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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. If you could completely remove one phrase from your vocabulary, which phrase would you choose? I don't know. Correct answer. No, I meant I don't know which phrase, and the best way to banish I don't know from your life is by cramming your brain full of stuff you should know. Join your host, Josh and Chuck on the Super Popular podcast packed with fascinating discussions on science, history, pop culture and more episodes that ask, was the lost city of Atlantis Real? I don't know. Is birth order important? I don't know. 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Executive producer Paris Hilton brings back the hit podcast how men think, and that's good news for anyone that is confused by men, which is basically everyone. It's real talk straight from the source. How men Think podcast is exactly what we need to figure them out. It's going to be fun and formative and probably a bit scary at times because we're literally going inside the minds of men. Listen to how men think on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us your attention. We need everything you've got fast. Waiting on reparations would be the endless podcast TuneIn every Thursday. Politics and word play. We fight for the people because they got us in the worst way, from the hill to Brazil, Bombay to Kanye from the left enclave to what the neocons say every Thursday. Cop the heady conversation and break us off with some bread cause we waiting on reparations. Listen to waiting on reparations on iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Look for your children's eyes and you will discover the true magic of a forest. For you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode, so every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch, if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you, but you can make your own decisions. Hey every buddy America, hey Americans America, how was American? That is the podcast. And those beyond. That was that was a horrible issue. That was maybe your top ten. Worst. This is. It could happen here, a podcast where an incompetent rube ***** up starting the show and then we talk about how things are falling apart or how to make things not. Fall apart or some version of things in between those two facts. Yep. Yep, that's a kind of kind of not great time going on right now. A lot of people are. That was our our second. That was our B pitch for the name, though. Not a great time going on right now, actually. It's not that far from what was just yeah. Yeah, I mean it's like, especially, especially right now, there's there's a lot of, a lot of trials going on feet on stuff. And the Ahmad Arbury trial is happening. The one about, you know, you know, unite the right is going on. And of course the House trial as of as of recording is people, the jury is still in deliberation deliberations. So no idea what's going to be the result by the time this episode goes up. Actually been like, not commenting on it or me, neither have to think about it. There's nothing we can do about it. You can do it. And like a lot of people, there's been discussion about how much civil unrest there's gonna be depending on the result of the trial. I know there's been a lot of, like, National Guard sent to Wisconsin. It's been, you know, FBI door knocks and activist homes trying to scare people so they don't, you know, go out and ride or whatever discussion online, the people, you know, planning protests in response to, in response to whatever the result is. I know. Today there was a post from I think the Ohio Proud Boys claiming that they be sending like, like, was it hundreds or thousands of like people armed with like AR's to Wisconsin? Or yeah, there's there's a ******* post. People are saying, like, you should take it seriously because it's from a proud boys internal chat and it's like we've got 300 guys heavily armed heading to and there's already X number of guys there and we're going to kill a lot more communists than Kyle Rittenhouse did and yadda yadda yadda and yadda yadda. If I could give you one piece of advice now, and who knows where the world is at the point at which this episode drops, it's when people talk about, say, when if you are at a protest and someone starts talking about the proud boys and the proud boys are coming, or the proud boys are here, if you don't immediately see incontrovertible visual proof that they have access to to showing it, assume it's nonsense. OK? Yeah, like that. That is my advice. As someone who has heard 1000 times people say versions of the proud boys are coming, OK? Insist on evidence or ignore it. But you know whenever whenever these big civil you know unrests and types of stuff happens there's always an increased chance that they'll be some kind of protest related shooting especially if people are definitely absolutely happen. By the time this episode drops especially if people are bringing guns people bringing firearms into there there's been a lot of there's you know for like the demonstrations outside the courthouse there's been you know guns there there's been you know an increasing in the rate of. Shootings at protests on the West Coast throughout the past few months. So I'm going to be kind of talking about, you know, some things that you can do if you're at home and you feel competent enough. In the aftermath of one of of one of these shootings. You know, if if if you know, if a proud boy does bring up, bring a gun and shoot somebody. Want to what you can actually do if video, if you're in a situation where a you've been following something happening all day there's a shooting and like low quality footage starts coming out of somebody. Killing someone or someones else. Here's what to do next if you want to maybe be a positive part of of that of that process. Well not of that process but of like the the aftermath of it. Yeah you know and and because because the universe is cruel. I originally wrote this wrote a write up about the Rittenhouse shooting because the universe is a cruel place and it's going to you know continue to this particular incident is going to continue to be impactful even though it's not the first. It's not going to be the last one. These it is still impactful because of how much of a symbol has been turned into. So I I think a lot of people forget about how how chaotic the night on the Internet was, the day of the Kenosha shooting like it was. It was wild being online as that was going on. No one had no idea what was going on. People could not agree on who the shooter was beforehand. There was a lot of pictures floating around. It was. It was, it was a. It was a nightmare. We know we knew that people were shot. We could not know how many or who like it was. It was pretty bad and chaotic and it is always that way in the wake of a shooting and it is the in any given shooting. Always keep in mind when you're when you're online or in person and there has been a shooting and people are saying things about said shooting other than we should take cover from the shooting. If they're saying anything else about it, you have to assume they're probably not either wrong or not entirely accurate because. It it's hard to be. It happens constantly. I mean, that's not and it's something against any of them. I can remember a moment when you and I were out last year, Garrison, and there was a shooting, I don't know, like 40 feet away if nobody hurt, thankfully. But like the the immediate report from it was some guy had gotten pulled an AR15 out of his car. And and I I think the thing I said to you was, I'll bet you right now it's a 9 millimeter handgun. And sure enough, within minutes there was a photo. Yeah, and it's not that those people were like, dumb or bad. It's that, like, shootings are scary, guns getting pulled is scary, and people **** ** in in their recollections. It's the same way in which, like, if a bear comes after you, you may exaggerate the size of that bear in your head because you're scared of ****. Yeah, because it's a bear. Yeah. So I was home on August 25th, just and I I I was, I was actually about to go out to to cover a purchase in Portland. But then I saw this happened. On my phone, on Twitter, it was like, I cannot go out. I will be more useful at home. So with with so much uncertainty online or in the details of the actual shooting it was, it was clear that trying to provide concrete information would be crucial in the hours to come. So I booted up my computer and started to try to begin to search for, you know, information and and verifiable stuff. So I I spent. I spent all night looking, looking for details about the shooter. You know, uncovering his supposed identity ultimately. About an hour before the police announced their investigation even started, and and 12 hours before the police announced the shooter's arrest. And also, to my surprise, at the time I I discovered that the shooter was the same age as me. Which was fun. Yeah, wait a moment. For you that was that was that was the night. So because I because I mainly use Twitter and most of the video of the incident was on Twitter, I I started my my investigation by looking at Twitter. Like my first goal was to find as many videos of of the shooting that I could and collect pictures of all of the alleged suspects, all the people who were claiming hey this, this is the shooter, I think. I think I got a picture of the shooter who here's who he is. So I I kept my eye on trending terms, so I searched under the hashtags like Kenosha, Kenosha shootings, Kenosha shooting, Kenosha protests. Boogaloo was trending a lot. A lot of people thought the shooter was a boogaloo, boy was not, and also a #militia. So the the search has brought up a lot. A lot of photos of of multiple young men, most of whom were carrying long guns, and a lot of unconfirmed reports that the shooter was a boogaloo. Boy was trending on Twitter. That was the main, the main thing that night was boogaloo. Boy shot all the stuff that that was the the main trending topic. A lot of a lot of conflicting details and I did not want to kind of add to the misinformation. So I decided to not make any posts about whatsoever about the identity of the shooter until I was 100% confident that I had the correct ID, which takes a while. It's it's not. You know, Twitter wants you to post stuff quickly as soon as you find it out and it's way better to hold off your information and and wait until you are absolutely sure it's the right time to post it. Because it's correct, correct stuff. Because Miss, Miss, miss. Identifying a suspect can have serious, serious consequences for any individual involved. It's one of the worst things you can do is is is misidentify any any suspect. So I was looking through all the videos that I collected for kind of unique or identifying clothing that that the shooter may have been wearing. The first video I found useful was from a right wing videographer named Drew Hernandez. Who? A few months later called for bloodshed at at the Capitol. He also testified at the Rittenhouse trial. This video did not actually show any any actual shooting. It had a wounded person on the ground being treated by a medic and a man standing over the scene with with with a gun. Wearing a green shirt, a tan baseball cap, jeans and like purple latex gloves, he had, he had a he had, he had a black and orange bag. The person in the green shirt then runs towards the camera while talking on the phone and he says into the phone, I just shot somebody or I just killed somebody. It's hard to tell where he's actually saying if it's one of those things where if you think about it, you can hear both ones. Yeah, but but he he says something like, I just killed somebody on the phone and he runs past the camera. So this, this, this, this was the first kind of really important piece of information. Yeah, personal person that was brought up in the trial too. And he, he was like, I don't remember what I said. Oh, interesting. OK, yeah. And to be honest, like, even if if this was, I don't think any of us believed this was legitimate self-defense. But like, even if it was, either of those things would be perfectly acceptable. Things to say, it's a surprising moment. Yeah, and you probably wouldn't remember what you'd said. I don't necessarily think he's lying about that. It turns out he was he was on the phone with the the person who bought him the gun of, of, of, of a friend of his. Well, but but the, the, the this was my first like important piece of information. I you know the the night of, right? This is before anyone's analyzed any of this stuff. So this is the first video that I can find is like, OK, here's a person admitting on camera that they shot somebody and wearing a few potential identifiers, namely the the green shirt, baseball cap and bag. So now I can search for all of those items together and the rest of the footage collected throughout the night, looking over the the the the top viral videos of the night showing multiple people getting shot. This is from. This is from later on after the first person gets killed. We can see someone in a baseball cap, black and orange bag and what could be a green shirt running through a street. Somebody runs over to the individual with the gun and kind of punches them in the head, knocking his hat off. So now the person running with the gun does not have a hat. Individual with the gun keeps running but trips and falls in the ground before people try to disarm him. Four more shots are fired from the suspect and one one more person dies. As a result of this, other person gets their arm nearly blown off. Uh, there is. There's one continuous video of all of this happening. Extremely useful. Having having one video of this whole shot. Yeah, let you time and everything. Yeah, yeah. So the the shooter who appears to be the same person is the other video because of the green shirt and the hat at the beginning continues to get onto his feet and runs off again. And the the orange, orange and orange and black bag swings in front of him as he's running, and a purple Glove is also visible. Multiple vehicles drive past. Like police vehicles. The shooter then walks up pretty close to police vehicle and he just he just he just with the rifle and nothing nothing happens. He he like he wait, he waves to the cops and they just keep driving and he walks away. So after finding watching these videos I had you know I had no reason to believe the shooter was in custody and I had a good idea of his clothing and attire. So now it's time to you know compare this information that I gathered to pictures of the supposed you know suspects circulating on Twitter. But but first, I think now it's it's the time to listen to people selling you stuff. You know who doesn't? Oh boy. Travel to another state to show up armed in a community to threaten people. They don't do it. I'm saying they don't. That's good. OK. The products and services who support less podcast HelloFresh. Black Rifle coffee Washington State Patrol what do you have against? Actually, a number of our sponsors will show up unwanted in your community. Armed. I forgot the Washington state highway. Remember when the FBI have both dropped ads now? Well, also so you know what the Highway Patrol don't forget about those ************* like Kyle Rittenhouse. A number of our sponsors may show up in your home neighborhood with another one. Also. Black rifle coffee. Kyle's favorite brand of coffee, remember? That was until they disavowed him. And that's a long story. Here's here's the ads. Here's the ones that paid us to do it. We're bad. Yay. Yeah, so there was there was a lot of pictures of suspects on Twitter, some of them who look nothing like the person we now know who shot those people. Funny how that happens. It's, well, it's not funny. It's pretty pretty, pretty, pretty bad. Yeah, yeah it's it's not great to to share stuff like like that when these things happened, which is why I said I'm not going to share anything until I 100%. No, I know that it's it's actually worth posting about, so. In I'm going to go through, go through all some, some, some of the pictures and stuff of of. I'm through at least one of the pictures of one of the people people claimed to be the shooter. So in one picture circulating you see someone in a green shirt, a baseball cap, and big big big black rifle. But this man's also wearing shorts, a Black Hat, not a tan one, has no bag, appears to be wearing like a tactical vest that is also green. So not the guy, even though he's wearing a green shirt and hat. Not the same dude was. Be pretty easy to check. Not you don't you really don't need to show that kind of stuff. Pretty sure. Pretty sure a lot of people own green shirts. Yep. So two of the photos that were circulating, they're claiming to be the guy. We had a green shirt a a tan baseball cap put on backwards jeans. One of the one of the pictures has a a bag in front of which is an orange and black. One of them doesn't. One picture has purple gloves or the picture doesn't, but these dudes? Look pretty similar, despite the same differences. I'm pretty sure this is this is this, this is the same guy, but you know, I made the decision at the night. This is probably the same dude, and he does appear to match the shooter a lot better. And there was a few, a few clearer pictures of his face here. But honestly, the face of if you look at all the pictures of the Kenosha shooting that night, the pictures of the suspect are really unclear because the way that the light hit his face, he looks like an incredibly generic white boy. Like. Extremely generic. It is hard to tell any any I identifying features from his face because they look like an archetype. He looks like every every white, every white boy. It's really hard to say everyone you went to high school with who. I don't know, sniffed a girl's chair when he like it. Yeah, that that's that's Kyle Rittenhouse. Gross visual. Now that I decided that I have like, I have a decent collection of pictures of who I believe the actual actual suspect is. Time, time, time to figure out who the suspects like name actually is and this is this is one of the this is one of the harder things, but often you can have a lot of help in ways that you might not expect. Often once you can get a good picture of someone you know be like, yeah yes this this is actually the dude. Once that gets shared enough, often somebody knows who this is already. You know the Internet is a pretty big place. I, I believe the first I believe the first person to actually like like, I, I was, I was the person to like prove online who who Kyle that kind of knows was the shooter. The first person to actually tie Kyle's name to the shooter was a neighbor of his on Facebook that they they saw. Pictures of the shooter on on Facebook and said, hey, I think this, I think I recognized this guy. I think, I think this is my neighbor. So often once you start, once you have like enough pictures and those can spread, people will fail to find names. It isn't as hard as you would think that the hard part is, is finding out what personal connections are making those links and finding out what, where, where those are. But stuff, stuff spreads in a weird way. And right for this, you know, I I think I was able to prove that it was Kyle pretty quickly. For a few reasons so. After I was doing my my my clothing comparisons to figure out this is to prove like he said this is the actual person who who did these things. The other thing I I found that was not was not viral at at all but just because I was digging through so much stuff was this meme shared by I by some. Like small boogaloo account it was a picture of the shooter. Compare right beside a collection of Blue Lives Matter pictures of someone who looks kind of similar linking to a Facebook page. Alright, no, not not linking. It was it was. It was screenshotted from the Facebook page and I can tell because of the font and it was like it said like a rittenhouse's photos. So this was the first. This is the first thing I saw on the like buried deep inside like Twitters Twitters Twitter images. But by using all of like these hashtag terms was this meme and and and and the meme said so y'all. I think he's still a boogaloo. No, no he wasn't. Because of all of like the Pro police stuff. Because Google is generally are not not that fond of police. They sure aren't, yeah. So so yeah. Given, given. So, you know, if someone was to look at this, you know, look at this meme itself, it's like, OK, you know, the job is done, you know, information. This dude looks vaguely similar ish to the guy on this Rittenhouse Facebook. The gun looks kind of similar because one of the pictures of the Facebook was was a guy holding was a guy holding an AR but you know, just something looking similar or even holding a similar gun in one picture from a Facebook account. That's not enough to be sure about publishing a positive ID that there's this. There's no actual really there's no like definitive proof there because honestly, if I was to look at these two guys faces, they don't look incredibly similar because faces can distort with lighting and compression. It's it's it's it. It can be really difficult. And this is where, you know, trying to idea shooter is hard and requires complex judgment calls and posting inaccurate information or like incomplete information can have, you know, extremely harmful effects. And there's a lot of examples of this. Of putting the past you know, probably the the biggest example or the the most notorious one of false identification is the Boston bombing incident. Yeah, so you know, right after the right after the 2013 bombing, you know, thousands of users on sites like Reddit and 4 Chan became combing through footage to try to identify potential suspects. Screen caps of the people they deem suspicious went viral online on on various social media sites. Unfortunately, the sleuthing work done on 4 Chan and Reddit was incredibly shoddy. Unseemingly had way more to do with like, racial paranoia than actual detective work and evidence gathering. The The New York Post subsequently published a picture on its front page that that originated on Reddit that users had declared that that was showing the two suspects without doing any further verification. So it's it's it's real bad how stuff can spread from red like this. It's completely unverified to, you know, a newspaper even as one as unreputable as the post. That's still a very popular paper. The the Post also claimed that. The law enforcement we're looking for those 222 individuals in that picture, one of the one of the people identified by the post was harassed online and police. Police later told him just to delete his social media accounts entirely because there was no use at that point. When the FBI did officially release photos of the unnamed suspects, Reddit users again falsely identified these people. One of the people they falsely identified what went missing for weeks prior his his family received. Media inquiries about the false, unverified rumors of their son's involvement and rumors of of of involvement were spread by reporters from Politico News, Squeak, Newsweek, NBC News and BuzzFeed. Eight days after the bombing, this guy was actually 8 after bombing Guy was actually found dead in his family, said it was a suicide, was not not one of the shooters, were not one of the bombers. So again, why even more than the tactics you could use to try and, you know, verify. Things online. The most useful thing you can take out of this is if there is a mass shooting or other act of violence and people on social media are saying it is this person, don't share it. Don't just don't share it. Just wait. Especially no value in sharing it if they have, don't have anything to verify this also, yeah, like I'm not going to. Not going to. Don't. That is the overwhelming thing we we want to get. You know, that's why, you know, not going to share this. Kyle Rittenhouse. Boogaloo meme because there's no proof for it. It it it it's it's not there. Now eventually after digging I would realize that this meme cut is comes from his neighbor saying that she thinks the suspect is him. So that's that's this man was created but still like there there there was no no proof for it. So I don't I I didn't share it. So all the Boston bombing stuff was like going through my mind as I you know found this and was trying to dig for dig, dig for my details. So yeah, I knew that I could not post a name on any social media. Or or any info until until I could prove it. Like without a shadow of a doubt that this is the same person. Because a lot a lot a lot of times it is possible. Just requires work in time, you know? And a big part of doing this on Twitter is like you want to get it out fast, that you're the first person to do it so that you know you can go viral on your thread of identifying this killer. And like, no, that's not the reason to do image verification. It's not to go viral on a thread. It's because whenever that's your goal you're going to do, you're going to do ****** fast work that is going to end up causing some kind of horrible. Consequence, like in the case the Boston bombing and to be even extra clear, the primary use for this, that kind of what you're teaching people image verification, which is something that like like Bellingcat, which is has been like kind of a part time employer of mine is a is an open source journalism collective that's broken some of the biggest stories in the last couple of years. And in the classes we teach a class on image verification. And the point is just whenever someone is sharing a piece of what is like supposedly breaking news based on video or images that have been taken at the site of a whatever. Image verification tactics can help you to know whether or not it's whether or not either it's true or false, but also just whether or not the image, the information they're presenting, gives you any reason to believe it. Like it. It's like how the information is useful, or how it's just knowing you might be full of ****. Like that's super important. Yeah. Like there's a thing that happens like, and and anytime there's something that looks like a war starting, there's like this video of a bombing from 2014 in Gaza that goes around. Yeah, yeah. It's like every time. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's actually five or six different kinds of things that are like that, Chris, that are like, oh, this is there's actually footage from, like, a Russian video game that people keep keeps getting, like, mistaken for actual combat footage. And it's like, no, it's ******* from a video game this has been on. This has been three wars. Now there's this famous footage of like a ******* an airsoft battle at night with glowing with airsoft pellets with the glowing pellets and it it kind of it kind of looks because it's black and white not a great camera. It kind of looks like tracer fire and it's there's like 3 wars that people have said like look this is real combat footage from it happens all the time and again great great account to follow is a hoax eye on Twitter. They they they do really good work pointing out just like kind of more like more like less high stakes. Kind of image, image verification stuff. So, but before I get into the actual like verification work of like proving, hey, I can actually prove that that no, by by not just someone's face, I can prove that this shooter is the same guy from the Facebook page. I'll explain that next first short short ad break and then we will finish up with this actual proving section. Yeah, you know who? Is. Not. Kyle Rittenhouse. How you have really dropped the ball to all of the transitions today? Yeah, I am not proud of myself or my place in society at the moment. Here's the ads. We're back. I've I feel terrible, Garrison. And so, even even though the Boogaloo meme was not hard evidence it did, it did provide a lead. So after seeing the meme I did, the first most obvious thing that I could see was compare the gun in in the two frames. They do look similar. They're not. They're not identical. The optics are different for each rifle, but the rest of it. But the stock, the the grip and the barrel do, do seem do seem to be, do seem to be. If not, if not identical, at least extremely similar, again, still not enough to make a positive ID on an individual basis. Like this person is this person. So the next step is to scour the actual Facebook account itself that is alluded to in this meme and see what I can find there. The the the goal obviously being to find statements or pictures that will tie this person in the images of the shooter to the person on the account. So that's, you know, clothing location intention. You know all types of things that could tie the the pictures of the shooter, the pictures of the person on on on this account. So Kyle right now says old public Facebook profile was mainly made-up of Blue Lives Matter and pro police images going back as far as 2017 with a few then recent pictures of him holding his AR15 style rifle. Those the rifle pictures were like from June. The shooting happened in late August it appears. I think it came out in the trial that he got his rifle around like may. Umm. So yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot of pro police stuff, a lot of thin blue line, blue lives matters type things. His public his his public page is is relatively sparse and there was no public friends list to look through. 11 noteworthy piece of information was that he did. He did list another name for himself as Kyle Lewis believes, his mother's maiden name. But but Even so, even though I wasn't able to view a friends list and there wasn't any public posts. This is his page is by no means a dead end. I could still see everyone that has commented on, shared, or liked his public posts because like so he did not have he. He did not many have any pictures himself on his page that that that I could use for verification. He didn't have like nothing that I could tie to the shooting besides the actual gun. So not, not tons of useful, not tons of useful stuff. But there's perhaps there's still other other leads to look through, like everyone who's liked, shared or commented on his posts. So I opened up new tabs for every single person that interacted with Kyle's posts. While looking over their pages, I was searching to see if any of them had listed Kyle as a relative with a focus on anyone with the last name of Rittenhouse or Lewis and and you know ideally was looking forward to see if anyone had pictures of Kyle or someone who seems to be Kyle. One post from May of 2018 eventually eventually proved a useful one. Comment read Kyle. You sure do look like. Us. So there's the alternate last name, and two people had liked that comment. Kyle himself and and and someone who is his mom, which would later find out is is is his mom. So she said that, uh lived. She said that she lived in is it Anna talk, Illinois? Antioch, probably Antioch, IL, which matches with Kyles, Illinois based pro police posts. He made a lot of like Chicago Blue Lives Matter post. So I assumed that Kyle was from Illinois and also Antioch. Is that you said whatever, Antioch, Antioch. To Wisconsin Antioch to Kenosha is only like a 30 minute drive. So that is also like, OK, that's that's that's pretty close. That is that is doable. So was I the next I, I went, I I went through a lot of the relatives pages, but I'm going to focus just on the person who I found out who was Kyle's mom, because they're the one that had the most useful information, right? A lot of other information I looked through just didn't turn out to be useful, right? So I'm not including all of that here. One post from from Wendy's mom featured a younger Kyle wearing a police outfit. I'm sure people have seen this picture online before. I think I was probably, I was. I was probably the first person to share this photo of Kyle in this in this younger Kyle wearing this, this police, this police costume. An unbelievably cringey photo. Like, even outside of the fact that he took two lives, like, just yeah. So, I mean, look, we all have. Photos we took while in ROTC, like. So yeah, ideally we would, we would get. There is, there's actually, there's actually a lot more of these photos. There's photos of him touring. This is stuff. I also found that night photos of him like touring a target with police as he's in a police uniform. He was part of like a police young cadets program. He would, he was like 12. So that's where he got this outfit and he like tagged around with police for like a day or something. And there's photos of him like in a target with police. Even when I was like a ****** right wing kid that sounded like a nightmare. So so yeah, so Kyle's the person who I figured out was Kyle's mom posted this this photo of of her and Kyle, which which Kyle liked. And then in another picture of another picture from from Kyle's mom, I found it's a family picture, including Kyle wearing a what I would say is like an army green shirt, kind of similar, but it's a green shirt like I have. I have shirts that are pretty similar. That I'm not. That's not going to be anything super definitive. Until we got there was a one one picture that that proved to be much, much more, much more useful of Kyle on or someone who I assumed was Kyle. You don't, you don't. You don't actually see his face, but he is wearing a horribly cringy American flag Crocs. Which which Kyle. Which. Which, so and and and on on Kyle's page, there was also pictures of him wearing those same Crocs. So, like, even though I can't see the person's face, the Crocs are the same, probably the same guy. He's also wearing a tan baseball cap. And on this I can actually see that it has an American flag on the front of the CAP, which I I did not notice on anything else before. So that's, you know, that's something different. But again, not that that's that's not that's not that's not like a red flag. That's just, you know. A thing to a thing of note because the the the the baseball cap is tan and it has like white mesh on the sides. The one the one thing I did I I I I I did make one post before I actually did any kind of I claiming to do I identity stuff. I did ask my Twitter followers if there's any pictures of the back of the shooters cap and I got them to to send me those and then I I got one picture of of the back that actually has I couldn't see like OK the back of the shooters cap also has the flag on it so I was able to actually show that OK so the the the baseball cap. On the back of it, but they're both tan baseball caps, both have white on the sides, they both have an American flag. And then I got another picture that was even closer that showed a tear on the brim of the hat. And if you zoom in on one of the beach pictures, you could also see a tear on the same position on the hat. So this is the this hat is the hat is the same hat the hat was definitely. It was definitely in both locations. So at this point based on the gun. Based on the hat, based on the location being very close to Kenosha and being closed on the rough facial similarities there was there was enough. Enough to enough to to. Enough to put put stuff together to be like OK, I I think I think this is this is probably this is you're probably fine in saying I think this is probably the dude. So at this point I I wasn't. I wasn't. Again I'm not going to post this immediately and I'm not going to post something by saying this is who it is without providing the evidence. So instead of like running a thread tweet by tweet, I read the whole thread out and then tweet the whole thread at the same time. So so I I put it on the thread documenting my relevant stuff. I I wrote the 1st 8 posts the same time and posted them together with all the evidence uploaded and then and then as I was writing the thread I came across another piece of evidence. There was one I I was going through one of the live streams of of that night from a channel called the Rundown Live which I've not heard anything of before or since then. But you know one of the many streamers that were out in in 2020 and you can see you can see Kyle inside the frame and then like pans away. These people are still talking. So, so Kyle, Kyle is actually off camera now, but he, I think someone like asked him his name and he and the person who I think is Kyle, replies Kyle. Now, of course it's off camera, so it's not. You can't be totally sure. There's there's enough context clues and that plus only other evidence. I'm like, OK, this is enough to add to the thread because it again, it's it's not enough proof by itself, but it combined with everything else completes a much fuller picture. So I posted my. Like 9 or yeah like eight or nine thing. Thread on on being able to prove its Kyle via you know, comparing stuff like the gun, the hat, the shirt and demonstrating my work, tracking across Facebook and how I was able to like link these two people together. 22 minutes after I posted the threat, identifying Kyle, Kenosha police announced that they were that they were starting an active investigation. I soon added a court document to my thread about a a traffic violation. Of by someone named Cowritten House filed a few days before the shooting. The traffic violation thing also included stuff like a dress, which I I blacked out the address for that just because sharing the sharing for reasons I'll suit explain because again, if it's if it's a true violation, if people really want it, they can't find it themselves, right? It's it's not making it impossible to find it. And this was able to confirm that it was in the same location Antioch. And also this this proved that Kyle was 17. At the time this is how we knew that he was 17 years old at the time of the shooting was because of this traffic violation of document found online. So the the address on the violation document was the same one I had linked to Kyle's mom. By doing other like OSINT address work I was able to find out where what what her address was. So so yeah, I that was. That was most of my work that night. It took about. I don't know, like 2 ish maybe. Well, it it it it it it it's hard. It's hard to break up. It's timing. It it it it it. It took about half an hour to get from the Boogaloo meme to finding the matching baseball cap on on Kyle's moms Facebook page. About another half hour to write out the thread and you know, about an hour of work previous to that about, you know, trying to find out the actual, you know, footage and categorize it and OK, this is the clothing he's wearing. Here's the clothes I need to look for on social media. Right. See, see, see? See if I can find these shoes, these pants, this this shirt, this hat, this bag, that kind of stuff. And I was able to find enough of those items to make it pretty, pretty clear that it was, it was, you know, linked. And that makes you, Garrison, one of the first people in the world to get to know way more about Kyle Rittenhouse than you ever wanted to know. A lot more than that. This nightmare has been going on longer for you, for everybody else already. And his family. Yeah. And so I want to know a few other ways to do image verification, specifically on Kyle that that I didn't do what other people did after. After I after I said, hey, this is probably the guy. So afterwards, people found other kind of evidence on Kyle's Tik, T.O.K and Snapchat. So it turns out Kyle was snapchatting his night in Wisconsin, which we would find out later. So he was that he was snapchatting from Kenosha. Garrison, First off, I do feel as the representative of Zoomers in in this call. Why you why you guys all using the Snapchats, huh? I I don't. I don't use the Snapchats. Well, I'm making you answer for the crimes of your generation. The crimes like the snap? Nope. Well, technically speaking, I have one friend who I only talk to you through Snapchat, and we both only use it for that. And we don't know why we use Snapchat. Yeah, there's a few people who are like Snapchat. People who only text. Snapchat and I don't I don't get it. Yeah, except neither of us are like that. We just downloaded just specifically they're just got signal anyway. So yeah the Snapchat is also a tik T.O.K. There was a footage of of Kyle attending a Trump rally at Tik T.O.K. Also him like assembling and testing out his gun was on a Snapchat I believe eclipse that it were also shared on Tik T.O.K. So I could have gotten a lot more closer details of the gun if if I looked on if if if. On Snapchat or Tiktok, and I think if this is this is good advice that I've taken since then and for other people looking to do this stuff if if a suspect looks young you know Snapchat and Tech talk might be or and an Instagram might be apps that are worth are are worth checking out for information as opposed to like Facebook. Right. I lucky lucky enough there was enough stuff on Facebook on this instance typically probably because you know Kyle's family was conservative so and he was conservative. So higher chance of being on Facebook there but you know in general. Who's younger? Maybe look on younger apps? But yeah, so, you know, good thing to think about, you know, whenever these like chaotic, panicked moments happen, you know, misinformation can spread very, very quickly and cannot stress enough how dangerous and irresponsible it is when a suspect is named without proper verification. You know, last last September, Ian Miles Chong falsely identified the suspect in the shooting of two LA police officers. This resulted in the falsely accused got a man and receiving many death threats online. I think emails. Chang did this like again a few months later. He he he he was doing this a lot last year. He's doing he was really bad about trying to identify people. But you know, doing solid verification work is possible, but extreme caution needs to be taken. And I need to be very mindful of the consequences of your actions when you're doing this work and also want to put out. Garrison is very good at this that that's why it took two hours and 1/2 hours. It's going to take you. It takes a lot longer. Yeah. Like honestly, like I was like finding Kyle was just the. White mix of things and one moment often it does. Often it doesn't go that fast and it doesn't need to be right like a big. A big part of the problem is that if people think about it needing to be like a fast-paced thing, that's where that's where the the mistakes happen. I was just lucky to have enough like dominoes fall in the right place to. I identify how the night of having having his neighbor say hey this guy looks similar to my neighbor, extremely useful in in in, in, in in the long run right like that that happened faster than that happens in a lot of cases and so that really accelerated. Things sometimes it will be easy. Sometimes, like a good example of when it's harder. We have a decent amount of footage about the individual who placed bombs outside of the capital before the 6th. That person has not been identified in the ******* FBI. Seems to have no *** **** clue. But also what they were way more intentional in what they were smart. Whoever they are, they're very capable. They were. Half of them is their shoes, basically. Those are those are kind of the poles of this right on one like that with with Rittenhouse, you've got this situation where it's like all of the information you need to identify them is there openly online. And part of OPSEC if you're doing things that are crimes is to make sure that it's to limit that that that whatever it is you are going to to the to the crimes in there. Nothing exists on the Internet that connects that to your name and face and that that doesn't, that doesn't. Always mean black bloc. That can mean other clothing, especially if you've been photographed in black blocker. But yeah, I think like if you look at, if you look at the guy who dropped off bombs on January 6th, he's not, he's not wearing black because black block draws attention. He's wearing like a graze. He's he's wearing like a good guy. That well that individual person is either a former Fed or former special forces. They were very capable leaning towards fed who showed up in clothing they had never worn. Born before and paid for, used in cash, probably from a variety of places. That clothing was burned as soon as they got away. They were out of the state as early as it was possible to do. So plant them and then immediately get out like and, you know, by the time the capital, right, by the time they're bombs had been found, they were, they were. If they were smart, they gone, you know, like that's how anyway, whatever. Like, those are kind of the police. Oftentimes it can be if someone knows what they're doing, this process. Be a lot harder, like in the case of the of the people, the of of the guy who left the bombs at the Capitol. You know, Kyle, it was not, you know, wasn't wearing much identifying clothing, wasn't even wearing a mask because COVID was for *****. So, you know, there's a lot of these things that that made this process, you know, easier than a lot of lot of other verifications. But like I said, there still was a lot of false ID's going around that night. So I'm kind of still happens. I'm kind of on the fence myself as to whether or not it would have been. Pay for like for our country or the society or whatever you want to call it if like, how much more damn it or less damage would have been done if Kyle Rittenhouse had been someone who showed up in impeccable like clothing that he could not be identified from ******* ran off and was never caught. And we just knew there was the shooting of protesters in Kenosha by somebody like, I don't know how much better or worse that is for society. If that happens. I don't know. I'm. I'm thinking about. Terrible things, but sorry, but First off, I want to apologize. Sometimes talking about this stuff winds up seeming like advice for how to commit crimes. That's not the intent. It's just when you talk about what makes something difficult to identify, you're kind of by default talking about like, here's how to here's how to get commit a crime and get away with it. And it's the kind of thing, like, if you're doing verification work, one of the things that helps is to kind of put yourself in the mindset of somebody who, OK, if I'm in this situation and I do this, what are the decisions that I might make afterwards? And and you can kind of try to think through this person like it can be helpful, especially if you're trying to, like, track someone through a day. So, you know, someone was at this point at a protest at X hour because they shot somebody. It, you know, think through, OK, what else happened that day? Were there other protests? Other gatherings like or is this Mint mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist? Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. 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Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's SPREAK. Er.com get paid to talk about the things you love with spreaker, from iheart and in a series of events. Can I go look for you know, videos from other things in the area that this person might have also been at and may have worn the same clothing? There's anyway image verification is is fun. Catch the fever. It is. It is a fun thing to do. It's good to if if if you're not able to attend in person demos for like like physical reasons or whatever, or like mental reasons. Doing this stuff from home is another way of getting involved. She really now tracking down bad people after after they do bad things, yeah. So you can you know, if you want to learn more about this with you know the benefit of also visual AIDS Bellingcat has if you just type image verification, Bellingcat, there's beginners and advanced guides to verification, there's talk about like manual reverse image search tools and like how well they work, there's quizzes, so go go there if you if you find this interesting it it can be quite a hoot. But you know what else is quite a hoot ending? A *** **** podcast. Which I'm doing now. We're done. Goodbye. I call the Union hall, I said. It's a matter of life and death. I think these people are planning to kill Doctor King. On April 4th, 1968, Doctor Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of his life in prison. Case closed, right? James Earl Ray was a pawn for the official story. The authorities would parade all we found a gun that James Earl Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Doctor King. Except it wasn't the gun that killed Doctor King. One of the problems that came out when I got the Ray case was that some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, lethal listeners. Tig. Here. Last season on Lethal lit, you might remember I came to Hollow falls on a mission, clearing my Aunt Beth's name and making sure justice was finally served. But I hadn't counted on a rash of new murderers tearing apart the town. My mission put myself and my friends in danger, though it wasn't all bad. I'm going to be real with you, tig. I like you, but now all signs point to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this game is just starting, you better believe I'm going to win. I'm Tig Torres and this is lethal lit. Catch up on season one of the hit Murder Mystery podcast, Lethal Lit, a tig Torres mystery out now and then TuneIn for all new thrills in Season 2 dropping weekly starting February 9. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen to lethal lit on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert lamb. And I'm Joe McCormick. And we're the hosts of the Science podcast stuff to blow your mind, where every week we get to explore some of the weirdest questions in the universe. Like if sci-fi teleportation was possible, how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would an interplanetary civilization function? Does free will exist? Stuff to blow your mind examines neurological. Quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is time to come. Join us in the place where you belong, the stuff to blow your mind podcast new episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to America. That's not great. Here's a podcast alright this is Sophie. This is it could happen here. The podcast welcome it is if you're an international listener and you're not American. That was really get the **** *** of our podcast. Just like just left people out like you just Robert are you going to do one for every other country? I think they're being rude for barging in. The Internet is clearly American soil. I would pay good money for a wackos things, but with Robert saying all the country, all the countries of the world. Well, you know what you need to do in order to be able to pay good money for something, Garrison? Wow. You need to, you need to, you need to get money by, by working. Well you could say bank would be born rich, but if you're not born rich you have to work. And a lot of people are saying what if we did, what if we didn't? And now they have a subreddit and that's what we're talking about today. Anti work, not just the subreddit, but that's why we're talking about it today because the anti work subreddit has grown. Hugely. And it's got like a it's or it's like doubled. It's been around for years. It's more than doubled. It's almost, it's almost, yeah, it's, it's, it's. Years later, yeah. Yeah. OK, great. So Garrison, why don't you kick us off? Now that I've let everyone know what to expect, I will stop working in solidarity with the anti work movement. Thanks, Robert. You're welcome. So yeah, if the the past few months, if you're anything like us and if you're online in the same ways that we are, you've probably seen like a flurry of of posts and screenshots depicting text conversations between like an employee and their boss. Typically the boss like asks them to come in when they said they were going to have to be. Having to have time off or something. The employee objects. The boss thing gets mad and makes threats and demands the employee be a better team player or some ******** like that. And and then like the employee said something like, well you know what, actually I quit. Good luck filling the shift now by. And then the boss like pleads that the now former employee comes back and offers like concessions and end of screenshot. So pretty soon this type of like screenshotted text conversation became like a meme format with with people joking and obviously like. Aging fake ones as well. Uh you know, similar to the scene I just described. But but but by all accounts this trend started incredibly like sincerely with with genuine text conversations showcasing like worker abuse and and you know bosses being unreasonable and cruel and some people quitting their jobs just to stand up for themselves and all this stuff is kind of tied up in the worker shortage kind of myths. The great resignation as a as a lot of pundits are calling it. Yes yeah the people of. People resigning and then you know a lot of like big companies complaining about worker shortages and and central to this like text conversation, online kind of meme, trend thing and and and employee resignations is a subreddit called anti work. So the anti work subreddit has been a growing place specifically the past year. Their motto is unemployment for all, not just for the rich. It's a it's a good motto. Good it is. It is a solid. It's a solid bottom yeah of their their their own like a description is a subreddit for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work free life, want more information on anti work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs slash work related struggles. So back in back in February it only the sub. It's been around since 2013, but back in February it had like 235. 1000 Subs and now it has over 1.1 million. It's grown. Most of that growth has been in like the past two months. It's it has kind of kind of exploded in popularity and actually it got it. It got so big and there's so many posts on it that they have to, they had, they had. Now they have to like restrict text message conversation screenshots to only being allowed to be posted like on one day a week just because of the intense influx of of these posts. You know, some of them genuine. Others, maybe not so much. And even though the subreddit may not be the biggest in terms of like subscribers, it's it has more like daily posts than something like the Wall Street Bets subreddit has. So even though it doesn't have as many subscribers, the amount of actual like posting on it is is is higher than a lot of other separates as well. So it is it is growing in popularity, ABS like in in, in in multiple ways. It it it feels a little bit right now. Like the social media equivalent of a of a sort of Damocles like Wall Street bets made a not insignificant splash earlier this year. It was it was quite a thing for the the the national economy for a little while there. And anti work hasn't had that moment, but I kind of feel like it might be getting close to critical mass, like something, something might come out of this. Yeah, which I think would be rad. For the record, I think would be rad. Absolutely. And you know, it may not be one big. Thing, but it could be a lot of smaller things, right. You know, sometimes it's harder to see bigger change when you're like having more anarchist adjacent ideas and and and the and the anti works that when it does does try to keep itself being a radical subreddit and does try to fight off neoliberal sentiments and stuff. And there have been, there have been some complaints I've seen of people being like, oh, the Liberals have gotten in and and people are talking about like, well, I just really want a life that's like, I'm not stressed all the time and I have enough money. For for bills and stuff or like people have been talking about like oh this job like I I left my old job and I got into a better situation and that's good and there's complaints about that and I I think it is important to like push against de radicalizing the subreddit. But I don't think it's bad that you're getting a lot of liberals in there who are not turned off by the name anti work. And I I think that's I think it's positive that that they're even if they're you know they're not coming at it from kind of a revolutionary perspective but. Hey, it's OK to quit my job if if the conditions are **** and try to find a place where I'm treated better, if that's their inroad to this kind of thought. I still think that's pretty, pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's not realistic for every single person. Well, and actually it is realistic for every single person to quit their job, but it's it's not realistic for only a few people to right? And sometimes if, if not if everyone's not going to do it, like literally everyone, then he knows some people can't, can't afford to quit their job. Right now they have like kids to feed or whatever or themselves or you know there's a lot, there's a lot of reasons which I'll kind of talk a little bit more about later. So and so the term anti work just does not does not come from the subreddit and anti work has been like a post left term for a while now and it kind of kind of applies to a broad spectrum of like anarchist adjacent kind of thought around, hey, if we're going to, if we're going to question like capitalism. And and the state, we should probably also question just the idea of work itself and how it functions and how the state kind of works only possible with the state and and it's that specific line line of thinking a few examples of like of like you know seminal anti work books. One of them is Bob Blacks, the abolition of work. Crimethink has a really good book just called work, which is another another one that gets referenced a lot even in the subreddit and also a ******** jobs by David Graeber. And ******** jobs was also kind of partially inspired by Bob Black. The the abolition of work. All of those are are great resources and specifically like ******** jobs is great in like a in like a for a modern outlook on this like Bob Black's book was written, was written a while ago and ******** jobs is definitely very timely and even even even crime. This workbook also also addresses stuff or even though it wasn't not written within the past, I I think it is maybe slightly older than than a decade, but I think they they are updating it with more information about like the gig economy and stuff like that. Yeah, and it's. It it's not as it's characterized and as as anti work is often characterized by critics, it's not saying like nobody should have to do anything in a way. No, it's not. Actually, we'll talk about Diogenes later, but it's not everyone should just, like, lay around and do nothing. It's people shouldn't have to do the thing that we call work, which is destroy your body or your mind or both, most of your waking hours, most of your life, in the hope that you'll get 10 years as an old person. To not do that like and and and and a little bit that that that's bad. That's a bad way to be a person. Like a bad way to have to be. And it's not bad to do that. It's it's bad that you have to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a, there is a little bit of it that is about finding time to chill out. Was going to apply a lot of, you know, a lot of the ways if you have to keep a job, you know, the different ways you can you can go about that job that dude does that makes it so doesn't like kill you. One of my favorite ways to think about anti work is just like anti capitalism put into actual practice. So it's sort of, you know, just debating online about anti capitalism as some, you know, future things like no, like what can you do to actually, you know, make capitalism less important part of how you live your life every day. Which means, you know, not obsessing over careers and all these kind of other things. So I think I think first of all. It might be useful to kind of think about like what do we actually mean by work? Because work is kind of a works like A is it? It has a lot of definitions depending on what you like, you depending on like what you mean by it, right is, is it just like wage labor? Is it just forced labor, you know is cooking for yourself or your family considered work? Not always, but you know like at times when I when I'm like relaxed I I quite enjoy cooking for friends and family but but certainly, but certainly it can feel like work sometimes, especially if you especially if you just got home. From like a work shift. So in a way like work creates more work. And it's not, it's it's it kind of. It doesn't it isn't just it isn't just about like wage labor or something. It can kind of apply to a lot of ways about how you live your life. You know, there's a lot of laying down wood chips or sawed. If that's like your job every day can be like a miserable, backbreaking process. If you actually have a huge yard or like own a little bit of land and you're making your own garden, that can be an intensely, like the best part of your week. It can be a great form of play. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's it's not the. The problem is not the individual tasks necessarily. It's what work is as a as a platonic kind of concept in our society. Yeah, not and and again, one of the things, and I think this is one of the things Speaking of you talked about David Graeber earlier, who's an anarchist anthropologist and widely seen to be like one of the most brilliant anthropologists of his generation. He recently deceased, but a book that he wrote before he died with a another and another fellow came out recently called. The dawn of everything that talks a lot about how, yeah, these ideas. That kind of capitalism has a vested interest in you believing that the world was always hard in the way that it's hard. By which I mean, like in order to get basic necessities, you have to make somebody else rich or find some grift of your own. And as opposed to like, yeah, life is always hard, but life wasn't didn't always involve labor. The way we we think about it, labor is not been a constant. In human civilization, in fact, most of human civilization people have not done a thing that we would recognize as labor. And I think also, even even if you go towards things that, like, look more like labor to us, right. Like, I don't like, look like if you look at, like, feudal levies. Right. You're a peasant. You have to give some amount of grey interior Lord. But like, OK, we work way longer than medieval peasants did. And not only do we work longer, it's something greater. And David Wingo, talk about in that book is like, yeah, like, not only do we work much longer, like, the amount that we work would have been considered absolutely. Like, even even a feudal Lord would look at that much work and go, no. Like this is this is this is like yeah and and you know and I think there's there's another great present as another point he wrote a piece called turning modes of production inside out. Where his argument that like OK so if if you take you know if you take like Plato, right. You're like you take any of the Greek philosophers even the conservative ones and you show them this the thing the thing that we do every day. Right. You know you have to you you're you're completely under the command of another person for like at least 1/3 probably more of your day. Yeah. I monitor you and Garrison's bathroom breaks. I look at your texts with family and friends. It's it's really. It's an incredible situation. Yeah. It's an incredibly strict surveillance state from Robert Evans. Yeah. Yeah. This is like, you know, if you show a Greek person that this is like, this is the apocalypse to them, this is, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen is every single person in society has like essentially been reduced to a slave. And you know. That's bad. And it doesn't have to be like, it's not that they've been because I I want to push back on that terminology because it can go to some uncomfortable places. It's not that they are treated as a slave, it's that in the hours in which they are expected to labor, there's a societal expectation that they they act as the property of whoever owns the business or manages them, right. The idea of like, if it if it like that attitude from like like working in a kitchen or working at a fast food restaurant, like if you lean, if you're. If you can lean, you can clean. Like that attitude is saying you do not have any autonomy when you are at work. You are the property of the of the employer while you are at work, I think, yeah. And and and I think, and I think, you know, I think this specific thing with Greece is that like, you know, you the only way you could do that to someone in Greece is if you owned them. Like, you know, like Greece has wage labor, right. But the only people who like it has wage labor, but it has wage labor for slaves and that's like it, right. Like this, you know, and this is like. See, not to say that, like, you know, we're like having a job is the same thing as slavery, but it's just to say that like the the kinds of things that we think of as normal, like are things that like the people who. You know, the people who run the system, the people who you know get cited all the time justify stuff would have looked at as like the worst thing that could possibly have happened to a society. Yeah sure, for sure. Like daily life for a very substantial chunk of of the American workforce is that would be a nightmare to large percentages of the the human population prior to the modern. Like it's it's and and and if you think about it that way like one of the things Graber does a good job of going into is like the way in which and this is also something comes up in in in tribe by younger. The way in which like during the early period of colonization of North America it was very common for you know Europeans to leave the the cities and towns being established behind and and join up. And join with the tribes. Yeah. The reverse never happened. Like, yeah, like not willingly, not without kidnapping being a part of it. And it's because, like, their attitude was they were looking at the the lives these people were living in these cities and like, well, why would you agree to do that? And this is turning anyway, Garrison, you should you should take us back on the rails. This is getting more first, but first, it's time for products and services. You know what has nothing to do with the fact that human beings are forced to labor for basic necessities in order to keep up? A system that steals the freedom of the many in order to provide impossible liberty to the few. You know what isn't related to that? You sure? The advertising? Absolutely. Industrial complex. Not has nothing to do with it. Totally unrelated. Why would you say that, Garrison? By the way, did you know that McDonald's egg muffin is turning 50 years old and it's giving the breakfast? Stop it. Stop it. They're they're they're they're selling it for its original price of $0.63 during breakfast hours, 6:00 AM to 10:30 AM exclusively on the McDonald's app. Isn't that cool? Do you guys, do you guys want egg mcmuffins for $0.63? That's the original price. I wonder what else the McDonald's app is looking at on my phone. Anyway, here's some ads. Oh, we're back and we're talking about anti work. We're talking about how works kind of ******** for our jobs. Yeah, yeah, we sure are. We sure are. So, you know, like there is there, there's a lot of people who who like enjoy stuff like gardening, fishing, carpentry, cooking, and even like, you know, just fighting this fighting computer programming just for their own sake. Like a lot of the stuff that we like, quote UN quote, needs to need for society to function. A lot of those things people like doing for as hobbies in their spirits. For example, if you're a police officer, gunning down a man in cold blood might be kind of like your day job and like frustrating. And there's a lot of **** you have to deal with if you're a mass. Shooter, though, you you just love it, you know? You're just doing it. Hope you're moving. It's not work. It's not working for a mass shooter. That is that. That is exactly what the Kyle Rittenhouse thing is, though. Like, like, like, like, like, actually, like, literally that. That is that is what this is. I mean, we're not going to get the verdict. Today doesn't look like, not today, which isn't a bad sign. By the time this airs, it may already be done. But anyway, like, a lot of people like doing those things without getting paid. And sometimes, you know, often like costing themselves money, right? A lot of these hobbies are. You know are costly in their own in their own right. And I think it's interesting to you know think think of a society where you're when you're free to do those things when you feel like it and you don't need to drag yourself out of bed at you know, early in the morning to work, to work a 10 hour shift as like a cash register. And it's not just even when you feel like it because there will be things that you have to do even I will discuss this later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In any like but there is it's it's not work if you're if you're going out and harvesting food that feeds you and your. Community. That's nuts. And like work in the sense that we talk about modern work, the amount of extra energy we have by not having 10 hour horrible shifts that drain ourselves mentally and physically, and more in with, you know, with the amount of most of the work that we people do, as shown in David Graeber's ******** jobs, is, like, not necessary. Like, a lot of like a lot of the work that we do as a whole is not. There's there's some quibbling about because the book was based off of a study, like a survey that kind of showed a lot of. Very significant chunk of the workforce thinks their job is like pointless and doesn't do anything and there's been some criticisms of that. But it is undoubted that a very significant amount of total labor time spent is stuff that isn't necessary for any like reason of like making people's lives better. And another part of like anti work theories is looking is looking at our society as it's built. You know, because it is, it is tied to anarchism and be like how much of this is actually necessary? Like how do we do we really need a mic rib? Do we do. We guys know what we do? We do. What do you what do you, Garrison do? Sophie, we do not. Sophie, call HR. Don't need a mic rib. We do not. So it's about person is 100%. No, listen, I did the company training and they said you can't they? Company training says you can't attack someone for their religion. And Garrison just attacked the Mcrib. So that actually is, you know, it is a religion for a lot of people. Did you see that? They're they're they they or they they did sell a Mcrib FT a few weeks ago. Anyway, tell me that. **** that is so upsetting. Thank ***. **** it. Yeah. Oh yeah. Just saying society with no money would not have NFT's. Would not gosh you know thinking of like anti work as as the theory you know it's about cutting down those those unnecessary things that fill people's time and you know and for a more you know forward forward-looking sense it's it's a general kind of like app like abolition of the producer and consumer based society. So you know life is not dedicated to the production and consumption of of goods and commodities so you know this this applies not not just to capitalism but also you know like. Like socialism, where, you know work is still, you know, a big part of state socialism. And I think, you know, it's humans. It it it it posits a future that humans could be way, way more free when they, you know, can reclaim their time from jobs and employment instead of, you know, spending a lot of their time doing that and spending spending a lot of like, not just time but also just like their energy. Right. Because even if you work, you know, 8 hours a day, you still have majority of the day to yourself, but you're exhausted, you can't do it. You can't do much right. It it it it drains you of everything. So you know, the, the, the, the, the main .1 of the main points of like. The abolition of work essay by Bob Black is about like there's no one should work because because work is as defined as like as as like as like a forced labor practice is you can kind of track this to being the source of most of the misery in the world from you know in individual people who are forced to do this. Like this is where a lot of a lot of their pain comes from is is this is this is this forced labor concept I think. I think a good a good way, you know there is, you know, the point that Robert brought up earlier is like, you know what about the tasks that aren't fun? You know what about what about the stuff that isn't, isn't maybe as as enjoyable. You know, there's this, there's there's a list of list of things that the standard responses who's going to clean up the poop? That's the thing. So, you know, I I kind of, I I kind of, I kind of look at this. As like the I kind of look at this as, like whenever I have to like, turn the compost, which is not my favorite thing to do, I I I don't look forward to having to turn over our massive, ****** rotting compost pile. It's not not my favorite thing, but we have the whip. No. But not like if there's if, if, if there's like friends around and we're playing music and we're all we have. Like some like have I have some have like an iced tea or a doctor pepper and we're like talking as we're turning the compost. It's a lot more doable. You know, it's, there's, there's, it's, it's it's one task that's going to help all of us in the future. And I'm not getting watched over by a boss to fill a certain quota so I can pay my rent, right? It's, it's, it's, it's this, it's this thing that helps everybody. And I, I, I, I and I do it because I want, I want the goal of it to succeed. So there's, there's, there's, there's going, there's always going to be tasks that are less pleasant than others. And now what we can do is, you know, imagine a world where the amount of work actually needed to be done is greatly reduced so that the tasks that are necessary and some of them unpleasant, can be spread out. And among more people, because less people will be wasting upwards of eight hours a day, five days a week doing mostly pointless time filling work. Because, yeah, there's there's there's going to be things that suck and we'll be able to do those a lot better if there's more people and we don't have to waste our times doing stuff that is is honestly a lot more ******** than actually scooping ********. Wow, what a good joke. Speaking of scooping ******** it's time. U it's time to scoop up some more ads. Wait, really? Haven't we done two? No, we no, we only did one. Ohh alright, well we went to while without doing one. Guys listen to the products because everyone loves this as a service. It's not like the thing we're talking about is bad. It's different than that, so it's fine. Yep we're back and we're still still talking about anti work. I I do this is something that the the crime think workbook points out and you know this is a pretty it's pretty obvious thing I've I've certainly thought of this before is you know we've been told that the like technological progress will soon liberate humanity from the need to do work or from you know having to do work as much. And today we have the capabilities that you know our ancestors couldn't have even imagined for for the amount of work that we could get done. But these predictions still like aren't true. We're still working more than ever. Even though we have developed so much technologically, we're still working more than ever. And I think it's silly to think that we'll we'll we'll reach like a magic threshold where somehow now we have less work to do because we'll have like robots being a server at A at a McDonald's or whatever, right where they're still there, there's still is forcing people into this thing because this is the only way that we can live, right? This is we we built our whole society around getting work for money. So this is the only, the only thing that we can do. Yeah, David crepery. One of the things he argues in ******** jobs is that basically. You know, OK, so so if if you have. Like, you have the Soviet economy, right? OK, so the Soviet economy has has a policy of of full employment. And for a little bit they were like, OK, what if we make everyone work less and then they stopped and then like, everything went to ****. So, you know, OK. But if you can't make people work less hours and everyone has to work, what do you do? It was like, OK, well, you pay a bunch of people to like, stand at a doorway right now. We also do this and what Graber is like. Funniest points that he brings up is that the the total number of bureaucrats in the ex USSR like increased dramatically after the USSR fell. Which is incredible. Yeah. And you know, what it points to is that, like, yeah, you know, Graber called this total bureaucratization, which is that, you know what? What we did, instead of, like, giving ourselves more free time is created. This just like endless, enormous, incredibly violent bureaucracy that all of us have to spend all of our time, like, dealing with ******** from our insurance companies and, like, fighting with, like, the Comcast service person and all of this just like, you know, incredibly violent, dehumanizing stuff that. You know it's it's it's a make work program, right? But it's a make work program that just. The work that it makes is everyone is making everyone's lives miserable and we could just not do this. Yeah, I mean we could it. It's always more complicated than that, right? Because the the thing that is when we talk about anti work, the thing that's on the other side of this is like, OK, well, what if you get a kid? How are you going to feed that kid? Like what? Like how are you gonna keep him in a house? Like how? Not just if you have a kid, but like, yeah, you people die in our society when they do not have access to adequate resources. And the only way to have access to adequate resources is to be born rich or to work. Those are your options. Yeah. This is why without without robust mutual aid and the commitment by a lot of people to try to make sure that a lifestyle is sustainable outside of, you know the system. Like it's not impossible but it it's somewhere along the line there has to be input. I mean it would be we've been talking about squat and be a freegan. But yeah we were talking about any work as like kind of like a broad hopeful like future goal in some other you know post scarcity will not post scarcity but like it's post like a post crumbling post kind of collapse future. But I think, you know. For us now, as you know, the entire cyber is about people now, right? The entire segment is not about a future world. I think the anti work now is like an alternative to the obsession with living your life with the goal of a career. Yes, it's about, you know, it's like a project to radically reframe the how we think of work and leisure. It's like, like, like like a cognitive antidote to like the like this culture of like hustle and hard work, which is like taking over our minds. And and in our time. So it's like yes, for those who can't just resign from their job for whatever reason, whatever moment the anti work is about. Like thinking of this movement as like the antithesis to the mainstream capitalist hustle culture. You know that that includes like slacking off more, finding ways to waste time, possibly even finding ways to steal or scam your boss. I I've I've read certain certain alleged ways of doing this inside the anti work, Garrison up on my car for days, even know where where they got it. From. But yeah, no. But like, you know, like there is, you know, like ways to like scam, scam, whatever corporation you work for, right, that there's been examples shared in the anti in in in the anti works. Right. So, you know, it's about actually like finding, you know, making sure that you hate your work because you should and then figuring out how to live your life with that in mind. And I think what one of the really hard parts about this is for people who like kind of like their job, who people who are like, who like either like their job or think it's like kind of important or like they're special to have it right. It's like, oh, you're like, I'm lucky to have. Such a good job because, like, when you're stuck in that mindset, you can often put in, like, a lot of extra unpaid labor because you think it's important because you're like, Oh no, this is worth doing because it's going to have some, like, benefit to the world. So you end up, like, putting in actually more work that you don't actually get paid for. And, like, it's about trying to, like, kill that instinct as well. So that's a whole, a whole way to think about like, working because, like, we're going to be stuck. A lot of people are going to be stuck doing it for for for a while. So how can we kind of reframe what we do on the job and how? Kind of jobs live in our minds when we are at home and and I think the best thing about what you've said, in my opinion, is the idea that like this is not. The importance is not on whether or not this this causes everyone to stop having to work immediately, like whether or not it leads to, you know, directly to like. The measure of success of this movement isn't that nobody ever has to work again. That's a that's a long term goal. The measure of the success of this movement is that people accept in mass that know the American dream as it's sold to people is not a good thing to it's not a thing to aspire to. Work is ******** and we should aspire to a society that doesn't do it. It's getting back. Honestly, like it's getting back to some of the **** that people were talking about in like when the Jetsons was on TV, the idea that like, well with labor saving devices, the like a hard work week will be 4 hours. And like, that's the way life will be for everybody. And like, Umm, and the IT it's the acceptance that like, no, a better future involves me not having involves no one having to spend 40 hours a week of their limited human life working at a ******* Sonic, or like listening to some middle manager berate them for not answering phones. Fast enough. That doesn't exist for any human being in a a world that is achievable and better than the one that we live in. Like convincing people of that and getting that to be widely accepted is, I think, what I think what is what I would consider the terms of victory in in this particular struggle. Kind of moving on from this side of things into like the great resignation and the other kind of things that people are doing so in. In August alone, 4.3 million Americans voluntarily left their jobs. And the rate of people quitting increased to a. Recent a decent record high of like a 2.9% according to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics so and this this this this has been a growing trend you can look at like I think June was like a like a little under 4,000,000 August was 4.3. It's like it was you know it's it's ramping. I I don't know what if I don't know if we have data for September or October yet. This was the most recent one I could find. So yeah like it's stuff stuff is stuff is going up people are because people are like a big part of the. My brother is like, yeah, if your job sucks, you can quit it and probably find another one that pays better in decent time, especially, especially especially right now. Like right now, if your job is really terrible, you have a decent chance of finding a better one. This wasn't the case like two years ago. It is the case that at at this moment. So a lot of the antics and it's like, yeah, quit your job, like say **** you to your boss and leave because if they're being ****** then they don't deserve to have you. So resigning has been a big part of this. And there had there has been attempts at other kind of organized stuff, and this kind of falls in. In my opinion, this kind of falls into the same kind of traps as sole Internet organizing kind of always does. So the the big thing that they're organizing for is called a Black Friday blackout, which is about kind of trying to get everyone to as many people as possible to not work Black Friday and not buy anything on Black Friday. So like a post from December here is like, spread the word call in sick if you're forced to work. Black on Black Friday, spend time with your family. Instead, remain at home and participate in your favorite activity. On Friday, November 26th, talk to your family and friends about your work, life, struggles. Pass out Flyers. Join our slash antiwork. So this is, you know, I think this kind of falls into the same like you know General Strike organized online stuff that we talked about before how it kind of like a lack of like real like in person solidarity and like non Internet, you know networking and organizing results and stuff like this just you know like proposed like one day strikes or actions that are ultimately kind of non effectual, right. Like they can be like a good symbol sometimes but like you know, they're not it's it's not it's not really going to matter that much even even if it works what I think would be cool if literally no store was open on Black Friday because everyone quit. Yeah, that would be rad. But that's that's not, that's not going to really happen. It would be fun if it did. But like, realistically, it's it's not, it's not going to happen. And there is people on the subreddit who also point this out there, there, there was, there was a reply to this post that was like, oh, look, another online call for a general strike with no union support whatsoever. Don't worry, all this one, this one's definitely going to work. So it's like, yeah, like a lot of people in the sub also recognize that, like, without like actual, like organizing support and in person stuff and you know? Networks to support people on like you know lengthy strikes. These types of things are kind of are mostly symbolic actions that will have you know in the end little little impact Umm they they may make you feel powerful as you're doing them which is you know which is good that is a lot of activism is actually just just about you feeling powerful in that moment but you know in as as an end goal. Remember it's important to be remember to think like it's not it's that this isn't you know this isn't going to. Reach whatever antiwork utopia, which I I know people people organizing it aren't thinking that, but you know, it's it's it's important to keep this within context of like the limits of of of of online organizing. You know. So a lot of people like recommend you know focusing on organizing your own workplace and community discussing, you know discussing, having discussions with unions kind of in in your area. And yeah, a part, part of part of, kind of the part of the reply to this original, like Black Friday blackout post that that's someone that someone wrote was was a seriously though, I I would love for an actual general strike to kick off, but these online calls for general strikes, no Union involvement, no demands, no supports for strikers of any kind, no nothing whatsoever beyond social media hashtags. Don't do anything. Focus on organizing your workplace and community. Discuss with unions which might be sympathetic to what criteria, what criteria they might need from such a drastic action. There's a lot of unions on strike right now, so if there ever was a time to kick one off, it's now. Most general strikes in the past started off with specific strikes that started pulling in other unions and solidarity than anything else. Focus on that and we might get somewhere. I think is, is is a decent advice for the people who are really dedicated on to this kind of like general strike. Thing is, yeah, that is, that is, that is pretty, pretty good advice in in my opinion. I want to say something kind of briefly just in general about general strikes because. I think we've talked about it a lot on here, but they're really, really hard. I mean there, there there's an example like just to get a picture of like how, how actually hard it is to pull off. And there was there was one in Sudan in in summer of 2019. And you know, I mean, this is this is in the middle of a revolution, right. The the Sudan is incredibly, highly organized. It's incredibly built and people have been like, you know, I mean, people like the like. The chance in the street is like, uh, you cannot kill us. We already dead. Like, you know they and you know and and it's the the whole revolution is being led by the Sudanese professional association, which is an association of like 17 trade unions. Right. 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I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes. To get comfortable with speaker and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love with speaker from iheart for the Army opens fire and starts killing protesters. And so they called general strike. And you know the turn out is massive, right? They have 1,000,000 millions upon millions of people show up to the strike. And on day one, it's successful. And then on day two of the strike, people start having to pull out, especially people in the informal sector, because even with the level of organization they have, they can't support if you want. And by about day three, most of the strike has collapsed because even even with levels of organization they had, even with. You know, the coordination, even with the fact that in the middle of a revolution they just, they they couldn't support, particularly people in the informal sector. So this stuff is really, really, really hard. And. Yeah, it is. It is definitely hard. Yeah, like, even even highly organized, highly motivated people who are, you know, like, literally willing to fight to the death. Will lose and that's something that you have to sort of keep in mind I think when you're talking about this because a lot of people are more focused on kind of their individual resignations, finding other ways of making money and just slacking off at work in general because those are a lot, a lot easier than trying to organize a general a mass general strike right now. And I think one of the really optimistic things about this whole anti work thing, including the cyber is that it has made some bank executives kind of nervous. There was a fantastic article by Yahoo Finance. Now by fantastic I mean funny for me you know they they they did not think it was as funny about they talked with like the the Golden Sachs CEO of and and they pointed to the anti work subreddit of being what was the, what was the phrase. A long run risk to to to labor force participation. Good. This is. See that that when I first read that in the article, I just like flashed to my head in my head to that scene from a Starship Troopers where a Neil Patrick Harris puts his hand on the brain bug and goes it's afraid. It's afraid, yeah. Yeah he he said of we see some risk that workers were elected will elect to maintain out of the workforce for longer provided they can afford to do so of pretty pretty good stuff and and pretty good stuff and everything is worth mentioning that hasn't been talked about very much is that so this is actually kind of working in some sense like the the the last few months or 2020 in general last few months particular have seen basically like the highest levels of wage increases that we've seen in decades. So you know. Like, yeah, we haven't overthrown capitalism yet, but like if if you can keep quitting your job, keep quitting your job at at your regular job, work less, keep doing it. It's working. Yeah, this is stuff I wish we need to in the future. I would like us to be focusing more on stuff like that, like this. That is a legitimately, as you point out, Chris, there's a lot of reasons to be very optimistic about, about some of the numbers that we're getting from what is happening to labor right now. And it is important. Because we all like, right now we're all miserable because we're sweating through the Rittenhouse case. It is important to talk about stuff like that, that like, yeah, some **** people's doing is is is hitting the home. Some ****** ******* have found the glowy vulnerable spot on the the Boss monster, and it's it's doing the weird working. Yeah, it's just not working. Yeah. Like, again, as we started the series with like, yeah, General Strike is is kind of the best available solution. Yeah. The path to a solution that I can find. But anyway, uh, what, what, what, what, what, what else? That Gary, I think that does it for us today. I know is that a solid Chris has said Chris has we'll do more special special like sequel Stuff Happening so TuneIn tomorrow for our listening work in China and like like all of the best sequels, this one will be directed by James Cameron. So we're all very excited to bring our pal James onto the pod to bring our pal James and the reanimated. Corpse of Stan Winston. It's going to be amazing, so check it out. Hi, everybody. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York Times Bestseller Fair play and find your Unicorn space activists on the gender division of Labor attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor Edidi Naukar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast timeout, a production of iheart podcasts, and Hello, Sunshine, we're uncovering why society. It's so hard for women to treat their time with the value it deserves, so take this time out with us. Listen to timeout, a Fair Play podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. After 30 years, it's time to return to the halls of W Beverly High and hang out at the Peach Pit on the podcast 9021 OMG. Join Jennie Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills 90210. From the very beginning we get to tell the fans all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen so they know what happened on camera, obviously, but we can tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about for decades. As 90210 Super fan and radio host, Cincinnati sits in with Jenny and Tori to reminisce, reflect, and relive each moment. From Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire 10 years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely nothing of the 10 years that we filmed that show. Listen to 9021 OMG on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The art world. It is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls. You know, they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Ohm. Listen to art fraud starting February 1st on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. **** work. Kirk, hey, hey, hey, hey. Good. Enduction. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here. That was. Chris Garrison's also here. So is Sophie, who's who's changing her name to Sophie. What is your name? Sophie.com arena. Sophie.com arena. She's doing this to deal with the trauma of the fact that Los Angeles just agreed to change the name of the Chase Bank Arena to crypto.com ************. Staples Center. Staples Center. Sorry, I'm getting my arenas named after venal brands mixed up. Anyway, buy more binder clips. Speaking of the pointlessness of work, there are people laboring right now who worked at Staples so that Staples would have enough money to name a place where people go do sports after a place where people get ******* pencils. And now Staples has declined enough that it's just crypto.com ******* crypto.com crypto.com. Look upon, look upon the works. Cryptocurrency he formerly mighty staples in despair ******* the Ozymandias of the office supply world. I don't know. Whatever, Chris, what are we talking about? We're going to Chinese yet, no? Is in the middle. But right now we're gonna go to a place where they they they banned crypto mining for the most part, so and that that place is China and I I wanted to talk about specifically a lot of stuff has been going on the Chinese Internet what's been going on in Chinese labor because. So get get Garrison, Garrison told me we're doing the work episode, and I went, Oh yeah, there's a there's you know. There there's a version of this in China, and then I realized that like. A almost no one has heard of lying flat, and B it rules and see that nobody really know in the US knows what's going on in the Chinese Internet because it's. Effectively siloed. And I mean, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's different ways to slowly, I mean there's literally the great Firewall, there's faces in different languages, people use different apps and you know, the Internet has become this sort of like, you know, it's all bubbles that don't interact with each other. Yeah, the wall garden thing and it's, you know, the, the, the sort of national level walled garden stuff is. I think in a lot of ways way more dangerous than the stuff you know, the like people complaining about one such an ideological bubble and like, that's bad, but the fact that we have. Bubbles like this, where it's like, you know the with like actual like basically borders but online. Yeah yeah. Because they're enforced by governments and with force in the a yeah yeah yeah. The place it was always going to go once we decided not to be rad with the Internet, which everyone collectively decided in, I'm going to say 1004, OK yeah. Do you? Do you think? Do you think, do you think, do you think that was 911's fault? In 911 played a role, 911 did play a role. The.com Boom played another role. There were there there. There were a number of factors. That we can all blame it on. Let's blame it on low tax and continue O antiwork in China before we get into lying. Flat, which is China's version of Antiwork isn't the right word, because this actually started a few months before sort of antiwork blew up in the US. But before we fully get into that, to understand what's going on here, we need to talk about something called evolution. And you say that again, like in in informal involution involve involve involution. Yeah. So this is this is, this is originally. This is a very obscure anthropological term developed by my old nemesis Clifford Geertz, who's one of the most famous and most important anthropologists in history who also sucks *** and I hate him. I thought your nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also, but for different reasons, should I cancel the hit sub sub nemesis? Someday I I have many, I have many nemeses that I have. Ohh come here Jody Dean episode at some point. Those are our enemies too now. Thank you. I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars. Although this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war. Yeah what you said so I said that most of the. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. So what, what, what George was describing basically. So she does this field work in Java and what he's describing, what evolution means. It's a system where people keep working harder and harder, but there's no increase in output and so that there's no, there's no reward for working harder. And so, you know, in Java, you'd have these plantations, right? Plantations would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But because each new person was only, like, harvesting just enough to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases. And so interesting, you know? Yeah, there's no, there's no output increases. And. Which is not really the case in America in a lot of ways. Yeah. And and what's interesting, well, OK. So the reason I want to talk about this also is because basically everyone. Who's been writing about this formation news outlets has missed about half of the story of how how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that, like, I I don't like again, I was an anthropology major. I don't think I ever ran into involution while, like while I was studying anthropology. I've never heard that term. Yeah, and no one has ever heard of this like *******. Everyone in China has like a like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Yeah, and and you know, I want to talk a bit about how to merge and part of this is because. You know, in the last about two years, people getting increasingly ****** ***. At, you know, just the sort of incredibly competitive nature of Chinese society and particularly work. And, you know, a lot of this is because. Everyone's working what's called 996, which is 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM six days a week. And I should make this when I say everyone, that's like an average schedule. The schedules get a lot worse than that. But 996 is the one that sort of gets the attention because a lot of people work in, especially the tech industry. This is, you know, we do, but, you know, everyone focuses on the tech industry. Everyone ignores a bunch of biking workers who also do this and worse. And, you know, there there's just a normal societal pressure to sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working. And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since, like people would literally collapse some mission in the fields in the Great Leap forward. Like, you know, that's lots of people working this hard and. But instead of, you know, getting rewards for this, Chinese growth rates have been collapsing for a decade. And yeah, this is, you know, this is, this is the thing you get in the US too. Was like, well, OK, people were like, well, if you worked to get into the middle class, but then, you know, everyone's working 996. No one's getting into the middle class. The like, China has incredibly low rates of social mobility. And you know in into this comes involution. But the the weird part about what's happening here is that involution. Doesn't enter. That that the Chinese discourse through like people complaining about work. It's it's actually a product of a bunch of middle class people complaining about Chinese industrial policy. And this is the story that nobody really talks about, even though I think it's really interesting because. Again like this you know anti work in in the US starts in the left right. Involution, which is the thing that's going to bring about sort of the Chinese version of Antiwork is the right way, is originally a right wing discourse. And and it's interesting, it's it's a right wing, very nationalist discourse that gets, you know, the right wing part of it gets essentially expunged and it gets pulled left. So originally you know China is. I don't have a more elegant way of saying this than China's leaders are more online than ours. Like significantly more like they they actually round that heightening that's hard to Amash it. No, that is deeply problematic. Yeah, people people like like local government offices, right have like they they have these like internal sites that like show them what people are posting and this this goes from the bottom levels. It goes away to the top like people actually listen to bloggers. Like, like they're, they're, you know, some of the people. We're about to talk about are incredibly influential, and there's a bunch of arguments in the early 2000s about how China is going to industrialize, and these are basically online arguments. Umm. And the guys who win that argument. Alright, Xiangping basically takes their industrial policy and implements it. Which is, you know, which is which is scales like how online these people are like, yeah, people are taking economic policy from like literally. I mean, you know, it's it's not solely that they're taking economic policy, people arguing on the Internet, right? This is, this is an incredibly online society and it, you know, but the worst part is that for a while it works. You know, the economic policy basically is they're gonna increase the size of the Chinese economy by investing in sort of high tech industry and moving up the value chain. This this has been very standard search Chinese economic policy for a while. The problem is in the past about decade it's it's it stopped working. And you know, the CCP's response was to do more financialization, and this ****** *** the like the the online they were called like the Industrial Party. This is off those guys because, you know, the whole thing was don't financialized. Just keep investing in like, building airplanes and stuff, and the Chinese economy will work itself out. And but eventually even they can't keep making this argument because, you know, I mean, like, like she doesn't 10, right? Like the train GDP growth rate was 10%. And now it's like maybe five and last year, I mean last year is 2020. So you know it was really low, but I mean the Chinese growth rate has been imploding. And So what you get out of this is, is this group of people called the coasts but based on this guy named cow? OK, so, so cow, how's the guy who who who essentially introduces the concept of evolution and he's arguing that. This is happening because, and I'm gonna quote him here, if people can't get quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house because of the US. And so the solution to this basically is to deal with but to destroy America as a hegemon. And then once you do that, you know you can get. All of these things. And as you can tell, like, you know, OK, peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house. This is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is this is the Chinese equivalent of, of 2.5 kids in a white picket fence. And it has all of this sort of associated gender politics and class politics that go along with that. And you know, and and when, when cow and the cow are talking about evolution with the talking about is they're literally, literally mean China stagnated economy, right? So they're talking about, OK, you have more inputs, you have labor technology inputs, but the output for input is declining. And the only way to restore economic growth that chief prosperity is by solving a decline in output by defeating the Americans. But you know, and and this this is kind of a big deal and for a while and sort of like 2019-2020 this this is this is going places. But very quickly, people are like, my life ******* sucks. Like I don't care about this econ **** or this like Grand National struggle against the world, hegemon. Like I care about the fact that, like, my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat race with, like, literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that would concern me too, if that were a thing that we were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's there's been some really funny stuff with evolution where like you read accounts of it and you'll get like anthropologists going like, Oh yeah, this is this is the thing that this is the thing that's unique to China and it's. Have have you worked a job in in the US like? But you know, involution, you know what happens to it over over the course of sort of 2020 is that it goes from being the general, you know, it goes from being this thing that's about like very specific, like technical industry arguments about industrial policy to. Is 1 when anthropologists put it quote the experience of being locked in competition that one ultimately knows is meaningless. And so people start, yeah, we could, we couldn't imagine that this is no. Yeah, and it's, you know, and people, people start talking about finding individual solutions to this. And so, you know, and this is things like working less, moving to lower tier cities, getting less prestigious jobs. But you know, and I want to think about this again because this this is a really interesting. Thing where? You have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort of like, like middle class, like nostalgia, kind of like, you know, like milk, aggressive foreign policy thing. And then it just flips. And part of how it flips, and this is a part of the story that is almost completely ignored, but I think is really important. Do you guys know about this YouTuber named Mitzi? She's the biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has 16 million followers and most of her followers are not on YouTube because, you know, you choose like blocked by the firewall, but she has, she has 55 million followers on that, that sort of Chinese version of Tik T.O.K. And yeah, she has, first of all, she's 100 million followers, right. She she's she's one of the biggest media stars in the world. And her origins are kind of unclear. The like official biography basically says that, like, when she was 12, instead of going to high school, she became a waitress. And then she had to like, you know, but she she had gone to the city and then she had to return to rural village, take care of her grandma. And she makes his videos that are these like. Very soft and calming videos with, like, calming music of her going into the woods and like, harvesting materials and making fires out of logs and, like, cooking things. OK. And it's it's it's just like it's, you know, it's very much this, this really utopianism. There's there's basically no industrial technology. Yeah. Like Cottage Core returned to nature. Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of people who watch **** like that just to like, soothe them after a day of work, like see somebody like dig a cave and turn it into a like a bath or something using just hand. Tools or whatever, yeah, and there's interesting this kind of it's almost like turn into a subgenre, but she's by far the biggest like version of this. And you know, so she gets picked up by a media company and from about 2015, 2016 goes viral and. You know, it's interesting because so she's doing this because so she has to go back to like, take care of her grandma. And so she's like, opens a store and she's trying to support herself by and like her grandma by opening a store. And so the videos were like a way to promote the store. And then, you know, now she has 100 million followers and she gets adopted as this kind of like like. National Culture Ambassador, I guess by the state. Sure. And this is, you know, so there's nothing overtly political about these videos at all. Right. Which is essentially offering and like trying to sell is this, you know, this like fantasy of retreat from industrial modernity into rural life and. I think it's really easy to look at that aesthetic and go, like, this is basically fascist. Like, this is rejecting majority embrace tradition. Some people online, when they see that, immediately sees upwards, like, Oh no, it's ecofascism. Yes. Yeah, I think that. Yeah. And I think, you know, and I think, like that interpretation, I think is actually a lot of why I got picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies and then, like, sorted by the Chinese state because, you know, like having an actual positive utopian image of rural life is politically useful to them. And something that's like not really hasn't been true since, like. This is, we've had this for a long time. Yeah. Well, no, and I think I would say this, I think this thing that's different in China is there hasn't been like a positive conception of rural life really since. I I guess the great leap forwards and then argue like there were some people in the Cultural Revolution, but they actually went there and were like, oh God, this sucks. And so, you know, so they need a new one, they come up with this. But, you know, the thing that's different about China than the US is that China's market worker population like is almost the entire size of the population of the US I mean, it's like 270 million people, right? I mean it's it's enormous. And a huge number of these people, you know, these people are going from like city to city, you're like town of town, but a lot of these people are coming from rural villages into cities and. You know, I mean, these are this, this is the backbone of the Chinese workforce. Like these people like they they see their family once a year. Because, you know, like they they can't afford to go home. So they go home once a year for New Years because they get some time off and they come back and and this is where. You know, like the these videos are obvious fantasy, but, you know, they suggest an alternative to work in the capitalist city. That's sort of plausible, you know, especially if you come from rural village. And this is where this whole thing completely backfires on on the Chinese ruling class. And you know, because this, this, this, this, this caused involution discourse is about to fuse with this style of rural, rural utopianism into a movement that is going to shake the foundation of work itself. But first, but first ads again also not connecting to anything we're talking about. No connection whatsoever. Why, Garrison, don't even bring that up. There's no, there's no reason for people to think about about the fact that about that. Don't think anyway. Here's the Washington State Patrol. The Washington State Highway Patrol primary sponsors. If it could happen here, if it happens to you, you'll want the Washington State Highway Patrol fleeing over the border. It's so funny. Anyway. We tried to pull, but I think it's we're working on it, people. I think it's hilarious. Yeah. So please don't. Please don't join the Washington State Highway Patrol. Ah, we're back. And I don't know about y'all, but I I thought I knew what I was talking about. And I, after those ads, I am fully Washington State Highway Patrol pilled. I'm on board. Let's do it. In April of 2020, a guy on Chinese social media makes a post and I'm just going 2020 or 20212021. Yeah, April 2021. So yeah, I'm just going to read this post because it's kind of short and it rules. I haven't been working for two years. I have just been hanging around and I don't see anything wrong with this. Pressure mainly comes from the generation with your peers and the values of the older generation. These pressures keep oing U, but we don't have to abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and sleep in a wooden bucket. There we go. I can live like Heraclitus in a cave, thinking about logos. Since this land has never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity, I can develop one of my own lying down as my philosophical movement. Only through lying flat can humans become the measure of all things. Incredibly based. Oh my God, that's the best. I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now? Let's go. My man Diogenes is he's from this trend in Greek philosophical thought during kind of the high period of Greek civilization where a bunch of things come out of it. You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out of it. You kind of get you, you get elements of like Puritan culture from it because there a lot of them are very much anti like the. The pleasures of sex and like anything pleasing. And like, you don't, you don't do anything that feels good because then you become dependent on it, like there's a whole bunch of **** going on. And Diogenes was like one of one of the first ************* who were kind of playing around in this, in this philosophical space. And when he gets into so his early life is his dad is kind of a a grifter, it sounds like we know that he got in trouble. He and his dad got exiled for debasing currency, which could be as simple as they were watering. Down, for lack of a better term, like the gold or silver and currency with less precious metals and hiding it in order to make a profit, right? And like, keep the extra gold. That could be what they were doing. It also could have been like it could have been political because some people who were doing this in Sinope, I think is the city which is now in Turkey. We're doing it for political reasons. We don't really know why, but there's actual, documented archaeological evidence of this, including right around the time he would have been a child. We found from that. A cash of debased gold and silver coins. That had been destroyed. Someone had, like, realized they'd been debased and destroyed them so they couldn't be used. So there's evidence anyway, he and his dad get exiled, which means from an early stage he goes from being somewhat of means. If your dad's making the currency, you're not. Probably not like a poor family. And then they get kicked out of their city state, and they're like kind of stateless. And so Diogenes evolves over time and, like, gets into philosophy. He tries to, there's this. I always forget the name of the guy that he he loved it first. But there's this philosopher who's like, you know, this cynical, like, that's the the school of thought. He comes from, like a cynic that Diogenes really wants to study from. And the guy, like, assaults him as is Diogenes is like, hey, man, I want to learn from you. Like, he, like, hits him or something. This keeps happening. And eventually he's like, this guy is. Like, why do you keep doing this? And Diogenes is like, you have something I can learn from. And so I don't really care what you do to me. I'm going to, I'm going to keep persisting. And so it becomes this guy's student, yada yada. And the guy who he becomes the student of is like kind of a poser because he's talking about, like, we need to give up, you know, these kind of like pleasures of of, like civilized life and and return to a more simple time and, like, not enjoy all of these, you know, the benefits of wealth. But he, like, he's also a rich guy and he doesn't give up his money. And Diogenes is like, poor as hell. And stays that way. And so he becomes famous for, he goes to Athens and he becomes famous for a bunch of like troll **** we don't actually have. He wrote like 10 books, we don't have any of them. So we don't actually like know what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We just have stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes being a ******* troll. So like on one occasion he one of his big things was he believed that people that if if something was an acceptable behavior, it was an acceptable behavior everywhere. Right. And so the start of this was in, in Athens, you were supposed to go buy your food in the market, but you weren't supposed to eat it there. That was, like, considered rude, like, like, like, like kind of obscene almost. And Diogenes would like get food. And then and usually by begging, because he was. That was the way he got everything. He had no money. He would, like get food, and he would eat it right in the middle of the market. And everybody was like, that's disgusting. And Diogenes would be like, well, if it's OK for me to eat, it must be OK for me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took it a little bit further than that because. Yeah. I can see a few ways you could take this. He extended that to if it's fine for me to urinate or **** it's fine for me to do it anywhere, and that's fine. I have no problem. He defended himself ************ at while looking at people in public as like, you know, if this is OK for me to do in my bedroom, why can't I do this here, right? It's very like he's, he's, he's a troll, Diogenes. And he's also like, again, the stories we have of him, he is, he is like Uber, an aesthetic. So like at one point, for a long time, the only thing he owns is a wooden bowl. That's his cup and and for his food. And then according to, you know, legend, he sees this poor peasant child drinking from, like, cupped hands and he throws away his bowl and he's really angry and he's like, *** **** it, I spent all this effort carrying around something useless, like I could just put the **** in my hands. He's he's a very entertaining character and a very, like, the original eagle. The first one. Yeah. He's absolutely an eagle. And he's yeah he's just kind of like an endearing ***** ** **** is like his the idea you get, but also like smarter than. I mean because because fundamentally what Diogenes is doing is he's he's saying, like, hey, all this stuff that we think is important and good about our culture and and, like valuable. What if it wasn't? What if none of it. Yeah, he's like he's provoking the 3rd and he's he's big into like one of his his like the things he comes back to a lot is that, like, dogs are clearly happier than us and like better creatures than us. So we should just seek to be like dogs. And one of the ways he might have died is getting bitten by a dog and his bike getting infected. We don't really know how he died. The other thing about the agent is this guy ******* hates rich people. Yeah, he's he is and he's very funny about it. So Alexander the Great, Apocryphally, maybe this probably never happened, but the story is that Alexander the Great comes to Athens, you know, while he's on his his blitz through conquering the known world and finds Diogenes. And Alexander the Great was raised by Aristotle, right. So he knows his philosophy, guys like he, he's, he's he's seeking Diogenes out because he's a fan of this dude, probably through stories that were told to him in the same way that, like, I'm telling them to you now. So he, like, comes up to Diogenes. And he was like, Oh my God, I'm Alexander the Great. I'm a big fan. If I couldn't be Alexander the Great, I would want to be Diogenes. Umm and Diogenes response. Well, if I couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to be Diogenes, which is a ******* flex. Again, probably never happened. But like, I I want to read this meme that Garrison sent me because it it it, it happens. It's absolutely the perfect description of what's what this whole thing is sort of about. So, OK, this is me, the philosopher. Theogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was seen by the philosopher at another process name, Aristippus, who his lips matters, some ******* Greek myth, some guy who's about to get absolutely destroyed. He's living comfortably, like flattering the king, Aristippus says. If you would learn to be subservient to the king, you would not have to live on lentils. They always use your flied learn to live on lentils and you will not have to be subservient to the king. Oh, all sorts of base **** like that. My favorite. So our guy, our guy who works Plato is like is like trying to determine, trying to define like a human in the simplest way possible. Yes. Yeah, like the Platonic ideal. And he was. So he comes to the conclusion that, like, well, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an unwinged biped. And Diogenes supposedly goes grabs a plucked chicken and says bold a man like I found a dude. Yes, rules. He would. He would famously walk around town in broad daylight with, like, a, what do you call it? Like, a Lantern? Like, looking around and people like, what are you looking for? It's like, I'm looking for a man. He would, like, look at a dude. Like, I'm looking for a man. And as it is to say, like, none of you ************* are people like, you all think that you're human beings, but you're really just pieces of ****. He's just an amazing *******. Sorry that we should move back to Antiwork, but that's who Diogenes is and ties it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is The funny thing. Both, both, both American and Chinese. Like antiwork people both ******* love Diogenes. Absolutely. Yeah. Very popular on our slash anti work. Yeah. And and you know the, the, the thing I was reading about the like you know, learn to live on lentils and you'll never like have to subjugate by King that that's a lot of what lying down becomes so very rapidly this whole thing spreads into this like really it's like a sort of astounding, you know, it starts out of the meme and it spreads incredibly quickly and the CCP gets like really? Really mad about this. So, so it like, so this starts in April, right? And in May there's they have this like enormous media blitz where like like the, the, the, the the party is like outlet basically. And Guangdong publishes like a four page long attack on the concept of lying down, like the newspapers everywhere published this stuff like the CCP, like bands. Chat yeah, yeah. And it's funny. It's like they do this, but it's too late. Like it's already always too late. Yeah. And you know, so and so part of it lying down is, is about, you know, you have this incredibly fast-paced intense work culture, you have involution, you're working more and more and you're getting nothing out of it. And lying flat is just going no, like you just lie down. You refuse to work. But it's it's it's also it's more than that and I think this this goes back to the sort of broader conception of anti work. So one one of the the slogans of this movement is don't buy property, don't buy a car, don't get married, don't have children and don't consume. And you know, the last part of this is implied is don't work. And you know, there's a lot of sort of going on here. I mean, you have. You know, it's not just sort of a critique of, like, we work too hard. It's about, you know, it's about the sort of whole system. It's about the sort of patriarchy involved in this. It's about this sort of like, force capitalist consumption. It's about, like, you know, the fact that, like, literally 1/4 of Chinese of China's economy or Chinese GDP is like, all this real estate ******** that everyone knows is going to collapse and even when it gets built, like, sucks, thank God we don't have anything like that here. Yeah, I know. It's great. It's one of the fun things about learning. Three, you get to just watch every country do exactly the same thing with their housing market. Like, you know, Japan dream. It's like, it's great. It's just like you also. Why do you think this will work? Your fun thing is you get to watch every country. Do the same thing with farms and it always ends the same. You will latifundia anyway. Bad, yeah. So there's there's a lot of you know. In order to sort of like facilitate this, you know, you get back to the Diogenes. So a lot of it, what's happening is people sharing tips about how to like make the cheapest food you could possibly survive on so you don't have to work. And so, you know, and people, the guy who wrote the the delagnes post, like he spends $30.00 a month and he does this by only eating dried ramen and eggs. And like rice and you go, yeah, yeah, that's one way to do it. Yeah, it's a way to do it. This is like the most extreme example, actually. I don't even think about trample a lot of people, probably not. No one of things that happens. A lot of people just, like, have left their jobs to become monks. This is like a whole thing. Maybe a Buddhist? Like, honestly, why not? Like, absolutely great, like. And I used to live in a place in the middle of ******* nowhere, one of the most like isolated places I've ever lived that like had power. And one of the people who was like by neighbor, they were within several miles of us was a monastery. This is in the United States and like, I went there once because I heard they made good wine to try and get some of their wine, and like none of them would answer the door. I could see them inside all staring at me. They didn't do ****. And my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah, that seems like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah, yeah, I see why you guys have picked this life. It was also during the 2016 election. So yeah, that's back from the the RNC and the DNC and was like, yeah, that seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah. So there there's a lot of, you know, yeah, that'd be the stream example, like if people go and become monks. But like one of the things that's happening a lot is, again, you know, China has known Michael worker population and people are just like. **** this. I'm going back to my village. And so and you know and this is you know this this this this is where they really screwed up with the YouTube stuff because you know people were people you know they they they were gambling that that you know you could just sell this as an aesthetic and you know you can sell it as an aesthetic like Chinese tik T.O.K has this integrated thing in it where like if if you if you if you plug like something to buy it like you you can like click it and it'll it'll take you like to a link like to to to to the thing it's selling. Like, you know, it's so, yeah, they make an endorsement of money out of this. But you know, the, the, the, the the other side of that sword is a bunch of people were like, I don't have to work this, like I don't have to work 996 in a city. I can just go home. Yeah and you know and you know, you know, so you know, as you're talking about the anti war stuff, it's not actually possible for a lot of people to leave their jobs, so. The solution to this was, uh, there. There's a culture that developed called petting fish. Which and but but before you talk about petting fish, you said something about plugging things on Tik T.O.K and you know who you know? You know, like plugging, like advertisements. And you know who also plugs, plugs advertisements. Chris? Oh no. Is it us? It's Joe Rogan, right? Right, Joe Rogan. But our new sponsor is the Joe Rogan experience, brought to you by Honda. Honda Drive a car. Do fascism? Honda really? Yeah, Honda Garrison. Look, we don't. We're not nearly a big enough podcast to get ******* to get a Toyota ad. Are you crazy? Yeah, that's what we can dream big. Yeah, I mean, that is the dream to sell Toyotas. I mean, we could become used car salesman in the valley. All right, here's that. Alright back cut that didn't fish come on Chris handle it cut that. Keep it all in, baby. Yeah. So there's not this thing called the petting fish, which is like Chinese slack off culture. And it's, you know, most people showing tips about how to slack off at work. And it's kind of the equivalent like, yeah, I love that. It's called petting fish. And then also, like, it is good. Yeah, it's kind of the Chinese equivalent of like, boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why **** on company time. And so people do just a lot of, like, they have a lot of, like, genuinely fun things they do, like people. People started putting, like, fake beatings on their calendars. People wouldn't bother them. They like. They just like. That is all that is that. That's also what I do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the the if you want to make I I love the term petting fish as well. But if you want to like, make it sound cool, they're waging an insurgency from within capitalism. True by by by trying to take resources away from their employers without being spotted. Yeah. There's a there's a thing in volume one of capital about this that I I was like, oh, I could pull this up. And then I was like, that is too much work. I'm not going to do it. So I don't have the thing in volume one where it talks about struggling. Between about labor time, but instead you get a bunch of people like this. Like smuggling whiskey into work, taking three hour lunch breaks. My favorite one. My absolute favorite. Work. Drink at work, especially if you're a nurse. Ohh, boy, you probably killed about 50 people. This is gonna be crossed. Fingers crossed. So you know how, like companies all have these, like these really annoying, like mindfulness, fitness things. Yes. So one of these people started doing was OK. So, you know, thing like you have to drink eight hour, 8 * a day. So they they would set these alarms. That's like, oh, I have to go drink my water. And so like every like every like 50 minutes or something, they just go up and like spend 20 minutes getting water and they sit back down. It's like you've just eviscerated. It was part of your work day and the product of this, you know this CP is really ****** *** about this. And you know you get these giant billboards that say no lying flat, no petting fish on them or something would have been literally incomprehensible like a year ago. It's amazing. Yeah. And you know, and I think this is something, you know, in the US anti work, like the actual political class kind of has been ignoring it. I mean you see a couple of financial invests in China, Shi Jing Ping like made a speech. It was like he had a private speech to a bunch of people in the party and so a part of it got printed like a month ago or something. I've lost track of all time. But like specifically in this speech that she Jinping is making that is published in the CP of official, like theoretical. Until he's like explicitly saying like don't lie flat and saying, quote, happy life is earned through heart hard work. And yeah, and he also has this. He has his rants, but like denouncing welfarism. Which is great. The the communist vanguard there. Yeah, yeah. Preaching the immortal science. Yeah. Socialism with Chinese characteristics. *************. Don't be a welfare queen. Follow Xi Jinping. Thought it's great, you know, but it's interesting because people, this is the one people are really freaked out about. Like I saw, I saw like an American writer about this who, you know, they they wrote like an article about this whole thing and then they were like, this is going to this is going to cause inflation. It's like, this is gonna be the driver of of 20% inflation. Like what? You just use the word inflation to mean whatever scary thing they want. Yeah, well, they're like, oh, this will this will increase wages and that will lead to inflation. We'll get the 70s again. And I'm like. God. Maybe we'll get a tallow disco again that you ever think of that guy? Good God that we that we are reserves of Italo disco are critically low. So, Garrison, do you know what a talo disco is? No idea. That's a shame. Alright, let's continue. What what type of like is there? Is there like any, like you said, this kind of stuff started to like, move leftwards. Is there any, like actual, like leftist organizing in these types of places? So. So this is the thing I was getting to, which is that, like, you know, people are starting to do reading groups. But the problem, the problem with leftist organizing in China is that. You know, so state policy in the past three years has been like if you poke your head above ground, you get a mint mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. 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Behind my name is Erica Kelly, and I am the host and creator of Southern Freight True crime. There are so many people that just have no idea about some injustices in the world, and if you can give a voice to them, you can create change to be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with Spreaker that I was making enough. That I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always feel like an ambassador for speaker, but that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. Spreaker.com get paid to talk about the things you love with spreaker from iheart. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. His unspeakable crimes and the incompetence or unwillingness of the police to stop him brought the entire country of Belgium to the brink of revolution. From Tenderfoot TV in iHeartRadio this is la Monstra. A story of abomination and conspiracy that led to the demise of the entire institution of Belgian federal police and rattled the foundations of its government. The story about the man who simply become known as Le Monstre. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Rested. So, you know, in in 2018, for example, there was there was a strike at Jasic and, you know, a bunch of student groups who've been organizing for a long time, like, tried to do solidarity with it, and they all got arrested. The people who are the people who let the strike got arrested. All the students were doing all day got arrested. People, like, people got arrested for like, like, dancing with, like, university students got arrested for like, dancing with the people who are, like, cleaning the floors. Yeah, so yeah, that's a little bleak. The emotional science expression. Yeah. Like, it's it's incredible. And like, you know, and the other thing you can see about this is so, so for example, there was, there was a guy doing like delivery driver organizing. It was kind of weird. He was like kind of an entrepreneur kind of doing delivery driver organizing. Like he got arrested and then, you know, like a couple weeks later, the CP was like, oh, we're going to like do things to improve the conditions of of of delivery drivers. And, you know, who knows if that's going to happen. But like, you know, basically like any anyone out. For some reason the the people in the tech sector have been able to get away with more. For reasons that are probably class based and I think this is take them seriously in the way that they do with students, factory workers. Yeah. But you know, and actually I mean the fact that the tech workers like kind of recently, like there's a tech worker thing calling for like like democratic control of production, which is wild, but other than those guys like you can't, you know, you can't stick your head up, you get flattened. So this has sort of been the result of this, which is this like. You know, the, the, the sort of the like lying flat is this, it's, you know, it's this master centralized movement that you know there's there's no one to hit with a hammer. And you know and and I think like OK, so one of the other quotes that's been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem. It doesn't. Poem as well in English, but you know this. This is the best we've got. Lying flat is to not bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine. And so, you know, what was basically happening here is, is it's a combination of of the tendencies you see in the US where, you know, a bunch of people, terrible jobs, realizing that everything's pointless. And then also, this is a way you can like. This is a way you can, like, fight your boss without, like, the police showing up. Yeah. And so there's some interesting like. Political stuff. So there there's, there's, there's, there's, there's. If you look at documents, there's a bunch of memes here because they're great. So there's been a thing with these people talking about how people are leaks, which are like, they're leaks. They're harvested over and over again and they're being exploited. And like, the plants. Yes. Like, yeah, you eat. And so they have this thing. It's a leaks that lie flat cannot be so easily harvested. And it's just like a knife go like, like, like a machete, like trying to swing it a bunch of leaks, but leaks are flat so they can't hit and see what I see what you did. I like all of this. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's it's you know, and so and so the product of this is that. Yeah, like, this, this, this has this stuff has actually been effective enough that the CCP's like, you know, I mean, the CP is is taking it seriously. But, you know, there's not much they can do about it because like, if if if someone's just like, oh, I'm, I'm going to go from a job that's really high stress to one that's less high stress, like, what you gonna are you just going to arrest them? Like, what? What are you going to do? And so this, yeah, this, this has been building for a while now. And I don't know who knows exactly like where it's going to go, but it's it's it's already, you know, it's something that people can do as an individual in a place where organized political action is impossible in a way such that, you know, that their individual actions have a collective effect, but one that can't be just, you know, pounded down. Yeah. I mean, it is certainly interesting to see. Two completely separate like anti work style movements around basically around the same same exact time with the same exact points if you're in totally different languages, right? If you're someone who's interested in massive global revolutionary change, this should probably be a thing that you are looking at and studying and thinking a lot about. Because perhaps while we're arguing about **** that people started talking about in the 1870s, this this might be a better thing to do than than that. Because, because it's seems like there's some potential here. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I mean, you know, if if, if you, if you know any, any, any, any actual revolutionary project that makes the world better is going to have to be international. And that's been, you know, that, that, that, that. That's been the bane of all revolutionary movements. Forever. But you know, OK, so we have, you know, we we we have something that Chinese the American working class agrees on, which is Diogenes is based in work sucks. Yeah. Yeah. So as you go forward into your life this week, take a page from diagenesis, his book, and go **** on people, **** on the floor of a free people or yeah, a free people are in H&M. Go walk into one and just just just go. Absolutely ruin that tile. I mean, **** it. This is why my, my, my biggest political advice to friends who has always been learned to run fast. Because if you learn to run fast, you could do so many more fun things, all politics in a store and then run fast and it's done right. The problem is, is that a lot of people like who want to do this can't run fast enough, and you have to learn to run fast and do this. There we go. It's like Mao said, all political power. Comes from being able to **** really fast and from the doors of a free people. Just get the hell out of there. The immortal side. Look, I think, I think, I think we should leave with with the, the, the, the, the, the the real immortal science the the immortal words of a skeleton from the share zone. Just walk out. You can leave work, social things, movie, home class, dentist clothes shops too fancy weed store cops if you're quick. Friendships. If it sucks, hit the bricks. Yeah, yeah. As as some comedian who I can't remember now said, always have an exit plan like that, that that should be your thought for everything. Everything in the world. Hit the ******* bricks. Get out anyway. Get out of this podcast episode now. From cavalry audio comes the new True crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. Wanted to know what it felt like to kill somebody, and he started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer servant, picking up these girls, getting him in a position of vulnerability. When he got ahold of their neck. That was it. I'm Carolyn Ossorio, a journalist and lifelong resident of the Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the banks of the Green River and in the shadow of the killer that bears its name. How many times did you bring the camera to? One time. Fantasizing about having sex with his mother. Then he fantasized about killing her. But this podcast isn't only about tracking down the killer. It's about the victims. We stayed in the woods. He always liked to go into the woods. She was just. Kind of strange. You know how he feels about prostitutes. Listen to the shadow girls on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us your attention. We need everything you got fast waiting on reparations. We'd be the endless podcast TuneIn every Thursday. Politics and word play. We fight for the people because they got us in the worst way, from the hill to Brazil, Bombay to Kanye from the left enclave to what the Neo cons say every Thursday. Copped the heady conversation and break us off with some bread cause we waiting on reparations. Listen to waiting on reparations on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to it could happen here podcast about things falling apart from what you could do about it. My name is Christopher Wong, and today I'm going to be talking about sabotage, but this is not the episode on sabotage that you expect. I will not be discussing, for example, the destruction of machinery, throwing monkey wrenches, slow down strikes, or the myriad of other tactics that workers have used since time immemorial to strike back at their bosses. No, instead I'm going to be talking about a far more common and infinitely more dangerous form of sabotage. Corporate sabotage? Now, the most conspicuous form of corporate sabotage is the mass destruction of corporations own products. The fashion company Burberry, for example, destroyed $370 million of its own product in one year alone. Louis Vuitton and Chanel also systematically destroyed their own sold stock every year, joining H&M and literally lighting their own sold products on fire in order to prevent anyone from using them, quote Business Insider Richemont, the owner of Cuddlier Montblanc, destroyed more than 400 million. Pounds of watches over a two year. After an excess in goods in the Asian markets. Nike has also admitted that a New York store slashed unsold traders before throwing them away, and last year an Urban Outfitters employee said he was instructed to pour green paints on the unsold stock. These, of course, are only the stories that have made it into the press, and this behavior is by no means limited to high fashion grocery stores routinely throw away enormous quantities of unsold goods, and when communities realized they could feed people. Need by taking the still good products from grocery store dumpsters, the stories began to destroy their food intentionally. But these acts of destruction, as callous and horrifically greedy as they are, are by no means the extent of corporate sabotage. To explain, I turned to the work of the Economist Thorstein Veblen. Veblen is perhaps best known today for the theory of conspicuous consumption. But he wrote extensively on corporate sabotage. In the first part of the engineers and the price system, a work that has been broadly ignored even by his followers, Febrian wrote a section called on the Nature and uses of sabotage. From that work, writers and speakers who dilate on the militaries exploits of the nation's businessmen will not commonly allude to this voluminous running administration of sabotage, this conscientious withdrawal of efficiency that goes into their ordinary day's work. We are not used to thinking of the ordinary work of a corporation being sabotaged. But for Veblen, there was no other explanation for what he was seeing in the wake of World War One. There was an enormous explosion in unemployment, an enormous need on behalf of the population. But even as the unemployed begged to be let in to create the products that could build the needs of their fellow humans, business owners steadfastly refused to open their factories. This Veblen explained. But for reasons of business expediency, it is impossible to let these idle plants and idle workmen go to work, that is to say for reasons of insufficient profit. The businessmen interested, or in other words for reasons of insufficient income, to the vested interests which control the staple industries and so regulate the output of product. Fabian was not alone in observing these or similar conditions. John Maynard Keynes, writing during the depression, observed nearly precisely the same thing. For canes, the solution simply was to have the government step in to increase demand. But for Veblen dismissed the core of the problem. The real problem was at a core of absentee owners had the ability to shut down the factories in the 1st place by simple virtue of their ownership, this feline argued, was simply sabotage, no different from the hated strikes of the IWW. That's so racked and perturbed the capitalist ruling class of his time, at least the workers could argue that they were simply fighting for a better share of what they had created. Absentee owners, on the other hand, who had no actual involvement in the production process whatsoever. Simply carried out sabotage on an enormous scale in order to secure their own returns. And this was true even in times they weren't marked by massive depressions. In order to make payments to capitalists, Veblen argued, who expect a certain rate of return on their investment, corporations must maintain prices at such a level that they can meet their returns, and the only way they could do this is sabotage. For the good of business, it is necessary to curtail production of the means of life on pain of unprofitable prices, at the same time that the increasing need of all sorts of necessities of life must be met in some passable fashion on pain. Popular disturbances, as will always come of popular distress. When they passed a little bit of tolerance, this sabotage Fibonacci was simply a product of the price system. Any production that was too efficient would simply and inevitably be sabotaged for private gain, because in order to maintain prices that would maintain the returns of investors, it was necessary to ensure that production never became too efficient to produce too many goods. Fabulon news as his example, the 20th century post office. But we could just as easily point to Trump sabotaging the post office in 2020. In a dual bid to privatize the service by causing it to collapse and prevent mail in votes from being counted as part of his attempts to win the 2020 election in their book capitalist power, economist Shimshon Bichler and Jonathan Nitzan take Peplin's argument and expand on it. Noting that capitalism, far from encouraging productivity writ large, makes things inefficient on purpose, they used the example of public transportation, which is by essentially any measure, a significantly more efficient way of moving people around the US. As an example, in EU and lateen Forties, 100 electric rail lines were bought and destroyed by car companies. Those same companies likewise twice destroyed incredibly efficient and popular electric cars, once in the 1930s and again in the 1980s because the profit rate was lower than that of gas cars. They then set out to cause everyone to forget that they've actually done this, until Elon Musk figured out a way to sell electric cars that was profitable, namely by selling himself as a brand, not the cars themselves. Now, if capitalism was simply destroying its own products in order to create Elon Musks, you could argue that the system at least produced advancements before it stopped them. But the most violent forms of sabotage are reserved for productive systems that are simultaneously efficient and outside of capitalist control together. Perhaps the best known example of this is the East British East India companies, the industrialization of the Indian textile industry. Not to be outmatched by the British forbearers, American settlers and their allies in the American military exterminated the Buffalo herds of the Great Plains. In an attempt to starve out the indigenous tribes that lived there. In doing so, the destroyed enormously productive and sustainable agricultural system. They did so precisely because the system was efficient. So efficient, in fact, that it allowed indigenous tribes to repeatedly defeat the American Army in defense of their lands. We are used to thinking of capitalism as a system of production. But here, amidst the fields of Buffalo corpses, is something else entirely, capitalism appearing in its true form a system of organized sabotage. To fully untangle what this means, let us return to Veblen. Veblen divided capitalism into two separate processes, the first he called industry. Industry, Veblen argued, has existed long before capitalism and will continue to exist long after. It has been clear in Nietzsche put it quote. When considered an isolation from contemporary business institutions, the principal goal of industry, its raison d'etre, according to Veblen, is the efficient production of quality goods and services for the betterment of human life. Industry is an inherently collective undertaking. Its basis is cooperation and integration, the creation of communal knowledge that allows production and scientific advance to occur, and coordination and cooperation between people to create things for each other. Left to its own devices, industry would simply produce goods for people. It has no concern for profitability, rates of returns, or capitalization. Unfortunately, capitalism is defined by private ownership. This is what Veblen calls business. Business is a system of power that extracts wealth from industry by means of sabotage. Production to serve human need. The basis of industry is useless to business unless it can be turned into a revenue stream. It does this by taking control of industry and its products and then restricting access to it, particularly in each input. It the most important feature of private ownership is not that it enables those who own, but that it disables those who do not. Technically, anyone can get in someone else's car and drive away or give an order to sell all of Warren Buffett shares in Berkshire Hathaway. The purpose of private ownership is wholly and only an institution of exclusion, and institutional exclusion is a matter of organized power. As we can see from the genocide on the plans, this power is no abstract force. Weblin tends to focus on the power of absentee owners to stop production, and for good reason. But business stands in the way of industry, and will immediate ways too. After all, the purpose of cooperative industry is to make goods to improve our lives. And yet in between us. And the proceeds that industry creates, the server needs. There is a cash register and a cop. Even the creators of a Louis Vuitton bag. Or, for that matter, a tomato. Have no claim on it once business takes over, and business would rather destroy it than see it fall into their hands. The famous Russian anarchist theorist Peter Karpathian was writing along similar lines to Veblen just a few years before. Veblen, it seems, have been exposed to anarchist ideas through association with the industrial workers of the world. In the early 1900s, it was not altogether unusual for economists to move in radical circles. The Great Italian economist Irro Sraffa smuggled pens and papers to Antonio Gramsci, while Gramsci, the head of the Italian Communist Party, was a prisoner of the Italian fascist regime. Rafa would later extract the writings that. Crumps you had written in prison? Unleashing crunchies prison notebooks onto the world. But Veblen was unique even among these economists for the extent that he incorporated radical theories directly into his work. As you've seen, which is adoption of sabotage. That's a way of thinking about capitalism. This led Veblen to call the end of the system of what he described as vested interests in absentee owners fibulin solution, however, which he described as a quote Soviet if technicians that would manage production for all society. Leaves a lot to be desired for, so let us return to the source here script hodkin in the conquest of bread. The minds so they represent the labour of several generations and derive their sole value from the requirements of the industry of a nation and the density of the population. The minds also belong to the few, and these few restrict the output of coal, or prevent it entirely if they find more profitable investments for their capital. Machinery, too, has become the exclusive property of the few, and even when a machine incontestably represents an improvements added to the original rough invention by three or four generations of workers, it nonetheless belongs to a few owners and if the descendants of the very inventor who constructed. The first machine for lace building a century ago where to present themselves today at a lace factory in Bale or Nottingham and demand their rights. They would be told hands off this machine is not yours and they would be shot down if they attempted to take possession of it. Here we see the competition between two different kinds of rights, on the one hand, the right of industry, the right of creativity. The right of those who produce and care for each other to be able to determine where the proceeds of their labor go. From industries point of view, this is to each other, to those in need, and to society as a whole. On the other hand, there is the right of property, the right of men with guns to throw oysters into the ocean because it's not profitable for anyone to eat them. Capitalism has developed a myriad of iterations, precisely the same principle. And the world is now infested by them. Patent trolls haunt the already fraught waters, ventilla actual property, buying up patents for cheap or, on rare occasions, creating something themselves for the sole purpose. Or preventing anyone else from using it, making money by suing anyone who dares try. Large corporations, of course, do precisely the same thing. See for example, Disney War and the concepts of anything, anything at all, falling into the public domain, the sabotage. And on this all four of our interlocutors, Veblen, Kropotkin clarinets, and agree as long as private ownership exists because sabotage is all private ownership really is. But it is not simply. Enough to answer corporate sabotage with their own sabotage. As Veblen pointed out, this is simply the ordinary state of affairs under capitalism. For Cappoquin, the answer was simple. This rich endowments, painfully won, builded, fashioned or invented by our ancestors, must become common properties. What the collective interest of men may gain, forbid, the greatest good for all. There must be expropriation, the well-being of all, the end expropriation, the means. How precisely to go about doing such a thing has been the subject of endless debate for nearly 200 years, and I am not arrogant enough to propose to solve the problem here, but a system where a company can. Prevent even the US government from attempting to produce ventilators by simply buying up the company that won the contract and refusing to fill the order to maintain the value of the ventilators it was already producing is a system based on nothing less than ensuring that people will die four or 5% rate of return. If we are to have any hope of stopping the ravages that climate change promises for our future, we cannot afford to be sabotaged at every step. Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen here as a production of cool zone media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources for. It could happen here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia.com/sources. Thanks for listening. Conquer your New Year's resolutions with the Before Breakfast podcast and each bite sized. Early episode you'll learn how to make the most of your time with practical tools to help you feel less busy and get more done. Listen to before breakfast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up guys? 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