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It's autumn time to get cozy and nothing is cozier than one of Casper's award-winning mattresses. Of course, they've got their most popular mattress. The original hybrid, it's engineered for cool, comfortable sleep. You can get a more restful and more soothing night sleep if it's a little warm in your August with the wave hybrid mattress, which provides more support than foam alone. Or upgrade to the wave hybrid snow mattress with snow technology to give you a full night of cooler sleep if you need to try it to believe it, Casper offers free contactless delivery and a risk. Free Hundred night trial. Discover the Casper difference today at casper.com and use code here 100 for $100 off select mattresses that's code HERE 100. Thatcasper.com for $100 off sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kapal Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books through your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode, so every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Hello and welcome to. It could happen here. I'm your host today. It's shereen. And I'm going to be flying solo for the next few episodes. We are going to be talking about Syria. Spoiler alert, I am Syrian, and I think there's a lot of history and news about Syria that really goes under the radar and not a lot of people know about, so I thought it would be. Important to shed some light about. How Syria became ruled by a dictatorship family. The Assad family have destroyed Syria. Imagine a country being run by the mafia. They're very powerful, very secretive, very, very rich. There are no numbers that can illustrate the scale of Syria's loss and destruction, literally, because the United Nations hasn't been able to calculate the death toll for years. So as I mentioned, these episodes are going to be about Syria. The first two will be about how hop is Assad rose to power, which has since led the Assad family to have control over Syria for more than half a century. And then the one following that will be about his son Bashar, who is the current dictator of Syria. And that one will have more topical information, maybe more like economic stuff versus historical information, which we're going to start with, but I think understanding the history of the Syrian government. Provides vital context to understanding the present and there is a lot to cover here and a lot that I won't be able to get to, but hopefully we can chip away at it. And this is a good semi coherent summary of how Hoff has climbed his way to the very top of Syrian authority. So the Assad's an Arabic, it's Assad. So apologize. It's like go back and forth between those two. But they're from Canada, originally a village in northwest Syria in the serial coastal mountains. The family name Assad goes back to 1927 when Ali Suleiman, who was half as Assad's father, changed his last name to al-Assad, which is Arabic for the lion. People say this is possibly in connection to his social standing as a local mediator and his political activities. All members of the extended Assad family stem from Ali Suleiman and his second wife, Lisa. The Assads are Shia Muslims, more specifically of the Alawite sect. Alawites are a religious minority and they initially opposed a United Syrian state because they thought their status as a religious minority would endanger them and Hafiz's father. He shared this belief after the French left Syria in 1946. Many Syrians mistrusted the Alawites because of their alignment with France. Hafez eventually left his Alawite village, beginning his education at age 9 in Latakia, which had a Sunni majority. He became the first of his family to attend high school, and while he was an education, he lived in a poor, predominantly Alawite part of the Tachia. To fit in, he approached political parties that welcomed Alawites. These parties which also embraced secularism, worthy Syrian Communist Party, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, the SNP and the Arab Bath party. Bath is bias in Arabic, but we know it as bath. It's spelled BA, apostrophe, Ath. English. And he joined this political party in 1946. Some of his friends belonged to the SNP and the Bath party, embraced a Pan Arabist socialist ideology, and he proved to be an asset to the party. He organized both student cells, and he carried out the party's message to poor sections of Latakia and to Alawite villages. He was opposed by the Muslim Brotherhood, which at the time allied itself with wealthy and conservative Muslim families, Assad's high school. Accommodated students from rich and poor families and he was joined by poor anti establishment Sunni Muslim youth from the Bath Party. In confrontations with students from wealthy brotherhood families, he made many Sunni friends and some of whom later became his political allies. While he was still a teenager, Assad became increasingly prominent in the party as an organizer and a recruiter, and he was the head of his school student affairs committee from 1949 to 1951, and he was also the President of the Union of Syrian. Students during his political activism in school, he met many men who would later serve him when he became president. And reading about this, I mean, I'll be honest, and I learned a lot, even preparing for these episodes. It's so interesting because you read about this man and on the surface he seems not too bad when he started out. Like his ideas aren't terrible. I I think power eventually corrupts everybody. And I I just have so many questions and thoughts about how someone becomes evil. I mean, that's such a blanket, like maybe like make believe, way to describe someone. But the things that the Assad family eventually does is horrific, and it's interesting to see where this man started as a child, as a teenager. On one hand, it humanizes him. On the other hand, it just shows how much he had changed. And maybe he was always this way and it's just on paper. Doesn't seem so bad. I don't know. Sorry tangent, let's continue. So after he graduated from high school, Assad aspired to be a medical doctor, but his father could not pay for his studies. So instead, in 1950 he decided to join the Syrian Armed Forces. He entered the Military Academy in Humps and the Flying school in Aleppo, and then he graduated in 1955, after which he was commissioned a Lieutenant of the Syrian Air Force. He married Anisa Manhoef in 1957, who is a distant relative of the powerful Maloof family. In 1955, the Syrian military split in a revolt against then President Adib Al Shishakli, which led Hashim El Atassi to take power as president. He had been president before, and Syria was again under civilian rule. So after 1955 El Atassi who in English both him and eshakti they removed the in front of their names so you'll see just Atassi or Shishakli. So when I say those, that's what I mean. It's just it's hard to break when when you this is like the language in your head sometimes, but I got to stop with these tangents. See this is my first cell episode and this is what you get, but after 1955's hold on the country. Was increasingly shaky as a result of the 55 election. Al Atassi was replaced by Shukri al Kuwaiti, who was president before Syria's independence from France. The Baath Party grew closer to the Communist Party at this time, but not because of shared ideology, but rather a shared opposition to the West. At the Military Academy, Assad met Mustafa Tlass, which will be his future Minister of Defence. Assad was then sent to Egypt for a further six months of training, and when Jamal Abdel Nasser did, president of Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal and 56 Syria feared retaliation from the United Kingdom and Assad flew in an air defense mission. He was among the Syrian pilots who flew to Cairo to show Syria's commitment to Egypt in 57. As squadron commander, he was sent to the Soviet Union for training and flying MIG Seventeens, which I looked up, and it's a high subsonic fighter aircraft that was produced by the Soviet Union from 52 onward and operated by Air forces internationally the more you know. But essentially he went to the Soviet Union to train and flying these things for 10 months. Let's go back to 58. Nope, we're not going back. We're going forward. In 1958, Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran and Pakistan and Turkey. In 1958, Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic UAR, separating themselves from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Turkey, and these countries were aligned with the United Kingdom. This pact led to the rejection of Communist influence in favor of Egyptian control over Syria. All Syrian political parties, including the Baath Party, were dissolved and senior officers, especially those who had supported the communists, were dismissed from the Syrian Armed Forces. Assad, however, remained in the army and quickly rose through the ranks. After reaching the rank of captain, he was transferred to Egypt, continuing his military education with the future president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak. However, Assad was not content with a professional military career. He viewed it merely as a gateway to a career in politics, AKA power. After the creation of the UAR, the Baath Party experienced a crisis for which several of its members, mostly young members, blamed the party leader, who at the time. Was Michel Aflaq. He was a Syrian philosopher and sociologist and an Arab nationalist, and his ideas played a significant role in the development of Baathism and its political movement. He's considered by several Baathists to be the principal founder of Baathist thought so. He had some opposition, however, because after the creation of the IR there was some unrest. Teresa wrecked the Syrian national branch of the party. Assad joined others in establishing the Military committee. In 57 and 58, Assad rose to a dominant position in the Military committee, which mitigated his transfer to Egypt. After Syria left the UAR in September of 61, Assad and other brothers officers were removed from the military by the new government in Damascus, and he was given a minor clerical. Position at the Ministry of Transport Assad played a minor role in the failed 1962 military coup, for which he was jailed in Lebanon and then later repatriated. That year Michel Aflaq, the bath party leader, convened the Fifth National Congress of the Baath Party, where he was re elected as the Secretary General of the National Command, and then he ordered the reestablishment of the parties Syrian regional branch. There there's a lot of congresses, there's a lot of branches, there's a lot of committees. It gets really confusing, just these men shutting down and then reigniting these things. So bear with me here. At this Congress, the Military Committee established contacts with Aflac and the civilian leadership. The committee requested permission to seize power by force, and Aflac agreed to this conspiracy. After the success of the Iraqi coup led by the bath parties Iraqi regional branch, the military committee hastily convened to launch their own Bathurst military coup in March of 1963 against President Nazim Elxsi, which Assad helped plan. Help plan this coup during this cue, he led a small group to capture the Dummynet air base about 25 miles north of Damascus. Assad's group was the only one that encountered resistance. Some planes at the base were ordered to bomb the conspirators, and because of this, Assad hurried to reach the base before dawn. Because the 70th Armored Brigades surrender took longer than anticipated, however, Assad arrived there in broad daylight when Assad threatened the base commander with shelling. The commander negotiated a surrender. Later, Assad claimed that the base could have easily withstood his forces, so his bluff worked. And this garnered him a lot of respect. Not long after Assad's election to the regional command, the military committee ordered him to strengthen the committee's position in the military establishment. In doing so, Assad may have received the most important job of all. Because his primary goal was to end factionalism in the Syrian military and make it a bath monopoly. He said he had to create a ideological army. To help with this task he recruited Zeki Al Arusi, who was the person who actually indirectly inspired him to join the Bath party in the 1st place. When he was young arsuz I accompanied Assad on tours of military camps where Arsuz I lectured the soldiers on Bathurst thought and gratitude for his work. Assad gave her Susie a government pension and Assad continued his bath ification of the military by appointing loyal officers to keep positions and ensuring that the political education. The troops was not neglected. He demonstrated his skill as a logistical leader during this. And he was said to have a highly intelligent mastery of detail, which garnered him a lot of respect. And I want to make this clear. I talked to my mom's a bit about this and doing this research and have said was very smart. He was known as a very smart man. He knew what he was doing at every turn, despite what it seems like. It's like he just fell into his lap or like. And later you'll see that the president he he overthrew had no idea he had didn't see him as a threat, but. I mean, before and after he took power, he was known to be very cunning and so. Yeah, I just think that's an important little. Umm. Bing to take note of, even in school they were saying that he was an excellent student. So he has a plan, I think, for most of this. But let's take a little break and we'll be right back to finish this up. We'll this part, I mean, OK, whatever. I'm sorry. Bye. We're back. Wow. OK. So after he had been bath ifying the military, he was promoted to major and then to Lieutenant Colonel. And by the end of 1964, he was in charge of the Syrian. Air Force as the Air Force commander, Assad gave privileges to Air Force officers, and he appointed his confidants to senior and sensitive positions, and he established an efficient intelligence network. Air Force intelligence, under the command of Mohammed El Houli, became independent of Syria's other intelligence organizations and received assignments beyond Air Force jurisdiction. Assad prepared himself for an active role in the power struggles that were soon to come. As I said, he's cunning. He knows what he's doing. In the aftermath of the 1963 coup at the first regional Congress, Assad was elected to the Syrian regional Command, the highest decision making body in the Syrian regional branch. It's so confusing I can't keep track. And while this was not a leadership role, it was Assad's first appearance in national politics, which is a significant thing to point out because as you'll see, it only grows. During the 1964 Hama riot, Assad voted to suppress the uprising violently. If needed, this decision to suppress the hammer Riot led to conflict within the military committee, which I'm going to skip over because it's a more cluster ***** than ever. But ultimately, in 65, the eighth National Congress. During this, Assad was elected to the national command, the party's highest decision making body. I know I just said that about something else, but that was about the Syrian regional branch. There are a lot of parties and commands and branches and committees. As I said, just know that it's a group of men, probably, that just make decisions. But he was elected to this highest making body, this this party of people, and it said that Assad abhorred Affleck, the party leader of the Baathist party. Assad considered Aflak a autocrat and a rightist, accusing him of ditching the party by ordering the dissolution of the Syrian regional branch in 58. In response to the eminent coup that was about to happen, that Assad knew was going to happen, he left for London. In the 1966 Syrian coup, the Military committee overthrew the National command. The coup led to a permanent split in the both movement and the advent of NEO baptism, as well as the establishment of two centers of the International Baathist Movement, 1 Iraqi and the other Syrian dominated. After the coup, Assad was appointed Minister of Defense. This was his first cabinet post, but despite his title, he actually had little power in the government and took more orders than he gave. Salah Hadid, who helped Assad establish the military committee years prior, was the undisputed leader at the time, and he opted to remain in the office of Assistant Regional Secretary of the Syrian Regional Command instead of taking executive office, which had historically been held by Sunnis. Jadeed trying to establish his authority focused on civilian issues and gave Assad de facto control of the Syrian military, considering him no threat at all. During the failed coup of late 1966, Salim Hatum tried to overthrow Shadid's government. Hathum was a military officer and he felt snubbed when he was not appointed to the regional command after the 66 coup and he sought revenge and the return to power of Hamoud Al Shafi, who was the first regional secretary of the regional. Command after the era and regional branches reestablishment in 63. Oh my God, so many branches and everything, I'm just can you just decide on one group? Anyway, when Jadid Atassi and the regional command member Jamil Shaya. Visited the city of Suwayda. The forces loyal to Hathum surrounded the city, and they captured them. The city's Druze leaders forbade the murder of their guests and demanded that Hatoum wait, so Jadid and the others were placed under house arrest, with Hatoum planning to kill them at his first opportunity because he wanted revenge. When word of the mutiny spread to the Ministry of Defense, Assad Assad ordered the 70th Armored Brigade to the city of Sweida. By this time, Hathum, who was a Druze, knew that Assad would order the bombardment of Sueda, which was a Druze dominated city, if Hatoum did not accept Assad's demands. So this led to Hatoum and his supporters to flee to Jordan eventually, where they were given asylum. But due to his prompt action and his protection of Shadid and the other members that were captured, Assad earned jadeed's gratitude after this incident. So I know I just casually mentioned this word a minute ago. And so just to the people that aren't aware of what it means, no, again, a lot more to delve into than what I'm just going to say right now. But Drews are members of an Arabic speaking ethnoreligious group originated in Western Asia. They're largely in Lebanon and Syria now, and they originally developed out of Shia Islam. Even though most Druze members, or most Druze rather, do not identify as Muslim, they practice their own religion. That is called druidism. I've been trying to say that word for a long time. Daniel cut out me saying it a bunch of times. I apologize that I probably mispronounced it, but the point is they practice their own sect of religion that originated from the. Shia Islamic sect way back when, but at this point they're their own religious group. So moving on, I just wanted to shed light on that word in case people didn't know. Back to Syria. So after this incident took place, and after Assad basically came to the rescue, Jadid had a lot of gratitude for him. And continuing. In the aftermath of the 66 coup attempt, Assad and Jadid purged the parties military organization. Assad removed an estimated a 400 officers, and this was Syria's largest military purge to date. But the purges which began when the Baath Party took power in 63 had left the military week. And as a result, when the six day war broke out, Syria had no chance of victory. I feel like this is maybe a good place to say goodbye for the day. I thought it would be more digestible if these episodes were shorter instead of being an epic tale that could run over an hour. But yeah, let's say goodbye. This is Shereen, this is it could happen here. Hear you tomorrow, talk to you tomorrow. Why do I have this job? OK. Goodbye. Football is back, and bet MGM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. You'll also have instant access to a variety of parlay selection features, player props, and boosted odd specials. Just download the bet MGM app today or go to betmgm.com and enter a bonus code champion and place your first wager. Risk free up to $1000 the bet MGM app is the perfect way to experience the excitement of wagering on live sports now in more markets than ever. Visitbetmgm.com for terms and conditions must be 21 years of age or older to wager Virginia only new customer offer. All promotions are subject to qualification and eligibility requirements. Rewards issued as non withdrawable free bets or site credit free bets expire 7 days from issuance. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem call 1-888-532-3500. Your miraval mate courage already runs in your blood. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. Sisters of the Underground is a new scripted series about fearless women exploring the life and legacy of the Mirabal sisters, Dominican women who were brave enough to challenge decades of oppression. Together, they led their country toward a revolution against Rafael Trujillo, the brutal dictator who ruled the Dominican Republic for 30 years. Please, please help us has blood on his hands. From executive producers Dania Ramirez and Eva Longoria. That's me comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on Tik T.O.K. You maybe even heard the rumors from your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade, we here at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions. Sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know. Now it's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. Wow. We're back. This is Shereen, and this is it can happen. If I have the name of the podcast this is, it could happen here. I'm so sorry, but last episode we talked about Syria and the history of how Hafez Assad eventually came into power and how he. Subsequently, let his family become dictators of this country. For over half a century and how they've destroyed it, but we are still in the 60s right now, so let's just continue from where we left off. Last time I had just ended mentioning the six day war and how Syria was defeated in the six day War. This is a topic that should be episodes all on its own, but just to very, very roughly summarize the six day war as it's called. It's also called the 1967 war and the June War. It's interesting because Israelis call it the six day war, and that's become the term that everyone uses, but differing terms for differing people, I suppose. But essentially, on June 5th of 1967, just three weeks after it marked the 19th anniversary of its founding, Israel went to war with the armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan and defeated them. Essentially. A very, very rough summary. And this led to Israel capturing, AKA stealing the Golan Heights from Syria. And the roots of this war go all the way back to the 40s. And there are. Moment in history that led up to this moment, but it was a huge turning point in Middle Eastern history, and the consequences of it are still felt today across the region. And the outcome of this war basically altered the map of the Middle East for the foreseeable future, and it's further blocked this path to any kind of potential peace between Israel and Palestine, and it just redrew the landscape of this conflict. And expanded Israel's territorial claims and military dominance in the region. They gained a lot of territory during this war and had the help of the UN behind them. So yeah, it's it was not good for Arab countries so much more to get into there. But this war, essentially when we're talking about Syrian history, changed everything and I mentioned earlier in the last episode that. When the Bath party took power in 63, there was some more purging of the Syrian military and Assad removed about 400 officers, which was the largest purge to date. But this had left their military week and obviously did not help them. And this June war. But yeah, there's so much more there. I will try to get into that later another time, but to the Arab defeat in this June war. Led to Israel stealing the Golan Heights from Syria and this provoked a furious quarrel among Syria's leadership. The civilian leadership blamed military incompetence and the military responded by criticizing the civilian leadership, which was led by Salah Jadid, who was the person that was ruling the country. He had the most power at this point. Several high-ranking party members demanded that Hafez Assad resign and an attempt was made to vote him out of the regional command. This motion was defeated by one vote and this man was Abdul Karim Al Jundi who the anti Assad members. They were hoping that he would succeed Assad as Defense minister, but he became the deciding vote and he said he did so in a comradely gesture. Remember this name, he will come back. But yes, Karim and Jundi made it so Assad wasn't voted out. During the end of the war, Hafez was approached by a dissident Syrian military officers to oust the government, but at the time he actually refused because he believed a coup during that time would have helped Israel, not Syria. Which is very interesting because he eventually took power by a coup, but he refused at first because of the timing being wrong again. I think this just demonstrates his. Unfortunately, high intelligence for someone so bad. Anyway, as I mentioned, this war was a turning point, and it was also a turning point for Assad and the Baathist Syria movement in general. It soon began a power struggle with Shadid for control over the country. Until then, Assad hadn't really shown ambition for high office, and he aroused little suspicion and others. No one really saw him as a threat. From the 1963 Syrian coup to the June War in 67, Assad did not play a leading role in politics, and he was usually overshadowed by his contemporaries. Patrick Seale was a British journalist and an author who specialized in the Middle East, and he wrote several books about the Assad family and Syria. And he said the Hafez was apparently content to be a solid member of the team without the aspiration to become number one. He also interviewed office at one point, so he has a lot of good information, this Patrick Seal, which I'll mention throughout. So although Jadid was slow to see Assad's threat. And although Assad didn't appear like he wanted power from the outside, shortly after the war Assad began developing a network in the military and promoted friends and close relatives to high positions. Assad believed that Syria's defeat in the June War was Jadid's fault and that the accusations against himself were unjust. By this time, Shadid had total control of the regional command, whose members supported his policies. But Assad and Jadid began to differ on policy. Assad believed that Jadid's policy of a People's War and armed guerrilla strategy and class struggle had failed Syria, undermining its position. Although Shadeed continued to champion the concept of a People's War even after the June War, Assad opposed it. He felt that the Palestinian guerrilla fighters have been given too much autonomy and their rating of Israel had made the war worse for the Arabs fighting. Shadid also had broken diplomatic relations with countries he deemed a reactionary, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, and because of this, Syria did not receive aid from other Arab countries. While Shadid and his supporters prioritized socialism and the internal revolution and quotes, Assad wanted the leadership to focus on foreign policy and the containment of Israel. The Bath party was divided over several issues, such as how the government could best use Syria's limited resources, the ideal relationship between the party and the people, the organization of the party and whether the class struggle should end. The conflict between Assad and Shadid became the talk of the army and the party. With a quote duality of power noted between them. By the 4th Regional Congress and the 10th National Congress in September and October of 68, Assad had extended his grip on the Army and Jadid still controlled the party. At both Congresses, Assad was outvoted on most issues, and his arguments were firmly rejected. The military's involvement in party politics was unpopular with the rank and file, as the gulf between Assad and Jadid widened the civilian and military party. Bodies were forbidden to contact each other. Despite this, Assad was winning the race to accumulate power, Munif added. Hazaz, who was ousted in the 1966 Syrian coup, noted that Shadid's fatal mistake was to attempt to govern the army through the party. Because Syria will always have. Their government is the military, essentially, is what I'm trying to say anyway. While Assad had taken control of the armed forces through his position as Minister of Defense, Shadid still controlled the security and intelligence sectors through Abdul Karim Al Jundi, who was the head of the National Security Bureau Jindi, who was a paranoid, cruel man. He was feared throughout Syria, especially later in his life. In February of 1969, the Assad Jadid conflict erupted in violent clashes through their respective prodigies. There was a fact that Assad, who is Assad brother and he was a high-ranking military commander and as jundi, so Elgendy was the protege of Shadid and Assad's brother Rifaat was his protege. So to say the reason for the violence was in fact LSU's suspicion that agenda was planning an attempt. And his brother Hoffis's life, the suspected assassin was interrogated and eventually confessed under torture. Acting on this information, affect argued that unless Jendi was removed from his post that he and his brother were in danger. OK, let's take a break. BRB, listen to this. And we're back. Wow. OK. Let's continue. From the 25th to the 28th of February in 1969, the Assad brothers initiated quote something just short of a coup. Under Assad's authority, tanks were moved into Damascus and the Staffs of two party newspapers, the Abbath and Athauda, as well as radio stations in Damascus and Aleppo, were replaced by Assad loyalists. Latakia and Tartus, which are two Alawite dominated cities. They saw fierce scuffles ending with the overthrow of Jadid supporters from local posts. Shortly afterwards, a wave of arrests in Jundi loyalists began. On March 2nd, after a telephone argument with the head of Military Intelligence, El Duba, it is said that El Jin D committed suicide. When I mentioned this to my mom, she said, well, that's what they say because originally I'm reading this. I'm like, OK, history. Obviously you have to remember that there's always someone that writes the history. So just putting that out there because she put that little nugget of information in my head, but as far as we're concerned in this summary. It is said that Jindi committed suicide after his loyalists began to be arrested and they were just continuing violence between his side and as I said. O this led to a sad now being in control. However, he hesitated to push his advantage. Jadid continued to roll Syria, and the regional command was unchanged. However, Assad influenced Jadeed to moderate his policies. Class struggle was muted, criticism of reactionary tendencies of other Arab states ceased. Some political prisoners were freed, a coalition of government was formed where the Bath Party was in control and the Eastern Front, supported by Assad, was formed. With Iraq and Jordan. Jadid's isolationist policies were curtailed, and Syria reestablished diplomatic relations with many of its foes, which is what Assad wanted. And while Assad had been in de facto command of Syrian policies since 1969, Shadid and his supporters still held the trappings of power. After attending Jamal Abdul Nasser's funeral in Egypt, he was the president of Egypt. Assad returned to Syria for the Emergency National Congress, where Assad was condemned by Shadid and his supporters, who still made out the majority of the party's delegates. However, before attending the Congress, Assad ordered his loyal troops to surround the building housing the meeting again. This guy thinks ahead. He's too smart. I hate him. He's dead, though, so whatever. I still hate you. So as he's being criticized and as he's being condemned, he has troops surrounding this building. And so the criticism of Assad's political position continued. But it had a defeatist tone, with the majority of delegates believing that they had lost the battle. And even though Assad was eventually stripped of his government post at the Congress, these acts had little practical significance. When the National Congress ended on November 12th, 1970, Assad ordered loyalists. To arrest leading members of Shadid's government. Although many mid level officials were offered posts in Syrian embassies and abroad, Shadid refused, saying if I ever take power, you will be dragged through the streets until you die. A sad, imprisoned Jadid in Mezzeh prison until his death, despite the intense *********** of everything that preceded this. Surprise, uh office's coup was actually calm and bloodless. When he eventually had his coup to take power and succeeded, the only evidence of change to the outside world was the disappearance of newspapers, radio stations and television stations. A temporary regional command was soon established, and on November 16th of 1970, the new government published its first decree. So only in a matter of days a lot can happen, man. According to Patrick Seale, Assad's rule quote began with an immediate, considerable advantage. The government he displaced was so detested that any alternative came as a relief. He first tried to establish national unity, which he felt had been lost under the leadership of Aflaq and Jadid. Assad differed from his predecessor at the outset, visiting local villages and hearing citizen complaints. The Syrian people felt that Assad's rise to power would maybe lead to change. And although Assad didn't democratize the country, he eased the government's repressive policies. At the time. He cut prices for basic foodstuffs 15%, which won him support from ordinary citizens. Shadeed security services were purged and some military criminal investigative powers were transferred to the police. In the confiscation of goods under Jadeed was reversed, restrictions on travel and trade with Lebanon were eased, and Assad encouraged growth in the private sector. While Assad supported most of Shadid's policies to begin with, he proved to be more pragmatic after he came to power. Let's take a little break here. We'll be right back to wrap this little history lesson U, and then you're free of Maine for the day, OK? So we're back before the break, we were talking about Assad coming into power and how his policies differed from Jadid, and how he made an effort to differentiate himself. However, most of Shadeed supporters they face a choice either continue working for the bath government under Assad or face repression. Assad had made it clear previously from the beginning that there would be no second chances in his words. However, in late 1970 he recruited support from the Bathurst Old Guard who had supported Aflac's leadership during the 1963 nineteen 66 power struggle. An estimated 2000 former Baptists rejoined the party after hearing Assad's appeal at the 11th National Congress. Assad assured party members that his leadership was a radical change from that of Jadid. And he would implement a quote corrective movement to return Syria to the true nationalist socialist line. A sad turned the Presidency, which had been known simply as quote Head of State under Shadid, into a position of power during his rule. As the President became the main source of initiative in the government, his personality, values, strengths and weaknesses became decisive forest direction and stability. Assad institutionalized a system where he had the final say, which weakened the powers of the collegial. Institutions of the party and state. As fidelity to the leader replaced ideological conviction later in his presidency, corruption became widespread, the state sponsored cult of personality became pervasive and as Assad's authority strengthened, he became the sole symbol of the government. And it sounds normal now I guess, when you think of like a dictator's face being plastered over buildings and stuff. But it was very much like that in Syria, and it still is as far as Bashar is concerned. But with Hafez, I mean. His image was plastered everywhere. You couldn't really escape it. He was the symbol of the Syrian government, and while Assad did not rule alone, he increasingly had the last word. None of the political elite would question a decision of his, and those who did were dismissed, removed from their positions and stripped of their power. When Assad came to power, he increased the Alawite dominance of the security and intelligence sectors to a near monopoly. The coercive framework was under his control, weakening the state and party. The leading figures of the Alawite dominated security system had family connections. Their fatal assault, for example, controlled the struggle companies. His brother and then Assad son-in-law, Aidan Makhlouf, was his second in command. As commander of the Presidential Guard, Assad controlled the military through the Alawites and the Alawites, with their high status. Appointed and promoted based on their kinship and favor rather than professional respect. Therefore, an Alawite elite emerged from these policies, with Assad and full control of the military and the Alawites holding all the power. Which is very interesting if you think back to the beginning of our first episode, where I mentioned that the Alawites are a religious minority and originally didn't have a lot of power in the government, and through Hafez Assad's coming into power, the Alawites are suddenly elite and in control. And it's a huge flip. From what it was decades prior, however, when Assad began pursuing a policy of economic liberalization, the state bureaucracy began to use their positions for personal gain. The state gave implementation rights, to quote much of its development program, to foreign firms and contractors, fueling a growing linkage between the state and private capital. Basically what ensued was a huge spike in corruption. The channeling of external money through the state to private enterprises, quote, created growing opportunities for state elites, self enrichment through corrupt manipulation of state market interchanges besides outright embezzlement, webs of shared interests in commissions and kickbacks grew between high officials, politicians, and business interests. The Allwhite military security establishment got the greatest. Share of the money, obviously, and the bath party and its leaders ruled a new class, defending their interests instead of those of the peasants and workers who they were supposed to represent. This, coupled with growing Sunni disillusionment with the regimes, mixture of sadism, rural and sectarian favoritism, corruption and new inequalities fueled the growth of the Islamic Movement. Because of this, the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria became the vanguard of anti Baathist forces. The Brotherhood had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction to the Syrian political scene during the 1960s. Under the leadership of Mustafa al Sibai. The Brotherhood had historically been a vehicle for moderate Islam during its introduction to the Syrian political scene during the 1960s. After Sabah's imprisonment, and under Essam Al Attar's leadership, the Brotherhood developed into the ideological antithesis of Baathist rule because of their organizational capabilities. The Muslim Brotherhood grew tenfold from 1975 to 1978. The Islamic uprising began in the mid to late 1970s with attacks on prominent members of the Baath Alawi elite. As the conflict worsened, a debate began in the party between hardliners represented by the fatal Assad and both liberals, represented by Mahmoud Al Ayubi. The 7th Regional Congress in 1980 was held in an atmosphere of crisis the party leadership. With the exception of Assad and his proteges were criticized severely by the party delegates who called for an anti corruption campaign, a new clean government curtailing the powers of the military security apparatus and political liberalization. The Sunni middle class and the radical left, believing that Bathurst rule could be overthrown with an uprising, began collaborating with the Islamists. And I mean, although they're called the Islamists, obviously they do not represent the entirety of Islam. Similar to Christian radical groups that hold on to the name Christian, they don't represent the entirety Christianity, Yada yada yada, body body blah. And although the word Islam is in the word Islamist, I want to draw attention to the fact that Islamism is not a form of the Muslim faith or an expression of Muslim piety. It is rather a political ideology that strives to derive legitimacy from. Slam. So it's about political strategies that believe in a revival or a return to authentic and quotes Islamic practice in this totality. So it's a political ideology, not necessarily a religion. I just want you guys to be aware of that because I think a lot of people don't understand what that means regardless, believing they had the upper hand in the conflict. Beginning in 1980, the Islamists began a series of campaigns against government installations. In Aleppo, the attacks became urban guerrilla warfare. The government began to lose control in the city. Those affected by Baathist repression began to rally behind the insurgents. The Bath party cofounder Salahudeen Elbittar supported the uprising, rallying the old anti military Bathurst together. The increasing threat to the government's survival strengthened the hardliners who favored repression over concessions. Security forces began to purge all state. Party and social institutions in Syria and were sent to the northern provinces to quell the uprising. When this failed, hardliners began accusing the United States of fermenting and provoking the uprising and called for the reinstatement of quote revolutionary vigilance. After a failed attempt on Assad's life in June of 1980, the government began responding to the uprising with state terrorism. Under a fatal essad, the Islamic prisoners at the Tadmor prison were massacred. Membership in the Muslim Brotherhood became a capital offence and the government sent a death squad to kill Babad and Athos, former wife. The military court began condemning captured militants, which sometimes degenerated into indiscriminate killings. Little care was taken to distinguish Muslim Brotherhood hardliners from their passive supporters, and violence was met with violence. So essentially, this just led the Assad regime to murder a bunch of people. Innocent, guilty, all of the above. So yeah. One of the many instances where the Assad regime was extremely violent and engaged in horrific state terrorism. So we're I'm wrapping up the end of this one and there's going to be a bit of crossover over this next event in the following episode. But the final, most atrocious violence conducted by the Syrian government during this time was the Hama massacre, which took place in February of 1982 when the government crushed the uprising helicopter gunships. Bulldozers and artillery bombardment raised the city, killing thousands of people. The bath government withstood the uprising and it made Syria more totalitarian than ever before, strengthening Assad's position as the undisputed leader of Syria. That is where I'm going to wrap up for the day. I did want to, I don't know, maybe just like set the tone for what office's rule was like. I talked to my mom and bit about this when I was preparing to record these, and she reminded me of a bunch of things that I had forgotten about. One was that I was in Syria when Hoffis was president, when I was younger, and I remember everyone being terrified to. Speak any kind of negative thing or even anything to each other. No one would dare speak a word on the phone. Definitely not loud to each other. There were all these whispers of the walls could hear you. No one trusted anybody. My mother described it as a culture of fear and it 100% was. That's how Hoffis ruled it was. Through fear, through like utter terror. And I just had forgotten a bunch of details about what I remember growing up in. Like the phone being this, like, you just assume it was always tapped. You assume anyone could always hear you. You can't trust anybody because you don't know what some will do with the information. And there was a bit more that she mentioned that I wanted to just highlight that I didn't know where to incorporate in that timeline, but when the Iran Iraq war happened, it was between 80 and 88 Hafiz. Ended with Iran. So after this, enduring everything was about supporting Iran. So all Syrian factories, all the food, it was all dedicated to war efforts to support Iran. My older sister at the time was a really picky eater and apparently one of the only things she ate were bananas. And my mom remembers that she couldn't find even the banana anywhere. Like everything was hard to come by. It was really desperate times, even after the war ended. And every election in quotes was fraudulent. It was a joke. My grandmother worked as a school teacher in Syria, and teachers are a civic position there really like most positions are governmental positions. And my grandma during these elections would throw out the nose and only include the yeses because the only option was yes or no if you wanted to continue office's rule or not. Those were the only two options, and she told us that the nose were discarded immediately and the only ones that were kept were the yeses. And eventually there was an election that determined that Hafez and his family would be in power forever and relabeled yahav. Assad was a phrase they used, and essentially this means until death or forever, you will be in power. It does have his name in there, but it implies his whole family, so it's just they gave him power forever. That is literally what that means. And yeah, I think. There's so much more to. Talk about here. And I would love for my mom to just give me more information about this that I can share eventually. There's just so much in this episode is already getting kind of long. So I'm going to wrap it up here. In the next episode, we'll be talking about Bashad and how he became the dictator of Syria and how he was even meant to be the president of Syria. And yeah, a lot of interesting history that leads to some topical information that I think is important. So see you there. If you want to but. Football is back, and better GM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. You'll also have instant access to a variety of parlay selection features, player props, and boosted odd specials. Just download the bet MGM app today or go to bedmgm.com and enter a bonus. Vote champion and place your first wager risk free up to $1000. The bet MGM app is the perfect way to experience the excitement of wagering on live sports now in more markets than ever. 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That's me comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of Michael Toura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on Tiktok. You maybe even heard the rumors from your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade we here at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions sometimes. Their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know. Now. It's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. Wow, it's me again. This is shereen. This is also, it could happen here. We've been talking about Syria for the last few episodes, and we're going to continue. And I'm just going to jump right in because there's a lot, OK. So this is a continuation about Syria and the terrible family that controls it, the assets, as I mentioned. In the previous episodes, the Assads have destroyed Syria and the death toll that they are responsible for is literally incalculable by the UN. But it's said to be nearing half a million people. Which is a lot of people. So Sam Dagger is a American Lebanese journalist and author who has lived and worked in the Middle East for more than 16 years. He was based in Damascus in the early years of the current war, before the government kicked him out in 2014. But he used his access to write about the inside story of the Assad family. He has a book titled Assad or We Burn the country, which I admittedly have not read. It's like 500 pages, but I did pull a lot of info from the book. And interviews that he's done about it, mostly in regards to the economic stuff that we'll get into later. But it was very helpful resource. When Dagger was in Syria, he saw this phrase Assad or we burn the country, which is the title of his book, all over the towns and neighborhoods that had been taken over by the regime, graffitied on walls probably by loyalists or government militias or whatever. Or, as people that love him, barf. And in this case they're talking about Bashar al-Assad, who is the son of the person we were talking about previously, hopeless said. But it essentially also includes the entire family. They are in power forever, and the Assad regime routinely takes over deserted, destroyed areas, and these government militias come in and loot the area until it's nothing but rubble, littered by things that are left behind as people are fleeing and things that these loyalists. Find useless like teddy bears and personal items that actually tell a really devastating story about the lives that used to occupy that space. Because these loyalists, these Assad obsessed freaks, they take everything that they deem worth looting, even things like tiles and doors. So you're left with these ghost towns. Literally, figuratively. The phrase Assad or we burn the country means exactly what it says it means that Bashar al-Assad and his family will remain in power, or else they will burn the country to the ground and burn everyone who opposes the Assad regime along with it. And although Bashad Assad has now been in power for 22 years, he was actually never meant to be in power. His father hopes Lassad appointed himself as president in 1971 after overthrowing the prior government through military coup bushara. Also succeeded his father in 2000 after his father's death, and it continued their family's hold on Syria and his people. 1990 was a very significant year. Not only was it the year I was born and that's why, but also the Soviet Union collapsed and the Berlin Wall fell and dictatorships were crumbling. The Soviet Union was seen as the main supporter or guardian of the Assad regime, but in 1990 it didn't exist anymore, so the Assad regime was suddenly in trouble, its priority. Was to present an image of reform and repackage itself so harvest Assad could hand down the power to his eldest son, Bassel. Assad and Basil was an army officer who was essentially brought up to eventually fill this role. Taking over for his father and his military background fit the image of this traditional leader of the Arab world because so many of these leaders took over by military coup or had a background of military. But before we get into all of that, let's go back in time a little bit and. Talk about what went down OA sort of. Succession crisis was triggered in November of 1983 when Hafez Assad, a diabetic, had a heart attack. On November 13th, after visiting his brother in a hospital, the fatal Essaid reportedly announced his candidacy for president. He did not believe that his brother would be able to continue ruling the country after this. When he did not receive support from Assad's inner circle, he made lavish promises to win them over. But apparently some believe that if it had been hoped. Besides first choice of successor, and it was an idea that some people say he broached as early as 1980 the fact that Assad was the younger brother of Hafez and he served as vice president. Many believe him to be the commanding officer responsible for the Hama massacre of 1982. I briefly mentioned this in the previous episode. At the end. It was a horrific massacre, and I think it especially is near to me because Hamma is my mother's hometown and it's probably my favorite place in the world. They have these water wheels that are like, I don't know, they're mesmerized me, but that's another story entirely. We can be all sappy at another time, but I did want to break up this massacre because most people have no idea that it even happened. In February 1982, as commander of the defense, companies that are fact allegedly commanded the forces that put down a Muslim Brotherhood revolt in the central city of Hama by instructing his forces to shell the city with rockets, and this killed thousands of its inhabitants. Reports range from between 5000 and 40,000, but the most common suggestion is around 15 to 20,000. Still a **** ton of people. And this became known as the Hama massacre. A declassified document from the Defense Intelligence Agency estimates the total number of casualties to be approximately 2000. However, US journalist Thomas Friedman claims in his book from Beirut to Jerusalem that in fact later said the total number of victims was 38,000 people. 38,000 people. The fact also played a key role in his brother Hoffa's overthrow of Saddam Shadid and the seizure of power 1970. This change in executive power is dubbed by some loyalists as the corrective revolution. Defat was allowed to form his own paramilitary group, the defense companies, in 1971, and this soon transformed into a powerful and regular military force trained and armed by the Soviet Union. He was a qualified paratrooper, and he ran the elite internal security forces and the defense companies in the 70s and early 80s. But things changed when Hoffa suffered a heart attack in late 83 as he was recovering Hoffis established A6 member committee to run the country, but a fact was not included. The Council consisted entirely of close Sunni Muslim loyalists to Hafez, who were mostly lightweights in the military security establishment. This caused unease in the Alawi dominated Officer corps, and several high-ranking officers began rallying behind their fat, while others remained loyal to Hoffa's instructions in March of 84 or fats troops, now numbering more than 55,000, with tanks and artillery, aircraft and helicopters. They began asserting control over Damascus. A squadron of Defrates tanks took position at the central roundabout of Cathouse in Mount Kassahun, overlooking the city, setting up checkpoints and roadblocks, putting up posters of him in state buildings, disarming regular troops and arbitrarily arresting soldiers of the regular Army, occupying and commandeering police stations and intelligence building, occupying state buildings. The defense companies rapidly outnumbered and took control over both the special forces. And the Republican guard? Although Damascus was divided between 2 armies and seemed to be on the brink of war, their father did not move. Hafiz was then informed that Refaat was heading to Damascus and he left his headquarters to meet his brother. British journalist Patrick Seale reports an intimate moment between these two brothers. He writes under Fox's home in message. The brothers were at last face to face. You want to overthrow the regime? Hoppus asked. Here I am, I am the regime. For an hour they stormed at each other. But in his role of Elder brother and with his mother in the house, Hafiz could not fail to win the contest, deferring to him at last as he had so often during their youths. Their fat chose to accept, although with some. Inward skepticism office has pledged that the trust between them would be restored and would be the basis of their future work. Together, there was a clear division and tensions between forces loyal to Hafez, namely the Third Armored Division, the Republican Guard, the various intelligence services, the National police, and the special forces. The defense companies were so loyal to the fat. In the middle of 84, Hoffis had returned from his sickbed and assumed full control. At which point most officers. Rallied around him. At first, it seemed like their fact was going to be put on trial. He even faced a questioning that was broadcast on television. However, it is believed the Harpaz's daughter, Bushra, actually saved her uncle by convincing her father that it would disgrace the family. It might cause tensions not only within the Assad family, but within the Maloof family as well. Both Hafiz and Nfat had married women from the Mahou family and they also just happened to be the second most prevalent Ilight family. I mean the leadership of the security services behind the Assads. In what first seemed like a compromise, their fact was made Vice President with responsibility for security affairs, but this proved to be simply a fancy title in post command of the defense companies was trimmed down to an armored division size and was transferred to another officer, and the entire unit was ultimately disbanded and absorbed into other units. Their fat was then sent to the Soviet Union in an open ending working visit, his closest supporters and others who had failed to prove their loyalty to Hafez. The purge from the Army and Bath Party in the years that followed. Upon his departure, Defat acquired $300 million of public money, including 100 million Libyan money, on a loan in 2015. He claimed that the money was a gift from Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia. And although the fact returned to Syria for his mother's funeral in 1992 and for some time lived in Syria, he was thereafter confined to exile in France and Spain. He nominally retained the post of vice president until February of 1988, at which point he was stripped of this title. He had retained a large business empire both in Syria and abroad, partly through his son summit, however, the 1999 crackdown involving armed clashes in the Takia. Destroyed much of his remaining network in Syria, large numbers of Rafat supporters were arrested. This was seen as tied to the issue of succession, with Rafat having begun to position himself to succeed the ailing Hafez, who in his turn sought to eliminate all potential competition for his designated successor, his son Bashar al-Assad. In France, Rafat who is still alive has loudly protested against the succession of Bashar to the post of president, claiming that he himself. Embodies the only constitutional legality as previous Vice president alleging his dismissal as unconstitutional. He has made threatening remarks about planning to return to Syria at a time of his choosing, to assume his responsibilities and fulfill the will of the people, and that while he will rule benevolently and democratically, he will do so with the power of the people and the army behind him anyway. The fats coup attempt to weaken the institutionalized power structure on which Hafez based his rule. Instead of changing his policy, Assad tried to protect his power by honing his governmental model. He then gave a larger role to Bassett, his oldest son, who was subsequently rumoured to be his father's planned successor at the time, and this Kindle jealousy within the government. At a 1994 military meeting, the chief of staff said that since Assad wanted to normalize relations with Israel, the Syrian military had to withdraw its troops from the Golan Heights. Ali Haddad replied angrily. We have become nonentities. They were not even consulted. When he heard about his outburst, Assad replaced him as Commander of Special forces with the Alawite Major General Ali Habib, hide that also reportedly opposed dynastic succession. Keeping his views secret until after Bassel's death in 94 and went, Assad chose Bashar al-Assad to succeed him. He then openly criticized Assad's succession plans. OK, before we go back to 1990, let's take a quick break. BRB, OK? So, back to 1990. The regime had done everything in preparation for bass sale to take power. However, on January 21st of 1994, while Bastille was driving his Mercedes at a high speed, an author Paul Theroux reports that Bassler was driving 150 mph. He was driving through dense fog to Damascus International Airport for a flight to Frankfurt, Germany. He was on his way to a ski vacation in the Alps in the early hours of the morning and. It was then that vessel collided with the barrier and, not wearing a seat belt, he died instantly. After his tragic death, the regime made sure to elevate the Assad name in the process. Shops, schools and public offices in Syria closed and the sale of alcohol was suspended. In respect. He was elevated by the state into the martyr of the country, the martyr of the nation and the symbol for its youth. A great number of squares and streets were named after him. The new international swimming complex, various hospitals, sporting clubs and a Military Academy. The International Airport in the Tucket was named after him, Bassel Assad International Airport. His statue was found in several Syrian cities, and even after his death, he's often pictured on billboards with his father and his brother. He also has an equestrian statue in Aleppo. Even in November of 2020, a museum dedicated to him was Nagy. Rated at the Latakia sports city. Vassals. Untimely death obviously had unforeseen consequences. It led to his lesser known brother Bashar to assume the mantle of president in waiting. At the time, he was content undertaking postgraduate training in ophthalmology in London. Bashad was seen as the shy, unassuming younger brother, and for his whole life up to this point, he was overshadowed by his father and his older brother, Bassett. But then suddenly, he was fast tracked on the path to succession. He was rushed to the military, and the constitution changed so that the minimum age required, or the president was not 40, but 34, exactly Bashar's age at the time. Bashar became president following the death of his father, who died on June 10th of 2000. Best sales posters and his name were also used to secure a smooth transition after Hoffa said introduced the slogan Bassin. The example Bashar the future. His quote UN quote election was a yes or no referendum, a popular vote on whether the Syrian people wanted him as their president. And so surprise, he won with at least 97% of the vote. O after the vote, Bashar is sworn in and he's presented to his people as the savior, as the one who's going to open up Syria and reform the system. Doctor Bashar, as some refer to him, was seen as the leader of the younger generation of Syria, the standard bearer of modernization. But the regime was and stayed very cynical and was not at all sincere about these reforms. However, Bashar performed his role and acted the part, cracking down on corruption and reaching out to all sectors of Syrian society. Back in 2000, some people were even calling this the Damascus Spring. And the Syrian people were seeing things change, unaware that, as Sam Dekker puts it, that Rashad is being mentored and tutored by people who have been empowered by his father to kill, torture and disappear people because they had dared to speak out against the regime. These hardliners were grooming him and telling him, yes, you can present yourself as a softer version of your father, but know that in order to hang on to power, you have to be as ruthless as your father, if not more. Western governments have the impression that Bashad was someone they can do business with. He presented a modern, open minded image and even hosted notable positions from around the world in Damascus, including Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. the US and Europe accepted this perception because they believed that it was in their best interest to do so. And to ensure that this image of Syrian leadership was being presented to the world. The regime was strategic, having bashad show that he was different from his father, even in the choice of who he married. In December of 2000, Assad married Asma Akhras, a British citizen of Syrian origin from Acton, London. She was much different than Syria's previous first lady. She wasn't from the religious sect that the Assads belonged to the Alawites, who are still a religious minority. She is actually of the Sunni majority. Rashad decided to marry someone who had lived all her life abroad as a British citizen who was modern and assertive and had a career in investment banking, and talked about going to Harvard. For Business School. She was even featured in Vogue. Come on, barf. In an interview in 2005, Asma said. Quote the issue here is not how Muslim women decide to dress. The issue is what Muslim women are doing in their society today. It doesn't matter how we dress or what we look like. So hearing this and other things, Western leaders are looking at this modern educated couple, believing they are different and more importantly, that they are more suitable to their interests. And the post 911 era, the United States was looking for allies in the so-called War on Terror. And Michael Assad, Assad dagger stated in an interview quote, shared intelligence with the Americans and even tortured people on behalf of the Americans. So the West had a vested interest to justify its engagement and cooperation with bashad by saying he is a reformer. Opening up serious economy was a big part of projecting an image of a reformed Syria before Bashar took power. Syria's economy was a centrally planned economy, also known as a command economy, which is an economic system where a government body. Makes economic decisions based on the production and distribution of goods. Serious economy was in the mold of the Soviet Union's economy, but when Bashar took over, the economy began to change drastically. In the early 2000s, ATM's were seen in Syria for the very first time and cell phone companies were established. And while the economy may have opened up, everything was still in control of their regime. I wanted to bring up something that my mom mentioned about the differences between Bashid and Hafiz and how they genuinely believed he was going to bring modern change. He he was doing it all right on paper. But when Hafez was in power in the early 80s, or my mom was talking about her experience in the late 80s, early 90s, apparently there were at least three Secret Service stations that monitored everyone in every neighborhood, three per neighborhood. And because my mom was going back and forth from America to Syria, my father as well. They would send for my mom, they would request that she go to the Secret Service, and she was asked there about the Syrians. We knew in the States what they were doing, what they did, who went to the mosque. She had to write everything she did in detail. She did this every time she visited Syria, and my father went through the same thing. At one instant she was saying that one time they left her alone in her room for three hours. Because they do this to purposely humiliate you. They make you anxious, they make you scared. And this was just something of normal procedure that a lot of Syrians experienced. Just. Constant. The terror. As I mentioned, it's a culture of fear, and this is one of the ways that they promoted that. But after Bashar took power, this changed. These places were taken down and it just genuinely looked like Bashar was an improvement. He studied in the West, he opened up the Internet because previously the Internet was only allowed for news, and it just seemed promising. And before we get into anything further, let's take another break, BRB. We're back in Sandaker's book Assad or reburn the country, he describes how tightly controlled this new Syrian economy is. He writes 10 families run Syria and control everything. He continues to describe how this early period in Bashar's rule also brought the rise of another figure, Rami Makhlouf, Bashar's cousin. He is related to the Assad family through his mother, who was the sister of Anisa Malouf, Hoffstadt wife. So she's Bashar's aunt. Running Yahoo's personal wealth, accumulated abroad, was estimated to be in the excess of 10 billion in 2020. His father, Mohammed Malouf, played the role of the regime's financier, basically offices money man as Bashar al-Assad became president. Mahlum's son, Rami, inherited this business empire and became this new tycoon in Syria. He was the person who made sure that any economic opening would benefit and enrich the Assad family before the Syrian. Civil War started in early 2011. He was considered one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in Syria and controlled nearly 60% of the economy, including industries have real estate and telecommunication, aviation, the dairy industry, tourism, electricity and oil trading. According to Syrian analysts, he is part of an asset's inner circle and no foreign company could do business in Syria at the time without his consent and partnership. The last French ambassador to Syria had lunch with Rami once and described him as acting as quote the King of Syria, puffing cigars and saying I'm in control and everything happens through me. Fast forward to our present day. The economy has completely collapsed ever since the uprising started in early 2011. It could be seen as an accumulation of the past decade. Serious sanction hit economy had always relied on Lebanon to sustain itself. But in the fall of 2019, Lebanon had its own crises, and it was an economic and political turmoil which forced banks to control access to cash and prevent transfers abroad, Dagger explains. Lebanon has always served as this economic pressure valve not only for the regime, but also for average Syrians. A lot of Syrians had their savings, their life savings and Lebanese banks. One analyst told me that Syrians. Had $1 billion in deposits in Syria itself versus $40 billion of Syrian deposits in Lebanon. And then what happens in Lebanon? The whole banking system crashes. There are protests in the streets of Lebanon. That outlet that Syrians had shuts down, and the situation becomes progressively worse in Syria. The value of the Syrian lira had also extremely diminished and continues to. Trying to recover from this plummet of the Syrian economy, Bashar turned to capitalists that he had empowered 20 years prior, including his cousin's rally, Mclouth, Bashad, asked Rami for $230 million. Specifically in back taxes. It was described, essentially, as being a shakedown. The world saw this as a huge falling out between Syria's richest man and its president, a dictator Bashar al-Assad. Other prominent businessmen, not just Rami, were also targeted, and they all quietly agreed to pay whatever the regime was asking for. The economy was an entire state, and the regime urgently needed cash. So the government asked for money from the businessmen it had empowered in the 1st place, and most of them comply, but not running Makhlouf. In June 2011, Makhlouf stated that he would, quote, quit the Syrian business scene. On May 1st, 2020, Malouf made an unprecedented public appeal to his cousin. He made this appeal on Facebook, saying that officials were seeking to seize his assets as he was pressured to hand over an excess of 130 billion. I think that's what all those zeros mean, an excess of 130 billion liras due to tax evasion. Makhlouf, who was a part of Bashar al Assad's inner circle, said he would pay the president himself, but not the state. Two days later, he posted another video on Facebook where he mentioned that Syrian security forces arrested some of his employees. He said how could they do this when I was their biggest supporter and their biggest servant during the war? However, speculations indicate that the Syrian First Lady, Asma Assad had been responsible for this whole plot. The reason being that quote many businessmen. Oil to asthma compared with LAHLOU for control of diminishing resources after collapse of the Syrian pound, along with sanctions, made the space in which they compete and narrow and difficult. This is according to Doctor Mohammed Alhaj Ali, a researcher at the Carnegie Middle East Center. In addition, the Syrian authorities might have targeted malouf in order to find resources prior to the implementation of U.S. sanctions related to the Caesar Act. On May 17th, 2020, Malouf posted another video on Facebook where he mentioned rising pressure on him to hand over profits or he might be arrested. On May 19th of 2020, the Syrian government seized all assets belonging to Makhlouf. On the 21st, a Syrian court placed a temporary travel ban in Makhlouf on June 25th, 2020, the Syrian government. Terminated duty free contracts and all ports and border crossings with companies affiliated with Manhoef. This drama between Bashad and Romney resulted in talks of a rift in the regimes inner circle, and people were concerned that this would expose a rift in the Alawite community itself, which had supplied the bulk of the fighting forces for the regime. Because in these Facebook videos Romney wasn't only appealing to his cousin, his patron, with whom he built a 20 year symbiotic relationship with, he was also appealing to the average. Members of their religious sect, the Alawites most of whom are nowhere near the wealth of the Assad families inner circle. He was telling the Alawites that we had sacrificed everything for the regime and our sons were killed in order for the regime to remain in power and instead of being rewarded for the fruits of this. The regime is going after an important figure who has been instrumental in supporting people through his business. AKA ramming himself and it wasn't necessarily untrue. But he wasn't helping people for free obviously. And Rami had expected people to remain loyal to him despite all of this. Basically, the Assad family had finished devouring the Syrian state and its resources, and it had now started to devour each other. As of 2020, 80% of Syrians live in poverty and 40% are unemployed. There is unrelenting inflation, and basic goods have doubled or tripled in price. Rice, flour, sugar, coffee, everything has become obscenely expensive. There's hardly any meat. And gas is priced in American dollars, which you could only imagine how high that goes. When my family and I talks to our family members that are still in Syria, we hear about the electricity being out for days and weeks and then the water being out for the same amount of time, and the people are essentially being suffocated by their own government. People are questioned and tortured and kept in prisons for absolutely no reason. And the only way they can get out is by bribing the prisons thousands of dollars for no reason. It's just about greed. It's about power. It's about. Terrible people, these monsters, just destroying this beautiful place. Syria is so beautiful and I just my heart breaks for the land and for the people. So although the Assad regime continues to present itself as the ultimate and only power in Syria, Bashar has actually been at his weakest point in the last two years. He is only still in his position because the Russians and Iranians want him to be there, and he's only able to maintain his role by playing off his two patrons against each other, Iran and Russia. This is a regime that always derived its power from the army and from the security forces. But the army largely does not exist anymore. Yes, there are divisions that are trained by the Russians in an attempt to put this army back together, but even the loyalists who support Bashar al-Assad don't want to join the army anymore. They would rather leave the country. So the regime's only option left is to continue to rule by fear. This has had mixed results, especially when you look at the uprisings that have continued since 2011, however much they have dissipated. People put themselves on the streets, not hiding their identities, vocally and loudly opposing their regime, and demanding for the removal of Bashar al-Assad. This behavior, as we've seen, is unacceptable by the regime, and it's led to the regime all but destroying its own country. Estimates of the total number of deaths in the Syrian civil war by opposition activist groups vary between. 500,000 people and 600,000 people as of March of 2022. And I think it's really notable that Syrians are vocally expressing their outrage. And there's just a history there of so much trauma. In 2005, for example, my mother was telling me that a list of demands. So, like, what's math? Six years after the first uprisings occurred in 2011, in 2005, a list of demands or corrections. Were written down the things that people wanted to fix of the government, Free Press, free expression. They wanted to make the government a democracy and Bashar allowed them to list their demands and what they wanted to fix and hand it over to him to look at essentially an Arabic which is called ilande Musk. And it seemed like maybe an open conversation could happen, but then everyone who signed this petition was looked up, hunted down, sent to jail. Some for decades and some people that are still there and others fled the country after they started collecting people. This E learned the mosque was the beginning of the end. It was the end of the few liberties that people thought would come when Bashar Assad took power. He named everyone who signed, everyone who supported the news people of the press as terrorists. And I think in spite of that, six years later there was still an uprising. It was an accumulated need to fight back. And so going back to that saying that Assad loyalists spray paint on the cities that Assad has demolished. Assad or we burn the country? It seems like both choices have come true. But shadowed Assad has stayed in power, and he's also burned the country to the ground. And the more he stays in power, the worse life gets for Syrians. The country is destroyed, families are shattered, and many, many people have died. The cost is insurmountable, but a lot of Syrians don't see this fight as over they're injustices and grievances remain the same even after experiencing indescribable horrors over the past 12 years. Syrian people, like all people. They want dignity, they want justice, and they can no longer accept living in this inhumane system or your most basic rights as a human being depend on your proximity to power. Anyway, this is Shereen. Thank you for listening. I sincerely appreciate your time and I'll see you. Football is back, and bet MGM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. 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Sisters of the Underground is a new scripted series about fearless women exploring the life and legacy of the Mirabal sisters, Dominican women who were brave enough to challenge decades of oppression. Together, they led their country toward a revolution against Rafael Trujillo, the brutal dictator who ruled the Dominican Republic for 30 years. Please, please help us has blood on his hands. From executive producers Dania Ramirez and Eva Longoria. That's me comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of Michael Tura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on Tiktok. You maybe even heard the rumors from your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade we here at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions. Sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know. Now it's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. Welcome to it could happen here, the podcast about the world falling apart and how we can put it back together again. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, now. Three months ago we covered Greg Abbott's attempt to shut down the border and how he was forced basically to back down by a Mexican trucker strike. And in that episode, we mentioned that Abbott's newest stunt was deporting people from Texas to Washington DC to make Biden look bad by, you know, moving the problem to him. And as a political stunt, this has largely failed as a humanitarian disaster inflicting untold human misery on completely innocent people. It is still continuing to unfold. And here today to talk about this with us is Amy Fisher with Sanctuary DMV in the migrant solidarity and Mutual aid network. Amy, thank you for joining us and welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me so excited to be here. Yeah, I'm somewhat less excited that this is happening, because dear God. Yeah, so I guess to start off, do you want to tell us a bit about what's been, I guess how this started and what the sort of initial reaction and non reaction of the DC government has been? So in April, Governor Abbott started bussing people from the border to DC. We knew from the get go that this was a racist publicity stunt, particularly because the first few buses were dropped off right in front of the Fox News building and we all initially thought it was going to be a few weeks of bussing people and here we are. In the middle of July and the buses have kept coming, and buses arrive to DC basically every single day of the week except for Monday evenings and Tuesday mornings. And there have been probably around 3500 people bused from Texas to DC, and not too long after, Governor Ducey. Of Arizona started doing the same thing and busing people from the Arizona border to DC and the DC government has basically been unwilling to grapple with the reality of what's happening. You know, people are arriving to DC with very, very little resources, typically like the clothes on their back. Sometimes they don't even have shoes on their feet when they get off the buses, and it's been. Umm, kind of amazing to see the way that the DC community has responded. It's been like the type of response that makes me remarkably proud of being a DC resident and being from the area. And also it's something that the DC government is turning in a blind eye to and pretending like, Umm. The the reality that we are seeing when we are talking to people that are getting off the buses day in and day out is just it's like entirely different from what you know the DC mayor is saying about the situation. Yeah. And I guess well, OK. So before we talk I guess fully about the DC government, just. I catastrophic. I don't even want to know if I want to say it. Incompetence so much. It's just like, yeah, we'll just let these people suffer. Can we talk a bit about what what what the Community responses look like and what you all have been doing? So maybe to back up a little bit to, to tell you about sort of like what the experience is of the people that are getting off the buses. These are people that are typically coming to the United States to seek asylum. They're being processed at the border. For a few days and I think what like have been commonly started to be referred to as like the Pereiras and Galeras at the border. So like the dog kennels, the ice boxes and the at the border and that are being paroled into the country and so the Customs and Border protection. CBP is releasing these folks to like respite centers type of places at the border. In Texas, most of the folks are coming from Del Rio and Eagle Pass. Umm. And then they're being told that there's these free buses to DC and it's it's a little bit mind boggling because we know that Governor Abbott is doing these bus this busing purely out of the most, like, racist, xenophobic intentions. And also for many of the folks, it's a free bus to to get to where they're trying to go. And so people are riding on the buses arriving in DC. And then, you know, many of them are trying to get to other places along the East Coast and many are planning on staying in DC. And So what has happened is we've developed a massive mutual aid response, which has been super cool. So, you know, we have a crew of volunteers that meet the buses when they arrive at Union Station. And if you're not familiar with DC, Union Station is sort of the big transit center and in the middle of DC, actually relatively close to where the capital is. It's sort of like the DC equivalent of like Penn Station in New York or something like that. And so they're dropped off in front of Union Station. We have folks that will welcome them and typically we bring to folks to different churches around the area that have opened up their spaces as respite Centers for us. And we, you know, sit down with folks, we offer them some food and really try and talk through what their needs are. And help them as best as we can. Meet those needs, whether it is, you know, folks may have. Medical or like trauma that they need to work through, maybe they're trying to get to New York. And so we'll help them, you know, communicate with family members or help them find their way to New York. We, you know, for the folks that are staying in DC, we've done our best to help them, you know, find a way to kind of get settled and put down roots in their new community, getting them connected to community members that help them. You know navigate DC teach them how to use them. Metro help them get to their you know check in appointments as they're you know having to jump through all of the hoops of ice and being surveilled by the state and and helping them you know have access to lawyers to explain their legal process and really just kind of like I don't know I took a dude to to target to be to like help him get go shopping and. You know, took folks to get. Just like the random stuff that people need when they arrive in a new place. In the same way that like, I don't know, if I had a friend moving to DC I would be like, hey, what do you need? Like how can I help you get to know this place? Like this is how our bike share program works. Like just the most basic. Welcome. Get settled. Can we talk a little bit more about what the sort of legal process looks like here and what like? For example, like, explain what check-ins are and. Yeah, so. The folks that are arriving are being paroled in and so basically what it means is that they are then under surveillance from the federal government from ICE, which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement. And what that looks like is a little bit of a crapshoot. So many, many of the folks are at the border given cell phones that have tracking. On them. And so with that cell phone, they're being tracked by the government. They basically have to take like selfies every so often to check in. And then they're basically being enrolled in this program called ISAP, which is the. I can't remember the acronym. It's it's a supervision program and so they have to go to an ice office. Once they arrive in whatever city that they're arriving to, oftentimes they're being asked to turn in the the the ice cell phones and having to download an app on their cell phones. If they don't have a cell phone, they might be given an ankle monitor or what many of the Spanish speakers called like a grillette, basically like an ankle shackle. For electronic monitoring, they'll have officers, you know, show up at their house. So sometimes they have to, you know, be at home from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM so that, you know, immigration come, come by and make sure that they're, like, still there. And basically that part of the program is entirely so the government can keep a track of where these folks are. It has nothing to do with, like, the actual legal process that they are trying to go through. To to be able to stay here permanently, so separate and apart from that, the vast majority of these folks are asylum seekers. And So what that means is that, you know, once they're here, they have a year to apply for asylum and then they're thrust into the like totally broken asylum system that has. You know, years long backlogs and things like that and so then they'll be basically trying to find a way to. Get an asylum grant to be able to stay here permanently while also navigating the the surveillance that's happening on the eye side of things. Are so I know something that happens with. Like, I guess regular prison a lot are people being forced to pay for the ankle bracelets? No, thank God. OK, which is which is something at least minimum, but yeah, still cheesus it's yeah. I mean I will say that we've one of the issues that we have started sort of trying to figure out how to navigate is that. What we're seeing is people, you know, they get that ice cell phones at the border and then at their check-in they're supposed to turn in the ice cell phones and then download this at this surveillance app on their phone. Many folks don't have a cell phone or the app only works if you have I think a 5G phone. So you basically have to have like the fanciest of the phones which. If you if you're an asylum seeker and you just risked it all to come here to seek safety and you don't really have a support in the US, and now you're being told that you have to have this super fancy phone or you get an ankle shackle, it's it's just kind of a ridiculous thing knowing that it's OK. Maybe you're privileged enough to be able to be surveilled on your own personal cell phone, or you just have to have it equal shackle at all times. So much. This process, just like it, really feels just like it's it's just, it's surveillance, just sort of for the purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the purpose of humiliation. It's surveillance for the sake of some. And this idea that we've been dealing with in the US since September 11th, that immigration is a national security concern, that, you know, if if immigrants aren't being surveilled 24 hours a day, then like Lord knows what they could do. When the reality is, is these are folks that are just like. Normal people trying to live their best lives, and I also think how I think it's really important to say how much of this is also entirely based on. Government funding and the and availability that. So oftentimes the decision as to what kind of surveillance you're under is based upon what is available based on contracts with you know. Private surveillance companies and private prison companies that have a surveillance arm and things like that. It's it's entirely profit driven. Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's again, I keep thinking about prisons and it's just like, yeah, I mean literally, literally the same companies doing this kind of stuff and how, yeah, and like, I think. I don't know. There's there's there's this kind of like. I mean, I guess people, it's just a person industrial complex. But yeah, there's this whole, this is sort of like state private sector. Complex that both feed on each other. Where you have these companies taking federal money to do stuff, you have these companies who are like have figured out ways to extract like money from the people they're surveilling. And I guess. OK, keep keep keeping on the thread of the state, making people's lives miserable. Yeah, so Muriel Bowser not doing anything. Yeah, we thought that a bit. So Mario Bowser's messaging that we have received has evolved a little bit here and there. So sometimes she says that the majority of people that are getting off the bus have everything they need and have family supporting them, and so they're actually is no reason for the government to step forward because. These people already have all of their needs met which? I would say maybe one person or one family of every few days has someone that's, you know, ready to meet them when they step off the bus. But the vast majority of people don't. And and I would say that we're seeing an ever increasing amount of people that don't have anybody in the United States and so they really are in need of a lot of supports to help them. Really figure out their way here because they don't have cousins or family, friends or extended family, whatever it may be, to help them. You know, put down roots in the in their new communities. And in recent weeks, her messaging has shifted a little bit because there is actually a Spain based organization that got a grant from FEMA to support on the buses. And so now bowsers response is this organization, SAMU has it, it's covered. There's there's no like refuse 1 refusing to even acknowledge the fact that the mutual aid network has been and continues to do. The vast majority of the welcoming of the folks that are arriving and. Two once again. Refusing to acknowledge that there is any role that. DC could be or should be playing here. Yeah, and it it it it seems like. I don't know. I mean it's it's a kind of classic like state two step, which like yeah, on the one hand it's like, OK, there's no problem. The second thing is we found an NGO we can sort of like pretend is doing the actual work. And. I guess one of your things that that I saw from y'all recently was a bunch of people got exposed to COVID while doing this and there was like basically you guys did basically a work stoppage. So. Last week. We. Basically hit a wall. Many of our core organizers had been exposed to COVID. We were running out of funds because this work is expensive, yeah. And. We had been doing this as volunteers. Around the clock, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week for months and. Last week we kind of hit a wall and. Umm. Told this NGO that is receiving FEMA funding that we needed to take a beat and take two days where you know, folks could get COVID tested and make sure they were in the clear to come back to work and rest and. Also, spend time like we, you know, call it a work stoppage, but we're all still working. We were all, you know, having conversations as to how we make this work more sustainable, how we find, you know, systems of support to to make this, this welcome last and unfortunately that resulted in people basically getting stranded at Union Station. And when our folks were able to return to welcoming buses on. You know, later in the week they ended up with, like, I don't know, 30 additional people that had basically been sleeping at Union Station because this other NGO that, you know is receiving federal funding to do the work that the mayor is saying has it and therefore she doesn't have to do anything. Didn't show up and and there were a handful of good Samaritans that like, you know, would be at Union Station and see a bunch of folks and they, you know, spoke different languages and would be able to support them kind of here and there. But it really showed how. I think it really proved that the the the work that the mutual aid network had been holding and that, you know, if we tried to take a step back things, things fall. And really showed how much we need. Others to step in because the work that we've been holding has is. Has been, you know, wearing us down. And. Hiding the situation a little bit, right, that people don't, people, you know, when we're able to really show up and and provide the folks that are arriving with the support that they need, what it means is that the government isn't paying attention because it's it's not their problem in that moment. It means that DC residents don't have to walk by asylum seekers when they're trying to get to the metro after work. It means that. Umm. You know, the people are cared for and and that's great. And it's work that we're proud of and it's work that we're doing well, but it's also work that we need support doing. Because it's it's a lot and the numbers have increased. You know. And and we want to be able to provide. Welcome. We want to be able to give the folks what they need. But. As long as we're sort of living in this world where bus tickets are massively expensive and food is expensive and you know, we got it, we got to help close people and. And help people meet their needs, then then we have to have support and that's just, that's just the reality. Yeah. Some of the things I think is really frustrating about this too is it's like it's not like the resources that you just don't exist. Like it's not it's not even like the state hasn't like attempted to put resources out, but it just got fed into this NGO complex people who are just doing nothing and. I don't know like the the. The the the way you get to see sort of both arms of what the state does or it's like, OK, on the one hand you have the part of the state that just hitting people with clubs that's just doing this stuff. And you get the sort of political arm of the state who just like again are just literally shuffling people's lives around as as, you know as political theater. And the political political theory doesn't matter because these people's lives don't matter to the state or to anyone who has even a tiny bit of power unless you know they're it's visible enough that people are like the people have to see it and that. People, you know, get annoyed because, oh hey, look at this thing happening. That's like, interfering with my life now. And, you know, and then it's like, oh, they're supposed to be part of the state that, like, takes care of people. It just isn't. And that's. Just incredibly frustrating. I don't know, it's. I think of. A few things. So when we first started seeing buses coming to DC. You know, the people are dropped off in front of Union Station. And at the time, there was an encampment of Unhoused people that, you know, had their tents and stuff in front of Union Station. And so folks would get off the bus and say, you know, what are the temps like, who are these people living in tents? And so be like, welcome, welcome to the nation's capital of this place that you just came to seek opportunity to seek safety and you're immediately showing. Getting showed in in the most you know, visible terms possible of the way that the state is failing its own people. Because people in DC don't have housing, and housing gear is immensely expensive. And then. I say in the early days because in I think it was in May. That encampment was cleared and and so those people lost their homes. UM and? Now. It it continues to be a struggle that, you know, if we are unable to provide housing for the people that get off the bus, they are going into the DC shelter system that is already overrun because there is a high housing crisis in DC and a looming eviction crisis. And even for the folks that are arriving here on the buses if they don't have supports. They're they're thrust into this situation in which. The state is preventing them from working. They don't have a way to work. Legally. For at least a few months. Presumably until you know they can apply for a work permit, presumably after they file for asylum. But these are folks that don't have a way to work legally that are have that have 0 support from the state. So how? Like tell me how somebody is supposed to. Live in the United States. Feed themselves, feed them, feed their feed their families. And have a roof over their head. Survive. Have a cell phone for your surveillance app. Have the means to travel an hour, you know? Once every few weeks to check in with ICE. If they're legally prevented from working. It's just, it's a total abandonment of. People who? Need and wholeheartedly deserve. Support. Yeah. And I think, like, it's it's honestly like, I honestly think it's worse than abandonment, right. Like, if if they just, like, if these people were allowed to come into the US and the state did literally nothing at all, it would be better in the situation that exists now. Like, it's not even just that they're being abandoned. It's that they're actively being prevented from, like, doing the things they need to live. And it's, I don't know, I think this is something you see on a sort of broader level, right, where there's a lot of, I don't know. But back when I was in sort of social theory land, there was a lot of talk about like, necropolitics and the state letting people die. And it's like. Yeah, but like, they're also actively helping to kill them too. Like that. That's like it's it's not just that the state abandons people, it's that the state abandons people, and then it takes the resources and prevents anyone else from using them. And then you know and when it when it does sort of, yeah I mean going back to sort of this NGO that's not doing anything, it's like yeah when it when it does sort of send these resources out, it's sending them into these in like in in into its own sort of Paris state complex with the sort of NGO sector that's just not doing anything and it's just. I don't know, like. It's it's this bind, right? Because it's like, yeah, like on one hand, like communities have to be able to support each other, but it's like. We don't have the resources for it and that has to come from somewhere. Right, yeah, it's impossible. And it's it's heartbreaking to see when DC is barely doing anything for the people that have been living here for generations. And then when we have new folks arrive, they're thrust into this. Impossible situation. And. No one's really willing to engage with that problem. And there are resources, it's just a matter of whether you want to to use them for these purposes. And this is a problem that we're seeing intimately here in DC but it's a problem that's existing everywhere around the country. And DC is supposed to be a sanctuary city like this isn't. This isn't DC with a mayor that's, you know, politically aligned with Governor Abbott. This isn't a DC with a mayor who. Is attempting to be vehemently anti immigrant. It's a mayor who is claiming to to represent a sanctuary city, a city that is supposed to welcome. Immigrants and yet? Saying welcome doesn't actually mean welcome. Yeah, I remember in like I'm in Chicago and you know Chicago is also sanctuary City and I, I, you know, we had to physically stop deportation flights with our bodies like, but the have this like haunting memory always remember is like the first big like anti ice, like anti kids in cages protests that we had one of the groups that showed up to this thing like it's called Heartland Alliance and they, you know, they describe myself as like this human rights and anti poverty organization and they were literally running five child detention centers in Chicago. And it was like, I don't know the the there's me that that was like just the sort of like. The IT is, it's it's it's the rubber hitting the road of saying you're a sanctuary city. And what does it look like it's like? Well, it means that your bike or justice organizations like run child prisons for immigrants. It's a refusal to engage with reality a little bit. And, you know, the NGO SAMU that is receiving FEMA funding to presumably abandoned people at Union Station is. Also you know. If things go their way, trying to open up a facility in DC to. You know detain unaccompanied children and that's welcome to I think there city it's probably worth mentioning. It's like. You know, Spain, another country that has just like people getting like people. So Spain like has a parts of North Africa they control and, you know, like people like people get shot at the border by soldiers trying to like, trying to climb fences, getting in and, you know, it's, it's, it's this fun thing where we're seeing like, I mean this is been happening for the last. I mean really like forever, like last 500 years has been this, but this, this sort of this, this incredible racist. Border system is not just an American thing. It's in Europe. It's in it's it's been exported like into Mexico itself. It's been, I don't know it's it's, it's it's it's it's a politics that's just sort of everywhere. And like Frontex and the EU does this stuff like it's it's all just, I don't know it it's borders are racist and they kill people and they kill people and it feels, I I don't actually think we have to go to like. It's. I think it's helpful to make those analogies of how this is replicated across the world, but I also think that. You know. Just a few weeks ago, there were over 50. Migrants that were found dead in the back of a tractor trailer in San Antonio, including, you know, young indigenous folks. And we know that there have been thousands of thousands of Haitians removed under Title 42 and Haitians that are drowning in the water, trying to find a way to come to the United States. To seek safety, people are literally dying and trying to get here and. What? The folks that are coming to DC, in a way. Are the lucky ones because they're from countries like Venezuela. They're from countries like Cuba, where US foreign policy finds it beneficial to allow them to enter to. Publicly say you know these are the quote UN quote right asylum seekers. And they're able to be paroled into the country. And still have to deal with all of this crap that they're dealing with. But there's. Countless other black, brown indigenous folks that are arriving at the border and literally risking their lives and many losing their lives. Trying to get here because of these like racialized border systems that we have and that we're exporting all throughout the Americas. Like go South to Mexico to Tapachula and you basically have an open air prison of black asylum seekers. Yeah, I mean, there's something that like. Like, my, my, the reason my family is here is because we were able to, like, my grandpa got drafted into the Taiwanese army and he was like, no. And because we were Taiwanese, we were able to get to the US but it's like, you know, lots and lots of people like, you know, if you were from South Vietnam, sometimes to let you in, if they, if you were from Taiwan, they will let you in. But like, God help you if you're from like, Indonesia or just like from, I mean sometimes you get people from China, but it's like. Yeah, the the. I don't know the the the way that just. All of these people's lives are being used as geopolitical tools. They're being used. And then, you know, once they get here, they're being used as just sort of internal American political tools. And yeah, it's just as much people getting killed with the borders. And until we ******* make borders go away, like, the stuff is just going to keep happening and. People are getting boarded onto buses and sent to DC because Governor Abbott thinks this is the way that he can run for president. Yeah, by being the most racist, xenophobic guy in town, maybe. And and these folks are just political tools and. It's it's devastating. And and. It's. It's really also kind of. Amazing to be able to then also just like. Hang out with them and break bread with them and and realize that we're all sort of fighting this, this mess together. Yeah, and I think. I don't know. Like, I we, we, we we do a lot of episodes here that are incredibly depressing. But yeah, like, I think, I guess, yeah, it isn't, I guess important as as a thing to sort of end on, is it like, yeah, I know, like, we like, we can take care of these people. Like we can if if if we actually fight this together, we can beat these guys. Like we. I don't know. Like it, it, it it, it is actually possible. Like these these all of the things that we're talking about, like this stuff didn't used to exist. It's not, it's not something that inherently has to exist and we can make it not exist again. I think the the response that we've had in DC has been. Are really like, I can't say it enough, how beautiful it is that we have. A group of like over 200 volunteers that have stepped up and we've been able to raise a remarkable amount of money and we've had like you know little kids sell cookies to support our efforts and. Umm, it's it's really heartwarming. And people using their neighborhood listserves to, you know, get donations of car seats to be able to, you know, make sure that when we're, you know, helping families, we can make sure that, like, the little kiddos are able to, like, travel in car seats safely and all of that. And we've been able to, and we're doing more of this of, like, building relationships with folks around the country that are doing similar work or, you know. If someone is taking a bus to New York and it, you know, breaks down in Philly, we're able to mobilize other volunteers in Philly to just, like, make sure that folks are like, fine and OK and like, get on their next bus. And that is amazing and beautiful. And to me, I think the thing that makes me optimistic and like mad at the same time is that. There are both at the federal level and local levels, just billions and billions and billions of dollars that are being invested into. Instead into solutions that are based on. Like detention, surveillance, border militarization. When God like if instead we just devoted those billions and billions and billions of dollars into making sure that, like, when folks arrive here, they can have. Like a comfy bed to let to to like, lay in at night and have food and be able to like support their families. I mean it. It kind of sounds revolutionary, but it but it's just like it's so simple and there is such a concerted effort to do the opposite of the most basic. Hey, welcome to my town. How can I welcome you there is if I remembering my like. Immigration history right there. They used they they had this program in in the UK where for a while where they would bring OK, you, you'd have a family. They're coming to the US and they get paired with a British family and the British family would like show them the ropes. And it worked really well. Everyone loved it and they stopped doing it because they once they brought people in like that, they couldn't deport them because the entire community would show up and just be like, no. And so they stopped doing it. And it's like, that's a problem. Like, that's the problem that, like, people are then welcomed and loved by their communities. Yeah. Like, that shouldn't be a problem that we have to solve. That should be like, oh, this is a resounding success. Yeah. And instead, it's like, it's like actually living in a better world, actually having a community where people care for each other, where people take care of each other and where people love each other or people will fight for each other. Like that is something that the state sees as a threat. And. I don't know. I I guess it's it's it's it's this. It's this weird thing where it's like. You know, we like. The better world we could be living in like it is, is literally being built, right? Like, you know, you could, you could you, you can walk down the street and you can see people taking care of each other and then it's like. Here is the state who's the only thing that they want to do is just make everyone's lives increasingly miserable. And it's like, is it? Is it that hard? To just say, hey, like folks wanna be able to just, like, live. That's it. That's all they want to be able to do is just like live. They want to be able to work, they want to be able to support their family, they want to be able to be safe. They want to be able to like, eat good food and have fun and. The state is doing everything but. Allowing that to be. And are like mutual aid work. Is is is helping folks navigate and do as much of that as possible. Yeah, I think, I think that's a good note to end on. Unless you have anything else, I don't think so. Cool. OK, so where, where, where can people go to find and support this work and where can they go to like? Give money if they want to or actually help volunteer too if you're in the area, yeah. So we have a link tree that has all of the links to support us and all the ways. So if you're here in DC and you want to be able to support or if you want to donate, we have really cool T-shirts that we sell that say melt ice that are designed by one of our volunteers. And so it's the the link tree is like the link tree. Slash DCTX solidarity 22 and if you follow that link, you will be able to. See all about our work and, you know, get the demands that we have for Mayor Bowser, support us in person, financially, whatever it is. All of that lives there. And yeah, we will, we will put the link in the description. So cool. That'd be great. And I'll make sure you have it. Yeah. Thank you. And, yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and this has been it could happen here. Go help your neighbors and go make the state not be able to prevent you from doing that. Football is back, and better GM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. You'll also have instant access to a variety of parlay selection features, player props, and boosted odd specials. Just download the bet MGM app today or go to bed. Mgm.com and enter a bonus code champion and place your first wager risk free up to $1000. The bet MGM app is the perfect way to experience the excitement of wagering on live sports now in more markets than ever. Visitbetmgm.com for terms and conditions must be 21 years of age or older to wager Virginia only new customer offer. All promotions are subject to qualification and eligibility requirements. Rewards issued as non withdrawable free bets or site credit free bets expire 7 days from issuance. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem call 1888. 532-3500. Your miraval mate courage already runs in your blood. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. Sisters of the Underground is a new scripted series about fearless women exploring the life and legacy of the Mirabal sisters, Dominican women who were brave enough to challenge decades of oppression. Together, they led their country toward a revolution against Rafael Trujillo, the brutal dictator who ruled the Dominican Republic for 30 years. Please, please help us has blood on his hands from executive producers Dania Ramirez and Eva Longoria. That's me comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of Michael Toura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on Tik T.O.K. You maybe even heard the rumors, your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade, we here at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions. Sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know. Now it's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. Ah, welcome to it could happen on the Internet. The only podcast. I'm Robert Evans. And today we've got Saint Andrew back in the studio. We don't actually have a studio. That was a lie. That was a lie that I told you think I was cooler? Saint Andrew, how are you doing today? I am good. I'm good. Andrew dropped. Saint oh, ****. I'm sorry. You're right. You're right. You're right. We should probably. I'm sorry. That's good, because I'm no longer see. You got beef tainted. So OK, if I understand Catholicism right, that means you undid someone else's 3 miracles? I know nothing about Catholicism. Ohh OK well there you go. Pretty sure you have. This is a Protestant, Protestant background here. My knowledge of Catholicism is that to be a St you have to do a couple of miracles. But the last one is always something to do with being dead. Like they just decide that whatever you do when you're a corpse is like, oh, it's a miracle. Oh, Catholicism, Andrew. What are we talking about today? Today we're going to be talking about something that I received more traditional Catholics may have some disagreements with, Christians we have some disagreements with, and that is, that is our entire audience is that this, this podcast is completely listened to by the Pope's Swiss Guards, 100% Vatican City. Yeah, we we have deep penetration in the Vatican. That's an interesting choice of words considering the end of Pride Month, but you know. Alright, so yeah, what are we talking about? We'll be talking about human evolution and particularly my favorite kind of proteins to human cooperation. OK? The origins of human cooperation. OK, I love this ****. I think that, you know, people tend to emphasize human competition a lot because capitalism wants us to believe that we have these competitive, you know, doggy dog. I don't know where that term came from, by the way. I've always been curious about that. As far as I know, dogs don't eat each other. But it's an interesting phrase, and I think it's kind of optia. This this idea that that that we just. Competing all the time that we were fighting is it's a survival of the fittest and only the strong survive. You know, people talk, you know casually about prehistoric times. It's this very. It represents the stories that we've been told about it. And as a result, it tends to be very, you know, competitive, highly patriarchal, highly violent, just constant interpersonal violence. I mean, that was a justification used to, you know, reinforce the state, right, is like or the state of nature. It's everybody against themselves. And so as a result, you know, a state had to be introduced. We treated some of our freedoms for the safety that the status of was to provide. But as far backas, prudon and really even further, because, yeah, let's be real. It's a very European concept, not something that can be projected towards all human societies and all human philosophies. But Prudon was one of the first white guys, I guess, in his time period and in his field, to really challenge that notion with, you know, mutual aid, facts of evolution, of course, the studies and stuff that he would have done, the knowledge he would have shared. And, you know, known and studied by people before him, but he was one of the first to really bring all that knowledge together into one place. Years later. Anthropologist and Primatologist was born. I mean she wasn't born that, but she became that late in life in 1946. That would be Sarah Blaffer Hardy. And so she made many major contributions to evolutionary psychology and sociology, biology especially pioneering our modern understanding of the evolutionary basis of feel female behavior in both non human and human primates. In 2002, she was recognized as one of the 50 most important women in science, and in 2014, mothers and others, together with her earlier work and currently the National Academies Award for scientific reviewing, in honor of her insightful and visionary synthesis of a broad range of data and concepts from across the social and Biological Sciences to illuminate the importance of biosocial processes among mothers, infants, and other social factors informing the evolutionary. People of human societies, in a sense, she got an award because she recognized the fact that the relationship between mother and child and you know how humans raise their children. As. Vital in our evolution and in in our becoming human. Yeah, I mean, that's. Yeah, it's fascinating. I didn't know any of that. Yeah, I mean, humans, they. We we do recognize. Now we're starting to recognize more and more primitive primatologists, at least that humans. I'll let other great apes rather they do care. They they share and they empathize a lot more than we may have originally thought. But humans still win at you know, the caring competition I think we because of even something like official anatomy on how we structure our society use is probably one of the more pro social of you know if you have the great apes. Yeah it's interesting whenever I because obviously I've read stuff about. Like empathy and apes, but it's always in the context of the ones that we taught sign language to. The one I'm remembering particularly is and I I'm I'm spacing on the name that the scientists gave her, but one of the yeah, Coco when her reaction to like 911. Because it was apparently like on the TV or some **** when it happened, but like, I I never hear emphasized the same degree. Or, you know, maybe I just have not sought it out, but it's certainly kind of less. Less discussed is like evidence of empathy within within, like the societies that they built. I guess like would be the term for them, the little their communities, I don't know, whatever you want to call them. Yeah, yeah. I was interesting as well. I mean Cuckoo was a gorilla and regarding her sign language is actually interesting video essay talking about how you just would sign language then we assume. But Coco was a gorilla and humans are more closely related to two groups. It was being bonobos and chimpanzees. And we tend to look at chimpanzees which tend to be more, you know, violent and you people use them as an example for this. And naturally are despite the fact that, you know, we have millions of years of evolution diverging from chimpanzees, you know, our last common ancestor was like 6 to 7,000,000 years ago. Yeah, that that's a bit distant. Like, yeah, like I got family member I talked to five or six years and I consider us pretty like pretty far apart. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and then on top of that, like, there was enough time for some serious divergences to start happening, you know, like. The fact that. Humans you know walk upright and and chimpanzee is they still have you know that that 4 legged gait it's actually something that. I learned recently evolved on two separate occasions, that being that particular kind of knuckle walk. Yeah, I just want to kind of fast states in its kind of besides the point. But yeah, I mean, we we we tend to look at chimpanzees, our closest example, but for nobles, which are a lot more social, I would say a lot more cooperative and less violent than chimpanzees. Actually share a lot of, you know, similarities in terms of, you know, behavior. And they're also one of the few animal species that have been, you know, recognized as having sex for pleasure and not just procreation. So good for them. When we talk about evolution, a lot of it has been shaped by Darwin, even though science is not about figures and big figures and their big ideas, it's about the ideas themselves. But still, seeing as Darwin was the one who really introduced, you know, the idea of of of competition, the idea of of all that in evolution, those sorts of notions which came really out of his time in industrializing. Competitive world. It really overstates the rule of competition as a driving force in evolution. When in reality cooperation was, you know, far more potent force. When it comes to like, pro social, human tendencies, you know, doing things to benefit others, that's what pro social is. Doctor Hurdy really comes down on the cooperation side of things in her book mothers and others especially, brings together all this evidence that we are basically descendants of a place to see in species of cooperative breeders. Cooperative breeding is a practice among some animal species. Other mammals do it, but I think we are one of the few. Where you were the only great apes to do it and there are other primates to do it, other monkeys to do it, but none closely related to us. Cooperative breeding is basically the practice or the reproductive strategy where. All the parental care is provided to the offspring of. You know the children of sudden parents from the group. Alpental Kia is basically the practice of it's basically non. Direct spirants. Care. Care provided by individuals other than the parents and so. By having that network in place, by having the. Process of altering, please. It's how we were able to be so successful as a species and our distribution, you know. You know, establishing ourselves in all these different environments because humans spread. Fairly rapidly around the globe and we used to be established ourselves and created cultures and all sorts of unique environments and. Honestly, we are the most successful out of the primates not regard, so kudos to us and that is because of cooperative breeding. Did you just woo Robert? Yeah, of course. God yes, like. We had to react to ratio, the rest of the fragments, you know, very, very based of us. We literally reassured them. Literally. Showing everything on this *** **** planet except for chickens and no except for chickens and corn. Corn is definitely ratio of us. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Cows too, man. Oh yeah, that's true. That's true. Cows. Chickens. As there's one other. I know for sure, for sure we have a lot of them. Different species of goats. And there's only one species of humans, and they're also magical. Yeah. You know, I mean, what's the population of dogs? Oh, it's actually it's every time I look. It's less than you'd expect. Obviously. What's 900 million? That's ridiculous. Less than I'd have expected. I want more. Give me more dogs. Hundred 900 millionaires like rookie numbers like I was gonna expect. Like at least a couple of billion, just based on. But no, just 9. Yeah, every time I look it up, I I recall being like, oh, there's not as many dogs as I thought there were. I guess they weren't cooperative, Freitas. You sure are not. And only 400 million cats. Those are rookie numbers. Cats. Come on cats on cats. It's actually probably, I mean the party for the best. They do a lot of damage. My dad always says, my dad always says that, uh, we need more dogs in the world to fix the ****** ** humans. Yeah. I mean, I feel a lot of pressure to put on docks. That's completely fair. Yeah. I feel like that's really our job to fix ****** ** humans. Like, yeah. No, no, no. Well, I mean dogs for that. I mean, cats and dogs are pulling a lot of weight as it is, you know? Yeah, they are. What are ferrets doing? Yeah, yeah. What a fish doing. What are ferrets? Great question, Andrew. Ferrets. ******* ferrets, yeah. And, like, ******* goldfish, right? What are you guys? What do you what do goldfish? What have they been doing lately? *************. Like, get off your ***** and stop us from killing people. Goldfish, stop the war in Ukraine. Goldfish, come on. I mean, it's a cut. Cool. If there's some slack, they're busy dying because people don't want to take care of them. Yeah, yeah. They're like all of the people treat them like house plants. I didn't think we would have Andrew being a goldfish apologist on this podcast, but here we are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll fish, have them committed any like war crimes or anything, not that I like. I'm within my rights to defend them. They haven't stopped any war crimes either. So, I mean, this is my place, no guilt talking. And I've, I've, you know, I've, I've neglected my fair share of. Yeah, you know, Speaking of cross species cooperation, when I was younger and living in Texas, there was this one day where like we're out on the in our like ******* backyard area and we see walking through the alley behind our houses, this massive turtle. Probably three, £400 like like easily like 3 or 4 feet in in circumference on his shelf. Just like an enormous animal, just like strolling around the neighborhood. Not a species that you that you see in Texas wild. So we like kind of try to corral him. We can't lift him. He's massive. But we like corral him into the into our yard area and give him some cucumbers and eventually his person comes around and the guy explains that. Like, yeah, when Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles came out, a lot of people bought a bunch of different kinds of turtles thinking they were good. That's but they didn't realize that there's a lot of the turtles that get sold, like never stop growing. Like if you keep them alive, they just keep getting bigger. And so I he like and they smelled bad. Only if there's time. He had adopted this turtle and it lived in his yard. And he said, like, yeah, he's really strong. Like, I have a good fence, but every two or three years he'll just walk through it. Like, most of the time he chooses to stay in the yard. But every couple of years I'm just going to go on a walk and it. And he's like, yeah, he just, like, breaks through the fence. It takes him about a second. Like, if he wants to do it, that's like, I don't know if you've seen Baki. Have you seen Baki? It's just, it's just adding me. And no, this is not my, my weed coming out story. I have not read all of you would much in that regard. But I started back here recently and in the first episode they established that all these people are coming to Tokyo right for like some kind of fighting competition. And the way that they establish those people is a dangerous is that these are all like criminals on like death row and so like they're in the process of being put to death like one person is you know, being. Injectors on they want pricing electricity from prison home and they all managed to break free after they die. And, like, break out of prison easily. This one guy, he was imprisoned underwater. He breaks out of the underwater prison and swims several miles to up to the surface and then swims all the way to Tokyo and. It's like. For some reason not to until breaking out of his, you know, influence whenever he chooses just reminded me of. Like the China establishes power levels, you know, no, he's he's too powerful to be contained and he's probably still alive because they live forever. Which is, again, why they're bad pets. Yeah, because what did you do about slavery? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, that what? He may not been around for slavery, but what do you do? What are you going to do the next time there's slavery, turtle, you know, are you going to stop it? I don't think so. You're a turtle. Maybe next time. Is this something you should be telling me, Robert? We've all been paying attention to the Supreme Court. It's not going to go well in the future. Robert what? Leave the turtles out of this? Well, if they stop the Supreme Court, I will stop ******** on the turtles. You're just doing that meme from 2020 where people were like, I gave up my plastic straws for the turtles. Where are they now? That was the thing. Yeah. It was bad. I don't remember that. That's like, come on. Well. I will see that, I mean. At least we're cooperative breeders and I think our our tendency of cooperative breeding tendency probably has something to do with. The fact that we adopt other species as pets and as members of our family. Because you don't really see other animals doing that. No. You know, I think there was there's some kind of like fish or crustacean or something that that keeps another species like as. Livestock, yeah, that there's a couple of species that do versions of that for sure, right? But I mean, we love our dogs and our cats, our ferrets and our sneaks and our tarantulas and our ferrets? Foods. You know, people are trying to like, domesticate foxes. We could love them too, you know, it's the people. There are people who who who keep big cats, the people who keep like key runs, the people who keep all kinds. We just, you know, it's like we got to catch them all, you know, like we just want to take all these creatures and we want to to love them. I don't know that says about us, other than the fact that. Our cooperative nature extends beyond the boundaries of you know. Us as a species. We narrated very high levels of of mutual tolerance, of perspective taken, and other pro social impulses from ancestors who use our parental care and provisioning of the young to. Survive. I mean we didn't invent complex cooperation, our pre human ancestors did, but we elaborated upon it. Yeah, it's it's always interesting to me to think about that. I think back up to when I the first time I ever went to a war zone was Ukraine. And it was this, we were in this little town called Diva that was getting shelled by the Russians. And there was this big. The way they do the heating over there, they have these vents going underneath or these tubes going underneath all the houses to supply them with like gas and stuff. And there's this this big was this big central, like kind of box thing in one and there's a few of them in the town and stuff that like is the, I don't know, I guess it's like the. Uh, uh. Like Nexus of a bunch of different, like houses, whatever, heating system. So it's warm. And the people there, like when the war started, a bunch of people fled and they left pets behind. You know, sometimes they didn't really have a choice because it's war. So there were all these cats and dogs and soon all these breeding cats and dogs, all these kittens and puppies and people who lived there had, like, turned that little junction box for the heating system into this, like, massive kind of open air cat and dog sanctuary. So, like, there were all of these. Like dozens and dozens of puppies and kittens. Just like living together in this big heating box in the middle of this. Like being taken care of by all these local ladies who would scrounge up food every morning and make sure that they were all taken care of. And it was interesting because you could see all these like cats and dogs living together and all of these people coming together to take care of animals they didn't know. At the same time, like all of the people were doing their level best to murder the folks like a mile and 1/2 away and vice versa. So we we contain multitudes. Human beings, definitely. I mean, that's possible too, right? Like the fact that we are so? Eager to like, share in others emotional states. You know, to empathize and the way that we assume eager to. Involve ourselves and and give and share with those who are unrelated to us. I mean, there are a lot of species that. Do not raise the young at all. And those that do and try to kill other people's young and they're the ones that do and just take care of their own young. But, you know, we. Even in this like super individualistic capitalist world, we still find ways to, like, look out for each other. And. I think that's beautiful. Yeah, of course. You know, cooperative reading doesn't mean that there's like, constant, like Barney the dinosaur, like cooperation. And yeah, all the time. They still can't be competition. Different things, yeah. But. Behaviorally, anatomically and emotionally modern humans are cooperative breeders, and the crazy part is those you know 3 traits you know behavior and not to be in an emotion. Those lustration not evolved simultaneously. So for example, our physical feature like our eyes and the fact that our eyes are. Are able to, you know, we we can see the whites and our eyes, and that way we can. Put ourselves into people's perspectives and that kind of thing. We could see the emotions more clearly, you know, the fact that we are we referring to sharing our smiles and the fact that. You know, our vocal cords have such range to be able to communicate to many different things. While these are hallmarks of. The fact that you know. Even before our. Super Big Brains developed. We were already getting these treats that would have helped us in cooperation. What I wanted a lot of the time, though, because, you know, a lot of these were developed before language. It's like, what was the first word of humanity, you know, what was the first sentence? What was the first thing like we said? And how did other people react when the person said it? I could imagine that, you know, like agriculture, something that's developed independently on multiple different occasions and different places. But I still wonder, like, what those first conversations might have been about. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of them probably would have been arguments with other people who didn't want us to do words. Who will ultimately write you know, if if only. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's interesting. Like, I I think it probably like we, we just did a couple episodes about the history of of of gynecology. And one of the things that we talked about at the start was like the prehistory of medicine, which, which likely began in an organized way by like, likely the first people practicing medicine in any way, where where pregnant women and women who had been pregnant trying to help each other survive pregnancy. Right? And I wouldn't be surprised if that I mean. Food gathering is obviously the other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if, like language started as a way to try and like communicate and better survive making babies because it's it's like super dangerous and also entirely necessary. And and something that kind of particularly benefits from communication. So I, I don't know, I wouldn't be shocked if that was like the first thing we talked about, so to speak. Hmm, that makes sense. Yeah, but I'm also thinking as well, and it just occurred to me. It is pretty possible that like that the first language was not spoken language. I feel like it may have been like a form of sign language. You know, because, you know, we have these hands and people tend to talk with their hands. So yeah, ohh yes, I think my hypothesis is that, you know, we used our hands to communicate things before we started speaking. I mean, the fact that we were able to teach apes, you know, other apes, to use sign language, I think that's a good sign that. We can learn to communicate with that face. Yeah. I mean, it's also, you know, probably how our communication with dogs started because that's one of the things that makes them special is they're pretty much alone in animals and that they like and kind of instinctively grow up understanding that when we gesture at them, it mean stuff like, if you point dogs will look where you're pointing a lot of the time rather than at you, which is like a rare trait in animal. So I yeah, I think you're probably right on the money there. Huh. I didn't even think about that. That's true. That's true. And of course that makes it fun, because you could always fake them out and, like, throw something. Yeah, yeah, stupid. Get a bucking dude. Yeah. Yeah. Anderson doesn't fall for that **** so I love ******* with him. She does not fall for that. I can't fake her. I can't fake her out. She's that's probably why she's the woman of the house. I'm pretending to throw stuff at a dog, and then it it it goes running, and then it realizes that you faked it, like, that's the best. I can't relate, because if I try to do that, she looks at me like good try. Uh-huh. Oh, OK. Sophie, where you need to go is Corgi Con in San Francisco. For these years. Well, they let Anderson, and even though she's only she does, she's only part quirky. She's there's nothing. There's nothing but acceptance at Corgi Con, acceptance, and hundreds of corgis frolicking in the surf. In rules, she'll try to herd them all. They are all trying to hurt all of them. I'm into it. They are all very excited and don't know what to do with each other. It moves. So as the book progresses, hottie spend some time talking about how we are similar to and different from other great apes. So we learn about how. We use eye contact and smiles to bond, even from a young age, you know. We we pretend to hear about it, but the fact that babies cries are so attuned toward attention and capturing the attention of people. Umm. Yeah, these are all like ********. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was. I was a screamer, apparently. You know, I used to rattle Red Bull. All and ball and ball, in fact. One story I was told was that the neighbor called and was like something happening to Andrew and my parents were like, Nah, he's just crying. There's like 3:00 o'clock in the morning. But, I mean, look at me now. Now I'm boiling for justice, yeah? One interesting treat that you know humans have is our willingness to like, share our babies with others, other great apes. You know, those mothers, they tend to have like constant contact and care of their children. You know, like they don't let others touch their Children Act tall probably because like. Other mothers tend to want to kill their kids or cause harm to their kids. Yeah. So they tend to be very protective of them. Whereas, you know, as all peerens we are, you know, full-fledged cooperative readers, you know, we. Have not only shared our young with others, but. Allow parents have also been, you know, been recorded breastfeeding the young of others you know and and masticating and passing like hard to digest foods to infants. I'm mixing up my tombs a bit in terms of, you know what? What is a primate and what isn't deep versus what is, you know, just whatever. But Mama sets and tamarins, which are colored trike kids or color dresses, color trick kids. They are also cooperative breeders and they're very fast breeders as well, rapid, rapid breeders. So, you know, good for them. It's also typical of all species. We tend to be very fast breeders, and that's why we reassured all the other great apes. What I find interesting as well is that people be able to breed so rapidly, despite the fact that our. Do you remember the word for like carrying a child? No, it I'm just blanking, right? No. No, no, no. I think you're thinking of the incubation period. Is that what you're trying to think of? Yeah, but that's such a. That that feels like a very dehumanizing way of putting it. Yeah, I'll just say that. Carrying a baby, you know? And the costs includes on, you know, woman's body, on human's body. It's like a whole thing. It's a whole thing. Yeah. And if we keep full of having so many in one lifetime, despite the cost necessary to raise each, I mean, other animals, they have like meats and seasons and, you know, they have set amounts of children they could have in their lifetime, but no. Hmm. You know, we could just. I mean, their their stories of of women who have had like dozens of kids. Which is, you know, unfortunate circumstances because, you know, in those cases it tends to be. Not necessarily willing, but the fact that we all keep capable of having many kids is. Lends toward the importance of having support systems in place because. Of animals don't tend to have more children they can care for. If that is, you know, they care for children. A lot of them just eat their kids. If they can't care for them exactly, do that once it's it's, you know, makes sense. Yeah. Whereas we had revolved to have support systems in place. Speaking of eating babies, kind of. Absolutely. There kind of is a dark side to that because even though. We tend to have, you know, these children and stuff. And we tend to, we're supposed to have these support networks to care for them. The practice of infanticide is actually something that has a long, long history. And in human practice, where? If a mother determines that they're not able to raise their child, they don't have the support systems in place to care for that child. Different practices would typically be used to. You know. Deal with that child. And that's of course what makes. The anti abortion stance is so inhumane, you know, because absolutely, yeah. The whole reason we that abortion is so important is because it protects the you know, the autonomy and the agency of you know, people who can carry children and. Yes, in this wool it continues to atomize us and individualize us and separate us. You know, shipping some people of their support network so we can in our support networks. Is still expected to. I'm punished heavily if you do not just. Pump out as many children as you can and it's it's sick. It's really sick. Yeah, that's not great. When it comes to those support networks most people are familiar with. You know, extended family, like for example, grandparents. And in fact, an infant survival is significantly affected by our grandmother's presence, which is why. Humans tend to live long past their. Reproductively viable. You know, human females live after menopause for a pretty long time in comparison to. Other species. And of course, their grandmothers and their of course, fathers. They are sisters and godparents and really a lot of other. Cultural. Systems in place, even polyandrous meeting. Umm. I think I mentioned that in a previous in a previous episode. They're also forms of of like biological, flexible residence patterns where you know you always have kin around to take care of your infants. And. I would see that it's, it's it's kind of tough because a lot of people these days. You know, I struggled with their extended families. It's very much a. Cool. I love you, but I'm glad we lived in separate kind of situation, you know, like extended families definitely have a lot of pros and cons, which is why we actually find, I think, interestingly a lot of examples of chosen families throughout. Different societies, and also even there's some evidence that that might have been the case in the past as well. We are unrelated. People would form groups together. As one example. I remember reading about. And of course this can't necessarily be extended to prehistoric times, but I've seen it in in multiple different hunter gatherer situations. But. Where you have this this clan system in place. And you can matter how far you travel. You can expect to receive care for members of your clan. In North America, I think it was like the Bear clan and the Elk Plan and all these different clans. In. Aboriginal Australia, they will side different groups as well and so people were able to interact with each other across huge distances and settle in different places and connect with others to find kin. Couldn't code kin really necessarily directly related. Yeah, there's a couple. I mean, there's, there's a book called Sex at dawn that my read many, many years ago that's about kind of like the evolution of human sexuality and how some of it's been like how different cultures have looked at things like, like what makes someone apparent? And there's all these different attitudes. Like before we had kind of the scientific understanding of like where, you know, how how babies are conceived that we have now. There were all these different attitudes like this idea. And I I forget the name of the. The people who but they they they still exist with somewhere in Latin America and they're, they're their belief was essentially that when you got someone pregnant that was the start of the process. And then after like conception, the person with the baby would go around and pick, right. Yes. Yes, yes. I remember that you wanted for the baby and the idea was that like, well yeah. When they ****** that person's like essence gets added to this forming child and one of the things that that does socially is it means that it means that for that. Community children weren't seen as having one father. They're seen as having a bunch of fathers, all of whom were like responsible for teaching the kid and raising it. Which is like, oh, that's a very sensible way to to organize your little society is to have is to is to ensure that, like the kids coming up have as many adults who are like responsible for them as possible. Which is broadly speaking, the best thing you can do for kids is to have a bunch of adults be interested in their, their, their success. Exactly. Because I mean like if you have like one of the best hunters in the village trees and your child and you have the best Craftsman in the village, reason your child and you have the best fish heads, village raising child, that child is going to have a very well-rounded education. You know? It's going to be able to learn a lot of different skills that they're going to need. I mean, that's just one of the many positive effects of having multiple caregivers on the development of a child's world view and sense of self, their concept of self and others, their concept of empathy, the concept of independence. How the how they view the world as either dangerous or insecure or giving and welcoming. And so, I mean, we are so used to this nuclear family world view which these, these independents. Whole Foods that we don't consider the fact that having. A broad range of people. Raising them is actually crucial to their personal development as children. To the human development, really having all of those different perspectives and stuff in place. I mean, that's part of of what pretty talks about, especially in her final chapter, that being how in modern times. The. The communication of property. Emergence of patriarchy? Even the stuff in the post industrial era are all these would prompt a shift from cooperative breeding, from cooperation between groups to war between groups, especially with property, because when you have property you have a need to hold on to that property, and the whole idea of property is. You and yours, the exclusion of all others, right? You know. And so at the end of her book, she also speculates we might be losing our art of nature. Because we are continually evolving. But she wonders, what might the potential evolutionary effects be? Feel rearing children who are not living in Internet contact with a variety of caregivers because especially within those first two years of life. Infants raid and responsible caretaking relationships develop in need potentials for empathy, mind reading, and cooperation and collaboration. I mean, these behaviors are the outcome of complex interactions between both genes and nurture. So the question is, how can these inhabitants trials? Remain. More than potentials, you know. I mean, because the development of them is is far from guaranteed. A lot of children these days have raised without extensive social contact. I mean even the year of COVID where a lot of children were isolated at home, actually the height of the pandemic. I really wonder. If we will see like a month. Looks like distinct generation of like within a range of two years. Of children who just. Aren't as socialized. Because for that to those first three years of their life, they were kind of isolated or those first few years, their life, they're kind of isolated because. There's this. Lack of empathy, lack of cooperative skills and. Lack of attachment that. May cause us to miss the mark. It's it's really trauma. But trolling doesn't necessarily stop people from continuing that trauma, from reproducing and carrying that on. And so I really, I'm really curious as to see what the effects that might be. And also what we can do to try to? Couple that negative impact. Last question she asks is really? Will humans in the future still be empathetic and curious and or the emotions of others because of our ancient heritage? Aquino care? I'm paraphrasing here or we'll these systems that we have in place. Evolve us in. More Machiavellian direction. Well, I guess that's the mystery that we're all going to get to watch unfold in pieces, at least over the course of, you know, the rest of our lives and everyone else's lives. It is. I don't know, I I think. The overall arc of it speaks more to the things that about us that are good and to increasing cooperation, because that is like the story. Of the last couple 100,000 years of human evolution, although at the same time. Some of that, a lot of that cooperation has gone towards ****** ** ends as well. Like, I mean, all of the good and the bad things happening right now are, are one way or the other examples of cooperation, right? Like it's, it's. Uh. Yeah. I don't know. Let's hope things get better. I hope so too, and I think we could do more than hope. I think we can act. Yeah, we're going to have. I mean, like, that's the thing, right? Like part of how specifically in the United States, I mean, but internationally, too, the right has gotten so much over the last really five or six years in particular, is cooperation across borders and across, like ideological differences. Like there's there has been like tremendous sustained cooperation that has allowed them to amass power, the power that they're currently exercising. And the only thing that's going to actually counter that is the cooperation. An organization of a much larger amount of people, like there's not that many of those folks. That's why they've had to be so organized. There's a lot more of us, but. We also can't stop fighting about ****. So it is it is like we are going to have to evolve in real time to cooperate better with one another and more effectively in order to in order to. Wrench the wheel back. That's true. Anyway, let's not lose hope. And let's not lose your plegables, Andrew. Yeah, yes, you can follow me on Twitter at under score saying true and find me on YouTube at Andreza. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Well, folks, that's going to be all for us here today. And it could happen here. Until next time. Go happen somewhere else. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen here as a production of cool zone media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources for. It could happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com/sources. Thanks for listening, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up. Against the brutal dictator Kapal Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and I said Dominicana myself. 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