Behind the Bastards

There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.

Does Punching Nazis Work? A Conversation From Unite The Right 2.0

Does Punching Nazis Work? A Conversation From Unite The Right 2.0

Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:00

Does Punching Nazis Work? A Conversation From Unite The Right 2.0

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My name is Alex Fumero and I host the new podcast more than a movie, American Me, a film directed by and starring Edward James Olmos. I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy, including an alleged backlash from the Mexican mafia. Several people who worked on the movie have been murdered. I don't want to speak about why would people be murdered for being in a movie. Listen to more than a movie, American me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kapal Tojo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books through your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Danny Shapiro, host of family secrets. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of family secrets. With over 25 million downloads, the importance of both telling and hearing secrets is apparent, and I am so excited to share 10 astonishing news stories with you. This is our best season yet. Listen and subscribe to family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again, behind the ******** the show where we tell you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all of history. Now, normally, at least, that's what the show is about. But this week we're talking about, you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis, the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America right now and who in fact were marching in the streets of Washington DC just a few minutes before. This podcast was recorded in part one of this episode. Dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed since Charlottesville and in this episode we're going to be talking about what we saw at the Unite the right 2.0 rally and more to the point, we're going to be trying to answer the question is it a good idea to punch Nazis now first I should say nobody that we're going to be talking with today punched a Nazi today's rally. It went pretty much as well as these sort of things can go, but it's it's still a question I think is worth debating if you spend any amount of time online in anti fascist activist circles, you will come across. This Hitler quote probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched in the face, the quote, as it is usually displayed, reads. Only one thing could have stopped our movement if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality of the nucleus of our new movement. And that's an Adolf Hitler quote. And Hitler did say those words, but he did not say exactly those quotes in that order, as is usually the case with online quotes attributed to any sort of. Famous person. It's a little bit wrong, so I'm going to read the actual Hitler quote, which is given during a speech in 1933. Only one danger could have jeopardized this development if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas and not offered any resistance. Or alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement. So you see the difference there. And the quote that's usually spread around online, it says Hitler was basically saying the only thing that could have stopped us was if people had beat us up. On the streets. During our rise to power, the actual quote is Hitler was saying two things. We could have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in the streets or if people had very clearly and very cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted and made it clear to everyone what our goals were and what our plans were. That could have stopped us too, especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more multifaceted than is usually presented, and so the question of whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis. Is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists like to feel. And I say this is someone who has just done some anti Nazi activism. So I'm not inherently against the idea of hitting these people either. It's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple of things we need to keep in mind before we get into our discussion. One of them is that in the 1920s and 30s in Germany during the rise of the Nazi Party, there were constant riots and running St battles all the all across Weimar Germany. And in the mid 1920s when this was all going on, Berlin was known as the Redis. City in Europe as we talked about on our non Nazi ******** episode. Berlin was if you were gay, if you were trans, if you were progressive. Maybe the best city in the world to live in and it was very much not a friendly place for Nazis. The the rally we were just at had 50 or so Nazi activists or less and several thousand anti Nazi activists and it wouldn't have been very different in Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Now the guy that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis. First started trying to make inroads into the reddest city in Europe was Joseph gerbils. Gerbils put in charge of the Berlin's Nazi branch, and his whole strategy when he gained that position was to send his very few Berlin Nazis directly into leftist controlled junction chunks of the city. Now gerbils's Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists, with communist activists, with leftist activists, and there would be St battles. And the Nazis lost a lot of these St battles. They lost a lot of people. Some of them were killed. But the violence that this incurred helped inspire conservatives within the German Government to be afraid of the anti Nazi activists. So it's not, it's not clear that fighting Nazis in Berlin helped stop them. Political moderates were alienated by the violence and since they were closer to the far right Nazis than the far left anti fascists, well the Conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler. And that's more or less what happened. That was the Nazis plan from the beginning and it worked out. So the question of what's to be done? About these Nazis as complicated, can violence make racists afraid again, or does it only help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally, the fascists went in looking for conflict, and today's rally, it was a different matter. And today I'm going to be talking with a roundtable of people that I attended this protest with, and we're going to try to get to the bottom of whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis. And we'll also be talking about what we saw and how we feel about the day. So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time dilation between what the users. For listeners listening are gonna hear and what has happened in the conversation. So from y'all's perspective, I just finished reading the speech about whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis. And from our perspective, we've been drinking for 90 minutes or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day. So the listener should be aware that nobody is sober in this situation and that now we're going to talk about whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in DC so. Let's, uh, let's go around the room and introduce our our talkers about their Nazi yellow Nat experiences. That was good. That was a good lie. Yeah, I feel good about that. Well, one of the things that we saw early on, give me your name. My name is Hanna Ettinger. Was on the last episode over and my podcast is Kitchen Table Cult. I host that with Kieran Dark Water. So one of the things that happened early on this morning was at the Foggy Bottom metro station right after the Nazis got off the train. There were about 30 or so of them, maybe less. There was this really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent. Or something. He was. He was like, he was like an aging punk or something. Yeah. And he was calling them, you ******* over and over. And he left over the cops to try to like, I don't know, express his rage. And he had a fight and then he like fell into the. He fell into the bike and they were shoving him and the cops hit him and he got kicked. He got kicked. It was rough. I tried to get on video and I missed it, but whoever you are. You're our hero of the day, and this podcast is dedicated to you. Yeah, random British guy who who did one of the best leaps over a line of cops I've ever seen to try to punch a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land on Visa V hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're a hero, and I want that to be clear to everybody that I'm. I think that man is a hero should I ever run into you again. I'm not sure if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts, but if I should ever run into you again, I will buy you a beer. Perhaps several beers, please. Give us a shout out. We'd like to buy you a beer. All right, Nick, you should choose yourself. I am Nick wood. I am a former marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer and I've also science fiction writer. And I'm kind of on the team. Punch Nazis until they can't see. Oh my name is Laura. Mario. It's my first protest ever. In life. So I'm, I'm, I'm overwhelmed with different feelings and emotions right now, or what I saw and how I felt. But punching, not Nazis, is definitely something I did not I felt at one point, but then it gradually went away as as the protests. What are you feeling right now? Oh man, I don't know. I can't believe it. People are are still out here doing things that our mother told me about. You know, I'm sealed fighting the fight that my grandmother and grandfather was fighting for many years ago. Feel like we settled this twice. Twice. Like how many ******* times do we have to keep kicking the **** out of the ******* Nazis? But alright, well, kind of the way I feel, you know, you're talking about how the, you know, Hillary was saying that I either. People being very like intellectual about it and very cogent, like understanding that these guys are evil ******* and then just like not fighting them or them getting the absolute ever loving **** kicked out of them. Like I'm kind of on Team, kicked the **** out of the Nazis because, you know, they want to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence. But The thing is, I think that the only way for that to be effective is for. It would have. It's more effective when like the town kicks the **** out of the Nazis and not a team of anti fascists kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's like 25 Antifa fighting 25 Nazis or whatever is going on or what, you know, there's obviously the odds change. But like when it's a small group of Antifa fighting the Nazis, then you can you can be like, well there's good or bad people on both sides or people can be like, well I'm violence is never the answer. But when the entire town of, you know, Washington DC gets up and, like, kicks the **** out of all of the Nazis, what that says is don't come to Washington DC if you're a ******* Nazi. And I I think that's true. One of the things that unsettles me a little bit about demonstrations like this, and I think is a legitimate risk to avoid, is that. The police are there and I'm sure I know that because one of the police officers who was photographed on duty today has Nazi ish tattoos and has been photographed cosplaying as a Nazi. So I'm sure some of these guys are sympathetic to the Nazis, but most of them aren't. There were a lot of black officers, there were a lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why would they be? There's nothing in that ideology for them, but the nature of a protest and the nature of the police protecting this tiny number of protesters. A much larger number of counter protesters means that the police become the opposing force and I don't know how to fix that, but I don't think that's a healthy development because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist trying to get at the fascists. It should be as you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like. And maybe that's a a free speech thing. Maybe we need to say that. You know you have freedom of speech, but you have the freedom of speech to yell fire in a crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech. You don't have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing. And maybe we don't give these people a platform to speak so the police aren't putting a situation where they're protecting them so that we don't have anti fascists yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly it can be done better than it's being done. That I think that kind of on that topic one of the things that would help. It's basically so to preface this, we have seen multiple situations where the cops go a little off script and **** ** the counter protesters. We saw that **** in Portland where a cop fired tear gas grenade at the back of somebody's head and we've got pictures of the cops after that happened and critically the back of his head. They're grinning like they're like, this is ******* cool, yeah, and The thing is. That happens to anti fascists and Black Lives Matter and anyone fighting these ********. Net all the time the cops will **** ** the people fighting the Nazis or the racists or whoever, whatever ******* ******** out there. But we don't ever, ever see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing with the Nazis, when it comes to protecting the ******* Nazis. And I understand that they have their orders and I understand that their job is there to protect the Nazis, but. What the thing that really needs to happen if the cops don't want to be the bad guys here, if they don't like hearing those chants at the protest of who do you protect? Who do you serve? Like, they got real mad when they heard that one. And I mean, I just, I like that, but. They if they don't want to hear those protests then they need to be just as willing to occasionally break the rules and **** ** the Nazis, or let the Nazis get ****** ** as they are to **** ** the counter protesters. It's like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protecting the Nazis and the anti fascists like they need to be either. Either that either they need to be utterly impartial mediators in this situation which they are not, or. They need to let the knots get ****** ** sometimes so the Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side. One of the things that is really telling about that observation is you you know who is vulnerable and who is not in that situation, the ones that the police are not going to. Break the rules. Around are the people who have the actual power. When the police are willing to break the rules, they know they're not going to have consequences for it because the people that they are breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in this situation. So like with the situation in Portland. The anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here and the fact that the Nazis got a metro car of their own today shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message. Think. So this is one of the things that scares me is I am very sympathetic to the anti fascists, I'm very sympathetic to activists today when there are chants like. You know who, who do you protect or when there are a chance to **** the police. I understand the motivation because the police in this country, I think if you're a reasonably well informed person, you understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country. There's issues with how it goes down the fascist activists. Unless these activists than other activists have been very good at getting the police on their side. And there are, there's evidence of this fact in March 13th, the Homeland Security. Analyst in an e-mail to local law enforcement in Tennessee noted that the traditional Workers Party which is one of the groups that was behind the first unite the right protest quote typically is not the issue but rather opposing groups and April police in Georgia and this is April of 2017. Police enjoyed your revealed they planned for mass violence at a local rally based on rumors that were spread by a far right wing 3 Percenter which is like a militia group Facebook account that was claiming that there would be 12,000 anti fascists at the party. Or at the the protest and that they would be looting and rioting and whatnot. The police trust these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists. And I'm sure some of that has to do with the fact that a lot of police officers or a number of police officers have biases of their own. But some of us do with the fact that all of the racists at these rallies are nice to the police and all the anti fascists are yelling at them. And I'm not trying to be like feel sorry for the police or whatever because that is not my my concern, but there are some. Concerns to keep in mind, including the fact that California police in a variety of counties have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists. There was one case of a fascist activist who had been arrested on domestic violence charge and the police, rather than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists based on their pictures and then assured him we're not looking at you as a perpetrator, we're looking at you. As a victim there was a fascist that they were questioning, yeah, a fascist they were questioning. So it is clear that their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective and. Again, not to defend the police, but if you're just getting yelled at by these people all day long, I can see why. The tiny group of folks who are being polite to you why that might be more compelling. And this is not a right or wrong issue. This is purely a tactical issue of what is more effective. And I do feel like the anti fascist side of the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to let them know we're not happy with how the situation is going down, but we are not angry at you, we're trying to get to them. I I don't know what the right you're really walking a fine line there with tone policing. So sure, it's a, it's a it's a it's a very valid concern and it's a very real recommendation because it is effective, but it also it is the sort of thing that like, yes, this anger is justified like like like attracts like. I have a couple of thoughts here that relate to the how this stuff interplays with activists and race so. I think that. You're not wrong and that in a completely sterile environment you know these ideal physics experiments environments. I would, I would be like, I would say you're probably right that that they they need to court the police and get them like to see the the anti fascist is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff. Because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths then they would they would go along with that. But I think it's kind of, it ends up being another one of the things that's very different when you are talking with mostly white people, when you're talking mostly black people. I feel the same way. The argument as to whether or not to employ violence. Because. For black people, the police are a threat to our ******* existence most of the time. I grew up with cops. My dad was a cop. I grew up around cops. I used to feel safe around cops, and that was entirely incorrect then. Like, they are not here for us. They are dangerous to us. All the time. So The thing is that, like the fact that they're dangerous to us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different to me than like every day. So like I don't care that they're against me because they're always against me. I could get shot because they thought my phone looked suspicious, however. When anti fascist groups are primarily white, or when they're in places like Portland or when they're in like they're in their places where most of the anti fascists are white and the cops are probably white and all this other ****. Like, I kind of have a little more of that idea that, you know, maybe the white anti fascist should like get in good with the police because The thing is, their relationship with the police is different. And it kind of relates to the way I feel about the argument about whether or not people should employ violence. It is all well and good for white activists to talk to each other about whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent rhetoric of the Nazis is by and large not aimed at them. So if there's a way that the that mostly white people in this country, that is mostly white people. Or at least a majority white people could get together and find a way to fight back against this and push back and change the world without violence, then do it. But. Understand that for the rest of us, this is never not been a fight to the death. It's just a slow fight to the death. And I I think that's a like basic like entry level requirement for understanding to like quote UN quote be a good ally is to get that piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what they discussed about like, who's arrestable? Yeah, well, that was that was a standing rock thing. I don't know because I'm not Privy to Antifa. It's been tough to catch, to catch the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there were a number of posters around this saying are you are, are you arrestable sign up for a variety of events. Because a lot of the Native American activists or indigenous American activists who were active at that event had been arrested in number of times already. And if they were arrested anymore, they already had pending court cases. They could not continue to be in the front lines dealing with the police. And so they were asking for, there were a lot of it. Standing rock, Young, white, mostly. Early 20s or late teens, activists who had showed up, these were people who could stand to have a couple of arrests on their record. It wouldn't **** their lives up. And so they were saying essentially, use your privilege as a middle class white kid because it's not going to be bad for you if you get arrested. So stand in the front of the line, be in the front of these actions that we're doing to try to delay the construction of this pipeline. I don't know if that's part of Antifas strategy because I've not been. Actually, I was very right after the inauguration. I was very interested in things like. Black block tactics and the groups like that. One of the things when I was looking into black, one of the things they were saying was people doing black bloc tactics need to be white and probably men. Because white dudes can get away with ******* anything. And like, if someone's got to run in and punch the Nazis and get in there and push the police around and break windows and set **** on fire because, you know, kinetic disturbance is part of what runs revolution. Like, make it, the white people do it. And so, like, I didn't get involved in Black bloc because I knew that if I were a. It might have been bad for my wife and her career, but, like, but be like, if I got involved with black, yeah, it might be fun for me, but like you know, might be satisfying for me. But the very first time I ran into the police, I run the risk of being killed or imprisoned or just like a bunch of real bad **** happening to me and I don't. I have my life affects other people's lives. And if it were just about, if I were single and unattached, I'd be doing that **** all day. But I don't get. To do that because I have to care about other people. Yeah, right. So if the consequences for you as a human are low, punch Nazis, but if you are in a place where you do not have the privilege of being able to afford. That risk. There are other ways you can be smart to resist. There is an additional dimension to it, which is that. You have to consider it's not just OK, it's punching Nazis safe for you. Because if if if punching Nazis were always good and punching Nazis was safe for you, then if it's safe for you to punch a Nazi, punch a Nazi. But there's an optics battle that is being fought. There's a battle larger than the sympathy of the police, the sympathy of the nation where people stand. And that is it is specifically the sympathy of white people. Well, yeah, I mean, yes, for damn sure what I was talking about this morning when we were recording about how. Like campaigning with for Northam and door knocking and like hearing like moderates talking about, yeah, this Charlottesville was ugly and these people are inciting violence, so we're going to vote against them. We're going to vote for the Dems. And so that's another thing is like, yeah, we have to be aware of the optics of this and like, are we inciting violence? Are we, like going low when they go low or are we going high? Like are we meeting them at their level? And giving them the terms of the debate and are are we giving the Nazis what they want? Right. Because I I think that's a valid question to ask and I there are a number of quotes from and again in the first part of this I read through a lot of their conversations. So we we do know a lot of things that they've said. We know for one that they're embarrassed at the idea of being outnumbered and being needed to be protected by the police. I found this conversation in a yeah and again there were at least a couple of 1000 anti fascist activists and don't you find it interesting that the cops were not? Protecting any anti fascist protesters that when you saw much larger numbers of anti fascist protesters marching in the streets they the cops were nowhere to be found. But when it's 12 Nazis cops all around them securing them for sure. Nazis got like a double row of cops protecting them from protesters. And then when Pakistan, yeah and then when and then when a crowd of anti fascist protesters gathered around to yell at them. We got surrounded by three more rows of cops on the backside of our group. They started, like, sneaking up on us and it wasn't they weren't protecting us. So yeah, I do think the question now that when people, I think the larger question of how we treat police folks on the left treat police is fine. But the question of who do you protect? Like why is that? Why is it that a handful of Nazis get so, so much taxpayer money in terms of protection, but by police and that. You know, 1020 times the amount of anti fascist protesters getting nothing because the system is designed to support them. I mean, I I don't want to say it, but doesn't it seem that way? It does. And I and again, I wanna make it clear, no, none of what I'm saying is a moral argument in favor of the police, because I'm not. And none of it is a moral argument favored the tactics. What I'm asking is or I'm in favor of the the fascist. What I'm asking is, is it an effective tactic to punch Nazis? Does it bring us closer to our goal of they're not being Nazis? Well, here's another wrinkle, you know, because we want to make, you know, in a lot of ways it's good to make historical comparisons between what's happening now. And what happened in Germany? Because, holy **** it's very fun. We're following, following the playbook like episode. There are even instances where people made quotes that, like, if you said, did this someone say this in Weimar Germany or 2018, you know, like America 2018, you're like, the sweet article goes, please, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of value to that. But here's one of the ways in which it's different. The Nazis in Vimar Germany were actually tough *******. Yeah. They've all survived the trenches in World War One, which is probably the worst combat human beings have lived through. Yes. Yes. So when, so when fighting them in the streets, you know, if you're not in a situation where everyone's fighting in the streets, when it's just like anti fascist and fascist fighting and both sides are equally dangerous and both sides are equally competent and they're both, they're they're all, I mean, to some extent it's kind of like when the punks fight. The skinheads, like both of those groups of people, are well used to beating the **** out of each other. That might not be very effective because if you punch a Nazi who's used to getting punched, he's just like, OK, I got punched today. Sweet. Then like, write that down if he's a proud boy, but he probably isn't. And and that's kind of punched while waving cereals, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, you obviously can't get your nose broken if you're naming cereals because they are all doing bodies. And that's kind of the place where I kind of find a little bit of a wrinkle in that. And when talking about that because we like optics is a definite discussion, but also the morale of. OK, I think of things as like in tactical sense, the ones are right, they are my enemies, so I think of them like so the enemies morale is important because breaking the enemies Morales how you win, it's not actually about destroying them necessarily, it's about making them never want to fight you again. And with a lot of these ******* they they don't know how to fight. They don't, they're not, they're not Nazis in the sense that the Nazis in line are Germany, where they aren't tough ********. They're larpers scary at that rally exactly. They're larpers and so like. When they're afraid of being outnumbered and terrified, we need to lean into that because one of the problems is that, like, would it be great if there was like a Women's March style protest where it's like pretty peaceful, everybody's getting along, it's mostly just a giant rolling party and we're like March. Yeah, there's, you know, just like everybody's, there's been a great time. There's thousands of people. That's great when it happens. There is the queer resistance dance party that was today. It was wasn't thousands, but it was big. But yeah, and those are good and they they're great for the optics and it's really good, but it's also good for our morale and it's great for ever and it's great to that's another part of it too, is it's great to see people having a great time just, you know, peacefully resisting the Nazis, but for myself care. But it's also effective, you know? Like for those of us that are gonna be screaming. At the Nazis. And it's not going to be a peaceful life at all. Like, even if no one's getting punched, it's like not gonna be a peaceful life standing in front of a crowd of anti fascist. No, for those people, like, the optics are not gonna be on our side anyway because we've got these civility ******* like being like, well you're not being nice. You shouldn't be swearing at them. And I'm like, OK, we've already lost the optics battle in that regard, in terms of like. The moderates aren't on my side, so what's the next most effective part of to my tactic? Well, the next most effective thing that I'm worried about is the morale of my enemy. And when these guys are literally weak little ***** like they're just larpers. They're Nazi larpers. Yeah. And I think, I think at this point, what what you're talking about, one of the key things is like endurance, like they are really enchanted by the idea of having it be a one and done. Take over like being able to just like overpower something and that's that's been part of the the whole mission since it was first invented and being able to get large numbers of people to show up consistently over time and yell them down is going to show them. That we cannot last them. And I do think, I think overtime is critical. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna read for just a minute here to go over some stuff I found in their own chats. One is from a January 18th, 2018 thread about a rally where Richard Spencer and 30 fascists had to be escorted past a crowd of 2000 protesters. So this is what the Nazis said about that rally. Quote, first guy in the thread, these are those are brutal odds. With enough discipline and hopefully a halfway decent police force, we can survive. The first response was dude, it takes rule of law to protect 30 versus 2000. Discipline means nothing at that point the only thing keeping us alive is their fear of the police. Now there was another post that I found in a Facebook thread by Kat Snyder who was marching today, I think in the anti or in the fascist March. Cat is an activist within Jason Kessler Circle. She is a fascist activist. She posted in May when they were planning the rally that we just all got from that she had attended a Trump impeachment. Town Hall near her home and called it, quote, absolutely frightening and said that quote, the money in that room, the power, the numbers. So she was very scared by the number of people that she saw in opposition to her. And she was also very scared by the number of people that she saw at demonstrations against folks like Richard Spencer. And my question is, since optics are such an important part of the battle, is it more valuable that we be seen? In Moss resisting, than it is that we physically confront these people because physical confrontation breeds. If not sympathy, then at least more empathy than we want the Nazis to have. And the person I want to pose that question to 1st is Laron over here, who's been quite quiet and just finished attending his first protest. So Laran, sorry to put you on the spot. Oh wow. You did. I did. I put you really on the spot? You really did, boy gonna tell you? There are more. You got it? Yeah, there is a basically, I'm. I'm just overwhelmed still. Like, I. I can't believe it. Like I really can't believe what I just experienced the whole from the beginning to the end to the going back and seeing that the cops presence and and knowing how I already feel about the cops as it is, especially when it comes to my safety. You know, I I know I never feel like they have for my safety. I don't I'm depend on cost for anything as far as my safety goes. I think if you were. Repeat the question again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're probably helping you. You set up your minds to. I'm basically asking. So the Nazis are clearly demoralized by the fact that they're outnumbered, right? Is it better to just outnumber them, or do we need to physically confront them? Do we need to be violent with them? Or is it best to just show up and be consistently a show of our numbers against theirs? OK, well yeah, definitely. I feel from my observation today was watching them, a lot of them flee as as the as the crowd got bigger, you know, I guess they don't like intimidation whatsoever. They sure don't. They can't stand to be intimidated, which is which is what I really noticed the most today was that I saw a lot of them wrapping their flags up, moving the other way. Like the the larger the crowds got, the lighter it got. A lot of them weren't. It's like I don't know if they didn't completely by in or if they bought in and didn't realize. Couldn't stand the heat? Or does that say the heat got a little hot in the kitchen? They had to get out? My kitchen wasn't even that bad. It was hotter than what they would expect. I guess. Was only maybe like 50 of those of of them at all. And they all didn't even show up at the same time. From the watching the beginning of the March to the end of March, you only have a small section jump out from the beginning and he had others follow later on and there were a lot. From just observation, I don't know about actual numbers. There seem to be a fair number that were undercover, that were wandering around, and that is kind of telling that they were unwilling to show themselves with the main group. They were unwilling to actually participate, but they were there with sticks and umbrellas in hand to use as weapons in case they got the chance and explained. When you pointed this out to me and I man explained to you that I didn't think it was a problem because. I'm an ******* and I was completely wrong because they wound up being the secret Nazis that later led to almost a fight with the police, right? So what I saw was there was a guy with a red rain jacket with the hood pulled up really high, and it was zipped up over his face and he was carrying an umbrella and he was wearing a backpack and he was with another guy who was all in black. Could have looked like an Antifa, but clearly was not operating with them. That's what I thought as I just assumed he was all in black. He was like all in like, you know, Under Armour or whatever. And he had a like a cane and was walking around. And these are all three white guys. And there was a third who was also wearing a hood and a bandana. And he had a like a wooden, huge wooden stick stuck into his backpack underneath his backpack, holding it up. And it was like looking at them. I was like 3 white dudes, completely independent, knowing to like paraphernalia on them. Like, no. The Antifa was really persistent about, like, don't take pictures, don't take pictures if you want to support, take pictures. And they're all in groups. And these guys were not saying anything like that, and they were really kind of skittish. And I was like, oh, we have undercover Nazis here, look at this. And after I saw that, I started seeing them everywhere. And later when we got out from dinner, that's what we, that guy in the red jacket and his friend were the ones that were. Things surrounded by a crowd of Black Lives Matter protesters. So can you describe the experience that we had going to dinner and then after dinner, yeah. So we walked out of Old Ebbitt Grill. We figured this **** was over by then. So we we we did our marching, we did our yelling, the Nazis left and we raining. We ate some enchiladas when we got drunk. So we come out and. And we see that up the street. There's this crowd, and it's mostly people of color, and they're really angry and. In our morning recording, Matt talked about the flag of Kekistan kekistan. So for people who are for yeah, thank you for doing the regular. For people who are for whatever reason turning into the second part of our episode and have not listened to the first, the kekistan flag is the flag of a bunch of Nazi nerd gamers based on like KEC, which is essentially how Koreans say lol and like they made this flag for their fake country of people who were. Putting out memes for the luls. And the flag is based off of the Kriegsmarine flag from World War Two. So it's it's based off of a Nazi flag. The German Navy flag from World War Two. It's a Nazi they love. This is the flag that's inverted in inverted colors, right? Yeah, yeah, essentially that. And the Nazis love. This is why they do 1488, which is where like the 14 words and eight, eight is like Hitler, H is the 8th letter of the words or letter of the alphabet. So like, **** ****** is 8888 because it's like if you took a swab. They're kind of, like filled in the spaces. It's like a digital 88. And they're literally that lame. I'd heard a totally different thing. I couldn't because it was hail Hitler and HHH, right? Honestly? Yeah. Either way, not to hide things. Yeah. So we saw the kekistan flag and we walk up and we see that there's a bunch of people who are really agitated, and there's a double line of cops between them. And these two guys, and we asked what's going on? And these guys are like, ohh, we're like, there's these like 2 little Nazis here, and they've got this flag and they're just hanging out and all these cops are protecting them. And we're angry that the cops are protecting them. And so they, yes, there was some aggressive chance that got started. We're not gonna name names. Definitely wasn't me. And and and by aggressive it was, we are many there for you. And who do you serve? Who do you protect? And the first one, when you first explained that chant by the way, Nick you, you meant that as sort of like aimed at the Nazis. Yes. But then I realized as it took off, I was like, oh, the police think we're talking about them. And it hit, hit kind of work for the police because there were less police than angry people and they were and they got. Mad they got concerned when that one took off? Yeah. Which is be careful what you chant, which is if you're chanting, if you're a chanter, if you're chanting, be careful what you chant and when you chant it. Although I support your chant, by the way, so when this group of people started shouting. At the cops. Saying, who do you serve, who do you protect? We suddenly realized that on the other side of the street there was a whole bunch of there were a whole bunch of cop cars pulling up in their whole bunch of cops on bikes showing up and they blocked us into a crosswalk area. So on one side you had to double row cops and then you had a bunch of protesters and then on the other side of the crosswalk you had a triple road and hops backed up by like multiple police vehicles. And if you haven't been to a protest? For one of the things that police will do, that is very intelligent strategy. If you have bicycle, cops were used their bicycles to form a physical barrier and then stand behind or in front of their bicycles. But they will essentially be bicycle wheel to bicycle wheel and make a wall of bicycles and then stand to hold them up. And it's a very effective way of creating a mobile barricade. So they had a double row of that plus another row of police behind them plus backup in cars. So it was a very intimidating situation and and it seemed. Like kind of over the top 42 Nazis, given that we were yelling at them because of the kekistan flag, and it was just a very tense situation, and these were the guys that I had recognized from before. Yeah, you nailed it. And I figured they were just Antifa people who weren't with the main group or whatever, because I'm the *******. Everything we saw, it was when we were winding down after part one of yelling at Nazis, when we were thinking about, you know, hey, there are 5000 people here. We can we've been doing this all day. We're tired. Yeah. And so we were waiting and we were gathering, were grouping up and what was your drink? We were gathering up. We were trying to find Ron cause we want to get our damn drinks. And the guy came up to us and said. Hey, there's two Nazis over there that are, like, completely unprotected. They've got no one. Like, they're like, they're they're just there and they're like talking and ****. And The thing is, at first, OK, I was a Marine, I am was made to be a hammer. All of my problems look like nails. So I'm sitting here like, ooh, cool, where are the Nazis? I'd like to go hit some Nazis. These guys are unprotected Nazis. Punch the Nazis. And that was my initial reaction. And then it was like, and then I don't remember what someone. Of my compatriots here said something and then I suddenly realized that guy that told us that was probably an agitator and he probably wanted us to start. She was a provocateur. He was this like middle-aged white dude who was alone, not working with anybody. And he gave us that information to disappeared and then he like ran and like he was probably also a Nazi. It's hard man. When you go to enough events like this you get very paranoid because number one, there were a lot of people in the crowd with the journal. So when when this all first started, just to explain to the listener, there was we were standing outside of essentially a metro station in DC and the Nazis came out of the metro station and there was a line of police protecting their route of March. And there were anti fascist activists all around the outside of that yelling at these people and journalists and journalists and the among the crowd of journalists. Door undercover police. And we knew they were because they had badges clipped to their belts. So if some of what we have said in the last little bit here sounds paranoid, it is. Because if you attend a lot of protests, paranoia occurs because things that induce paranoia happen in protests, and sometimes you're wrong with your paranoia, but oftentimes you are not. Hannah was not wrong in her paranoia, and I was wrong in my countering her paranoia. Thank you. My paranoia is always right. And you know what? House is right. Is the wonderful wonderful companies that support this podcast with their products and or services which we know well, not yet, not yet Hannah. Although I will say if there is one anti fascist food product made out of corn based food like substances, it is the Doritos company and they're delightful products actually food. Kind of like saying cheese product. It's synthetic food. It's food based. But cheese was consulted for some other products. Cheese endorses Doritos and worse services. Listen to these here ads. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. 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But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade, we hear at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions. Sometimes there are answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research. With you for the first time ever in a book format, you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know now. It's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read or wherever you find your favorite books. My name is Erica Kelly and I am the host and creator of Southern Freight true crime. There are so many people that just have no idea about some injustices in the world, and if you can give a voice to them, you can create change. To be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with Spreaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always feel like an ambassador for speaker, but that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with speaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to That's Get paid to talk about the things you love with spreaker from iheart. So we're back, so I wanna bring us around to. You know, we have a big question and try to answer at the end of this if it's answerable. But one thing I want to get to now is do we think the Nazis won or lost in this rally? And obviously they were outnumbered. I do want to read a couple of of tweets Jason Kessler put up in the immediate aftermath of this because those are pertinent. Bush he was hiding in? No. The metro car that he was protected in. He was hiding in a Bush at some time at some point though, really? Yeah. I was flying around Twitter. Someone was like, that was that was the last year rally he was expecting. He was like spicy. He came out of a Bush. Yeah just Homer faded into their foliage. I think the overall, I mean I'm sure the tweets will shed some light on how they think they did, but I think they lost. And the reason I think they lost is that they were very clearly intimidated. They're they looked stupid. They looked pathetic. They didn't get to get in any of these altercations. They didn't get to feel like victims. But they very clearly ****** *** DC. And DC showed up in ******* force. ****. The Black Lives Matter flag came onto the field at some at one point and people start chanting Black Lives Matter. And then lightning increased the sky. The ******* gods were angry at the Nazis. It was such a it was charged moments. It was so perfect. I was like, OK, I don't know if everyone here. That happened. I'd be like, alright, I'm going home now. I'm gonna hide. Ohh. The Black Lives Matter flag was heralded by lightning and Thunder. I'm going home. What kind of forever? What kind of forever, ************. So here's what Jason Kessler tweeted. Thank you to all the law enforcement officers that protected free speech and public safety today at hashtag U TR2. The whole thing has been a logistical challenge from hell, but we proved we could do it peacefully, despite all the naysayers. And now there are a couple of other posts. One of them. Is a thing he retweeted from an activist named Hannah Natanson, who was, I think, one of the white nationalist protesters who today. Woman? Yeah, a a lady. Yeah. People used to be talking about how white women are really doing their part to uphold this nonsense. They sure are. They're not. They're not falling down in the racism fascism supporting department. Can I just take a second here as a white woman, two other white women who are listening to this? We're all racist and we have to do the ******* work to overcome that because it has been bred into us and into our socialization and we are complacent. Exact same thing that I would like it all to men. Just that. You don't get to ******* do this. No men. ********. Don't give me that. OK, so I I should say here I was wrong. Hannah Natanson is apparently a reporter, apparently with the Washington Post. Oh, we just called her a Nazi. Well, here's what she tweeted. So here, I'm gonna read out what she tweeted. I'm the one responsible. By the way, none of you did anything wrong because I gave you all bad information. Because we're drinking. We're we're drinking, and we're coming. But here's what she said to white women. Rather, she said, nasty or not, it's so relevant. Well, and here's her tweet so we can we can comment after we I read this tweet encircled by reporters, Kessler says he is not a white supremacist, but a, quote, civil rights advocate for white people. He said white Americans are unfairly discriminated against, pointing in part to the removal of Alex Jones from social media sites. So, wait, so then why doesn't the ACLU hire him? Question. No, no, ask him. Yeah, he's very curious to me that. That as a white, straight, cisgender, able bodied male, he feels so oppressed. And that the thing that he points to toward, like the root of his oppression is, oh, Alex Jones. First of all, he was not kicked off Twitter, right? Like he was still on Twitter and all my crazy social media, social media. So he was from some social media sites. Yeah, not not Twitter. It was everybody but Twitter, right? Yeah, yeah. They took some of the **** down after everybody yelled. And he was sort of. Kind of 100% without any sort of deniability, urging that people harass the family members of children who were murdered during the news. That's all he was just. He was just harassing the families of murdered children since Sandy Hook. Oh well, that's exactly it all. All that Alex Jones was guilty of was urging was was was saying that the family members of small children who were murdered by a mass shooter were part of a false flag operation and urging his followers to harass them. But. So I I think, I don't think anyone listening to this podcast about terrible people in history is going to be on the side of Alex Jones. So we shouldn't belabor the point. I do want to talk about this person's report. I just find it curious that like, that is the evidence. It's like white people are oppressed. Was there made evidence? Alex Jones, did she give a follow up tweet? I'm looking for that right now. Did everybody? I would like to read her Washington Post by lying piece tomorrow about this? OK, yeah. Let's keep an eye on this menchie's. Because I'm sure they'll be real interesting. I I heard you say munchies and then I realized you meant munchies. Yeah, she had some other stuff that was fair ish. Like where she said like the Unite the right marches of all left town. This was earlier in the day. They're always supposed to begin at 5:30. While in DC, 20 marchers listen to a brief Kessler speech and talk to reporters. One man told me the Washington Post is Jewish owned and he doesn't speak to Jews before he walked away. So she did. She did note that? I don't know. Part of this may be the fact that Twitter is a good way to spread links to news stories. Not a good way to do journalism, and so her quote out of context doesn't great. It's really, really hard to do reporting on the ground and keep track of everything and tweet about it at the same time, and so I'm sure there's a lot missing. And kind of give her a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to be mean to Hannah because I don't know this lady. And maybe maybe she's a fair minded kind of insinuation was a Nazi. This is why I did. I did. That was unfair. This is why I said I wanna see her piece tomorrow and see see what she actually says in her report, not see an insinuation. Withdrawn. Yeah, but Kessler retweeted that. And then later he retweeted another post from you. TR. Hurricane. Hurricane, hashtag. White civilization something or other white civil rights. Hurricane in anyway, because it looks like a picture of a young lady. Hurricanes are dark and fearsome. So this is your this is your young lady who seems to be supporting Jason Kessler, who was marching with him today. One of the women who was marching with him days who shed. We just destroyed three large pizzas in the motorhome, but before I pass out I want to say this. I feel vindicated. I was called every nasty name in the book for believing in the hashtag white civil rights rally and the DC Police Department and Jason Kessler and peaceful free speech. Goodnight. OK. I wanna say something on that point. The idea that if you were opposed by people then you are doing the right thing is really pervasive in in particular in conservative evangelical circles. And I don't can't speak for the alt right, but I feel like there's a lot of overlap where this there's this idea of, well, like Jesus was killed in the world and so in the world you have trouble. So if you are following. Jesus, correctly, you will be opposed and you will meet a lot of conflict. And so that kind of mentality reinforces the sense of moral rightness. For these people, it's sort of like how I firmly believe that we should replace cows with horses and vice versa, and that that's that. That's something I believe religiously, and the fact that everyone disagrees with me I take is proof that my ideas are righteous and right, but may just be proof that I'm a crazy person who thinks it's not a non sequitur, it's a horse, and it should be what we make hamburgers out of. Wait, can I ask the question? Absolutely. What do you guys feel like? So in case people are listening and they're like, what's the makeup of the room? You have two black men, one black woman, a white woman and a white man. What do you guys feel that these are, these are your fellow white people? Like, how, how does that feel for you? Guys? Like knowing that like that. And they are doing this because they are trying to assert like their race, their, their superiority kind of and kind of like on your behalf, like what does that experience like for you as white people? I mean, Hanna, if you wanna answer first, you're welcome to. I have a thing. OK. So that's an interesting question and I appreciate you asking. I'm very curious. Yeah. So on one hand, it's like you don't represent me. Shut up. And there were signs that we saw that said that too, right. And on the other hand, it's. I do not believe that guilt is a useful emotion. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of apologies from people who treated me shittily when I got divorced or when I was like, in the process of leaving the cult I grew up in, who have now come around and they're like, I'm so sorry I was horrible to you. And my perspective on that is like, that doesn't mean no good do better. And so for me as a white person, if I feel guilty, I need to relate that experience. To how guilt has felt when I have received it from people who are apologetic and feel guilty. And my job is not to sit and feel guilty, it's to do better. So I am going to work on educating myself. It is an ongoing life long task. Every society, in every community I have ever been a part of was created in some form or another. On racist beliefs, homeschooling, Christian evangelicalism, white churches, the college I went to, all these places were had very, very few people of color on purpose. And so I feel like the burden is on me to correct that, and I've got a long journey ahead of me. But showing up for these kinds of things is part of that journey, and I don't want Brownie points because I'm just now doing the bare minimum. That I should have been doing all along. But it's a long process. So, like, but the whole thing is like, these guys don't represent me and I'm here to tell them that and to do my moral duty. And I mean, I'm just like, so I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big white guy, very tall and very broad, and I'm very white. And I have for a long time, one of my hobbies was just lying to my friends about things, because when I talk about stuff in a, in an authoritative. Banner people believe me because I'm a big white guy and that's just the way our society is set up. That if as a big white guy you sit and you start telling facts or whatever, people will listen to you, even if it's lies. Which is why most of our I don't know, we can get into the political end of this at some other point. But I have the idea that white people would need a civil rights rally as a white dude is inconceivable to me because I have had a lot of difficulties in my life and I know a lot of other white. Men who have had a lot of difficulties in life, very tough lives, very painful lives. None of it has to do with the fact that we're white guys. And the fact that these people are saying that that's a problem that we have is very frustrating to me. And it's more frustrating than you talk to men. Men's rights activists and I don't agree with those people either. But there are injustices for men based on women, like the fact that men who have children, if they go to court with their female childbearing partner or whatever term you choose to use. They have more difficulty winning custody, whatever. There are legitimate legal issues there that can be addressed or whatever, but a few of them have points, some of the points there's a reason that that system privilege is the childbearing partners. But yes, there's a debate to be had there there. There's no rational debate by which you can believe white people, and particularly white men, are disadvantaged in the United States of America because look at this country. Like, walk outside, go go on a walk. Like, it's very clear. Yeah. In my experience as a human, when the white people are like, yeah, but this isn't a problem. There are more important things to focus on. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to ignore you because you're you've always been wrong in my experience, because unless you have suffered loss of privilege, you don't have any idea what the other side is experiencing at all. And I'm a I'm a child of Hollywood. Like most of the planet. Are you a starlet? No, I'm like, I'm a kid. You were a lack kid. No, it was a kid who was raised by movies, movies and television like I am A child who was raised by films. OK? And one thing American cinema has done is a great job of convincing me that the underdogs are usually the people that you should root for. And the underdogs in this society wherein are not white guys like that's for sure, not who is being ****** over in this. Society. That goes back to my point, yeah, with like, who are the cops behaving for? Who do you protect? Who do you protect? Who do you serve? They're protecting the white supremacists. And they're not protecting the people who are against white supremacy. So the system is is stacked, it's clear. Well, and that that brings us back to my initial question, which is not is it right or wrong to punch Nazis, but is it, does it bring us closer to our goal of a society where Nazis have no political power, which is, I think most people listening can agree Nazis shouldn't have any political power, white supremacists. Did not have any kind of political power. The cake acation out of political power. Does violence to them bring us closer to that goal than peaceful resistance at this point in the debate? And that is the question I want to go around as a roundtable and get people's thoughts on. So why don't we start with you, Bridget, the person holding the mic? Yeah, I'm holding the mic. I'm. Yeah, I my name is Bridget. I I don't know. I mean, it's hard for me. You guys saw me out there. I get emotional and I think that. For me, it's. I may intellectually know that punching Nazis and, like screaming in their face is not getting us closer to being free, but there's something cathartic about it. And. My, like, primate brain, like, there's a part of my brain that's just like, yes, hit them, punch them. Like, I'm not concerned about whether or not it gets us closer to our goal. You know, I'm an organizer, so I think about things in terms of what is our, you know, our shared goal. But there is something, there's something visceral that happens that almost makes me turn that part of my logical brain off. And I'm just like, I want him get hit like and it's like I become a I become like. Punch bad man. Punch bad man. It's like, yeah, like when you were out there, I mean, like, you and I got into that argument with, like, with a guy and set that up a little bit because we so these people, the people y'all listening right now. Yeah. At all what we're talking and we actually have the audio of you, like, destroying him and if you wanna put it in. So you were video. Yeah, we were, we were at this protest and we were, we were watching these people with kekistan flag. It surrounded. And while that was happening, there was an elderly guy who was clearly not from the United States. In did not speak English as a first language and was like, it's like to be clear, I'm I I'm familiar with him. He's unwell like he's fine, he's a regular DC regular and he's he's mentally unwell and his his signs were all about circumcision and there was a a young white guy in a three piece suit and a dude filming him interviewing this guy about his sign. And this carbon ******* copy of a suit I've seen Richard Spencer in? Yeah, he got it on the discount rack at Men's Wearhouse and probably Manafort wishes he had it. Well, there's no ostrich in that ******* seat. So this young dude was like talking to this guy who was a little bit off about his circumcision based sign at a rally. That was a focus of our own racial justice. And it seemed like it was very clearly this guy and his friend came out to the protest who tried to film the few crazy signs they could find so that they could. Make fun of the whole protest by pointing out like and they explicitly said that. Yeah. Explicitly said we're going to have a little fun. Yeah. They said we're here to have a little fun. This guy. That's smug ******. Yeah. Face the whole time. Yeah. He had a very smug he's find video evidence on Twitter. I recorded it. It's there. It's frustrating. We'll we'll we'll link it. So he both Bridget and I wound up confronting this guy at varying points because he just was clearly up to no good and she got very heated, which was understandable in the moment. So that's it. Like, what was the lead in what you want to explain? Yeah. So I got, I got heated. And I think for me, you know, I was born in DC. This is, I've lived in DC for most of my adult life. People come here for protests and they think it's, you know, a theme park for their cosplay around whatever. This is my home. I live here. I'm gonna have a kid here like this is where I live because you're not the **** out of my house. Yeah, I for me, the fact that that guy was targeting somebody that is obviously marginalized, obviously unwell, there are 1,000,000 people to talk to who are out and about it. It's not. I don't think it's a coincidence that he shows an older guy I got who didn't really speak English, a guy who was clearly like, he chose a vulnerable DC resident. And this guy said he was from Maryland, so he came into town quote, to have a little fun. Not, not you'll notice it wasn't with a shirtless Black Lives Matter big guy. It wasn't with someone who would have, like, gotten in his face. I thought it was really interesting that when you, when Matt, when you like, talk to him. That's what people call me, by the way, Robert, is how they know me. We're not going to explain that anymore. OK? Continue. Do you guys do the beeps? No, we don't. OK, that's a weird East Coast thing. OK. OK, I'll include all this, but I will make fun of y'all. OK, fine. But this is the thing. I'm sorry. No, but but Robert, when you when you got in his face and you challenged him, I thought he real that guy. I know that guy. I feel comfortable saying this because I've seen that guy at every DC protest. Because the older guy, yeah, the older guy. I feel comfortable saying this. I've seen him for years. He is. Can I just say something like I haven't lived in DC in about 3 years and I've seen that guy around. He's a fixture. He's around, he's he's. Fine, but he is clearly meant. He's like a vulnerable, vulnerable person. Like he is under housed and he is. Of all the people to like talk to, like no good journalist would interview that guy, correct. Approached by journalist three times during this protest. Good. They should be not completely sure why me, but OK, but they talk to me and you're wearing this shirt and you're wearing. Look that like, yeah, I get you. You look like a veteran and you're wearing a Black Lives Matter shirt. So they came and talked to ME3 separate times and none of that looked at all like what was happening with this. **** no, that was that was bullying. Like, what was what we were witnessing was who is someone who is a vulnerable, who is someone that will not have the ability to best me that I can make look foolish. And you know what? Talk to journalists all the time and they're always so respectful, so thoughtful, so informed. So, like, open to where I'm coming from and this guy was playing the I'm gonna get you a game and exactly, yeah. As a journalist who has covered a lot of civil unrest in his career, you don't talk to the kooks because they don't. They're not representative. They don't teach you anything. So, I mean, this feeds into the point there's real **** going on here and some ************ from his ******* Maryland college showing up in a *** **** suit to make a a nutty old guy who is harmless look like a spokesperson for this rally against people who are. Out and proud members of the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah, is infuriating. It was. It's a when we were. So I completely agree. I think that why I got so upset was that it was someone that was marginalized and vulnerable and that, like, he was clearly of all the people to talk to, he didn't talk to any of the like, black dudes, Latino dudes without shirts screaming. He was way too scared to approach anyone who was not as white as him. Exactly. Soon as I got in his face. The camera, like, you could watch his body language. It really uncomfortable. He he like, he like would start stuttering and his friend with the camera put his camera down as soon as we started talking. Which is exactly how you know that he's a ******* charlatan. Yeah. And so I guess for me, you know, it's hard because. This is my community. This is my home. Like, this is not a game. This is not a thing for fun. Like this is where I live, the guy that he was, you know, targeting, that's sort of like, like, I hate to say that he's like my kook, like he's like, my like he's your neighbor. Yes, he's he's in my community and. I agree with you that in terms of is it OK to punch Nazis, it's probably more effective in terms of a more effective theory of change around how we deal with Nazis, to reason with them, not punch them. But in that moment, I was like, I was like, where is the person that's just like, I'm ending this with a ******* fist. Like, I didn't wanna hit him. Yeah, didn't I didn't. Didn't you? Here's the other thing that was really interesting about this conversation. Last jawline he did. He was just like. Some people are just begging for a punch to the face. There's a German word for that. What is it? It's back for Schlag and maybe bug, but it's it's it. He was bad. He was hella bad. Football, I think back for sluggish is something like that. We've all been homie was homie was Hella bachelor fog. The exact translation of the German word is a face in need of a fist. Yeah. And here is the other thing that's really interesting to for this whole experience is when we when Matt started shaming him for his tactics as, like, this is not professional. No journalist would do this, those kinds of things. He would duck his shoulders and cross his hands over his crotch and look down and he he assumed the physical posture of shame. And so I I served in the Peace Corps in Kurdistan. And the Peace Corps volunteers I know would collect colloquially call this an age, age shame circle. Where like the older women who would be referred to as AJ's would. If a student had been acting out for a long, long time at school and was like just resilient against correction, they would bring him into the school, they bring his parents in with him, and then all the teachers would just like shame him in front of his family to make. Him realized this constant like the severity of his behavior and how it was affecting the community and how is this is a this is reflecting on your parents, this is reflecting on your school, this is reflecting on your classmates. This behavior does not belong here. And because of that like ingrained tactic as a woman there, if I had a man harassing me, I could go to him and say, hey. Where's your shame? Why are you talking to me like that? Do you want me to tell your mother? I mean, teacher? I'm respected in this community and I'm working for free, and you're talking to me like that. And he would immediately stand down. I don't have that kind of power in America. Coming back to the states, I feel less safe because I have no social power to pull shame on someone who is acting out like that. And so I think with the the Nazis and this the situation, we need to find that shame trigger. I think that shame is more powerful than punching them. I think we need to find the moment where they like their line is whatever that far out moral line is, and we need to call them on the spot. And make them feel ashamed of themselves. He did that when you told him no journalist would do this. I think that he felt shame. I am a white male journalist, and another clearly intelligent white male journalist is telling me, homie, I'm ashamed of you right now. I think that what you said to him cut him deeper than anything, that I, as a black woman could have ever said something about you the way that you appealed to him. I feel like cut him so deep because he views you as a person who's. Yeah, matter. And so, so my so I guess I'm gonna roll off of what both of you said because I agree with both of you. And I guess my thesis on should we punch Nazis is. I in my position as someone who sees Nazis as an existential ******* threat, and everyone who supports them as existential threat to me and mine, I will always punch Nazis. I think they must be destroyed. I think that perhaps. Getting rid of them in a way that doesn't involve me punching and then later if things go real bad, doing further than punching Nazis would be better for the world. I think that a war with Nazis is going to result in a lot of people getting hurt. I don't want people to get hurt, but I have no power to make that happen because they don't see me as a person. I can talk at them all day and nothing I do will change anything they they believe. It won't make them be any less dangerous to me. So if I'm in a situation where I'm face to face with a Nazi. I cannot guarantee that he will walk away with an intact face, but of what we don't but if we don't want. To punch Nazis. If as a society we want the Nazis to not get punched, we want them to disappear. It's not on black people. White people need to shame Nazis. And The thing is, it's starting. It's kind of starting. I think they're starting. Part of the reason there weren't 1000 Nazis here is that for the last year, anytime one of these dumb ******* you know, stands up and it starts yelling racial slurs at someone, we've all got real good cameras in our pockets. And people are like, hey, I'm going to videotape this guy screaming at someone because they're a Puerto Rico shirt. And their life gets dismantled. So keep doing that. Well, it's that ruined. Like it's like when you, one of your siblings acts out and everybody kind of looks at you at the party and they're like, go get your kid, go get your get your own. Your boy white people deal with your own and that's. I think that's a really good point. Those are all really good points, and I think that that's as the whitest man who's ever lived. I've got some real white people here. You're not the white out there. You're white as a very white man. Yeah, we it is. It is incumbent upon one of the reasons my hero of this protest is that British guy who just tried to leap over the cops to punch a Nazi because he was the whitest, because he because there's nothing whiter than the British like they are. They are clear. They are a window. It is. It is incumbent upon us to to. Stand up and like. Confront these people because it shouldn't get to punching. Yes, they should be. And that's part of the problem. These people existed, everyone. None of these people were not Nazis before Donald Trump won the election, but the 2016 election made them think that they could get away with being open about what they were. And nobody, nobody in their communities called them on it. No one in their families has pulled them aside and said, honey, we're going to take you to the hospital because this is a ******* problem. We're cutting off your trust fund. Yeah, because you're bringing shame upon, which is how Richard Spencer does this **** but like, it's make racists afraid again is a great slogan, but it doesn't mean beating up racists. I mean, that might be what it gets to if **** descends enough, but it starts with just making them scared to be racist. You can't cure them. It is not. It's no one's job, no matter how white you are. It is no one's job to cure racists. You can't. You can't cure anyone of anything. But it is your job to make them feel bad about it, drive them underground. And I do think. We have not gotten to lower on yet, so I do want to ask luran the simple question. Is it better to hit Nazis or to is it more effective? As a tactic to hit Nazis or to shame them. OK, well Ben, this is my first ohh March in protest. I went through. I was there, I went through a variety of emotions. So when I first started at the train station, by the time we got to the site, I wanted to probably harm every last one of them. But as I sat there and I watched and and and and actually started to observe what was going on from the complete full circle. I came to a realization by the end of it. That and the payback of whatever I was saying. It's really not my fight. It's my fight when I'm confronted with with them, you know, then it's my fight. When it's me and a Nazi, you know, in an alley or, you know, in a in a store or, you know anywhere else anywhere on the streets and in a uniform, you know, it's my fighting. Then I will punch a nice, you know, but as far as a worldwide? Maybe not cure, but. Remedy for now is that. You have to. White people have made other white people feel guilty about it and that's the only way we can't. There's nothing we can do. We can support and give you examples of how we feel so you can go forward with how we feel about it. But it's really, I think that was the biggest take away I've taken from this, is it. I was seeing everybody else kind of take the the, the, the staying and say, well, we got this. You know, I'm saying and and I was able to sit back right now is to survive. It's going to take men starving the roots of the patriarchy to destroy it because it grows from us. You know, it's the thing that I thank you for all the work that you've done for that this year. There's a phrase that I I may have heard it. I don't know if maybe it's something that popped into my head, or maybe it's something said, probably something someone said was. It's when I'm talking to other men about this, about male ******** and when I'm talking to white people about white people ********. The thing that I try to say because, you know, like people always want to respond with the and I heard it at the protest, like because I we we said something about cops never being on our side. And this one was like, well, I'm a cop and I'm here. I'm like, I don't give a **** the cops on my side. And at some point she even said not all white people. I was like, I'm not here to deal with you but go home. But the thing that I want to say to those people. Is listen, I'm aware that, like, the patriarchy isn't my fault or your fault or your fault. I didn't make the patriarchy was born into it. And I'm aware that white supremacy isn't your fault or your fault. You didn't make white supremacy. You were born into it. But it's your ******* responsibility, and it's my ******* responsibility. The patriarchy won't disappear without men being like, hey, we're in a we're in our ******* you know, locker room, and some guy talks about starts talking about the **** that people call locker room. I'm like, shut the **** **. Like they won't go away until men are like you don't get to be among us. Unless you stop this **** and it's the same thing with white people. That's a really good analogy racism gets killed by. White supremacy will die when white people stop feeding it and I think that's the point we want to end on because I can't think of a better line to end and on. And I think everyone for joining and I will now selfishly know that our website and our Instagram and Twitter is at ******** pod. I can't think of anything else to end this on so I will just say. Buy a bag of Doritos and watch downfall, the movie where Hitler dies in a bunker. Just do that. And also read some books. Read whatever books. Go and educate yourself. Buy material by black authors. Go read. So you want to talk about race? Go read. Read the invention of the white race. It's a long, dense read, but give it, give it and like, read some bell hooks and like, yeah, like. Like, also like, I'm gonna put this is Bridget. I'm just gonna put a little plug in. Like, don't put that **** on black women, like. Go on the Internet, read books. You know, don't expect, like, white people have to dismantle this **** and figure this **** out. Talk to your cousins or whatever. Whatever it takes. It isn't our job. And like, don't put **** on people of color who already are just, like, trying to ******* survive. As you said, it's exhausting. Or at the very minimum, pay them. Pay them. What's your PayPal snapping? Because Hanna just said something very real. What's your PayPal? Well, I'm actually fine. PayPal. PayPal. Somebody who like pay PayPal. Somebody who needs the ******* money. Because I guarantee you there is a woman, probably woman of color out there who is teaching, learning, like shepherding people into the, you know, the, the righteous, the righteous path. And she could probably use a little bit of a papal blessing. And, and I'll just say if you if you're a white woman, you're curious about this coming from evangelical conservative. Perspective of unlearning your internalized racism. I'd like to recommend the work of Caris Adele, who is a student at UVA right now and she's on Twitter under that name and she tweets a lot about the the stuff that she's read and the experiences that she's gone through and educating herself on this and this has been really quality stuff. So read up, do some reading, get out in the streets when you can, do some activism, support the things that you can support and and stay at a reasonable level. Level of anger to be productive. And when you're too tired for all of that, and when it's just time to take a break, buy a bag of cool ranch Doritos and. And just just have a nice and nice little chill session and this has been behind the ******** and I've been Robert Evans and I love about 40% of you. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break your handle. Hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast go to That's 1980s and 90s a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio, this is La Monstra, a story of abomination and conspiracy. The story about the man who simply become known as. Lamaster. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey you, do you like sports? Of course you do. But how much do you actually know about the history of sports in this country? 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