible conditions commercially, but it doesn't mean you have these keys to so. Oh, when I when I got these chickens, they had been the people who'd had them before. I don't know what the fuck was wrong with them. They had a sizable outside run, but whoever the folks who had them had covered the entire bottom in stone. So they were just like living on stone. Yeah, they were they were in horrible shape. And when I when we harvested the rooster, his gizzard was full of automotive glass. Like yeah, it was fucked up. It was I spent because they all had they all had huge patches of them that like were bald. Um, I mean, we dealt with that partially by getting rid of the rooster and partially by making sure we gave them I was I still do mix in oyster shell bits with the the the calcium's good for them. Yeah. So you'll know if they need that like they start coming and it's actually really dangerous like an egg can wrap your inside of their laying it. Yeah. And that can be fatal. So you want to make sure. Um, if we just we can cover for a quick day, I guess. So they do like to grab for worms and stuff like that, right? Look for insects and they love to have scraps. But for laying chicken, you want to make sure it's getting a decent based diet of layers pellets, which should be like somewhere between 60 and 18% protein. We're sorry. What kind of pellets layer pellets? Yeah. There's a number of brands of it. But yeah, they're called layer pellets. Yeah. Some of them will already have oyster shell and grit. And like Rob said, they do need those. If not, you can augment them. But it's probably going to be easier to just get one sack. And just dump it all in. Um, they do need access to water as well, uh, that they can get out all day. Uh, I think it's better to use like a nipple type drinker, which is a, um, they've, you can take a bucket, any bucket, right? Fill it up and then you put these little nipples and they just cut their red. And again, they like to pack it red stuff so they'll pack at them and then they get, when that stops, like, you know, they can't put their feet in the water and get their shit from their feet in the water and get sick. Like, then they're not clean animals. So, uh, just if you do that. And then I like to put a little bit, it's hot where I live in San Diego. So I put a little bit of electrolyte stuff in there for them. Um, they don't seem to mind. Uh, it just seems to help. Um, and then yeah, like it's, it's good to, uh, you can feed them kitchen straps, but you don't want to overload them, especially on carbie stuff. Like they do need enough protein to keep up their laying and they, they definitely need enough calcium. Um, one thing I will say, if you're, if you're going to buy something, if you're going to buy a chicken coop, uh, there's a company called Eggloo, um, which is the eggloo, but egg, uh, they make some really nice, pretty faboops that are pretty good. Um, and you can buy an attachment, which puts a little door on it that, uh, it uses a solar panel, a guest to charge itself and then it will open at daylight and close at sunset. And so if you're the sort of person who knows that you'll forget to bring your chickens in and obviously they're, you know, they're at risk at night from predation and things and they, uh, they, they become completely fucking useless at night. Like when they go to sleep, you can pick them up and turn them upside down and stuff. Like, yeah, my interior, the, the interior of my coop has, it's really cute. It's basically like a ladder, like a, like a very wide ladder going up the side of the building. And they just all stand on like it is like a group of 20, like a different levels of the ladder. And it's that there as they, as they sleep at night. Yeah. They need a very cute, sweet bun. Actually that's a good reminder. Yeah, you can't just run a floor. Yeah, they don't like just being in the dirt. No. And then like something to entertain them. So a good thing to entertain them is, like, oh, if you have CDs still, uh, young listeners may not remember having CD collections. But if you do have CDs or, you know, you can find CDs, um, you can just hang those and they'll pack at them and stuff because they're kind of shiny and they move around. So it's a thing to do with your allowance, Mara says. Yeah. And they also really like, I mean, one of the things that, so I just tore out my, what was left of my front lawn in order to grow more stuff. And I just tossed all of the, um, the chunks of like soil and grass in there. They love pecking at that shit. It's like one of their favorite things in the world. Yeah. We put them on, I have some planters out back and, uh, they're like fence-dolphps that you can scan again. And then when we turn them over, when we like replant them, we'll put them in there. And they just go, huh, but they find these huge worms. I have no idea how they go in there. No. But yeah, they love that stuff. Yeah. And I let them out into the yard periodically and it's always whenever I have to like walk them back in because you kind of just like loop around them to like guide the flock as they move. Yeah. And they'll kind of instinctively go away from you if you're walking towards them. Um, one of my, one of my hobbies is to like pretend to be an old. Oh, what's going on? I feel like we should stop this immediately. Yeah. Yeah. Buy some gold. Okay. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I pretend it's the Shawshank redemption, which is why I've given my chickens a boat by the coast. We're trapped here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can look up. They're a pretty good like a calculator's online where you can look up how many square yards or whatever you have the unterrible estimating size, but you know, my I don't have very big garden, you know, we've, we've had up to six chickens, but you do want to just look it up. And and it's not like the square yardage you have isn't as important as the access I have to stuff, right? Yeah. Can they get sunlight? Can they be like out in in the dirt? Yeah. like where a chicken would want to be. But no, this is like not something you could burn from it in an apartment, right? No. No, no, no, no, no. It needs to be outside. Yeah. If you live in an apartment that has a yard or something that shared you potentially could, but no, you do need like some amount of dirt and grass. Essentially. If you maybe have a community garden, you could talk to people about doing it there, like, so mine just go all around my yard all day, and like, you guys have noticed also coming to my office. And then they'll put themselves to bed at night, they know where their home is. So they'll just go back to bed at night. I want to talk a little bit about health, because there are definitely some chicken health things. And look, just it's very expensive to take chicken sort of that actually, because you have to go to an exotic and avian vet, and they're quite rare. Oh, what about exotic and avian vet? Boy, yeah. You could take them to a regular vet, but most of the time, so actually if your chickens get sick, in most states, there's a state-run help line you can call, and it's free, and they'll put you onto a vet right away. Yeah. And they're very, very helpful. And then the reason. And the reason for the danger of different avian flu's, like infecting large numbers of animals. Yeah, it does something similar to pet insurance exist for farm-peeps farm animals or not really. It does, but I don't think you probably wouldn't want to be investing in that for your chickens. I keep you breeding livestock. Right. And that's the thing you can have. And one of the things you do have to keep in mind is that at some point, you will have to kill them, because they will get old enough or sick enough. And some form of euthanasia will wind up being kinder than continuing to let them be. Like that's true of any kind of livestock. At some point, you have to, if you don't just want to let it die naturally, which again, in a lot of cases, will be prolonging its suffering. You do have to be willing to take care of that one way or the other. Yeah. Like you can give them the best life. You can give them and look off the impure things you can. But oftentimes, yeah, they will. Although they'll get hurt, right? Like if some of them don't get injured. Yeah. I think it's a good reality to remind people of that. It's actually like a serious thing to have a chicken and then be responsible for its life and death. And also like the egg comes out of their bubble, right? So it's covered in food. Yes. Well, I'm just saying, it's not just like cartoon chicken, like, you know what I mean? Like I think I had to be able to have that one. Yeah, it's not that game that everyone played in COVID where you're in the island and you build stuff. Yeah. And I just think people usually are really flippant with stuff like animals, you know? It's a living animal and like you have to take care of it. And it's your responsibility, right? Let's say like you need to think about that. Oh, you don't want to let the bum holes get too poopy. We're talking about health. So they can get worms that way and that's really bad. So if you see that, just pick them up and they'll be, that's just why you want to handle them when they're young so that you can handle them with stuff like this. So like I'll just pick them up and use a spray bottle or a little hose with a bit of warm water and they don't mind that at all. And at least they don't give me any shit. And but you want to look up some of the common things you're going to see, gateworm, it's called gateworm because they'll gate you'll see them gaping. They can be egg bound. And then depending on where you are, they can be too hot or too cold. So you do need to make sure they have shade. I found this thing. I found it. Someone was moving out. It's like a, it's like a mister that they have at restaurants. You know, when you go to a restaurant in LA and it's hot, and it's like the stuff of annoying wetness. What? Yeah. That's a thing. Yeah. Have you ever been to like an amusement park in like a line sometimes have them too? It's really hot, misty. Well, sometimes it would be like fruit and vegetables when you're just in the market. There, but that's the only, that's, huh. That's how they have. They have. Yeah, they have that on the restaurants. Not inside. Outside. Outside. Yeah. There's mysteries to make it. If you're in like Phoenix or somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I got one of those. You can find a lot of this shit, by the way. Like if you live in a place that is gentrifying, like unfortunately, this happened in the pubs, I'd say, I live in. Like, for instance, all the wood for my chicken can get one pay for that shit. Like there's rich people doing stuff to houses. It doesn't need to be done. Just like obtain wood from their building sites. Yeah. And obtain. Yeah. Look, it's like those cowl to bricks. If they didn't want you to use them, they wouldn't leave it out there. Yeah. And why would it live with Warren? Have sent the pallets to bricks, which didn't want you to use it. And so, yeah, obviously like health wise, like I said, you want to make sure you have that purple spray on hand. You want to be giving them some electrolytes in their water. You want to make sure they have shade if it's hot. And that the coop is warm. They don't like it much below freezing. That's like 32. Yeah, you, I keep like a heat lamp basically. I'll winter in there with a red bulb so it doesn't like upset their, their sleep patterns. Yeah. So people, the way battery people do it, like battery chickens, is they, they, they do more day night cycles using artificial light to make the chickens lay more. If you see what I mean, and the chickens will lay in an accelerated rate. Yeah. They'll keep them laying during the winter at a lower rate. Be doing that. That's not particularly good for the birds. I let them rest this winter. Yeah, let them, you know, they're animals. They, you know, they don't just exist to provide you food. Like, okay, a question on this, like how cold, is there like a point it gets in the winter where it's like you probably shouldn't have them. You just want to keep the coop warm. And then like, yeah. So like when we were at tenacious unicorn ranch, right? And they have chickens. I don't know how cold it was, but I went to bed every night with a Nal gene full of boiling water. And when I woke up, I was hugging an ice baby. It was at home. Wow. Yeah. The heater where I was staying in work the first time. So like it was cold AF. And the chickens had a nice warm coop with a heat lamp and they were fine. Yeah, you can, I mean, people keep chickens in every imaginable climate. So you, yeah. As long as you're careful about making sure, you know, that you have a warm place for them to sleep, they will be okay. Yeah. And you couldn't, can you let them out in the snow and stuff? Or should you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They have fun with that. It snowed yesterday and my chickens are having a great time out. Oh, yeah. They like it actually. Like they'll run, like I remember at home, my chickens love this snow. And yeah, and talked when you're buying the chickens, right? Like consider that in your breed choice. Like some of you are going to do bad coats. And they're going to do some of them again and not like heat. And honestly, like one of the better things you can do in that situation, if you're like, I live in some weird ass part of the world where it's freezing half the time, just Google, like keeping backyard chickens, whatever the name of your area is and then Reddit. And yeah, you will find people talking on Reddit. Yeah, yeah, I've got this is the, this is the breed that I picked and this is what I do. And you know, people have to talk about their chickens. So yeah, it's a backyard chicken to Reddit. It was one of my resources. Yeah, exactly. It's a good place to look. Yeah, so if you have a coop, you're going to want to clean it, right? You can use that chicken poop as fertiliser. Oh, it's some of the best in the world. Yeah. So then if you're into this sort of, you know, like growing your own food, then this all works well, right? You give the chicken to scraps, chicken to make your eggs, they poop. You put that into your plants, you have nice plants. You want to balance it out. It's a bit acidic. I think you're just using the shit so you want to be composting with other stuff as well, right? Yeah. Checking your soil chemistry before you sort of go ham. But yeah, so you can do that. You do want to make sure, yeah, I've got a poultry help line. We spoke about that. California's is great though. Like don't hesitate to call the poultry help line. And if you need help, like there's just people who are being paid to help you. And like that is normally, like, I know like most pet owners, unless they're very wealthy, will have had to make horrible decisions about their pets health versus their own income when they've like, you know, and it's shit. So that help line is free. And like Rob has said, it's because they're very scared of infectious diseases. So take advantage of like your, you know, taxpayer funded chicken bet. And yeah, give them a call. I think I don't know if it's at every state, but I know it's a lot of them. Yeah, wait. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, um, are you gonna talk about a giving them like the shaken bake treatment for, what do you call it? If they get a mites. Oh, yeah, yeah, go ahead and talk about it. So, you know, chickens can get, there's like a skin, but it's a, it functions similarly to like a skin infection. There's like little mites that will get on them. You'll notice bald patches. It can be, I mean, it's bad for their health, obviously like it, you would not want to be covered in mites. And so there's, there's this kind of mite killer called Promethrin. And the way that you, you can apply it in a number of ways, but you basically need to coat the entire chicken. It's essentially a white powder. So what we did when we had to do it is we just took a giant, a large feedback and we filled it with Promethrin. And we, we put the chickens in it once at a time. We just kind of like give them a little shake. So they got covered. And so you're shaken baking all of them. And then they're just like wandering around confused and covered in this white powder. Like what the fuck happened? It's just, it's very funny. It's very funny. It's very fun. I mean, it's just, it's the best way because they get covered very quickly that way. Like it, there's, you know, with mites and dust and stuff. If you do want to make sure that the weather living is not too moist or not too dusty, because they can get like respiratory conditions from that. So you don't, yeah, you want to make sure that, you know, they're living in a nice environment. And they also look at the biggest health thing you're going to see is that they will pack in each other, right? Especially when you first get your birds, they're going to establish what's called a packing order. And which, you know, people have used herd and used an other bed, literally an order in which they get to do it. Well, I didn't know the meeting. I didn't understand what that met completely until right now, this moment. Oh, that's my gift to you. Very helpful today. A lot of learning. Yeah, it's what they call a knowledge transfer. The, yeah, so they'll do that. They'll pack, right? They'll establish an old one. When you get a new bird, you don't really want to introduce one new bird at once, right? So say, this is how you get fucking conned into having bantams because let's say your, your garden can support four chickens and then one of your girls dies and you're sad and you want to get more birds. So you're like, well, we can't, we can't go to five full-south chickens so we'll get bantams for like two half-sized chickens. And that is good for the social dynamic because they won't, won't get picked on, won't be like the new girl and then they, they like pick on her. But then you've got bantams and then you do just, I don't know, I'm not, no, it's not very pro-bantam. They, they're just difficult. Right, so how do they establish the pecking order? They peck at each other and then- Peck at each other, yeah. And what, what basically one of the- Well, it's just like any other physical confrontation like they, they peck at each other and like, okay, well, you're harder than me. Like, I can't, you know, I'm not here for that. The back down. So at times they will really start picking on one and then you do have to separate them for a while. So you just gotta watch out for that and you're gonna be vintage and- And when you first get them, you're gonna be excited and you're gonna wanna go outside and I can interact with them. So you're gonna be watching that anyway. So just, you know, make sure you have treats and stuff and separate them. And don't be scared, like, they can't hurt you. They're chickens, but yeah, it's normal for them to peck at each other. You gotta keep an eye out for if they do draw blood. They wanna grow up and say, they are fucking dinosaurs. And they will just hone in on that. So that's when you have to separate them or come in with your purple spray. So yeah, you just have to make sure that you're aware of that. And- You said that they pecked at your leg when it was bleeding, does that hurt? A little bit, like it's just a peck. Do it recreationally. Yeah. Maybe some people would, you know, you can, I'm not going to yuck your yum. Yeah. So if you are- Like if you are turned on by the peck by chickens, it's not like full body attack. I walk in every day to feed my chickens and I don't get pecked or anything. Like it's, they're fine. They're not like attack animals. And chickens, by the way, are like every other creature. Some of them are assholes, right? Like, is there any kind of animal that you have and any, like just like people- Their personalities. Some of them are dicks. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like on that subject, I was a few years ago I was writing about rattlesnake behavior for a story and there's this one fucking rattlesnake, which literally every time I ride past it, it's just like, bam! Like, it will fucking try, like I've talked to a snake behavior expert and he's like, yeah, man, that one's an asshole. And then some of the mergers jackasses. Don't know what to tell you, dude. Yeah. Just come across a bell in like it is what it is. Um, so yeah, if you sometimes you just going to have a chicken, which is mean, you just gotta hope it doesn't, you know. You gotta make your choice then, right? If it's really causing chaos and a flop, like what are you gonna do with it? Yeah. So that may be a chicken that you eat. Yeah. Which by the way, one of the things you learn keeping chickens is how wildly we have fucked up the chickens that we use for meat. Cause like a normal chicken does not produce breast meat. That is that size. Like it is the size of like a normal grocery store chicken breast. Those are from monsters that we made. Well, yeah, that's what made it like breast meat was popular. So they made that like they inserted like a horrible or whatever to make that part of the chicken grow. And I mean, I've seen videos of like the chicken toppling over because that's so heavy. Yeah, it's madness. Yeah, it's so sad. And Jones and hopefully develop like it's very cruel. Like I, um, it's fucked up. Yeah. I don't eat meat like I'm not really like downward the way the American commercial agriculture raised animals at all. I grew up on a farm. I could have raised animals. My home with you. I don't fucking touch. Yeah. Yeah. Cheap, cheap meat in the store. I understand other people do you go to feed your families whatever. And obviously one way or the other, if you're raising chickens like and you at some point, you know, the chicken is going to die. If it all possible, I think you do kind of have a responsibility to find some use for that meat. Yeah. It just said that sick in which case, you know, obviously if they get like, yeah, I had to kill two last year because they got like some sort of avian flu. Yeah. So if you get people will come and take them away and do an autopsy if they do get sick like that. And so that's nice to know because then you have, you know, do I have to worry about the rest of my flock? Yeah. What is this? Is there something in the soil? Is something I'm feeding them? You know, you can, if you have concerns about that, it's nice to have them do that. Yeah. That's a really good note. But yeah, you, um, if you are responsible for them, like, and you have to give them the best types they can and the kind of death and, you know, you're responsible for some suffering, it's a little possible in their lives. We used to buy chickens when I was a kid from a guy who bred chickens for a battery farm and we'd go and get them as chicks and just be like, you, you, you, you, you are going to run around a farm or they'll have a wonderful life and I'm so sorry, the rest of you have this fucking horrible existence. Yeah. Uh, but it was nice to save some of them. So it's going to be hard to get chickens right now. So my last thing was really like when you're buying chickens, right, where you're going to get your chickens from. And so hopefully, you know, where you live, you have like a farm shop or a film. Steal them. Liberate them from a battery farm. Yeah. Shoot your way. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's worth it. They have a right to be able to probably. Well, I actually think people have literally gotten domestic terrorism charges for that. Yes. Well, I think it's pigs. Wasn't it that they got here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, chickens are not charismatic enough for people to go to the prison over. Yeah. I know it's unfair. It's unfair. It's racist really. Yeah. There's one thing we could tell you as a group of individuals legally responsible for what we say. It's, uh, I'm yourself in Liberate poultry. Yeah. That's your way in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the only, not the only, but the, the most concrete evidence of like dinosaurs have like now devolved into these chickens. You know what I mean? Like, that is so funny to me that out of all the animals, that is the closest that we have to a dinosaur that is tiny. They are dinosaurs. And again, their favorite food is their own kind. And also like, like, they will like every now and then I will give them some of their eggs just because it makes them so happy to eat. Well, I was going to ask like what, you said that it tastes different when you gave them meat. Like, what is the difference that you caught in the taste when they do eat their own eggs versus like just the feed? Oh no, I mean, they're, their own eggs don't, I've never fed them enough for it to be a meaningful component of their diet. They will eat scrambled egg and they'll call it cheese, I like to, you know, when they're sick. Can you, can you like, taste a difference? If you give them herbs, so like one thing that people do is give them little bundles of herbs. And you can taste that in the egg. Yeah. It just kind of richer, you know, when you, like you'll notice different, like if you, if they are calcium deficient, the eggs are really fragile. And if they have a shitload of calcium in their diet, like my eggs are, like, you have to like, you have to want to crack those fuckers. If you feed them flaxseeds, then the eggs have a higher omega three content. Like if you, it makes sense. Oh, wow. It makes sense. It's super interesting. You can give them flaxseeds and like that kind of thing, you can mess with their diet a bit and they, they like that stuff. So yeah, when you're buying them, what you want, I think is a beginner, is like a point of labored and you can, you just say point of lay. And that that's what they'll give you. You know, they're going to try and give you pull it. So they're going to try and say it's nice to raise chicks, but, and it is, it's really nice to raise chicks. But some of them will die and that will be upsetting for you. And it's hard. It's hard. Again, that's a general note. Any live time, if you, if you decide that you want to be a person who has livestock, you have to be okay with them dying. And it being an experience that is more direct to you than like, obviously it's, it's not as emotional as like when a cat or a dog dies, but it will not involve a vet with the kind of frequency that like a dying pet does, like you will have to deal with, you know, animals die because animals just die. Sometimes they wind up with the same kind of ailments people have or like an animal's heart will give out or something. And you didn't do anything wrong. It's just an animal was born with a heart defect, right? It's just like a thing that occurs if you have enough animals. Yeah. We used to say if you have livestock, you have dead stock one day. Yeah. It's just something you have to face up to. But like someone else is already doing that shit and they're probably doing it with less compassion than you've been. You're buying, you know, warm our eggs. So you, like I say, you, you, you can't, you're not God, but like you owe these animals a decent life and yeah, it's little suffering as you can. So yeah, by the point of lay chickens, make sure that they're sexed, right? You don't want to risk it. You might not legally be able to have a rooster. And then something like a dog container is fine. I bought them home in a shoe box before, like I'll just put them next to me in my truck and they're pretty chill. Like, you know, I give them a little bit of water in there, but generally they don't, you know, want to drink. You can kind of swaddle them. I've seen people swaddle them. And you know, if they're really panicking or whatever and swaddling is like when you rack them, like you would with a baby. Like a burrito. And people do that. I know when they have to move them in like a hurricane to try and calm them down, but I've always just put them in a dog container. Oh, are we going to talk about a storing eggs? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because people don't fucking, yeah, it's a weird American thing. Yeah, fuck. Yeah. So this doesn't happen in the rest of the world, but you guys get your eggs refrigerated. And that's because they're washed before they come to you. Yeah. You don't need to do this normally. No. You shouldn't wash your eggs nor should you refrigerate them just I have a little health of skeletal thing. It just looks like a spiral, right? And you put the egg on the top and it just rolls its little way down and it gets to the bottom. And that way I always take them from the bottom and that way I'm always sort of getting the oldest eggs first. So I don't end up with like one at the bottom of the basket, right? So you don't wash them. No, just just bring your feet in. No, not until you're ready to eat them. Obviously wash them before you cook them because some of them will have pooping stuff on them. Right. Before that just keep them normal. And then they're lost for months like that. Oh yeah. Well, I like. There are a couple of ways to obviously you could pickle them. Be very careful with that if you are canning them. I would recommend just pickling them and putting them in the fridge because eggs and like hard boiled eggs in particular are troublesome to can because there's always, if you think about hard boiled eggs, there's always like a little bit of cracks in like the white of the egg. That is where botulism can live. So be extremely careful if you are pickling eggs. Just I would recommend don't like, you know, can them specifically just pickle them and put them in the fridge and you know, the less a pretty good amount of time. Yeah. Pickled eggs are delicious. Yeah, it's wonderful. Is the thing about not refrigerating eggs? So do you actually still have to refrigerate like, if you use the store? Yes. Yes. You can in this country, yes. You can roll them in vegetable oil and I think ash, which replicates the way that they have a membrane on them. I didn't know who to about that. But very fair, like all intent. If you're buying them from... Is there a membrane on them? Yes. Yes. When they come out like a little pole, basically. Yeah. It kind of fills the pores on the outside of the egg, I think, because I understand it. So if you really wanted to store them, you didn't have access to refrigerator. You could do the oil and ash thing. You should look it up. The other thing you can do that is because again, if you have any quantity of chickens, there's a good chance that they will produce... I have a problem with this significantly more eggs than you can consume. An interesting way to... Are you going to talk about water glassing? Oh, no, talk about it now. Yeah. I'll do that. Yeah. You can look it up. I'm not going to give you a guide over this because preserving stuff is something that you should take care on. But you can Google water glassing. It's basically a way you can keep eggs for like up to a year that way. In like crackable, friable condition. But I think we are getting the note that James and I should stop talking about chickens for now. We'll continue in another episode. James and I will talk about chickens privately after this and you all aren't... I mean, James said it. People love to talk about their chickens. They do. They do. They're good to be... Love you to talk about chickens. Yeah. Maybe we'll start sidepokas for Patreon. Oh. Chicken cast. Chicken cast. Mm-hmm. Anyway, poultry pod. Until next time, take a lesson from the chickens and eat your own young. Okay. Oh my god. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen here as a production of CoolZone Media. For more podcasts from CoolZone Media, visit our website CoolZoneMedia.com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for it could happen here updated monthly at CoolZoneMedia.com slash sources. Thanks for listening. Paper Ghosts is a true crime podcast investigating the mysterious disappearance and brutal, unsolved murder of Tammy's Wiki. They just kept telling us from the beginning. She'll be back. She'll be back. We had no clue where she was. They didn't know where to begin looking. Tammy's story shocked the nation. The deeper I searched, the more troubling things I found. The best lead, the best evidence, the best witness was blown off. Listen to Paper Ghosts on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Have you ever watched the Exorcist and wondered are demons real? What we interviewed a leading exorcist to find out and the truth was shocking. Tell me who you are, the one who won't get out, the one who can't. Evitations, vomiting, spitting at the priest with an uncanny marksmanship. That has not been a movie for me. Listen to the Exorcist files on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Tobin. We know you've been pining for a brand new podcast hosted by a beloved television icon. And largely unknown talk radio hosts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote that. Pine no more because we're the hosts of really no really. The funny informative show that seeks the answers to things that make us say, real no, really, you'll lay off your learn and we'll get paid. That's really no really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts. And anybody who uses the word pining, let me know because I don't think it's very sticky. Y