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It's autumn time to get cozy and nothing is cozier than one of Casper's award-winning mattresses. Of course, they've got their most popular mattress. The original hybrid, it's engineered for cool, comfortable sleep. You can get a more restful and more soothing night sleep if it's a little warm in your August with the wave hybrid mattress, which provides more support than foam alone. Or upgrade to the wave hybrid snow mattress with snow technology to give you a full night of cooler sleep if you need to try it to believe it, Casper offers free contactless delivery and a risk. Free Hundred night trial. Discover the Casper difference today at casper.com and use code here 100 for $100 off select mattresses that's code HERE 100. Thatcasper.com for $100 off. Hey there. I'm Scott rank, host of the podcast history unplugged. Now, it really is a dream come true to get paid to talk about history without all the stress while still being able to make a living. And I did it with Spreaker from iheart. Not only did they make it super easy to monetize my podcast, but ad revenue is 3 to four times higher with spreaker than with any other host I've worked with. So if you want to turn your passion into a podcast and give this a try, visitspreaker.com, that's SPREAKER. Dot com get paid to talk about the things you love. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode, so every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen here, the podcast where we spend all of our time talking about skin Care now, personally, and a lot of people say this is a bad idea. I enjoy using concentrated chlorine with a little bit of ammonia. It just cleans the pores. It cleans the grout. It it it gets all of that pesky code out of your lungs. You know, an entire generation of British and German. The French boys all agree chlorine gas does the trick. How are we doing? What? What's this episode about? Hi, welcome. Welcome to it could happen here podcast about things falling apart and how we can maybe put them back together. I'm Garrison. I'll be, I'll be leading, leading. This sode with me is, as is Chris and this, this random person that we brought on from the street named Robert. And we'll be talking about some things that are not great and kind of current problems. So I I spent, I spent a lot of my formative youth lurking, studying and kind of documenting some of the some of some of the bad places on the Internet. You know, Nazi chat rooms, Chan sites, hate Facebook, hate group, you know, whatever the all all of all the things. And you know growing up in Portland OR in like the 2018 this was this was something that felt kind of foisted upon me as as a kid discovering my own queerness and coming out of an extremely homophobic like insular. Christian community, meanwhile in Portland having, you know, self-described fascist March alongside gay hating Christians on my city streets, Nazis murdering people on our public transit, you know, that, that, that, that. That put a lot of fellow fellow scrawny gay kids to put on black black hoodies, symbolic lavas to Mason fight far right. Extremists there were like two to three times their size. But the problem is, of course, what £100 depressed teens aren't necessarily the best brawlers under under some circumstances, although they can handle a a fire extinguisher filled with paint pretty well. That's true. But a lot of us also started doing like online research and stuff to find like the names and addresses of like fascists and members of hate groups and all that kind of all that kind of stuff. I I still remember the kind of the, the, the thrill and the buzz of my first like big find as as a as a baby online lurker. It was, I think it was, it was the leader of the hell shaking St Preachers who was living in Tillamook OR at the time, ******* prick that that was. That was. The first guy did and I remember being very excited being because yeah he was he was a massive ******* of so yeah he's like a you know very, extremely homophobic quote UN quote St Preacher. Just a big old showed yeah but a lot of like this like online research work wasn't wasn't just cross referencing social media posts with the White Pages property records and voter registrations to send nice postcards to hate group members. Time was often spent tracking the use of like memes and cataloguing. And sharing a fascist plans for projects and events keeping keeping tabs on like their current propaganda trends that online white supremacists were. We're trying to we're trying to push. And one of one of the things that I I came across about about two years ago was called Operation Pride Fall. This was this is one of the one of the one of these like. It was an organized campaign ran by people on 4 Chan Discord and Telegram. Like I came across it as a few a few days after the the plans were published online. And if you already know what Operation Pride fall is or or heard that term before and if you're you know like me and we're on similar online spaces you've you've probably found the past few months of anti queer propaganda, the massive increase in the gay and trans people are groomer **** and the shutters kinker pride discourse. To be all very, very predictable, as strangely familiar, like the worst case of deja vu and in large part of the result of years of work behind the scenes by social engineering online, bigoted trolls and self-described fascists. So we're going to, we're going to talk today about kind of the overlap between this, this thing called Operation Pride fall, the groomer discourse, and how that kind of feeds into king kit pride discourse. So three things that are not great. That don't go great, that actually do kind of go great together, yeah, I mean, unfortunately, yes. So a first. First of all, a little a little background on the whole recent groomer thing, because we haven't actually discussed the groomer stuff in depth on the pod yet. Sure haven't. You know why we haven't. That's hate. It sucks. I'd be like whenever, like horrible things happen in the news, I try to push back on just releasing an episode immediately covering it in case we have something like actually good to say. So we've kind of waited to talk about the grammar discourse stuff for a long time, and I think now is is totally, is totally fine to do so because we've had, we've had months to let it, to let it simmer, look at like the types of things they're encouraging, look at all of like the physical action they're trying to do. And with Pride Month approaching, we're going to see a resurgence of it in the next few weeks here. So, as mentioned in our in in our week long war on Trans People episodes, which was released like right before the new wave of the groomer, **** accelerated. But in those episodes we talked about the long history of conservatives and evangelical organizations promoting the false narrative that targeted at parents and like concerned citizens, that gay people, especially gay men, are more likely to be child predators than their heterosexual counterparts, along with the idea that queer. People are out to quote groom, you're definitely 100% straight child into being gay, right? So in insinuating that they think that they can then like have sex with them or something, it's. But yeah, they're trying to scare parents to be like gay people are out to get your kids. So it's the, the, the, the actual, like idea of what being a groomer means changes based on who you're talking to. In Part 2, I'm going to quote a Conservative writer who like admits this as as such, but still. Defends the use of the term because at the very least, if they they use grooming within the context of turning your again, absolutely, completely heterosexual child into a gay person. Thus they would, you know, begin to hate you and resent you as a parent for your godly Christian values. They also consider that grooming. It's not. It's not. It's not. Actually, just as a general rule, the attitude is if they do not turn out to be the exact kind of weirdo Christian as their parents, they were groomed by somebody and it's merely a matter of picking the topic, the person to blame. Yeah. And all of that sort of rhetoric was extremely popular through like the 80s, the 90s and the early 2000s. But then came the knots in the 20 eighteens and this, this, this kind of had an attitude shift, and some of that started to go away. We got we got queer eye, we got Ellen. The rate of conversion therapy started to decline. It was getting banned in more states. There was more queer acceptance in certain in certain sects of the church. Even. Of course, the gay marriage went national in 2015 and eventually being like aggressively homophobic became like, not a good look. It did. It was not. You were not able to do that anymore and still be able to have and and and and do it as like. Nonchalantly as you were, as you used to be able to, whether that's in your, like TV show or whether that's you as a corporation or you know, some random other sectors of public life. But then of course, Trump got elected 2016, a year after gay marriage went national. And then there's this resurgence in far right extremism, and the more kind of commonly accepted kind of nonchalant gay bashing of old gets passed down to the next freak down the line, which is trans people. So with that, the the adage of like the disgusting. Rumour freaks are going to turn your kids gay turns into the gender ideology. Freaks are going to turn your kids trans. It's all the same stuff just passed on to the next to the next thing. And so we have that like anti trans and therefore anti queer hate festering for a few years. And this inevitably opens up the door to just a revival of classic homophobia. Even even liberals like friend of the pod JK Rowling and lots of the original turfs got to apply the same homophobic. Generic to trans people and gender non conforming folks, which then obviously results in that propaganda and rhetoric being used to attack LGBTQ people on a whole once again. So it it's it's resurrecting these old homophobic tropes and supplying it to a new generation of queer people. And so for this next part, we're gonna talk about libs of Tik T.O.K because they they they did play a big a big part in. With what? Some current discourses today and I promise we'll get to Operation Pride fall here shortly. Just just hang in there with me. But before we talk about again, other friend of the pod lips of Tik T.O.K. Do you know what else it wants to turn your kids gay? Oh, are you talking about the Washington State Highway Patrol? Because yes, they absolutely do. Garrison. That's the one guarantee the Washington State Highway Patrol makes. They'll make your kids gay. OK? Libs of Tik T.O.K joins the fight today. I just take a moment to acknowledge how ******* frustrating it is that we have to discuss seriously. I know like the worst. It's terrible. It's terrible. People always criticize the show for being like, why do they talk about all these dumb social media things? So like, yes, I know that they're stupid, but the the bad part is that they actually matter. Yeah, I mean maybe, yeah, we talk about them because of the 17 year old trans girl in Texas who just got assaulted by like 5 dudes. Because she was blamed on the shooting. And she was blamed for the shooting because in part of a lot of **** that lives of tick Tock helped to stir stir up because they proved there was a market. For that, if you're like a right wing **** grifter, attacking trans people is a great way to get engagement anyway. Sorry, Garrison. Yeah, so. Lips, of Tik T.O.K is a social media account turned social media campaign started in April of 2021 by a Brooklyn area real estate agent named Chaya Reichek, who by the way attended the January 6th attempted fascist insurrection. When when when violence broke out that day at the Capitol. She actually tweeted a play by play on a previous Twitter account of hers, posting videos from the crowd and talking about tear gas and rubber bullets being like shot right next to her and then after she left. Riot she she tweeted on Twitter that that the the event was peaceful compared to a BLM protest. So. That's yes. Anyway, 5-5 people died. We've we've we've now reached the part of it. We're we're we're we're now in tragedy of as farce of the thing that happens in every single state that goes fascist where all the fascist try to do a coup and it fails and then nothing happens and then they take over the state like years later except our version of that instead of like I don't know weird fascist yakuza guys. It's the libs of Tik T.O.K. It is the limbs of Tik T.O.K. So the lips of Tik T.O.K was around like the third attempt by Reichek to start a viral social media account, you know? Saying third times the charm, but in this case it actually was. So the accounts gimmick is reposting and often grossly misrepresenting select clips from quote UN quote libs on Tik T.O.K. You know, big big shocker, big big big surprise. But more often than not, that really just means posting videos of queer kids and trans people. Captioning it with something reactionary and then leading a targeted harassment campaign against those individuals on on May 31st, 2021. So just about a year ago she made her first grooming related post just tweeting stop grooming kids in all caps. This is the first time she tweeted anything related to grooming. The day before that she tweeted a video of a trans person alongside the vomit emoji and a caption that just says men should not wear dresses. You can't change my mind. Her first super viral video related to LGBTQ people was later in June next month during Pride by posting a tick tock of a kid explaining the concept of gender fluidity. A pretty, pretty basic concept, but she lives lives at Tick, Tock commented. This is so messed up in so many ways. Her her post racked up half a million views and indicated to her that the way to grow her little social media project into a right wing. Viral sensation was going to be with homophobia and transphobia. This this is how she decided to continue her online career essentially. She called the prominent LGBTQ youth suicide prevention group The Trevor Project, a grooming organization. And towards the end of 2021 and into 2022, she kept using that term grooming groomer at an ever increasing rate. Right it's it starts starts in like may and June of 2021, continues throughout the summer and fall, and then in the fall and winter, she starts really kicking up all of the stuff around around grooming and queer people. I mean, all of her posts are already mostly about. Trans people and like trans people at schools, obviously she was a big part of like the the whole school board thing from last year, so. But towards the end of 2021 though, is when the the groomer thing started becoming more of a recurring trend. Quoting quoting slate toward the end of 2021 and into the New Year, right check found her rhythm with memes and videos calling LGBTQ people and those who supported LGBTQ youth quote UN quote groomers. She has even attempted to smear one of the most prominent gay men in the country as a groomer in a deleted tweet write checks account accused Transportation Secretary Secretary Pete Buttigieg's husband. Haston of grooming kids for his work at at supporting LGBTQ youth locations. This isn't fair, but I hate that his name is Chastain. I know I don't like. I don't like that name. I don't like that name. I'm not a big I'm has nothing to do with anything. I'm not a chest and Stan either. But yeah, so shocking. But yeah, it's like finding the most prominent Libby gay men and being like, hey, these people probably groom kids and you know that that obviously riles up their base. Yes. She's she's called for any teacher who comes out as gay to their students to be quote, fired on the spot, which actually has happened since then. She has. This has happened multiple times since since since this account has been has been launched. The account's popularity grew alongside last year's racist, homophobic and transphobic attacks on school boards across the country. She would often posting videos of queer teachers and lying about them, grooming kids into being gay or whatever. That she was promoting organized harassment campaigns against those teachers, interspersed with tweets and screenshots of news articles about teachers who sexually assaulted students. Importantly, not posting the article. But just like a screenshot of the headline, along with comments like funny how this keeps happening, which is like neglects to mention that, like all these incidents are from heterosexual teachers. Or like that one story from last year of a cop and his wife who was a teacher working together to sexually abuse. Children, like none of them are actually about gay people. It's all. I mean, I'm not certain if a school resource officer has ever stopped a mass shooting, but I know that something like 50 of them have been fired from molesting kids. Yeah. So it's it's it's it's really, it's really insidious because she's, she's posting all this stuff to vote, you know, teachers grooming kids, you know, and into being like queer teachers grooming kids like alongside headlines of teachers actually like sexually sexually assaulting kids. But those headlines are all stories about heterosexual teachers, like, but you know, so she posts both of those things. So it's like to like to have this correlation for her audience. Despite them not actually being related because yeah, lips have tick tock sure ain't posting about how cops should be kept away from kids for the safety of the children. And they're never going to post about how many people who do the grooming stuff have been arrested because, like, several of the organizers of of of this whole like. Gay people are like grouping kids. Thing like have been arrested for child abuse since this started. Which, yeah, sure. No, it's not. It's never it's never going to matter. But, you know, posting and lying about queer teachers grooming children next to headlines about teachers sexually abusing kids to manufacture this correlation, which is of course false, but it's still highly effective. Now, believe me, I would love to not talk about Twitter nonsense, but unfortunately Twitter accounts like clips of Tik T.O.K actually do play a massive role in shaping offline conservative politics. Lips of Tik T.O.K was very soon being interviewed by New York Post being boosted by Joe Rogan. Going on, Tucker Carlson and other Fox News hosts like Jesse Watters began featuring content straight from the lips of Tik T.O.K Twitter feed, and Tucker encouraged his viewers to follow the account before it's banned. If you want to know, quote what may be happening in your child's school. Less March, when Lisa Tik T.O.K posted a video of a woman teaching sex Ed to kids in Kentucky like, you know, preteens or whatever, she called the woman a predator. In the next evening, the same clip was featured on Laura Ingram's Fox News program, with the host saying, when did our school, any of any schools, become essentially become what are essentially grooming Centers for agender identity radicals? So yeah, this is just content straight from the tick tock being put onto the most watched news programs in the world. And as we'll see, also being taken in by some of the most powerful conservative politicians. Mainstream conservative politicians quickly joined in in the Tooting of the limbs of Tik T.O.K grooming horn. Obviously Rhonda Santos is a big, big part of this of one of Florida Governor Ron de Santis's top aides and press secretary is a huge fan of Lipstick T.O.K. And is in frequent communication with them. Quoting the Washington Post quote by March 2022 Libs have Tik T.O.K was directly impacting legislation. Ron De Santis's press secretary Christina Pushaw credited the account with quote opening her eyes and informing her views on the state's restrictive legislation that bans discussion of sexuality or gender identity in kindergarten through third grade. Referred to critics as they don't say gay bill, the bill has been UN quote. So this bill has already been used to get. Middle school teachers fired for for for saying that they are not straight. And you'll notice that middle school is not in kindergarten through third grade. So remember when we were all saying, hey, the actual it actually doesn't matter that the bill says it's only up for kindergarten through third grade. It's just going to be applied for anyone. Yeah, it turns out we were right. So it's this. The bills already been specifically cited in the firing of multiple teachers from Florida for for. Just not not, you know, conforming to the heterosexual Christian hegemonic worldview. And lipstick talk is still currently among the most prominent influencers, affecting actual material conditions and shaping both the rhetoric and propaganda while impacting legislation. Friend of the limbs of tick Tock and DeSantis, press secretary Christina Preshaw has said quote the bill that liberals inaccurately call don't say gay would be more accurately described as an anti grooming bill. If you are against the anti grooming bill you probably are a groomer or at least you don't denounce the grooming of four to 8 year old children. Silence is complacency. This is how it works Democrats. This is how it works Democrats. And I didn't make the rules. So yeah see you see how we have. See how that works? You call, you call the don't say gay bill a anti grooming bill. So then everyone, anyone who criticizes it is now a groomer. Is it that a fun way to play with words? Isn't that nice? That is a fun way to play with words, Garrison. I love it. So the the past few months we've seen this you know, queer people are groomers, meme reach, seemingly never, never before seen heights. And at least is, is, and at the very least is the highest and most memetic it's ever been in the past two decades. You know, it's. And it's really building off of all of the kill your local pedophile **** right? It sure is. It's it's Robert. Do you want to briefly, briefly talk about kill your local local pedophile? I mean, it's a bunch of bumper stickers. It's a slogan. Like, I know dudes who are not at all fascists and say that because they're like new dads and they're horrified at the. But like the whole like the core of it is this right wing, and it kind of started off in like the sort of libertarian gun nut communities, but it's it's it's it's really used a lot. This sort of. It's a group that you can talk about doing anything to. You can talk about killing. You can like fetishize murdering, and if you can then like define other groups as inherently pedophilic, then you can do anything to them, right? Like that's the basic idea is if you get people saying it's always OK to use vigilante violence against this group and obviously no one's going to ******* defend a child molesters, but then you start making the case that people who are not in fact molesting children are somehow pedophiles or, you know. Or somehow related to pedophiles and then suddenly it's OK to kill them, it's OK to do violence. Massive social groups like, yeah, all of gay and trans people. So yeah, if if you conflate these two things, they're able to make these things represent the same thing in someone's mind. That makes homophobia now not a bad thing, but like a moral imperative. Like you have to be homophobic because these people are grooming children. And you can get, you get this interesting thing too, which like there are people who are like not quite as far in. Who will? Who will say you? I see things a lot where it's like someone's like, Oh well, I don't have a problem with gay people, but like, they shouldn't groom kids. And it's like, Yep. This is that's not what's happening, bro. Yeah, no. Do you know, do you know what else doesn't groom kids? I mean the Washington State Highway Patrol definitely does Garrison. But let me tell you, if you want somebody to groom your children, the Washington Highways State Highway Patrol will do that. But you know what they won't do is protect those children in the event of danger because that might endanger them. So look, look sometimes, sometimes, right someone is someone is killing your kid and you need to get pepper sprayed and when that time calls. You you will beg for the Washington Highway State Patrol. Well you'll beg for a different Police Department. But when those police get in trouble because of their failure to act, then the Washington State Highway Patrol will show up to protect those cops. Anyway. Here's here's the ads. We are back. So as the queer people at groomers **** was reaching the most memetic and the highest rate of of of trending that it's it has had in in decades this past April at the height of the recent increased wave of anti queer. Legislation and NT LGBTQ rhetoric this this is when some terminally online teenagers tried to start kink at pride discourse once again. And I I do not want to talk about this, but I've written stuff about it, so I'm going to. Literally when I was like thinking about, I like realized I was gay and I was like, Oh my God, I should come out and then I would my like. One of the things that I spent a long time thinking about was, does this mean I have to do can't get pride discourse? And this is like a serious consideration? For a long time I would have said no, of course not, I'm never going to do this. Why would I do that it live, but here we are. No. Anyway, uh, doing kicking? Doing kink at pride discourse then and even still now, while the anti queer onslaught is accelerating at the highest pace that's had in years? Sure seems to be like dumping fuel on the fire. What's up with that, kids? Why so anyway, the discourse itself revolves around whether a kink, apparel, or paraphernalia render the pride space unsafe for minors or quote UN quote non consensual observers. Heavy, heavy quotation marks there, by the way, but also it is heavily rooted in assimilationist and respectability politics, and a push for LGBTQ people to be seen as more acceptable or more normal while still existing in a heteronormative society. And now, obviously, I'm not a fan of this discourse happening in the 1st place, especially now. Like, why are you doing it now, during all the groomer stuff? Stop it. That's stop it. Don't do that. Quit it. Why are you doing this? But first of all, I also want to point out how this entire discourse runs on the same train of thought that fuels all of the Schumer stuff in the 1st place. It it it's it's picking at the same part of human brains. So. Here's I'm going to read this post that went super viral about a month ago that that sparked that sparked the new wave of this much, much frustrated discourse. Quote LGBTQ youth being uncomfortable with kinks. That pride is not homophobia. Kinks at Pride might have been fine if this was still the 1900s where adults were the only ones attending pride. But it's not the 1900s anymore, and now kids are way more involved in celebrating our identities. The celebrating our identities part there is really important, and we'll talk about this more soon. But look, largely in the past, like 20 years there's been this shift with queerness and sexual orientation being less about who you **** and more like a personality aspect or a social identity with a branded aesthetic. It's it's this. It's like it's it's which is in some ways good, like it's some ways good that people are more able to express themselves however they want. But, you know, kids at school aren't getting bullied for being gay anymore, which again is good less than they were. They're getting bullied less somewhat, depending on where you live. But it's also kind of, it's made people. Forget the whole like. Like, get used bash back or gays don't bash back, but shoot first. Like it it's forgot. We don't have that. That's not as a core component of queerness anymore, because queerness is now able to be kind of more safe and sanitized. And it's it's right. It's like it's and it's it's it's a personal identity in a way that it's it's not just about who you **** anymore. It's like this, like personal identity aspect, which I'm not saying is bad. It's just that there's this thing that's happened that's changed the way we talk about sexual orientation, hey? Quick pause. This is Garrison from the future here. Just popping in to clarify a bit on what I mean regarding this note on identities and identifying as various shades of queer. What I'm getting at is that when observing some of the baby queers around my age, or maybe a bit younger, queerness is seen as a more available option for young people when putting together their personality or sense of self, and more separated from the nitty gritty details of who you **** now that queerness is generally more tolerated. Now, don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of being free to choose queerness in in many ways I consider myself as having. Chosen to be gay. The thing about framing that as you're quote UN quote personal identity, as opposed to simply choosing to be what you are, is that the former lets you wield that quote UN quote identity against other people or other queer people that disagree with you. It's it's this thing where queerness is filtered through the lens of brands and like brand recognition, which is definitely made worse by social media, dating apps, personal profiles. And personal BIOS, and it's part of this cultural push to, like, have everyone create their own personal brand. And like, I don't want to identify as genderqueer, I just am genderqueer. I don't identify as gay. I just like cat boys, therefore I am gay. It's a different ontological framing, and one that I think is less susceptible to heteronormative, assimilationist ideas, and like the capitalist marketing to queerness. As a brand or as a market demographic? If your queerness is a personal identity that's more sanitized, more approachable for a heteronormative society, then you get to use your identity to attack gay people whose queerness is more based in deviant sexuality and alternative communities. I'm gonna I'm gonna read the the follow up tweet to this to this thing that sparked the new discourse. Quote not even all LGBTQ adults are comfortable with seeing kinks at pride. There's nothing from there's nothing stopping you guys from adjusting or having after events strictly for adults when they partake in that. You all need to adjust that every LGBTQ person feels comfortable attending. So let's let's just do some like queer history here for a SEC. The first pride was a riot on. On on that night in June, in the 1969 Nice, the police raided the Stonewall Inn, one of the largest private, private gay clubs in the US at the time. The patrons at the bar, you know, trans women of color, homeless queer teens, drag Queens, lesbians and leather daddies fought back. Lots of trans teenagers threw bricks at cops. And, like, a fair number of those trans teenagers were also sex workers. Kink including, you know, like. Leather daddies and lots of aspects that we now view as as like kink or **** has been a part of pride since its literal inception like way back in 1969. And while like while drag isn't considered King Canal in 2022, it still is considered sexually deviant. But back in like the 20th century in in you know in in 1969 New York City still had laws that prohibited cross dressing. So drag used to be way more ***** than it is now. And, like, basically all queer sex used to be unacceptable. Kink and many it was illegal. It was literally illegal or just a crime. And it was a crime in Texas until like to hear I like. Around when I graduated high school, 2003 was when the Supreme Court said so. It's no longer an enforceable law. It might go back to because it's illegal to, and it's illegal. It's still illegal to own more than five ******. Yeah, it's six. Or is it five? I think it's five, but it might be 6. So, like all queer sex used to be unacceptable. Kink and many logistical aspects of gay ******* used to happen in public. I'm going to, I'm going to quote an article from them. dot US, quote for some people, gay rights and gay liberation. Do not hinge on particulars of sexual desire. For years, I've heard that we aren't just our ironic identities. But for many of us, it does begin there, and it does revolve around the ways we organize our ****** choices. Before LGBTQ plus, people had pride parades. Our community spaces were not just bars, but cruising spots like bath houses, dungeons, and public restrooms. It should be no surprise that many queer folks find their sex lives and their sense of community. To be entertwined, **** subversive sexuality, and leather culture have enjoyed a long history within the LGBTQ rights movement. They are inherent expressions of queer culture and sexuality. Being free to signal your sexuality out in the open, within a queer context, is the entire point of pride. UN quote so like. All of this discourse around pride and kinker pride reflects a modern but regressive idea that sexuality is inherently damaging to see, experience, or think about in a public context, especially if that sexuality is inherently queer. And there's this other idea that we see a lot of in this type of discourse, and it's mirrored a little bit with like, the groomer stuff too, that if you see someone quote UN quote engaging in kink and like in the case of pride. It's like what? Wearing a collar, a harness, or a put mask that just the act of observation is somehow a violation of consent. And it's really frustrating because indication of sexuality in a non vanilla sense while in public is not a violation of consent. Like I didn't consent quote UN quote consent to see the rainbow cops, right? But public indication of sexuality is not a consent violation. And again, indicating sexuality is like the entire point of pride weaponizing quote UN quote consent to call out people that we see. But don't interact with who are quote UN quote dressed too sexual in our own mind is bad for multiple reasons. It also potentially dilutes legitimate claims of non consent in cases of actual sexual violence. And it's it's like this thing like if you look at someone in a put mask, there is no consent violation there. That's a really weird thing that people that people talk about and it's not. It's not like I I'm not trying to start fights on the Internet with like these tender. Of your children. Because like, and I I don't want anyone to find like these like you know, months old posts and stuff and start harassing these people. But that post has like over 30,000 likes and thousands and thousands and thousands of retweets and it basically just repeats like old queer bashing talking points that conflate kink and queer visibility with public sex that endangers children. And like conflating gays being visible and semi clothed with being like dangerous to children are the same talking points that it gets used for book bans, conversion therapy. And they don't say bills, right. So idea that if you look at a gay person shirtless, that's dangerous to a kid, that's the same. That's the same underlying motivation that fuels all of the scrubber discourse. It's it's it's the whole thing where it's like, I'm OK with gay people. I just don't want to see it, right. It's like that that that that idea in and of itself is like is is still like exists on that. You know, I didn't consent to look at it type of thing, you know, this, this is other other tweet from somebody. And, like, forcing people to see ***** stuff without consent is really weird. I'm sorry, but I don't want put masks at pride events for families. I saw that **** in real life, and it made me uncomfortable. Don't involve other people in their kinks if they don't consent. And like, looking at someone in a mask isn't involving you in any of these kinks, you're if you're looking at someone in a leather mask, like if that makes you uncomfortable, that that's your problem. You don't have a right to not be uncomfortable with how people look or are in public. Look, every time I go out into the world, I see something that makes me uncomfortable. I see a lot of people with children now. Do I think it should be legal to have children? No. Yes, we do. I do think that it should be. It should be illegal. Exactly. So I like. Look, we all have to deal with things that make us uncomfortable. Look like we have a clear solution here. The, the, the, the, the way to deal with events not being family friendly is to get rid of families. That's exactly right. We have to eliminate the concept of the family. Yeah. Come on, come on. Come, come. This manifesto. What? This is 101 **** people. You know you can do this. You were you were quoting from the Communist manifesto. OK, that's interesting. That's that's not where I got it from. But I I feel like, I feel like a lot of these people, many of them like young teens who are complaining about being forced to look at quote UN quote inappropriate things that pride had never actually been to a pride because most of most of modern pride is like really sanitized and chill. Like it's like it is. It is overrun with corporate sponsors, politicians and cops like you, you, you. You are way more likely to see armed police at like a pride March. Then you're then you'll be likely to see like. Hits or like gags or whatever. Like most I it's funny to me because, like, I started going to these and this is before the Internet was what it was, or moral panics were what they were. But like in Texas, I would go to these events where there would be people of all ages and families. These are like little burning regional people would be like at, like on the big night when people are doing like, the fire shows and the fireworks stuff. People would be like ******* and like Manning flamethrowers, like while having sex there, there were like. There was a whole chunk of it that was just like the kink row and you could walk down it and watch people get like whipped and **** a sibian and stuff. It's just like, I don't remember any of this ******* like the only discourse was like, well OK, we should probably like make sure that people know where that kind of stuff mainly happens so that, like, they don't have to walk around it if they don't want to. But like it was. Yeah, it's like this idea that like not even full nudity, but like semi nudity within a queer context is inherently more dangerous to children if it's if it's in a queer context then a straight. Context, right? We have all of these. Even like queer kids can like complaining online about being forced to see things at pride, just like they would see way more skin that they went to like a beach in the summer. Like it's it's there's it revolves in the same homophobic idea that like if if if you look at these things in a queer context that is like more adult than looking at it within a straight context. Yes. It's. I don't know. Trading it's frustrating and like another another reason why that I think many of these like baby leftist tender queers are who are who are crusading against Kinkade pride and complaining about like leather and or like sexy underwear. But lots of them even first of all most of them I think lots of them haven't been deprived because there hasn't really been pride for the past two years and a lot of these people are like 15 years old, but a lot of them also just like admit to never be going to pride because they're too terrified. You see a pop mask like they openly say like, I'm I've never been because I had. Don't want to see these things. Like, sure, you're allowed to do that, but then don't make don't like, don't campaign against king and pride, which will result in your posts getting used by like, homophobic trolls and bigots. I don't go to Chicago because I don't want to see a deep dish pizza, but I don't try to ban them. Like, I understand that. That's the thing you people like. Like, the first time I saw put mask was that ******* Comic Con. Like, it's like like you like. It's not. You don't see like, ban put masks from Comic Con. Like what? Like these these people like these kids are, are basing their fears off of like a few viral photos that are often shared in a disingenuous context. Now we'll talk about these photos in a bit, but you know, these these people are like 15 years old, have never been deprived, and are just like. Completely terrified of, like, actual sexuality. Like they they enjoy they they engage with queerness as like, a personal identity and stuff. But once they get into, like, the nitty gritty of, like, sex, that makes them really uncomfortable. Because 13 because they're kids, that that's OK, you can be uncomfortable with sex that makes sense, that is, that it's appropriate for your age, but then don't make your entire online presence about trying to shut down this massive aspect of queer history. Because, like, the ***** stuff that I've seen at pride is, yeah, on par with what you see at Comic Con. I often will see more, more nudity at Portland's Comic Con then I then I will at any of the pride events I've been to like all all of them are like openly like fetish folks or ***** folks are really responsible and act pretty appropriately at pride. And and the people who like, say otherwise online generally just have not actually been to pride in their entire life. Because, like this, complaining about quote UN quote like, inappropriate fetishes or like ***** conduct is basically code for I am uncomfortable with you being positive about the way you view sex, and I want you to not show it, and I want you to, and I want you to not talk about it, which is the same underlying thought process that people use to be homophobic. It's the it's the exact same thing. Now, a lot of this discourse oversimplifies kink and **** right? Queerness can be about, can be about, love, it can be about it can be about sexual attraction and both. Or sometimes for asexual people, the lacking one or the other, or both. But but by that same token, right, kink, leather, and **** aren't all exclusively about sex. To a large extent, they're also about community building, and I just think these these like earnest think of the youth. Arguments are very silly because even when it comes to youth, because. If you're uncomfortable things, that's totally fine. But in a lot of cases, like queer teenagers also have sex, generally with other queer teenagers, sometimes even in a ***** context. And that's OK. Pride is about celebrating everyone's individual ability to do that and. I I don't like it when when people just rehash old homophobic talking points to, to, and especially during during all of this, all of this group of discourse. Because. A key key part of key part of kink, a key part of like where sex is is is consent. And once you start, you start conflating what consent is by saying that me looking at you wearing a collar is a violation of consent. Once you start undermining what consent actually means, that's like, not a good thing. It's actually not a that is actually a bad thing, especially right now, during all of the during all of all of all of the grammar stuff. So. That is, we are, we've gone and kind of over on on time here, but we're going to make, we're going to make this A2 parter. In the next episode we'll talk a bit more about like tender queers and we'll actually get into the the plans of Operation Pride fall and talk about how we kind of got to this point because, man, there's a lot of kids sharing, sharing pictures online and oh boy, do those pictures originate in some dubious, dubious places so that that that does it for us today. We will, we will see you tomorrow. Umm. Prides fun we should not police what other people do, so yeah anyway. Bye, bye. Football is back, and bet MGM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. You'll also have instant access to a variety of parlay selection features, player props, and boosted odd specials. Just download the bet MGM app today or go to bed. Gm.com and enter a bonus code champion and place your first wager risk free up to $1000. 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And yes, they're always spoiler free so you don't have to worry about anything getting ruined for you. Plus interviews with actors, directors, and writers covering the behind the scenes of your favorite movies. I also keep you in the know with all the latest movie news and movie trailers. Listen to new episodes of movie Mikes Movie podcast Every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back to can happen here. This is part two of our discussion on God Operation Pride fall and they could get can't get pride discourse and the groomer stuff and how they all combine in this. Really horrifying. Really. Way that I wish they didn't because it's pretty frustrating. So last episode I I talked towards the end I I talked to decent amount about tender queers. And I actually would like would like to define this term here and kind of get into why these why these people are boosting these specific like talking points that are just kind of regurgitate old types of homophobic stuff. They claim it doesn't, but like it does you're using this exact same logic you're just kind of reframing it. So tender queries are this the type of like they're kind of like an in joke for like the queer community of this like personality type generally the the tender queers are like a. You know, typically a Gen Z or a millennial. Queer more likely to be like femme, whether that be like a woman, nonbinary or fem person lesbians, you know, femme, bisexuals, pansexuals, or like queer soft boys, kind of. They feature this, like, combination of personality, designation and aesthetic. And they're known for being especially adept at using like watery language of therapy as a means to, like, get out of most things everything's about, like, holding space. And healing and intimacy. And it's like it. It's wrapped up in this, like, jovial, pastel, bubbly package, right? If you throw in some astrology, some like corduroy overalls, shaved heads and round glasses, and you got yourself like a basic tender queer. And a little quote here from an author named Daisy Jones, from an article that they made. Quote just like the straight soft boy who uses performative sensitivity to get away with being a little **** sometimes, so does the tender. Clear tender queer generally refers to a trope in the queer community of a queer person who presents themselves as being sensitive, hyperfocal of their feelings, sometimes thought of as prioritizing feelings and hyper intentional language over their own harm and privilege. So they they they they kind of use like identity politics to avoid accountability. There's like this competitive oppression and self victimization they they they center themselves and their feelings in social or political movements that aren't necessarily about them. They they kind of they prioritize ineffective methods of self-care. They utilize like gas lighting and dumping the emotional labor of dealing with your own self onto onto others like tender queers are kind of are known to like mask toxicity and manipulativeness in the performative language and aesthetics of social justice. They have this like performative soft hypersensitivity and use identity politics to kind of call out or avoid things that make them uncomfortable and will like. And will publicly declare those things as problematic in in an attempt to force others to conform with their own will. So that's why I describe a lot of these, like younger, younger teens who who use these talking points against against quote UN quote kink at pride as tender queers. Because, like, they're they're people who are really sensitive about what makes them comfortable, and they avoid any they try to avoid or campaign against anything that makes them uncomfortable. And they use all these like performative turns of phrase and talking points to to avoid having actual discussions about it. It's just like weaponization of their marginalized identity as a shield to avoid accountability, or to deflect against people challenging them for abusive behavior. Or in in the in the in like the Pride case this like internalized homophobia. There's there's the these little little tweet exchange for some from some people on the Super viral kicker pride. Just from a month ago, I'm 14 and I don't want to see a half naked person in leather straps and a gag and an event I take my family to. And someone replied like try glancing Eddie, Mardi Gras, or even a public beach before you apply homophobic double standards and then they the poster replied. You think I'm homophobic? I'm literally a trans nonbinary lesbian. So again, this is this is. So this is this is what I mean when I when I when I talk about how the queers right there someone's calling them out for applying this homophobic double standard on how they view like public semi nudity, right? Not even like full nudity, just like how they view public semi nudity like a bikini or something, right? And then they they respond by saying I'm literally a trans nonbinary lesbian and then went on to say also people at those don't wear kink **** and that's why I don't go to Mardi Gras or large public beaches and makes me uncomfortable. Seeing a bunch of adults and kingship being sexual just physically makes me ill people at Mardi Gras and public beaches don't act sexual aware, king **** and so like. I feel like you haven't been to Mardi Gras, but that's just outside of the point. You will see way more skin at a public beach most kingship require, like requires covering your body in a lot of extra stuff. Like if you're wearing a harness or like a latex full leather outfit. You're like showing way less skin than someone wearing a Speedo or a bikini. So maybe you're just uncomfortable with people expressing their sexuality, which in case, don't go to pride. That's what pride is all about. That's the entire point. But yeah, the whole point, like, I'm literally a trans nonbinary lesbian. Like, that's like such a perfect encapsulation of what the tender queer kind of trope is. And, like, not, not, not, not many people like self identify as as tender queers. It's kind of this joke that the more kind of punky queer community has, kind of. It's like an we're putting a label on this, this behavioral trend that we've observed. And it's it's kind of a joke, right? I'm not trying to call out specific people. I'm not. If if you are soft and emotional sensitive, cool, whatever, do do whatever you want. I'm fine. Just don't don't use these things as a shield to justify forcing your will onto other people. It's cool to not. It's totally fine to, like, not like pub people being publicly affectionate or like doing public like, it's perfectly fine to be uncomfortable with that. It's perfectly like, that doesn't mean anything bad. It doesn't mean you're a prude, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, but like, there's nothing wrong with people. Wanting to be public with that at a public event, celebrating the fact that it's they are now less oppressed for doing that thing. Like, yeah, or a beach or Mardi Gras. And like, make sure you're cognizant. If you're engaging in any kind of, like, socially normalized ideas of, like, straight stuff is inherently less sexual than gay stuff, right? I always, I mean, I advocate people being able to, like, get into their own head and figure out why they think certain things like this. It's it's this like idea of meta thought trying, trying to think about why you think about things so if you if you're, if you're more uncomfortable. With two men kissing than you are with what then one man and a woman kissing? You should think about that. You should be like, even even as like, even as a trans, nonbinary lesbian. If you, if you, if you, if you're more, if you're more comfortable looking at two men, kiss. You should think about why, why? What social conditioning has caused this to happen? Because that's something that people have been pushing for a long time. Is that, yeah, get you stuff is like more adult or more mature than queer stuff. I think that's a big part of of of these types of things being at pride. It's like. Pushing back on that idea. So like I think, and the reason why we we see more of these now is like there are these baby tender queers who grew up in a world where you were less likely to get ******* assaulted for being gay while also growing up on the Internet in the age of Tumblr and and Instagram, right? These kids were able to construct their own comfortable, safe bubble versions of reality online, only being exposed to what they want, when they want, right? They get they get to only view it, things that they find aesthetically pleasing. And the pandemic certainly heightened this right with people. Being forced to solely exist in their self catered online worlds. So now with the outside world opening up, some of these soft baby tender queers are going through puberty and are dealing with their quote UN quote uncomfy feelings and the added notion of being exposed to things that you have specifically not sought out like that. That causes them to be uncomfortable, right? If if you're, if you're, if you're a female person who's just attracted to other family people, having to having to look at dudes be affectionate may not be your cup of tea. But. And you may not, like, enjoy it, but that's like it's just as queer as you are, so you shouldn't you can't prioritize your queerness over somebody else's. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's like there's this collection of baby gays that gets uncomfortable being reminded that people like, especially people whom they are not personally attracted to, have sex. It's like if they're reminded that this happens and they don't like it, it's like it feels like they have this sort of like anxiety just about about just looking at something that they perceive as sexual in nature, right. And for this, for them, this includes other but to differently queer people wearing leather or being semi nude. Like dudes being shirtless or women being shirtless. Like, I think that that's a whole other double standard that should be pushed back upon. But like, again, it's pride, not anymore naked than people at the beach. So you're not, it's not actually if they're very selective in the types of things that they that they will they that they will focus on. And it plays into this notion that's used by all like anti-gay legislation, that gayness is inherently more sexual than being straight, right? It's it's it's it's more sexual, it's more mature, it's more adult. Because for a long time being gay was exclusively seen as like a hypersexual. Deviant act, and now, especially among Gen Z baby queers, being queer is now less tied to specifically the act of sex, right? Queerness is much more of an like an overarching personal identity now, especially as like as an intersex, with like gender and stuff, right? You know, whether that be nonbinary or this other stuff like pansexual, bisexual, what have you, but to kind of circle back to the kinka pride stuff. People want us dead for being queer. It doesn't ******* matter if someone's parading around in a collar. If you're uncomfortable, you should maybe learn to fight. Actually fight back against people who actually want to kill you. Like Pride was a riot, you should. You should sort out your uncomfy feelings elsewhere, or direct your or direct your uncomfy feelings that the people attacking us. So maybe, maybe you don't prop up kink at pride discourse when the accusations of queer people being all groomers is that is that an all time high? And there's fascists. Organizing to like, shoot us at Pride marches. So maybe consider that before you do discourse on Twitter.com. I'm gonna do one little quote and then we will have an ad break. Just gonna end this section with a quote from them.com again. Quote kinks, sex, and protest are all inherent parts of pride. One of the core tenets of pride is liberation and working against cultural shaming. Calling to quote, not perform your kinks and fetishes at pride because some miners are there and kink can quote, sexualize the event, UN quote. Implies that celebrating sexuality and kink is openly bad, and normalizing these things should be a goal of pride. **** subversive sexuality, and leather culture have enjoyed a long history within the LGBTQ rights movement, and such public space and sexuality are driven by much more than libido or countercultural impulses. They're an inherent expression of queer culture and queer sexuality, and as such deserve a place of pride as much as anything else. OK, and now it's time to actually get into what the title of these episodes is about. The Operation Pride Fallstaff we're going to talk about this thing that sucks. So whether you're looking at the conservative groomer discourse or the tender queer kink at pride discourse, you'll see a lot of the same logic, as well as a lot of the same photos. We've we've talked a lot about memes on the show, and I I'm not going to get, I'm not going to get into, like, the powder memes very much right now. But suffice to say that, like, a picture can stick in your head a lot easier than a bunch of words. In and throughout to the groomer and kick it pride ****. There are a few select photos that people use to demonstrate to their opinions on how gay people are a threat to children, either. Either they're just pictures of adults and like kink associated garb usually like full latex body suits or put masks, or and there's these like specifically like there's these two specific pictures of kids just like standing next to adults who are wearing put masks that get used a lot. There's also, there's also a lot of pictures of like drag Queen story time and whenever. Whenever I see any of these very specific pictures, I flashback to when I first came across the original Operation Pride Fall 4 Chan thread back in 2020, because these are actually all of all of the exact same pictures. So Operation Pride Fall was a cyber harassment campaign started on 4 Chan, targeting the degeneracy of the LGBTQ community by attempting to sway public opinion against queer people by linking being gay. Who, grooming and pedophilia. So checking back in in 2022? Oh boy oh boy has has things happened so initially organized on Fortune, discord and Telegram right before Pride Month, the campaign set out targets and methods to flood the social media platforms of gay venues, pride sponsors, and LGBTQ people or supporters with spam, anti-gay memes and media. Usually photos intended to imply a link between being openly. Earlier and the grooming of children and operating online under the banner of Operation Pride Fall, the the campaign started on May 10th, 2020 when an Anonymous 4 Chan poster posted a thread on poll outlining Operation Pride Fall, which was pitching it as a crowdsourced campaign aimed at damaging the LGBTQ community during the month of June in 2020. The plan centered around quote UN quote red Pilling users in the comments sections of companies that support LGBTQ causes on social media. The the the 4 Chan Post read quote every June, hundreds of massive corporations banded together to smother social media in posts and flavor of Pride Month, a code word for the degeneracy that is LGBT activism. Many of these accounts are rather small and get very little engagement, yet they continue to post without backlash. Beginning on June 1st, the goal of Operation Pride Fall is to get on Twitter, Instagram, et cetera, and drop a **** ton of disturbing red pills on homosexuality on the Commons of the lesser known pages. The bigger pages are OK targets, but posts tend to get unnoticed in the sea of other comments commenting on smaller pages, ones with less than 100 likes and so means anyone who views it will see the posts, and companies will reconsider their pro Pride posts afterwards. UN quote so. If you scroll through the archived initial like Pride fall thread, you'll see a crowdsourced collection of pictures that they intended to flood the Internet with under, like in the comments section of posts discussing pride or discussing LGBTQ activism or whatever. So in this in this like, crowdsourced collection of photos, we see a lot of drag queen story time stuff, but many of these pictures and memes are now the same ones used both in the recent groomer thing. Then in the past two years of Kinkade pride discourse, it's it's the exact it's the exact same photos. It's there's like there's there's hundreds of them. There's hundreds of of photos of like you know people and put masks, whatever, like waving waving pride flags. It's it's just there's a lot. There's a lot of them and the specific ones get used for so much of the groomer ****. And it they really started to gain much more visibility during 2020 after the Operation Pride fall. Thing got launched, the operation probably 4 Chan thread also instructed users and how to set up a fake phone numbers to make burner accounts to to comment on these on these social media pages. There's another really interesting part that the Operation Pride fall planning stuff detailed was on on on discord on the Operation Pride fall servers and channels. They users were planning to repurpose Cringey Tik T.O.K videos while relabeling them with anti LGBTQ captions and hashtags. Here's a here's a quote from their, from their, from their planning planning discord and additional idea, we can redpoll zoomers on Tik T.O.K and literally. Build a ******* puppet army to **** the **** out of millennials. We should expand this operation to as many social media outlets as possible in order to maximize effort. Let's operate like this on Tik T.O.K. Convince any Gen Z sibling or relatives to do some kind of ****** gesture charade. Slash horror dance and then add LGBTQ critical captions on top of it and repost it under trending hashtags. So you see elements of this exact strategy mirrored one year later in libs of Tik T.O.K by getting videos of people being, I don't know, kids and like kind of cringy because kids are kind of cringy, but videos of kids on Tik T.O.K and mischaracterizing, you know, Tik T.O.K videos and adding adding LGBTQ talking points on top of them to sway the public opinion of queer people. It's the, it's the exact same strategy as a similar idea was also implemented alongside setting up fake dating app profiles. Not only spread their anti-gay kind of grooming memes, but also to farm viral content by catfish and gay people and getting them to like be in embarrassing interactions. Another quote on Tinder, Bumble and Grinder set up freight profiles with legit convincing images and descriptions that criticized LGBT. So it's just it's trying to catfish queer people and like then I guess spam them with pictures of these like grooming memes and see what their reaction is, then post it right? It's. So the the whole operation profile strategy might appear pretty simple, right? It's like basically glorified shitposting setting up a bunch of fake sockpuppet accounts and demonizing queer people in the comments section of small corporations and influencers. But there definitely is a lot more to it than that, right? There was there was this element of like planned escalation starting off 1st as like appearing as reasonable commenters, right, acting in very good faith, just as somebody concerned by kids being exposed to to sexual materials, whether that be, you know, people in drag. The library reading books or people at a pride parade, right? So instead of immediately going on like full 100% gay bashing. Saying that we should, you know, kill all deviant trans people, which a lot of conservative commentators just say now. Like Elijah Schaffer, who just posts memes about wanting to kill trans kids, these these these board fascists unfortune tried to coordinate a slow, more insidious approach which they would hope would just gradually turn the tide of public opinion against queer people. Here's a here's a snippet from one of the pride fall organizing chats. Quote keep it Normie, palatable and friendly. This means no Nazi or Hitler ****. The goal is to make them question whether what they're supporting is really the right thing. So as as as Pride Month progressed the the the Pride fall participants coordinated on 4 Chan Discord and Telegram to slowly increase the frequency and intensity of the campaign. Another quote from the organizing chat quote think about it as waves. Day one is simply questioning homosexuality and then as the days goes on it will get worse and worse until the end of Pride Month. So in terms of physical things that actually had, I believe Operation Pride fall resulted in a few gay events getting shut down. There was like this event at I think it was it was like a like A at a queer nightclub in the UK like that got shut down. There was a few other like like obviously like material results that that they had by doing this harassment campaign against venues and corporations. But I think they're just they were more successful in first of all spreading specific memetic images that are now commonly used. In the grooming stuff and in the king of pride stuff, some, some of which these images were not really used in discourse before but now are commonplace. I think that's really where more of this idea succeeded. So over the course of the month they they will want to get more regular people to start associating members of the LGBTQ community with pedophilia and then in in order to do that the the way they see it is by just gradually shifting this discussion and then as public opinion alters, they hope that brands will distance themselves from the LGBTQ. Community and stop doing more, more pride **** right? It's like, that was that was another big part of what their intention was. And they may not have done all that stuff immediately. Like they may not may not have succeeded in that, but they definitely did succeed in the prevalence of the images that they were trying to intentionally spread, because that absolutely has happened. Do you know who else loves implanting ideas into your brain? That's that's that's right the the products and services that sponsor this podcast Go Go Buy, Go buy their product or get a job at one of the. You know, you know the one I'm talking about. Anyway, here's here's the ads. And we are. We are back. Wasn't wasn't it fun reading about Operation Pride fall? Didn't that just bring bring joy to your ears? So happy. Me too. So many parts of maintenance. Yeah. So as we mentioned, a big part of their attempts to sway public opinion is by spamming photos and memes that attempt to showcase just how dangerous gay people are to children, whether that be drag Queens doing story time at a library. Photos of of gay people doing quote UN quote king cat pride. You know, basically, basically they're trying to say how could any reasonable person or corporation support pride. It's essentially a grooming parade, right that that's the, that's the thing that they were trying to implant. And one of the things that operation profile was successful in was popularizing a few of these can get pride photos, many of which were then subsequently used last year during pride discourse and used this year as well, most mostly by some. Some like anti sex people on the left. And some of these young tender, Queers and you know the this, this, the same photos are used in grooming stuff and in pride fall stuff and and kinda pride stuff because it's the same basic psychology at play right. The idea that sexuality in a queer sense is dangerous, and way more deviant than sexuality in a heterosexual context. Right like straight people kissing is rated G gay gay people kissing is rated PG or PG 13. It's it's it's that idea but accelerate it. Of another correlation between the openly homophobic groomer talking points and like the tender queer stuff is, is this is this idea that I'm only comfortable seeing expressions of sexuality that I can relate to or also find attractive. And another interesting thing about a lot of these photos is that a lot of these photos that they use aren't actually photos of pride. A lot of a lot of the photos that they use are actually from the Folsom Street Fair, which is like a kink festival that takes place. San Francisco every year, and it is. Hard to exaggerate how ***** the Folsom Street fair is, so it's very *****. But also obviously because gay people have sex, gay people also exist in the Folsom Street Fair. They may even waive a pride flag. Shocking. So a lot of these photos that that that they use in the grooming stuff and then the ticket pride stuff are actually from the full sub street fair. They're not actually photos of pride parades of. It's and it's. It's. And of course, anyone who's been to pride would kind of know that because pride is not like the Folsom Street fair. They are very different events, and that's another indicator of how a lot of these people who prop up this discourse online have never been to pride either, because they're sharing photos at the Folsom Street Fair and saying it's pride. Obviously, lots of these Nazis unfortunate have never been to the Folsom Street fair or pride. But they they also share these same photos because, hey, it's it's people who look gay doing sexual things in public. That means it's at pride, and it's a danger to children, even though a lot of them are actually at the Folsom Street fair. So if then if if you're a queer person and you're reposting these Folsom Street fair pictures and claiming to be front and claiming that they're from a pride parade to bash like kinda pride stuff, reconsider that. Because you're basically just doing the work that Neo Nazis wants to do. Just you're just doing it on your own time, right? Like it's you're repurposing the exact same photos that they were that they were putting out there within this context and just not even, not even knowing where these. These were these pictures are from. So stop, stop that I can consider, not if if you have to like. If you're gonna go to all of this, work to denounce queer people for like. Existing maybe you should consider while you're doing that, because wow, that's that sucks. Because calling the Folsom Street fair a pride parade and then demonizing it because then and then and then demonizing pride because there's people who act like pretty ***** is not not great because that's not what anything is happening. Yours. None of none of that is accurate. So. That's it's really frustrating to look at to look at all of all of the ways these things, these things combined. Because you get, you get intended queers sharing fulsome street fair pictures, you get conservative politicians sharing them all, calling them pride stuff. But again like a lot of the stuff you see there isn't even like. One of them isn't like a lot of the pictures don't even have, like, full nudity, so that's not necessarily like. It's not. It's not even super abhorrent, but it's you're conflating these these things in a really disingenuous way, and you're just repeating the exact same things that Nazis have been trying to get you to repeat for years and you should consider. Why that happens so all of the grooming stuff obviously has gotten has gotten worse in the in the past few months. Definitely, definitely ballooned around the around the don't say gay bill. And this got tied into a whole bunch of stuff happening in Florida with the Disney Corporation and a lot of the grimming stuff got tied to conservatives attacking Disney now and calling Disney a grooming organization. We've had, we've had far right candidates show up in front of in front of Disney World. To do protests, we've had Nazis show up in front of Disney World to do protest. We've seen a lot of mega people show up at Disney World to do protests. All against Disney's grooming of children by including anything not straight in any of their materials, which is already like so little, which is also like just extremely funny of like imagining you bring Walt Disney, Walt Disney and he's like, come on, man, like, guys, we're all on the same side here. It's. Yeah. And like, I don't know, like, do you, I don't know if I really actually think that. Like, do you do all these, all these people actually think that millions of teachers, Democrats, corporate entertainment creators are all complicit in this in a long term planning of like to, to sexually groom minors? Some, some might believe that, right, that that kind, that kind of overlaps with some tunon stuff and the paranoia around like child trafficking, but I think. Others understand that they're kind of being hyperbolic, and they're being inflammatory to get people angry and to get people like, very, very like active in their in their hatred of gay people, right? They needs to old school homophobia, kind of picking a bad look. They need to find a new way to rebrand it. And now it's with this grimmer stuff. And like a gay teachers, trans teachers, right. Gender identity stuff, right? A lot of it is now wrapped up in like, trans issues. But I I want to read this quote by a right wing writer named Rod a drier. It was, it was, it was, it was cited in the Atlantic. And I think it's actually a really good look at how the people who are smart on the right, how that they are intentionally using this grooming label quote about the term groomers. It's usually used to describe pedophiles who are preparing innocent kids for sexual exploitation. I think it is coming to have a somewhat broader meaning. An adult who wants to separate children from a normative sexual and gender identity to inspire confusion in them and to turn them against their parents and all the normative traditions and institutions in society. And may not be specifically to groom them for sexual activity, but it is certainly to groom them, to take them on a sexual slash gender identity at odds with the norm, which really. I think that that quote, that quote really showcases what's going on in their brains there. Yeah. And this is something, I think like dryer, like Rob Dryer in particular. Doing this I think is a really bad sign because people who don't know who Rod Dreher is, she's like a weirdo Catholic guy. He's been like a right wing, like Catholic. I think he's a right wing Catholic columnist for a long time. And like, you know, if you go back to like 2017, his big thing was this whole was this thing called the Benedict option, which was basically like, OK, so like, secular societies become. Erupted I'd like. Christians should just pull out of it, right, and go live with their own communities that could be sort of like, you know, if we like we, we've, we've, we've, we've lost this world. We have to, like, create a new world which we can live around, sort of like. Christian truth or whatever. And he, he he was in this long running kind of like battle with a sort of like. I guess like openly Phalangist kind of like openly fascists. I mean, not quite openly fascist, but like people, people who are reading, like, what's his name? People who are reading Schmidt and like, the Nazi lawyers who were like, OK well we, you know, instead of as opposed to this thing of like, we're Catholics, we're going to pull back from the world. But their thing was we're going to use, we're going to use like the state to enforce Christian doctrine. And Drew had sort of like fought that and the fact that dryer is now just full on in this grooming **** right. That is really bad. Yep. And and looking again, you know if you want to go back into your history, right. Like this is this is the kind of flip that. Happened. That brought the evangelicals into the political scene, right? Like, you have this flip from like, people being like, well, the rapture is coming inside is in Pierce. We're not going to become politically engaged to, oh hey, look, we can use the state to just, like, destroy our political enemies and create the Kingdom of heaven on Earth. And yeah, this is. This is not good. This is. Yeah, but I think specifically that quotes a really good insight to how the smart conservatives who like know what they're doing. Like they know it's not actual grooming, but it's if they can, if they can use that word within the context of being like it's about getting, it's about getting kids to adopt A non normative sexual identity. Again, it's like non normative, right? It's confusion in them, turning them against the institutions and society, right, all of all of these things that. Is that is mirrored across lots of grimy discourse, the kinker pride discourse, all this kind of stuff. It's it's it's the same it's the same thing. It's like a non normative sexuality is more sexual than a normative sexuality. It's this whole idea, man, and it's not great because it's not going to stop with kids either. It's not going to we we, I talked with I talked with this a lot, how how once they ban you know, trans healthcare for minors they're going to bump it up to age 25. Then they're going to bump it up to. No one has it at all, and. I have, I got, I got an update on that front. So first of all for a recent legislation, there's the Alabama felony healthcare ban for trans youth, which forcibly did transitions teens across the state that that that that, that that's going to enacted. And in Missouri there's a similar bill in the works officially titled The Save Adolescence from Experimentation Act and it applies to individual into individuals younger than 18 years old. And it would it would inhibit Missouri physicians and healthcare providers and prevent them from providing gender affirming healthcare to patients. And it turns out Missouri lawmakers a few weeks ago were debating the bill seeking to restrict access to gender affirming care for minors and. And they also suggested that access to medical interventions like hormones be withheld from transgender and nonbinary individuals until at least their 25th birthday. During public hearings go in Missouri for House Bill 2649, Laurie Haynes, a psychologist, testified that she believes young adults under the age of 25 are unable to fully comprehend the dramatic and drastic and irreparable changes their body will go under if they receive gender affirming medical treatments like. Judy blockers or hormone therapies? Hayes also said that she supported getting conversion therapy for trans kids. Yeah, I'll bet she thinks that 18 year old should be able to buy AR fifteens, though. Joined the military, join the military. I'm a cop. Cops. So it's already happening. We already have lawmakers and we have psychologists being brought in to testify that this is the case. People they want this is going to be the next thing they they want this to happen. I'm just gonna say obviously. A recent study published in the Journal of America in the in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that receiving gender affirming care, including purity blockers and hormones, between the ages of 13 and 20 is associated with 60% lower odds of moderate or severe depression and 73% lower our odds of suicidality. Another study published late last year by the Trevor Project found that among transgender and nonbinary miners, hormone therapy was associated with nearly 40% lower odds of recent depression. Were suicide attempt over the last year and a lot of the effects of puberty blockers and even hormonal replacement therapy actually are reversible and are not damaging. So, I mean, but we we all know that. There's that horrible Matt Walsh trans documentary coming out soon. God. Yeah. Yeah. That. Yeah. And I know in the trailer, he he says that one of the drugs used to give puberty blockers to minors is also used as a chemical castration for sexual assault perpetrators. Which is kind of true, but. It's castration in the sense that you need to take the drug always for it to work. It is a it's a hormone blocker. It stops testosterone from from being produced. If you go off of it, it's going to happen again. It's not a permanent castration, it's going to suppress testosterone. You know, a popular medication for people with heart problems is also a highly explosive compound. Oh no. Yeah, out things can be used in different ways. Yeah, like 100% of cancer victims are found with Dihydrogen. No oxide in their system. Like so but yeah anyway this we're going to see a lot of we're going to see a lot of lies about HRT coming up soon because that this Matt Walsh talking about is going to be stupid. But again he he doesn't understand the science. Obviously he's he's a propagandist. But the the last thing I want to talk about here. It's what's going to be happening in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Now taking taking their cue from the the the the I'm I'm gonna be I'm quoting I'm gonna quote an article here by die by daily costs they did a really a really really good write up David Newirth wrote it. David, David Neiwert for the record, like the thing that he has been this beat that that we're in, like writing about these people. David's been doing it for like 30 years. He's he's amazing. He's he's incredible. Yeah. So I'm gonna quote from here. This is the last thing we'll we'll we'll close with. Taking a cue from the incoming tide of far right fear mongering about grooming and an LGBTQ agenda in schools and libraries, a group of Idaho biker militiamen are planning to show up to confront people celebrating pride at an event in downtown Coeur d'Alene, Idaho and in a in a public park next month, two men from the leadership of Panhandle Patriots, a militia oriented bikers club based in northern Idaho. Justin Allen. The group's vice president and Jeff White, it's Sergeant at Arms, told a recent gathering at a church hosted by Republican State House member Heather Scott that they planned to have a gun driven event next month in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, the same day as the city's Pride celebration at a park less than a mile away. And they planned a confrontation. Going to play a clip of them announcing this and yeah, give it a listen, these parades are government funded. Many of you aren't aware right now. And Coeur d'Alene? On the 10th of June there is Family Day. And in Family Day they are promoting family values, activities and everything. They're very following day. They're having gay pride day. In the very same park. The very next day where they would be allowed to parade through all of Coeur d'Alene. Drag queen dancers education hour making all this material available for all the kids in a park that is designed for kids. We are having an event the very same day. That very same day we actually intend to go head to head with these people, a line must be drawn in the sand. Good people need to stand up. As she was talking about the repercussions, we say damn the repercussions. Stand up, take it to the head. Go to the fight. If you can possibly. We know a lot of you are monitored. We live in Bonner County. We are fighting in multiple counties. We are asking for all of you to come stand with us. Our event is advertised as gunderland because it's an anniversary of when we stood to protect our community. We're standing again. To protect our community, we shifted our date to be available to go head to head with these people. They are trying to take your children. This fight is not just paper. It's not just words. It's not just politicians. They have to see people standing in their face saying no more. So, well, that sucked. Uh, and is entirely, entirely expected. So that the. The meeting at this at this church, read by a Republican House member, was titled the Game Plan to remove inappropriate materials in our schools and libraries. It was it was held at a Calvary Chapel in a small town north of Sandpoint, ID. Scotch has a long history of associations and identifications with the far right patriot movement, specifically in Idaho and. It was bad weather, Scott, the Republican State House member, about an hour into the night, Scott invited the two militia dudes up to the podium to speak, and they said that so. Yeah, it's in in a flyer posted by the Panhandle Patriots advertising their planned conversation at at at at Pride at a flyer that they made. Shows shows a drag queen reading at a Public Library and urges people to join in and standing up against the indoctrination and grooming of our children. And if you don't protect children, you are part of the problem. So yeah, they're planning to take a whole bunch of guns the same day as a pride parade, and we'll see what happens. I love that. That's that. We're just going to see what happens, you know? And I genuinely, very incredibly, deeply hope we're not reporting on the result of that, because Yep, yeah. So anyway, before you share kickett pride discourse, think this is what happens. This is what happens when you engage this in this type of rhetoric that queer sexuality is inherently more dangerous to kids because. Anyway, I'm sad now. Yeah, this isn't really an upper of of an episode. You don't say, but it's it is important to talk about. So if you're going to pride this year, please be careful because. There's a lot of a lot of worsening attacks on queer people bringing life back, and you shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to do this. But this is the world we living and ifec. Anyway, well. That does it for us today. It could happen here. Hopefully it doesn't happen here, but it could. 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You maybe even heard the rumors your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade we hear at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions, sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format, you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know now. It's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. You love movies, or maybe just Anita. Some recommendations on what new movies to watch next time you sit down in front of the TV? Well, I have the podcast for you. Hey, this is Mike D from movie Mikes movie podcast. Your go to source for all things movies and no matter the genre of what you're into, whether it be comedies, romance, action, sci-fi, horror, superhero movies, I cover it all. I'm no critic, I'm just a guy who loves movies. Each episode explores a different movie topic. Plus, spoiler free reviews on the latest new movies in theaters and on streaming. And yes, they're always spoiler free so you don't have to worry about anything getting ruined for you. Plus interviews with actors, directors, and writers covering the behind the scenes of your favorite movies. I also keep you in the know with all the latest movie news and movie trailers. Listen to new episodes of movie Mikes Movie podcast Every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to to it could happen. Here, a podcast about something that did happen that sucked enormously. I'm Christopher Wong. I'm, I'm, I'm the host. Also with me is Garrison and Sophie. Hello. We just morning just really starting off positive there it's look. It's it's this this episode, the next episode. I mean, I guess this episode kind of ends in a high note, but that's great to hear. I'm so happy. I totally believe you. It kind of does. Alright. Yeah. Shereen is also here. Hello. Hi. Sorry, my fault. Keep going. No worries. So this is, this is the the 33rd anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre. Tomorrow's episode, I think we'll actually be going out on, I guess the day that it started kind of starts like the night of like June 3rd. And OK, I'm curious what you choose like. I don't know, like received, like cultural memory of German is because, I don't know. I think I got a kind of weird one, like being from a Chinese family. But as a white Canadian, I have zero amount of my knowledge about the Tiananmen Square massacre. No, really, about tanaman it just, yeah, that is something I never, never have really learned about. Yeah, I know that it happened in 1989. That's that's the American lesson we got on the history of that massacre that it happened in 1989. Really mediocre. Yeah, it's. OK, well, today and tomorrow we're going to go. Well, we're gonna talk. I think less about what happens there specifically in war, about the sort of broader history that's in but. I guess I'll start out so sometimes there's there's there's really 3 changements. There's there's the student protest that's inside Tiananmen Square itself. There's this part of Beijing, like, around the squares, like a bunch of blocks are taken over by workers. And then there's a bunch of protests in other cities. And unfortunately, we're going to be talking about the protests in the other cities because, like, basically nothing is known about them. Other than that, like they happened, but the people who would know aren't talking so for some somewhat obvious reasons. Yeah. And the students themselves, I I think like the the, the the normal version of Tiananmen is like exactly these days, these students and they're like democracy protesters, right. But they're way weirder than that. There's there's like this weird ideological grab bag thing going on there. They're basically what they're ****** *** about is that. This thing is called reform and opening like isn't going fast enough and we should talk about what that sort of is. So reform and opening is it's this. In China and sort of the 80s and some of the 90s. And on the one hand, you have these sort of steps to like, ease restrictions on speech and like rehability intellectuals and like allow for a broader public discourse. But the other half of it is that like they're basically bringing markets back to China, right? And. This. This is a **** show in a lot of ways. If you want to hear about like the CCC, Reinventing Depp and age in about 5 years, go listen to my ******** episode and the poisoned milk scandal. It's a it's a trip. But on the other hand, you have, you know, so you have kind of like opening up, right you you have to just more discourse. They're they're not persecuting intellectuals again sort of that they're so they're they're, they're deep persecuting the intellectuals that they had persecuted. But on the other hand, you get this absolutely draconian sort of like set of crackdowns in the social sphere. You have the one child policy, you have this like really powerful tightening of one man rule in the factory. And you have the sort of the destruction of these. For what we'll get into this more later, but like the sort of limited decision making capacity that workers had had in the factories. I'm just sort of dismantled and so you see these sort of gaps beginning to form here, right like. On the one hand, you have these students who will market reforms to go faster or they want more freedom of speech. They like kind of want democracy, but like mostly what they want is to be in charge of the party so they can crush the sort of like bureaucracy they see as holding market reforms back. And it's worth noting that, like, a lot of these students are involved in what becomes known as NEO authoritarianism, which is the sort of ideology that holds it. Like the strong Central party should take full control of society and destroy the factions and the bureaucracy. And so, you know, and that's how you can lead development and this stuff like. That stuff, like Neo Toryism, survives the protest that goes on to become like a pretty major faction in the CCP itself in the 90s and 2000s. And you know this is this is where things just get weird, right? The student movement itself is very hierarchical and it gets to the point where like. But but by the end of the student movement there. These, the the student leaders are like kidnapping each other over, like who has control of the microphones and like the stages in the square. It is. It is extremely bizarre and. And you know, in in terms of like the protests actually, like if the what the process is trying to do is trying to like, influence this factional fight inside the CCP over like, the speed at which reforms are going to go and this it doesn't work. It's like stunningly ineffectual. The guy they're trying to defend like winds up getting ousted and put under house arrest for the rest of his life. So OK, so those are the student protesters, but. The the the part and that the student protesters are the part of this that, like everyone knows, partly because some of those people escaped to Hong Kong and, you know, they're very influential in sort of shaping the memory there. But there's also the workers that I mentioned earlier, and the students basically like hate the workers. For for for most of the time this protest is going on and this is this is months, right they they literally won't they will not let any of the workers go into the into Tiananmen Square. Like they had, they have this whole system and like in order to get into like increasing, like like closer to the center of the square, you have to be a student, and then to get to the center of the square you have to be like a member of the leadership. It's very weird. And you know, and and like one of the things the workers are trying to do is they want to carry out a general strike. And the students are like, no, absolutely not. Do not do a general strike because largely because, OK, so if these people start doing general strike like, that's something that's not under our control. And you know, OK, so this raises the question, like, if the relationship between the students who are at Sandman and the workers at Sandman are this bad, like, why are the workers even there? And there's a few answers to this question. The sort of the simplest and most immediate one is that like. The workers are initially, they come out because they're ******. They see how badly like the the, the cops and sort of like. The party is is treating the students in the square. So they get mad, but but there's there's other stuff going on too. The late 80s is. Ladies in China is sort of a mess economically. There's rampant inflation and the the the sort of rapid increase in prices is a threat to, you know, the sort of like cheap supply grain which is like the the the sort of main subsidy that. If you're an urban worker that you get, and meanwhile you know you have marketization happening so at the same time that the prices are increasing for everyone and they can't get access to stuff that they need. You have just like CCP princelings like racing down the street and imported sports cars. And like, these are like the only these are the only cars, right? Like people. I don't know, like, people are starting to get bicycles in math sort of in this. But then, you know, it's like, hey, here's here's this, like, party boss guy. He was a sports car. They're like spending your salaries like gambling at race tracks and people just get ****** ***. O they they this are organizing and I'm going to read from. A section of a piece by your hanjiang about what they were doing. Drain the struggle to obstruct the military, workers started to realize the power of their spontaneous organization in action. This was self liberation on an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self organization ensued. The Beijing Works Autonomous federations membership grew exponentially and other workers organizations both within and across workplaces mushroomed. The development of organizations led to a radicalization of action. Workers started organizing self armed quasi militias such as picket cores and daughter died brigades to monitor and broadcast the militaries whereabouts. These quasi militias were also responsible for maintaining public order so as not to provide any pretext for biliary intervention. In a sense Beijing became a city of self managed by workers. It was reminiscent of Petrograd, self armed workers organized in the Soviets and the months between Russia's February and October revolutions at the same time. Beijing workers built many more barricades and fortifications on the street. In many factories that organized strikes and slowdowns, a possible general strike was put on the table as well. Many workers started to build connections between factories. Prepare for a general strike. And yeah, like this is the part of it that like people don't talk about because it wasn't in the square. And I mean the other part, the other faction like factor that's going on here is that like? So the press corps is like sitting in the square. And This is why chanan is sort of like this massive spectacle, right? Because all of this, everything that's happening here inside the square is happening, like in front of the entire Western press corps. And, like, people are like, you know, like people just like pointing cameras at their window, right? And. You know, but on the other hand. The the, the, the the people outside of the square like the workers outside of the square are the workers are getting more organized and this is like. This is absolutely unacceptable to the party and so. Yeah, on on on the night of June 3rd, the army just starts killing them. They they've been a couple of attempts earlier to clear to to to to clear the sort of fortifications that hadn't really worked. But this time, like they they they're able to bring in builder units that aren't from Beijing or like aren't from around the area, and they kill an enormous number of people. Yeah, and and I think it's. I think it's important to note that like. Both in terms of the of the killings that happened immediately and the political persecution like after that, it's it's mostly the workers bearing this, especially in additional massacre. Most of the killing happens as the armies like fighting its way into the square. And you know, I mean, they kill people in the square too, but. You know, and eventually they they get into the square and this is where you get like tank man and like the sort of the famous accounts of the massacre. But like, by that point it's basically over, right? Because one of the other things happened is that over the course of this protest, a lot of the students have left because they sort of gave up after. They're like factional conflict, like. Stopped, but so so most of the people like. Who are there are, are, are are on the outs, are like other workers on the outside of this trying to defend it, and were those people get killed and the army gets to build a square, it's the whole thing is already over. And you know the these protests get crushed and. You know, like before the last bullet has been fired, everyone everyone left standing is trying to create their own narratives. But what just happened? The most common one is that ******** is just like clash between democracy and authoritarianism, and like. OK, to to some extent that's not wrong. Although, I mean, you know, we've already mentioned that there are a lot of new authoritarian students there. But like, you know, OK, this is this is kind of a fair interpretation of what's going on. Like there's a lot of other pro democracy movements in this. Like in the region, most famously, there's Taiwan and South Korea. But the actual question of what's happening here? Is. Is, is is really a question of of what kind of democracy there's, you know, that that these people are fighting for. The students at Tiananmen, you know, to the extent that they're democratic principles, are sincere and not a cover for a sort of like deeply authoritarian version of liberalism that's, you know, demanded by like a sort of new class of intellectual services, market reform. So to the extent that they actually believe in this, right. They they believe in a very narrow conception of political democracy. And you know that this, this democracy is sort of political democracy operates its level of the state, right. It's based on free citizens were equal before the law participating in elections that chief representatives who like pass laws. And, you know, oversee and manage state bureaucracy. But you know this model of political democracy which is this is the one that we live under, right? It it, it relegates the workplace. To a a separate economic sphere into which democracy doesn't extend the capitalist firm or its state owned equivalent remains the absolute dictatorship of capitalists and managerial flunkies. And even even the sort of progressive wings of the Pro democracy movement in like Taiwan and South Korea, like, maintain this private, this private dictatorships. You know, if, if, if if you're a worker in one of these states, right, you get rights. You get, you know, you get the ability to form unions, you get access to the welfare state. You get. These sort of limit your protections from the worst, like physical and psychological abuses that your bosses can inflict. But no matter how progressive the pro democracy movements actually are, the legitimate the Jesus. Sorry. The legitimacy of the dictatorship of the bosses, which was not up for dispute and you know, to to these sort of protocol movements, right, like democracy means that democratic state and not a democratic workplace. And this is this is the huge divide. Between what's happening at Tiananmen and what's happening like everywhere else in the world. The the workers at Tiananmen are the only people left in this entire. Sort of like run of pro democracy movements that disagree they they are standing against. Not only that, like every they're standing not only against their own governments, against a lot of the the students who are, who are also like at these protests, they are standing against literally the entire tide of history itself. Bye bye, you know, by applying the principles of pro democracy, movements like their own concerns right, which is skyrocketing inflation and mounting debts like. Rapid corruption to government officials like skyrocketing and spiraling, and inequality and petty bureaucratic oppression. Beijing's working class had reinvented a old and now like largely forgotten tradition of democracy and the factory that I'm going to. I'm calling it Democratic worker self management, because there's no good name for it, and they're all kind of clunky. Fair. I mean, this is based on who these people were at the time. It makes sense that all of their names for things were pretty clunky. Yeah, well, The thing is they they they don't name like like this. And this is one of the things about, OK, one of the real problems with studying chairman, right is that like. OK, so we have really good accounts from the students, right, because some of the students flee, they're able to make it out. We have like Jack **** basically from the workers we have what what we do have is we have some of the, we have some of the documents they produced and we have some a lot of interviews that were done with people there. And they. I don't know that they have very, very idiosyncratic. Ways of expressing what they believe. And so, you know, you'll get things were like, OK, they're like, OK, wait, we we believe in the rule of law, right. And then the next sentence will be like, I we we we have calculated the exact amount of surplus value that has been distracted from us according to Marks and it's like, what? Because yeah, the thing that they're doing is like they're, they're, they're synchronizing this new, they're synchronizing sort of like a political tendency. That's trying to address. This sort of dual dictatorships are dealing with right like because they're dealing at the same time with like. This political dictatorship the party has, and also the fact that their bosses now like, completely control everything that they do. And because of this they. You know, they they they wind up being like the last. Or I guess technically second to last because Argentina happens so that that's sort of convoluted mess in itself, but they're they're in in the 20th century like they they are the last people who are fighting for democracy in the factory and. This, like to a large extent, is what channel is actually about. It's the culmination of a century and a half long war between the democratic wing of the classical workers group and like every single other ideology that exists. And these guys over over that century and a half long span, they're going to fight communists are gonna fight capitalistic going to fight liberals and fascists and monarchies and republics and social democracies and theocracies. And at Tiananmen they're going to lose one more time. And that defeat, the fact that they lose here, the fact that these people get slaughtered, the fact that. Like, they're crushed so effectively that no one even remembers what they were, don't even remember they exist or like much less like what they were fighting for. This defeat is the origin of the modern world. That one man rule in the factory, like the individual single boss who has total control and power over you is in and it's sort of 1000 forms is the author of the hell that is 21st century. And when we come back from this commercial break, we are going to look at the international part of the struggle that Tiananmen is sort of like the conclusion of. So here's some ads, maybe from Amazon. Here are the job working at their distribution center that seems to be paying gig, and we're back to I. Look at why you two also must live in the absolute one man dictatorship in the factory. So it's it's not, not, not, not not as much one man. It's the one algorithm you have to you have to listen to what your iPad tells you when you're walking through the Amazon distribution center. That's true, yeah. It is funny because it's like we they they've somehow made a worse version of it was like, OK sure have yeah. It's like it's yeah it's like, OK Now, now, now. You were ruled by a computer whose job it is to make one person an extremely large amount of money. It's even further like, depersonalized and further disjointed from actually being a human. Yeah, it's it's, I don't know there's, there's there's there's some metaphor here which if I wasn't like sick out of my mind. Lied about how, like power depersonalizes. It dehumanizes you until the point where you replace with the machine that you can make here, but I. I don't know how you want in one. In every two days, the rumor randomly starts spitting on me. So yeah, I can't. I can't do that. The lesson here, the lesson here is, is that. When you're thinking about factories and how bosses suck, and how it's not great to to work in a factory, just have a boss that tells you what to do. The lesson is that it can always get worse because it could always be a computer. Anyway, continue so OK, so to get a sense of like what this fight is. And like how how we got to Tiananmen, we need to go back to the revolutions of 1848, which is, at first glance, not like, not an incredibly obvious place to start. OK, if if if you want like a a really detailed like blow for blow account other revolutions of 1848, go listen to the revolutions podcast. It it's good. I am not going to do it here because Oh my God, there's so much stuff. But the very short version is that. So in 1848, across Europe, there's a bunch of revolutions that are collectively known, while sometimes known as like the springtime of the peoples. And this is this is the first, this is the first wave of revolutions where socialists are like a real thing. Frederick Angles like that. Angles like the Marks and angles. Angles is like on a barricade with a rifle fighting in Prussia, there's like. Yeah, I'm not gonna. Sadly, I can't get into August my wheelchair. But like, go, go, go, go Google August from village. She's she's wild there. There's a huge revolution in France where they like that they finally deposed the king and you know this, there's this question here. And as these revolutions look like they're winning, there's this question of how far democracy is going to go and what it's going to mean. India, you have a large thing. You have this. This is in, in a lot of ways very similar to what you're dealing with with in in in China and in 1989 inside of France, you have to split, right? You have to split between. You know, like the people who were like, who were like French radicals, but in the sense of like the original French Revolution. Who are, you know, OK, they, they, they want like, they, they they they want an elected democracy. They absolutely do not want to, like, deal with the fact that that that that the workplace is not a democracy. And then, you know, and you have you have a bunch of socialists and the Socialists are like, hey, can we do something about like property relations and like the fact that there's a bunch of poor people with no jobs? And, you know, and the Socialists get slaughtered, but, you know, they they don't die. I mean, OK, you just said that. Well, OK. So a lot of these people get horribly slaughtered, but a lot of them escape and like make it out. She lives on. Yeah. Well, the ideology lives on and a lot of the, well, I mean, it's interesting here, like a lot of the leaders like live on a lot of these people, like, for example, so a bunch of people flee to the US and they wind up being like the like a lot of the officer core of the Union army in in the Civil War is made-up by these, by these socialists who like had to flee after the revolutions failed and like Prussia and stuff. But yeah, so but many of them do in fact die. Yeah. It doesn't go great for them and you know and you, you, you get to see one of the other things that's going to happen a lot, which is that OK, so like the the the the, the, the sort of like the the, the, the the French like. Like the the French radicals who are like pro capitalism but also pro democracy, like ally with the conservative factions and then they also all get killed when Napoleon. Early in the third takes power, but man, you know, it's really, it's really, really hard to root for someone here and that. Because it's like this. This is really like, like the the the the revolution produces its own grave diggers. **** like, oh hey what? What did you expect was gonna happen when you allied with like, the landlords and bullion? Good thing this mistake will never be made again. Nope. Good thing we're not about democracy about this. Yeah, yeah. They know mind to the rest of this episode. Yeah. Anyway, continue. So, yeah, you have the split between people who want electoral democracy, but, you know, dictatorships in the workplace and these people who want, like democracy in the workplace. And this also prefigures the split inside of socialism itself. For, you know, for this isn't even I like in my script. I say like for, for, for the most radical factions of socialism, you know, like control over the means of production, which is like the thing that you want means that like production is controlled either by like free associations of workers, like. You know, direct democratic unions. This is later called syndicalism, or like workers councils. And that that's, you know, I say it's most recollection like that that's a very popular conception of like what this is going to be like if you're reading marks like marks is like, Oh yeah, free associations to workers. Sure. But you know, as as the sort of like 1840s roll into the 1860s and the 1870s, there's this faction of the movement that becomes just like. Obsessed with the bureaucratic technologies of the states. And you know like they they they they watch the state really get involved in the economy in a way that it it like kind of hasn't before. Then they they in over the course of sort of industrialization. They watch with like incredible envy as they see like these incredibly elaborate, like planning schemes. They see the the State Building roads and canals and railroads and that entire cities with like complex electrical grids and like gas lines and plumbing systems and especially trains, like specifically trains. This drives them all completely insane. And they become they they they begin to believe that like a single centralized planning body, like not a democratic association of workers, like a single centralized state planning body. Can like you know, bring about the long sought after like cooperative Commonwealth of Socialism. And all these people get, they get obsessed with like such planning, right. And this becomes, this starts to sort of like consume more and more of the left in in Germany, which is home to like the powerful German Social Democratic Party, which is like probably the most powerful Socialist Party in the world. At this point. The Socialists become divided into 2 camps. There's the revisionists led by Edward Bernstein, who like he like renounces Marxism and Revolution and like entirely in favor of. Forming capitalism in the state from like within. And then you have these Orthodox Marxists that are like led by Kulikowski, who's whole thing is that he hates Bernstein. And like the only thing that these two people that these two groups agree on is that I think the only thing they agree on is the bureaucratic state planning is the thing you're supposed to be fighting for and not like democratic workplaces. And this leads the SDP to like. They they they they do a lot of things that are like disastrous. One of the things that they wind up doing a lot is like actively working with the bosses to like destroy the like workplace autonomy for their own unions. So, like, there'll be things where it's like, like there's a famous examples like there's like, I think they're like, they're metal workers. I think they make knives or something. And they have a lot of control over the production process, right? They can control like how much stuff gets produced, the process, like how it works, like what they're actually doing. And the SDP is like, no, this is bad because it's inefficient. And so they like basically crushed their own union. And this this goes into really disastrous directions. But. Worse still, the the single person who becomes like the most obsessed with, like the potential of bureaucratic state planning is 1 very, very, very obscure guy named Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. Who I don't expect anyone to have heard of. Friend of the pod. It was like, yeah, friend of the pod. I just said, oh, that's funny. Yeah. So as David Graeber points out, Lennon's obsession with, like, the German Postal Service is such that, like, OK, so he he he writes a very famous book about, like, what a future socialist state is going to be called state and revolution. And like almost all of it is a lie. But he also says this in it. A witty German Social Democrat of the 1870s. Called the Postal Service an example of the socialist economic system, this is very true. At present the Postal Service is a business organized along the lines of a state capitalist monopoly, imperial. This whole thing about imperialism is making everything also this. But so. To organize the whole national economy on the lines of the Postal Service, so that the technicians form and bookkeepers, as well as all officials that receive no salaries higher than a workman's wage. All under the control and leadership of the armed proletariat. This is our immediate aim. And if you think about what this means for about 5 seconds, right, what he's saying is that socialism is the entire economy being planned by a bureaucratic state. And. You know this this like. This sets off this like massive series of confrontations with the part of the workers movement who you know, like want to control the work that they do. And, you know, like make and like, you know the people who like who think that, like the revolution means that they're actually going to be able to make decisions over their work and not, you know, just like work for like a slightly different set of bureaucrats and. This struggle between, you know, this the sort of like new socialist bureaucrats and like democracy in the workers movement. Is. You know, it's, it's it's an enormous part of the struggle that happens here and there's like another version of it happening between. The workers movement itself and the capitalist state like in in in the 1880s, the workers movements in like in Italy, in Germany and like. France is a lesser extent that they have. They they they they form these parties that are called like states within a state. And, you know, these things are these massive networks of these workers institutions. They have like free schools, they have workers associations, they have like friendly societies, they have libraries, they have theaters, they have like unions, they have co-ops, they have like neighborhood associations, they have tenant unions, have mutual aid societies. And, you know, and these things are all run democratically by, like by by the workers who formed the associations. And, you know, and like, the people who are doing this are like, you know, the, the, the hope is that, like, this is going to be the basis for the new social society, right? It's like, OK, we we can just come together and like, do this stuff and we could do it democratically and we could administer this stuff ourselves. And. The and these things are enormously popular. Umm and you know and and this like terrifies this, this sort of old ruling class and auto von Bismarck, who's the guy basically running the German state in this. Like. He he his solution to this is to create like bureaucratic state-run versions of like all of these things. So he he creates like state-run library state-run theaters like state one welfare services and he's using these as like a replacement to the sort of workers institutions. And he has this great line where he tells an American observer quote, my idea was to bribe the working classes or shall I say to win them over to regard the state as a social institution existing for their own sake and invested in the and interested in their welfare. And like, this works. This is this is an enormous success. This is one of the greatest propaganda cues ever. Because. Like it it it's it's so successful in convincing people that the thing that they're fighting for is like the state bureaucratic version of this thing and not the version where they do it themselves. That like when the Socialists like take power, they they confuse bismarcks like literally the welfare state bribe thing that he like made to buy off the movements, like they confuse that with socialism itself. And like to this day, everyone believes this. It's like. It's it's, I don't know, I I lose my mind constantly over this because all of these things that Bismarck developed, like specifically to destroy the socialist movement, everyone was like, Oh my God, this is socialism. It's like, no, no, please stop. And you know and this is really effective particularly on the leadership of the movement but like the actual like people in these parties like in these movements don't forget it. And and as as the sort of like 20th century Dresser closed and you get like the sorry as the 19th century draws to a close and you get like the 20th century. The workers who are like doing the uprisings. Are are not sort of like like that? You know, the the workers were doing the uprisings haven't like drinking the coolaid and the thing that they do immediately when they start doing uprisings is they start building these democratic institutions, particularly workers councils. The most famous of these are like other workers councils that form sort of spontaneously in the Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917. These are like. This is actually like, this is what? Like these. They're called Soviets because Soviets just like the word for counsel in Russian, and these things are originally these like. Ad hoc strike committees, and they eventually become these like, formalized, like, like elected bodies, representatives from like the various factories who are like coordinating a strike and OK, in 1905, they lose and they all die. But in 1917, they they they they do this again, and they formed the Soviets again. And this time. The Council start to take like a larger role in coordinating production directly and you know, coordinating between different like factories and industries and they turn into this sort of like counter power thing to the new government. And this kicks off this open period of warfare that stretches like literally from Italy to Argentina between. The the different socialist factions who like people, like the different factions of this movement who want democracy and the factory and this like a lot newly formed like anti democratic alliance of like Social Democrats, Bolsheviks and capitalists. Who like, you know are like, OK, well, some of them are in favor of like you can have, OK, there's a whole range of this thing, right like. The thing that unites all of these movements, Social Democrats, the Bolsheviks, the capitalist and later the fascists, is that they like emphatically like do not want democracy in the factory and they're willing to put aside their differences to make sure it doesn't happen. But you know, there's still, there's still a huge fight that happens between between 1917, nineteen 20, you get workers councils in, you get workers councils in Germany, Poland, Austria, Ukraine, Ireland and Ireland. There's there's these like 2 giant revolts by syndicalist workers unions in Brazil and Argentina. And these all get crushed in Italy. Italy has like one of the most intense conflicts between these like. A lot of syndicalist in the Italian state and they they they they have this, this really famous like set of factory occupations where instead of like like before this people would go on strike, right? You go on strike and you leave your factory. And in in Italy, they were like, OK, what if we just stayed in the factory and took it over so that they couldn't like just like restart production with scabs and we now control the factory? And there's this huge wave of it in in Italy in in the late 19. Acting like teens, early 1920s. And. You know it, it looks like for a little, for like a bit like it really looks like they're going to be down the government. But the the factory occupations get crushed. But they don't get crushed by the government. They get crushed by the Italian Socialist Party and like their Union General Confederation of Labour. And like, this is how fascism wins in Italy. Like, to a large extent, it's that like when, like, you know, and this happens in Germany too, it's like when. When when the sort of the Social Democrats and the capitalists are faced with this possibility that, like, workers could take over the factories, the Social Democrats turn on them and just kill them all. And the problem with that is that, like, OK, well, who do you do the killing with? The answer is the fascists. And then the Social Democrats, like themselves, all get exterminated by the fascist. It's it's this, like. You know it is, it is a is a is a terrible cycle that we're going to see like. Literally. Over and over and over again. Yeah, it it it's bad. That sounds not great. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Do you do you know who else will slaughter your your factory council? Oh no. Oh, I actually know this one. Alright, Garrison, go. We have a few options here. There is our our good friends at the Washington State Patrol. If you're trying to set up a highway business next to the highway and run it via workers, cancel State Patrol. Come up. Be like not on this highway if you're done. Probably also like Amazon or something. Who knows, yeah? And we're back to see. You know, OK, OK. We we we are back to see like the worst defeats that they're going to have that like the people who want like. A factory council are going to have this. Which for once actually has nothing to do with Amazon or the capitalist whatsoever. Which is that, like, the worst balling they're going to get is from Lenin and the Bolsheviks. Who? I I don't know how do people sort of like know the history of the Russian Revolution, but like the factory councils are the people who like basically put the Bolsheviks in power in the first place? Like, to a large extent, like, they're, they're, they're the people who, like, were the shock troops of this. And like literally, the moment Lennon takes power, she starts undermining the Soviets. He he publishes this thing. Like, like, like three or four days after the October Revolution, he he publishes this thing called the draft decree on Workers Control, which is like. You know, he he he basically is like he's he's trying to like shift power from these councils to the Bolshevik party in the state. And this doesn't really work initially because these groups are like pretty powerful. But in it, you know, he he he publicly lenins like, no we draw, we drive our power from the Soviets like we're we're we're the people who support that, these councils. But then like London, he's chipping away from them. And then in 1918 he writes this thing, he writes this, this, this paragraph from the immediate task the Soviet government, which is like one of the wildest things I've ever read in my life. Which which is saying a lot. It's it's it's wild. It is cheese. OK, unquestioning submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for the success of Labor processes that are based on large scale machine industry today. The revolution demands in the interests of socialism, but the masses unquestioningly obey the single will of the leaders of the labor process. Which is like what? What, what? How, how would you explain to our good viewers why that is so bonkers? Like, OK, some of them might just hear that and be like, oh, leftist words. Cool. Moving on. Even just the 1st 2 words, unquestioning submission makes me like that, like a questioning submission. The whole thing about, like, the masses must unquestionably obey the will of the single leader. Like what this is like, like what is happening? This is, you know, and the thing that's happening here is that Lenin, Lenin is being. Really candid about what it means for there to be a boss. Like what it means for there to be someone who's position is above you, that can order you to do literally whatever they want. And if you don't obey them, like bad things happen to you, starve or get shot. Yeah, he he's he's incredibly candid about this. Like this, this, this is what like having a boss means. It means, like, questioning exhibition to the single will of a leader, which is like, this is how I talk about Sophie all the time. Yeah. Well, shaking her head, I'm with you. Sophie can't really scare you just said that. Yeah. You're welcome. Whatever you say, Sophie. Thanks, care. God, I'm thinking about this. There's this line. It's sort of substantially related to the story I read this thing once about. So the workers who took over the Sorbonne, I think it was the students served a bunch of students like take over this like like the like the like the Big Academy in in Paris in 1968 and they send this like I think it's a telegram to like the Chinese embassy and like the end of it is. Well, I think if I remembering the exact words correctly, it's the the the revolution will not be complete until the. Solution will not be complete until the last capitalist is hung with the entrails of the last bureaucrat. Incredibly hot, yeah. 68 was wild. That's that's the thing this brought to mind for some reason. But. You know, I mean, going back to sort of Lenin is like unquestioning, like submission to think, well, like he, he's more candid about what like one man rule in the factory or like having a boss you have to obey, like means. But the system is describing, like, isn't different than any other political system. Like Bolshevik rule in the factory, like isn't really different than capitalist, Social Democratic or fascist rule. And you know, the movement for democracy in the factory. As as you know as as as these people are crushed, especially in cross section 21 like. Do it for democracy in the factory is faced by 4 implacable enemies who are willing to put aside all of their ideological differences to ensure that, like no one ever like gets to control their workplace. And, you know, and as as the 20s blood into the early 1930s, the movement seemed to have disappeared. But they didn't. They absolutely didn't. Even though, even though they got murdered by the fascists, the Communists, Social Democrats and the capitalists, they're going to be back next episode to do like 12 more revolutions. And yeah, that, that, that, that that that that that come, come, come back tomorrow for us, talking about like why these revolutions happens, what the ruling class had to stop them and then. Yeah, the, the lead up to Tiananmen Square to see the sort of like the final stand of the Chinese working class and, yeah, like, get to what Tiananmen actually was. Little cliffhanger. Football is back, and bet MGM is inviting new customers to join the huddle and enjoy the action like never before. Sign up today using bonus code champion and your first wager is risk free up to $1000. You'll also have instant access to a variety of parlay selection features, player props, and boosted odd specials. Just download the bet MGM app today or go to bed. Mgm.com and enter a bonus code champion and place your first wager risk free up to $1000. The bet MGM app is the perfect way to experience the excitement of wagering on live sports now in more markets than ever. Visitbetmgm.com for terms and conditions must be 21 years of age or older to wager Virginia only new customer offer. All promotions are subject to qualification and eligibility requirements. Rewards issued as non withdrawable free bets or site credit free bets expire 7 days from issuance. Please gamble responsibly. Gambling problem call 1888. 532-3500. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on tick tock. You maybe even heard the rumors, your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade, we here at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions, sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you. For the first time ever in a book format, you can preorder stuff they don't want you to know. Now it's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. Do you love movies? Or maybe just in need of some recommendations of what new movies to watch next time you sit down in front of the TV? Well, I have the podcast for you. Hey, this is Mike D from movie Mikes movie podcast. Your go to source for all things movies and no matter the genre of what you're into, whether it be comedies, romance, action, sci-fi, horror, superhero movies, I cover it all. I'm no critic, I'm just a guy who loves movies. Each episode explores a different movie topic. Plus, spoiler free reviews on the latest new movies in theaters and on streaming. And yes, they're always spoiler free so you don't have to worry about anything getting ruined for you. Plus interviews with actors, directors, and writers covering the behind the scenes of your favorite movies. I also keep you in the know with all the latest movie news and movie trailers. Listen to new episodes of movie Mikes Movie podcast Every Monday on the Nashville podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Podcasts, yeah, that that counts as an intro of look. Yes, we've now started the podcast. The podcast that we are starting is it could happen to hear. And I it's it's it's me, Christopher Wong, I'm, I'm, I'm doing, I'm doing the host thing and I have a bunch of other people with me who do a lot of things. I have Garrison. Yes, I have, Shereen. Yes. And I have Sophie, our lovely boss Sophie Lichterman, all praise on high. Bow down your words, not mine. So weird, I did not enjoy that at all. Chris, my take over. So, so Sophie unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately lacks the sheer ruthlessness to crush the workers movement. Well, we will see. Yeah, that remains to be determined. So oh. I don't buy it. So, Sophie, Sophie is very sad. I'm sorry, Sophie. So when we last left off Lennon, Lennon has like in theory, crushed last sort of remaining factions of like the workers who want democracy in the factories, but unfortunately for the Leninist like literally no matter how, no matter how many workers they kill and they are going to kill enormous numbers of workers, the demand for democracy in the factory, like, just refuses to die for over 100 years. The development of this sort of mass factory system and logistical infrastructure that you need to support it, maybe most importantly, coal mines and railroads that are used to transport stuff generate. This incredibly militant working class that sees, you know, democratic control over the workplaces, like the fundamental aspect of its liberation. Ideologically, this is, you know, this is. This is manifested in like a series of interlocking beliefs about like, the nature of the working class and like what class society is, all of which are sort of necessary components of this, like. It becomes this like incredibly like this, like instinctive formation of workers councils at the moment, like an uprising happens and this is something that's very interesting about 20th century. Is that like? Yeah. Like when whenever there's like a crisis someone someone like like everyone in their factory is like, OK, we're we're we've taken control of the factory now. Like we we we're forming a Council, we're forming a giant assembly. And like we don't do this anymore. We're going to come back to like, why we don't do this anymore, but like this isn't happened. Like the last time it happened was like in Argentina in 2001, and I don't even know if Garrison Garrison might have been alive for that. Thanks. But like like, yeah, like it's. I will say the other time it does happen is when after a after a recording session, when our boss Sophie leaves me, me and Chris will stay on the line to talk usually about Star Wars. And that, in a way, kind of is a workers council just for the factory of podcasting. Yeah, yeah, talk about Star Wars in front of me. I feel so bad for Sophie. Next, next, next time we will. This little puppy face. That's OK. I think, Shereen, your petite bourgeois tactics won't work on me. Oh God, we all, all the people on the subreddit who think that we hate Sophie, are going to just have a field day with this episode. That is my favorite recurring conspiracy theory. Bet that's a real conspiracy. Oh man. Oh man. Well, I'm allowed to cut you up on to do you don't. You do not. You do not because it's not true. Run away. So meanwhile, meanwhile, so it it in the period when people actually like did this seriously. You know, there there's a lot of sort of ideological things that come together to to make it so that when people like. You know, like when when bread prices increased too much. This is what people do. And. A lot of this has to do with. The physical experience of what being a worker is in. Like, you know, the 1920s, like you have these like these, these, these, these incredibly rapid, like technological expansions and you know, the people who are who are doing this stuff like see themselves as the creators and do world, right? Like, and this is like literally this happened like these are the people who are literally like they are building the cities, right? Like all, all of the sort of the infrastructure of the modern world is physically being created by them. And this creates this, you know? Like if you were the person who is like, who has transformed, like this fishing village into this giant industrial city, right? Umm. You know, you, you you see yourselves as as the creator, like, literally, physically the creator of this new world that's being developed. And then the second belief that that it produces, that drives this movement is that the people who produce this world should be its inheritors. And so and this, this, this, this sort of this is what drives the workers movement in this. Which is that like, OK, so if if if if you if you are literally physically creating the new world and you think that because you have created it, it should be yours, the thing that you do because it's not yours. Right. Like you don't like, yeah, you know, like the the people who build cities are not the people who own the cities. And, you know, if you see this. Yeah, like, yeah, OK. Like in the city is actually owned by like, 3 real estate speculators and, like, a bunch of cops. And a more applicable examples like the people who build the Cup podcast does not own the podcast. Yeah no we don't know the podcast. Like we we are exactly applicable result that you know that kind of, you know, everyone understands that example. Yeah everyone. I actually don't think that people understand that we don't own the podcast. It's actually unclear to me. I people, people have weird things about how podcasting works. But yeah, we we don't own the podcast. We just create it. And we do all the work. And then Sophie sits in her leather chair, looking down at all of the leather chair. She's over. I told my podcast creations I have created and then all of us manually podcast so bad. How could you think I could sit here on an 85 degree day in a leather chair? If you're going to insult me, at least get your facts right. That's my word. Chair continue, Chris. OK, so for for for the people who are like actually watching their boss, like sitting around smoking a giant cigar in a factory while they ate pounds like hammers or like work at a hospital and get a watch like most of these just started. Massive cigar and a comically large Robert. To give to prop but. Because for the record, whenever I do hang out with my other boss, Robert, he often does sit in some chair smoking a cigar. And I do think it is, in fact, leather. OK, so we're describing Robert before he asked me to slave away in my laptop writing scripts and yeah, just sits in actually working the podcast mines. Yeah, it's it's it. It is it is really hard out there. Yeah. And you continue so, OK, so like the the belief that you produced the world and that if you produce you should own it is like this. This is not unique to the part of the workers movement that like, you know, thinks that also you should like have a democracy and the factory. And like you should have the autonomy to decide how you do your work and what needs to be done that those beliefs like broadly comprise the ideology of like the entire work improvement and and by, you know, by the 20th century, the workers movement is really, really broad, right. I mean it stretches from sort of like. Really mild Social Democratic trade unionists to like the intellectual heads of these, like Leninist vanguard parties. But what makes the democratic wing unique is that their concern is the fundamental alienation of factory life. And and this, this, I mean originally like it is very much factory life. But like this, this gets expanded out as this goes on into sort of the the. Like the fundamental alienation of Labor itself, which is just this condition of being reduced to an object by bosses who use you as a tool to do something. And, you know, and this is, this is a concern for everyone in some sense. But but for the Leninist and Social Democrats, alienation is just like a product of ownership or distribution. Right. So, you know, if, if, if, if that's what you believe. The way you defeat alienation is through the working class of productive capacity. Not in, not in sort of like any kind of like innate human like humanity or creativity. Like all you have to do is like, well, OK, you you flip a switch, right? And the factory is now owned by the state instead of being owned by like. JPMorgan or something and like now you're alienation is gone. Uh-huh. That's how it works. Yeah. Or and your social democracy, it's like, well, OK, so you, you, you, you, you flip a switch and taxes get higher. And now you have a Union, but you're still working for gold, you're still working for the Goldman Sachs. But you know for, for, for, for, for the wing of the workers movements that. You know, actually cares about democracy. This doesn't solve anything, right? Like as as long as the the fundamental relation. Of being the like, of being an object, right, as long as like you, fundamentally the worker are, are not, are not a human being who has agency and control and autonomy over their life, as long as you're just an object. That you know like you're you're you like you. You you're a living human tool. That the one man ruler of the factory can, like, you know, can can wield around and do whatever they want as long as that persists changes in ownership structure and you like health benefits missed the entire point. And this kind of the degradation that comes from just being a tool can only be solved by returning agency and autonomy to the working class. And that means like actually giving the class control over the production process. And, you know, in in in in 1936, in Spain, workers are like, **** this and decide to take the entire thing into their own hands. And they do this by just seizing their workplaces in mass. And this becomes known as the Spanish Revolution, and it is one of the most extensive sort of experiments and like. Workers, Democratic Self management or like, whatever, whatever you want to call people making their own decisions in the workplace like that has ever happened. Like, especially in the modern era, like everything from like Public Utilities to like bakeries to hospitals to shoe factories, like falls under the direct control of these. Like democratic unions. And once their bosses have been like, you know, chased from the premises and like flee and terror. These workers set about like transforming the entirety of Spanish society along democratic lines, like they pooled their resources together collectively and that they allocate the democratically for the benefit of like society as a whole. And for a brief moment this works. They have this incredible like this triumphant experiment. Democratic Self management and output increases dramatically and social services are expanded and like in in the span of two years in the middle of a civil war like the workers of Spain are able to create a universal healthcare system that expands carriage like. Like rural areas of Spain where like you couldn't get it before but you know the problem is once again is that this is happening to civil war and and a lot like you know using sort of like nominally anti fascism like as as they're sort of like. You know, the, the, the. They're using the threat of the Nitro post fascism as a sort of front, like a a French for what they're actually doing. You get this alliance of liberals, liberal socialists and Stalinists who just like brutally stamp out any attempt to democratic self management. And like you have like Soviet cadres and like NKVD, like Soviet secret police guys, like literally leading Arby's into into these cities and like like like killing the workers and then physically like taking control of these factories that people had seized and giving them back to the bosses. Which is, you know, this is this is great. This is great communist stuff. And. Yeah, the, you know, and this, this, this ends exactly how you would expect it to end with. Oh yeah, like this. The Stalinists get everything they watched. They murder all of the people who want, like, a factory council, and then they all get killed by Franco. But, you know, undeterred by sort of the casualty tolls of these like massacres by people who want bosses. This just keeps happening. And, you know, by the time you get to the the 5019, fifties, 1960s, like, all this stuff is back. Like there there's there's factory councils getting hungry. You get them in. Italy and France and Likova in 1968, there's like like there, there, there there's councils being like, there's communists being formed in like Vietnam. There's like there's, we've talked about the cordones in in in Chile on the show before, like these things are happening everywhere. And I think Hungary in particular is a really interesting one because. So there's a revolution in in Hungary against sort of the Soviets in 1956. That's. It gets a lot of the same liberal mythologizing that you get with siamin, but like. Kind of more egregious here. So I don't know. I think like I I got taught this revolution in in school. This is like one of the few ones that we actually get and they taught it as this. Like, this is like the Hungarian revolution was just like kind of nationalist, like Liberal Democratic revolution for people who wanted like democracy and freedom and like free markets and then like. You know, if if if you go read about what the people were, but people actually doing the revolution, we're saying you get quotes like this. This is a direct quote from a member of one of the Hungarian Workers councils, the time when the bosses decided our fate is over and it's like. Huh? Huh? These these guys these guys do not seem like. I don't know. These guys don't seem like Liberal Democrats. So something weird is happening here, something that's actually happening. Is it like? Hungarian workers like seize control of their factories and like their workplaces, and they form workers councils, the government, and then the Russian slaughter them all. But, you know, like, this is not a Liberal Democratic revolution at all. This this is a revolt against dictatorship in the workplace. And there's an identical revolts break out across both the capitalist world and the communist world, and in the newly decolonized society. Start seeing them too. And, you know, and to the sort of like dismay. Of both the Communists and the capitalists, who are both like, Oh my God, why is everyone keeping workers councils? This solution to alienation, like, it's not like an ideological thing, right? Like it's it's not that there's like a group of people who are like, secretly infiltrating these countries and being like, OK, uniform workers councils. This, this is this stuff is happening in places where there's just like, none of that. So like one of the sort of like. Movements that that does stuff like this is, is the revolution in Algeria, you know? And they're like, they're like, Algeria, like does have a pretty high level of, of political education, but the political education they're getting is from like, it's from the National Liberation Front, which is like, insofar as it's any one thing, it's like it's a nationalist, vanguardist movement, which is, you know, they're the people who like, fight the French colonizers and beat them. And their ideology, like, insofar as you can describe one ideology like the thing that they want is like the state having this decisive. Full national development. But, you know, immediately upon taking power, often benbella, who's Algeria's first president, like, discovers that, you know, he he's not actually going to be the one like making the decision about what the country's economic structure is going to be because he takes power and a whole bunch of like a French people who live in Nigeria flee. And. Basically what happens immediately after is that all of, like all of these, this property that had been originally, like held by by by French, sort of like colonists. Like it it it it gets immediately seized by the Algerian working class and, you know, they build their own workers councils. And you know, my bill is like, OK, I, I I guess, I guess we have like workers councils now like I I guess, I guess we have sort of like autonomous democratic production and. Benbella is like kind of trying to undermine them. But he doesn't really get a chance to, because once again, there's a military coup and benbella. Like? He, I think he he escapes and doesn't die, but like the fact that the Council's sort of get dismantled again, but like the number of times this has happened is getting just like completely out of hand. And it's like, yeah, OK, the, the, the. It's like, yeah, OK, so every time this happens, they murder everyone. But like, you know, the revolutions keep happening and they keep happening and they keep happening. And you know, even even as late as like the late 70s, like it's not clear that that that like, it's it's not clear that the people who want one man rule of factor are going to win like. There's this moment in Italy, 1977 where it's like this, like giant student worker coalition almost takes power like in Spain, even after like 50 years of of like Franco. And like the the fascist dictatorship, like the the CNT, which is the anarchist union that had done the revolution, like reappears in the 70s again, even though everyone thought it was gone. And like, you know, this is a real, this is a real source of strife for. It's especially the sort of capitalist managerial elite who are. You know they. This stuff keeps happening. It's like, OK, like it. It is an unacceptable risk that one of the one day one of these groups is going to win. And so they start looking for a way to like dismantle this sort of like systemic things that like create that caused people to do this. But, you know, but there's but trying to do it in a way that doesn't involve them giving up their power. So yeah, as Vicky Osterwald points out, the the sort of like this, like instinctive embrace of like democracy in the factory, like as a political program, is only possible. As long as factories, as long as like the factory functions supportive and counter her. I think it was her term for when she calls it a darker gora. Which is like, so Gore is like like the the sort of like the Greek marketplace in the center of town. Everyone goes there and you like talk about things, right. And the factory serves as this kind of like it's sort of like dark version of it where like. On the one hand, you know, it facilitates these interactions that allow people to sort of like identify with each other and like. You know, create collective meeting by, like, interacting with each other, but on the other hand, it exists to exploit you and it's like terrible and you're just getting you're getting physically and socially destroyed like every moment you're in. But you know it. It's it still is a place where you can like, assemble an identity as, like, like you and a bunch of people around you can go like, hey, like, we are workers, right? Like we we are the working class and this this is like a shared political identity that you have that allows you to do things. And so the the thrust of sort of the attack against this takes the form of this attack on like the shop floor is like a site of like formation of identities that can allow you to like mobilize stuff. And so this takes like a number of forms. Most famously, there's there's deindustrialization and this sort of like spatial relocation of factories. So, like, part of what's going on, right, is that you have a, you have a bunch of people who work in a factory, and then they live like, around, like, right around the factories, right? They work in a coal mine. They've lives in a town around the coal mine. And this means that everyone sees each other constantly. And they're like, constantly, like, running into each other and, like, physically talking to each other. And, you know, this is a really good way to create radical politics. So what? What happens? Is you these factories get sent out to the suburbs. And. This allows you to create places where you know workers are isolated from each other and you know the other thing you can do is you turn workers into homeowners. And you sort of like buy them off with this combination of like cheap credit and this promise that like their houses would not be a financial asset. And so as the sort of 80s rules on the the, the sort of the, the, the, the like the heralded democratization of finance replaces democratization in the factory as sort of the capitalist class like the other thing they do this like really insidious is they they, they, they they tied like the remaining union pensions into the stock market. This stuff like you see today with like 401K and it means that like. If if you want to like have a retirement, you are like physically, literally invested in the stock market. Which ties, you know, which ties everyone sort of like into the system and corporations start to turn workplaces into these like enormous propaganda apparatuses you get like Walmart in particular has these like these bass ideological programming things that they run that are designed to sort of like. Get you to identify with, like, the corporation itself and not with like the other people you're, you know, like the other people you're with and the class as a whole and you know and like the other thing they're able to do is. The fact that capital is mobile and workers like aren't allows, you know, combined with like logistics advances. And it means that, like if workers ever start getting an upper hand somewhere, capitalists can just leave. And the process that you see is that as this sort of the total number of people working in the like in industrial work keeps decreasing right as percentage of the population it keeps decreasing? And as this happens, capitalists are just like, OK, screw it, we're going to pick up our tools and leave. And this spits out like enormous populations who are just like kicked out of the traditional workforce entirely and these developments. This is what actually like eventually destroys. The classical workers movement is the ability to leave, and the sort of destruction of the factory is like a site of stuff. But in order for this to work, the one thing they need is a place to move to, right? They need somewhere with this large exploitable labor supply that is been like crushed enough that it won't revolt against them. And the capitalist class finds that in our products and services. And we're back, we're back and we're back to China. And OK, so I've been talking about the the way this sort of like this, this whole system, like this whole factory system, mass production, stuff like develops. But China's weird because this is the one place where the factory system works like really differently than everywhere else. Umm. And there's a lot of reasons for this, one of which is that like. So changes like state owned firms, it's like almost impossible for them to fire someone because, I mean there's a lot of reasons for this. One of them is that like people's entire sort of social sphere is built around their work unit and they're work unit is like it's the company you work for and there's this whole sort of like legal apparatus built around it and it like. Yeah. And like this, like unit gives you everything from like your retirement to like it like feeds you like. There's often like entertainment stuff like tied into it, like you get health care, you get like childcare from it. And the CP also gets rid of the piece rate system, which is this like, this is this thing that, like, I mean it still does a lot of capitalist place to work with this like, OK, so piece rate system is you pay people for like every unit something they produce. So like you get paid by like. I don't know. Like how many, like how many pounds of like cherries you can pick? And so the USSR brings this back, because the USSR and the US are really not that different. But China is like, Nah, this, like sucks. This is capitalism. And you know, OK, like I'm gonna say the fact Chinese factory system is great, but like. Because they don't have the piece rate system is because they can't fire people. Uh, you get this very you get this weird thing where it's like the people who run the factories like, don't have very good ways to force people to work. And because of this they like, they sort of like have to allow this like degree of participation in the worker process in like in the labor process that you don't really see most other places. And the other thing they have that I luckily Garrison and I also have this is we have the ability to criticize our bosses. Although we we have more of this. Yeah one one day go ahead. I'd I'd 111. OK we we've got it we don't we don't have our big character poster yet but like one day Garrison and I are going to show up to the office with like giant big character posters with your faces on it that like have specifically Roberts are going to have a list of crimes on it would be great. My favorite part is like big labor protests is when they make those giant like puppets. Yeah. If we just make a giant stick puppet version of Robert and Sophie that we just played around the office, now that was long as mines bigger than Roberts, that's fine, we can do that. Just great. Full support. So we get to do this in China. It's it's weird like you have the ability to do this, but like. It's like run through the party. And so if someone gets unpopular enough, like the party will like, start a campaign about how bad like that one boss is. And then you could show up to like the meeting and go like, hey, I hate my boss, this guy sucks, but they just replace him with like another boss, right? So it's it's not like it's not actually a democratic system really, but the way that it works ensures that, like, the people who are managers are like pretty popular, at least to some extent, like are popular and people don't, like really hate them. And this means that, you know, because there's all of this stuff that makes the Chinese factories so different from like, the other systems. And also because of like structural stuff in Maoism that I I mean, I could talk about that, but I yeah, I don't like talking about Maoism. But basically the the product of this is that, like you have in China during this. A lot of demands for democracy, but they're really, they're not, they're not tied to the workplace at all. They're, they're, they're mostly like political demands for like, democracy in the party or stuff like that. And that means, like, you know, at least in the cities. This system like kind of works okayish until the Cultural Revolution. Where everything falls apart and this means that it is at long last time for me to do the Cultural Revolution rant. Which is something I have been planning for like. You've been waiting for this? Yeah, I'm very excited about this. I've been waiting for an excuse and I finally have one. OK, so the Cultural Revolution rant is that everyone gets the Cultural Revolution completely wrong. Like everyone's like every like. It's like it's one of the rare events where like it's misinterpreted in like exactly the same way by both the people who support it and the people who oppose it. And OK, the first thing to understand about this right is like, OK, so the the. The initial, the very, very beginning of the Cultural Revolution, like it's basically a bunch of like teenagers, kind of like, it's like middle schoolers essentially. And they're attacking. These they're tracking like other kids at their school. And these kids are kids who have what's called a black blood background, like black blood. Which means that, like they're they're the children of people who were from like quote UN quote bad class backgrounds. And this is really weird for a number of reasons. One, because you have you you have a sort of like a pseudo class system. Based on like who your parents were, right? You have people who have red blood, who had like good class backgrounds. Like your parents are workers or your parents work with the party or something. And then you have people who are from like bad class backgrounds, quote UN quote, who like are persecuted and like, OK, like I I don't really care that much if you're like persecuting like a Shanghai oligarch who like collaborated with the French and Japanese imperialists or whatever, but like. A. This extends to like the children of these people, and a lot of the children these people like weren't even alive when their parents were like. You know, like doing stuff that was bad. And the other thing is that, like, the term bad class background, this is really loose. Like, I I know people whose families were like, declared, like, black class backgrounds who have black blood and like, you know, they weren't allowed to hold any government position. And the reason that this happened to them was that her dad had made bird feeders before the revolution. And they considered that like Petit bourgeois. And it's like, this is like, this is like like what? Like what? What are you doing? Like you, you, you you reproduced like you've turned class into like a pseudo race thing that's like her. Like you like inherit from your parents, even though like their parents don't own property anymore because you're social. It's it's really bizarre. And and and what's what's happening here is. The kids from the red class backgrounds are, you know, they're, they're the kids are the new of the new Chinese elite. And they're just like picking on, attacking the kids who are like now this, this sort of like, like. My minority class and. So what did some mounts do is the beginning of this is a bunch of privileged rich kids who are like. Attacking the bunch of kids who are being persecuted for stuff. Like not their fault at all. And you know part and the other the other part of this like this is the part that people think get is like Mao is trying to like play power games inside the party, blah blah blah blah. But you know, things get more and more chaotic and you get you get circuiting as attacks on like CP bureaucrats and cadres and stuff. Because Mao was trying to like my was trying to solidify his place in the party and he said blah blah blah, this other stuff is happening but then it gets really interesting. So, so this starts in 1966, right? And at the very beginning of 1967, there's something called the January storm, which is where a bunch of rebel workers just seize control of Shanghai and, like, they run the party out, they run the they run. I think they run the army out, too. And you know, and now like they they they control the city of Shanghai. And this is like an oh **** moment from Mao because. You know, now he has to, like deal with this city that has been taking over by its own working class. And and I found this, this incredible line from Joe and Lai, who's having a meeting with Mao and trying to figure out what to do about the fact that like this, this, this, like that Shanghai has been seized by by these workers. And I'm going to read this. When asked whether the new leadership should be elected from the bottom up, Joe and Lai replied bluntly that quote. Anarchism is bound to develop if we immediately implement direct elections of the Paris Commune type. And I think this is like, this is really incredible, like, like thing you can find, right? Because it's like, OK, well, there, there, there. There's two things that can happen here. One is either like, OK, you, you, you, you give these people democracy and the ability to vote, right. And Joe and I and Matt look at this and like, that would be anarchist if we can't do that. And the second thing is you don't do that and you repress them and they, they take the second line and, you know, OK, like it takes them a bit to get this ramped up, right? It takes them a bit to get this sort of kind of revolution thing. They're going to like stop all of this rebel stuff that they've started to to. Together it takes about a year, but by 1968? The students and the workers who had like, you know, done, done this sort of uprising stuff or getting slaughtered like just just mastery, like killed on an unimaginable scale. And this is this is where everyone gets the Cultural Revolution completely wrong because everyone, the entire memory of the Cultural Revolution is from basically the first two years of it, right? Which is like all the stuff about like, like, you know, like professors being marched out onto the street and dunce caps and like students, like humiliating their professors and like, like party officials being like marched around with like. Records on them and like, people like that's and like the chaos, revolution, like, that's that stuff, remember? That's the first two years of this. There's still like, I mean you, you can like there, there's there's the short, the short, the quote UN quote, short culture revolution, which is like the the high point of the activity goes from 1966 to 19, nineteen 69 and then there's like a longer one that goes to like the death of Mao depending on how you want to count. But almost all of the actual violence in this. Happens in this in the third phase, which is the so the first phase of the initial uprising. Then the rebel groups are fighting each other. But then phase three is when the state like cracks down on like start starts, like starts, trying to crush this like rebel student factions. And I'm going to read from Walder, who did a so this guy named Walder, who who went to he did a bunch of work in the Chinese archives. She, like, went and like, found the death tolls. And I'm, I'm going to read like he he he like he he'll see a bunch of archives. He goes to a bunch of state archives and he like, like, tracks down the death certificates and like, tracks down like who died where and this this is what he wrote about it. More than 3/4 of all documented deaths in local animals are due to the actions of authorities in this third phase, and then more than 90% of those persecuted for alleged political crimes. So what are you saying here is that 75% of all of the deaths in the entire cultural revolution weren't done by, like the revolution parts, they were done by the state murdering the workers faction, the rebel factions? And not only that, 90% of the of the actual political persecution was done by the state and not by the rebels. And when, when, when, when you actually look at what this means, like, this means everything, everything anyone ever talks about. The culture revolution is completely wrong. It wasn't that like the thing that happened. The culture revolution wasn't that sort of student radicalism got out of control and they started killing everyone. It produces all this violence. The thing that actually happens is that there's a student like uprising, right? But what happens is that the, the, the sort of conservative and state factions just slaughter them. And I what Walter estimated the total number of people dead, it's somewhere between 1.1 and 1.6 million people. And again, like 75%, I think it's actually slightly higher than that. Like percent of the people who were killed in this are killed by the state. And you know, this, this has an enormous effect on, I mean, just everything that happens in China in Chinese society from then on, because on the one hand. The popular memory of the Cultural Revolution persists as this thing that was like, this is what happens if you like, if if people outside the party and like students and radicals like start like making trouble, is that you get all these people dead. But then you know you, you have the people inside the state who like know how many people they had to kill in order to hold on to power, right? They they kill. They kill probably more people than like the, you know, there's a very famous massacre of like communist or like suspected Communist Indonesia that doesn't get called a genocide because it was technically on political lines but like was one of the worst anti communist massacres in history and they killed people from that in during this. And that like. That level of violence and the fact that the people running the state understand what they had to do, it means you you get you get an elite that's incredibly paranoid about, like, anything. That like smells like organizing happen outside the party. And the other thing happens is that like. The the most radical students and workers of this. Just get that they're all dead, right? They killed, they killed like they they they, they they killed like a million people. The, you know, for, for, for, for for every one person who got killed, there's about 19 people who were like persecuted in a lot of way. And that's like a lot of people are tortured. A lot of these people are like sent to prisons. They're like. Like, really horrible stuff happens to people, and this process keeps going like through through the seven. Like there's a huge spike in, like, state killings 1970 and but by by the end of the 70s, like anything that's sort of like could have cohered. Into into like a movement that like wants democracy in the workplace, for example. It's just gone because all of all of the radicals like. And and anyone anyone who like wanted. Anyone who wanted democracy in factory, any of the people who were like even sort of like just really sort of rebellious, like these people have been killed. And the consequence of this is that throughout through the 80s you get this politics that's driven by this like sort of like intellectual liberal, like Liberal Democratic politics that ignores, doesn't completely ignores working class entirely and. You know, and these these these people start to take power and you get Deng Xiaoping. Well I think, I think it's it's like right before you take power but then shopping wise up implementing the one child policy which is this like incredibly draconian and really successful attempt just like. Reestablish the states like patriarchal control over the household and strips like hundreds of millions of women from like like of of autonomy over their own bodies. And. You know, and and and and it really looks like through through the through through through like the late 70s and the 80s. It looks like the, like the Chinese ruling classes succeeded, right? Like they finally destroyed the. They finally destroyed like any opposition to them. But then. You know, things get very weird, which is that. Tiedeman happens. And. You know, but but by 1989, like, the whole, like, at, like as as a rule, like in general everywhere the sort of classical workers do, but that was like demanding democracy, the factory, like they're basically done. And so they're unable to sort of do their own revolutions now the only thing they can do is sort of like latch on to other stuff. But the the problem at the party has is that. So they they they've had a lot of measures in place to try to make sure that you never got these kind of movements in China and they kind of worked but. When it went to the 1980s, like, China started implementing a market economy, right? They said they start, they start like cutting this, the welfare state. They start like destroying the sort of like limited control that works had in the factories. And they kind of like unknowingly reproduce the conditions that have been producing these revolutions in every other country. And you know, as this massive inflation wave hits, they they turn China into this powder keg. And this, you know, and this combined with sort of like the the the Liberal Democratic students. Moving. Gets you this really interesting and weird ideology that these workers have, and I'm going to read it from an interview with with with one of the workers who was at Tiananmen. Why do a lot of workers agree with democracy and freedom in the workshops? Does what the workers say counts, or what the leader says? We later talked about it. In the factory, the dictatorship. Sorry, in the factory, the director is a dictator. What one man says goes if you view the state through the factory, it's about the same one man rule. Our objective is not very high. We just want workers to have their own independent organizations. In work units, it's personal rule. For example, if I want to change jobs, the bus company Foreman won't let me go. I ought to go home at 5:00 at 5:00 PM. But he tells me to work overtime for two hours, and if I don't, he'll cut my bonus. This is a personal rule. A factory should have a system. If a worker wants to change jobs, they ought to have a system of rules to decide how to do it. Also, these rules should be decided upon by everyone, and then afterwards anyone who violates it will be punished according to the rules. This is ruled by law. Now, we don't have this kind of legal system. And OK, that's a really like. It. I don't know. I think it's a really interesting sort of like fusion of a whole bunch of stuff, right? Because on the one hand. Like the, the the sort of like ruling discourse that's happening. The things students are talking about is like, we need the democracy read the rule of law and but you know the the workers in these factories are looking at the are looking at like the situation they're facing and they're like. We don't have a democracy like here either, right? And so you get this, you get what's a, a really conservative framing of the sort of very, sort of very classical, like critique of one man rule in the factory that has been happening for like. You know, like 100 years, but once you think about this, is that like? Any actual attempt to like, do this right get gets you to workers control like democratic workers control in the factory. And as Walter who Walter also wrote an another like he, he's a guy who went and interviewed a bunch of the people who had been a workers who had been involved with this. Ends. As as they point out like. This. Unlike, really like any other time in Chinese history, like. The the. The the people who are part of like the Beijing Autonomous Workers Autonomous Federation are, you know, they don't have an intellectual class like this. These are, these are just a bunch of workers. And they have very little connection. Like they have very little, like political connections, right, like beforehand, like to the liberal circles are just sort of hearing what they're reading. And this is this means like what you have here is like, it's not like an intellectual like this is this is just a bunch of workers. And for, you know, for, for, for like one final time, their instincts when the revolution sort of like starts, is to demand democracy in the factory. And this demand like above all others, is completely politically unacceptable. And you know, and when when the army marches on Beijing, it's it's these workers that they wipe out. And they wiped them out so thoroughly that the fact that this is what these people were fighting for is it's it's scrub. For the record of the CCP, it's scrubbed like the Pro Democracy movement doesn't remember it, even though their entire thing is memory. And. Yeah, and this this ensures that the meeting of these actual events, what the people were fighting for, what they were trying to do, has been almost completely lost. And. I think at this point we can finally ask what, what, what actually was Tiananmen? And in some sense, in, in, in in the Chinese context itself, it's a transition between two different Chinese working classes. These protests are sort of like, this is the last like political, sort of like mobilization of like the of the old Chinese working class, which has been these people who have been in the cities, who had been like they had been the beneficiaries of this old sort of like socialist. Welfare state. And. These people. In, in in this reach Branaman, they mount the last attack of the of the classical workers movement. And when they lose? This entire class like this, this entire urban working class that had been around since like the 20s, that had been sort of the the driver of Chinese radical politics that had been like that, had been fighting and striking for like 7080 years. They they're, they're gone, they're completely destroyed. And over the course of the economic restructuring, the 1990s there they they ceased to exist as a class and they're replaced by a new Chinese working class, which is drawn from sort of. These rural and sort of semi urban underclasses of the old social system who are like dragged into, who are dragged into the cities from from their villages, from their towns. And who now fill actually? Well, I don't know what the numbers are today because it's a weird because of COVID, but like in in 2019 there were 277 billion of these people. Of this enormous market worker like. Force who formed the backbone of like the entire Chinese working class. And these people who they have rural household registrations and this means that they they don't get any of the benefits like the sort of like welfare benefits you would get from living in a city. And this means that they're, you know, they're they they constitute like an entirely new class of of. Of workers. And instead of, you know, like, whatever sort of privileges had had been like carved out by the old working class, this one gets nothing. And the other thing that they get is this entire raft sort of capitalist ideology that's baked into like every aspect of the workplace culture. This is massive attempt in China to get people to buy homes. And you know, like when where the old working class could at least like posit the factory is like a place where you could have democracy where like life could be improved by like different controlled factories like this new working class, like the thing that they want the most is to leave the factory and become a business owner. And, you know, like this, this probably sounds familiar to like us, right? Like this is this is the old joke about like, about the about the American working class, which is that everyone sees themselves as temporary, temporarily embarrassed millionaires. And like, yeah, you know, in in modern China, it's like, yeah, OK. It's like people consider themselves to be, like, temporarily embarrassed small business owners. And this stuff. This, this is this ideological self conception of like, I'm I'm gonna work in the factory. That I'm gonna become business owner is completely inimical to the formation of like, the classical requirement and there hasn't been. That kind of formation in China sense and this, this is not really a unique thing, right the, the death of that workers movement has seen a sort of like complete and total collapse of the demand for like democratic self management, like everywhere across the entire world. And, you know, incredibly, stubbornly, like the working class, like, refuses to sort of cohere itself in the factory. So in this sense, China is really just sort of late to the game. They they they got slightly early. They got, they got slightly later to the point that we're at now. You said there was going to be a happier ending for the happy ending was last episode this episode is this episode ending is really depressing. Well I mean, OK, there, there, there, there. OK. There's a slightly less depressing note kind of. OK. The thing that's less depressing here is that for my entire literally my entire lifetime has been the US lurching from one economic collapse to another and the world the world like the international economic system. Like I think I was born in like the middle of likethe.com collapse. And then I got 2008 and then. Like there's been a bunch of economic collapses in the last, like, three years. Ends, you know. The whole system is like lurched from crisis to crisis to crisis, and that means that there's been. An incredible just like a rapidly increasing number of revolutions everywhere, even though the sort of like darker gore of the factory, like a ceased to be. This thing that like creates the working, like the identity of the working class. And this means that, you know, OK, so in order to have some kind of mass movement you, you need some kind of collective identity to to mobilize around and you know if if if you can't make this into factory, the place where it's going to be made and said is the street. And this means in the last, you know, like 20 ish years? Like with, with, without the sort of positive identity in the workplace to, to, to, to cohere itself around. Workers are really only able to sort of mobilize. On a mass basis, like indirect opposition to a threat that can, that can, that can confront like everyone at the same time, and this is the only thing I can do, this is really the state. And, you know, the state has the ability to to increase the price of basic commodities and slash welfare benefits and that becomes the only available enemy. And so, yeah, if you look at what revolutions have been in the last 20 years, it's a constant fight against the police because fighting the police is the only thing that can, that can allow you to create a new social identity like sort of collective identification. And, you know, and so this means that collective, like modern revolts, like everything we've seen over the last, like four years. The form that it takes is mass St movements and, you know, continuous confrontation with the police. And you get to literally see this with with Occupy, right. Occupy was originally like the the the the the like the slogan Occupy was about the Argentinian factory occupations in in 2001. But then you know that stops like that's the end like just one like that. That's the end of the whole cycle. There's no more factory occupations. Watch this. You get one in Bosnia has to Govia, which is funny because it's like they they occupy a bunch of factories, but like they don't know what to do with them. And so you get just like a regular like occupy like in. Like in the sort of like square occupations you'd get in like New York or whatever. Or if it's sort of like sitting in a circle and talking about stuff, but it's happening in a factory. But they're not like trying to run production. They're not trying to do any of that stuff. They're just sort of like. There in the factory, isn't is no longer the sort of like? Space of like creation and possibility that could like be turned into something new. It's just like a place. Where you go, that's like indistinguishable from like a square. And you know, for the last 10 years, it's like people originally it was like it just left, right, everyone, everyone occupying squares. But you know, by about 1014, people figured out you can't like it's it's almost impossible to hold a square if the police attempt to run you out. And so this gets replaced with running street fights with the police. But this? You know that this places everyone who's trying to do this in this incredibly dangerous bind, because. You know the the like. The old workers councils were able to bring down states like largely they got crushed by outside militaries, but they were able to bring down states because. You know, there is an enormous amount of power in being able to control production, but the problem is that, like, you know if you're in a square, right? Like you don't have the ability to do that. And without the without the factory occupations alongside them, there have been a lot of general strikes in the last four years. There's one of Peru's one in France or some in Hong Kong and Sudan, and every single one of them has been crushed. But, you know, but but this is a real problem, right? Because the current labor conditions aren't going to produce another wave of factory occupations. And so the way forward for anyone who, like you know, wants to have democracy in the workplace is completely unclear and I think. I think that's the actual legacy of Tiananmen. The workers who are assembled outside Tiananmen Square had already left their factories. And you know, for, for, for all that they spoke the language of the old workers movements, right? They they spoke with democracy in the factory and one man rule. They stood and fought and died like we do in the streets. They're this bridge between sort of the classical workers movements and us. And, you know, they, they they face the same revolutionary crisis that we face, the crisis of popular in Palestine and Colombia and Iran and Myanmar and Hong Kong, of there's this crisis of victory that's just beyond the horizon, can't be grasped. You know, I I don't think the people at Tiananmen have any answers to give us. I like, I don't think they do. I think they they ran, they ran headlong into the crisis that we ran into and they all died. Yeah, I think expecting answers from the dead is demanding too much of those who before and after us died fighting for liberation. And all we can really do now is find our own way when with the names of the dead and our lips build the world they died fighting for. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen here as a production of cool zone media. 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