There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:00
Behind the Police: How The Police Defeated Lynching Via Torture
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We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because after all, she played gangster games, you are ultimately rewarded with gangster prizes. iHeartRadio is number one for podcast, but don't take our word for it. Find the Gangster Chronicles podcast on. By heart radio app or wherever you get your podcast. On April 4th, 1968, Doctor Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. Case closed right, James Earl Ray was a pawn for the official story. Some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to behind the police, a production of iHeartRadio. Depressing ****. I mean, hello, I'm Robert Evans and this is behind the police, the podcast that's normally behind the ******** but is for this week, last week and next week, giving a detailed history about the, you know, the cops and such the systemic manifestation of. White supremacy. Yeah. And ******* even. Sure, yeah. And the voice that you heard that's not mine. Just then is Jason Petty, better known as the hip hop artist propaganda. Jason, how are you continuing to do pulling a ham sandwich out the damn cabinet? There we go. There we go. I don't. Yeah. I'm sorry. No, no, I it's been hours, guys. There hasn't been enough freestyling on this podcast because I can't. No one's wrapping and shouldn't. Yeah. And I should not let me go straight to something that would be incredible. That would be very fun. You and like glue network, astronautalis. Like you guys just do a song and then just all of a sudden Robert Evans just raps and man, if I had any musical talent. That would be that would be cool, but yeah, yeah. We all have our gifts, and my gift is reading things that are really depressing for, I don't know, another 90 minutes or so. Yeah, which is a kind of music, but yeah. Anyway, we don't talk nearly enough about lynching today. And and that's starting to change because of the recent, you know, lynchings. I think we're at 6 right now. Possible lynchings. But lynching has a long and, well prouds the wrong word. I should have put proud in there, but has a long history in the United States and the history of lynching in the US is not entirely a racist. But I mentioned this before, but actually the term came out of like, people hanging British tax collectors by their thumbs and stuff like that. Yeah, so like the first lynching victims were British people and kind of had it coming because they were, they were being ***** colonialist *****. Obviously nobody thinks of British people and they think about lynching victims. It's also fair, like worth noting that during the period where lynching was most common in the United States, from like the late 1800s to the mid 1900s. Uh, not every person lynched. Uh was black, although the vast majority were. Lynching was used to enforce racial terror from whites against blacks. But it was also a really common method of of what we'd call, you know, thinking back to our first episode, Public Spirit Law enforcement, you know, communities dealing with people that they saw as problematic, some of whom were surely guilty, some of them probably who certainly weren't. I found one analysis of 4467 lynching victims from 1883 to 1940. One 4027. Victims were men, 99 were women, and 341 were of unknown, or more accurately, nobody wrote down what the gender was 3265. Of these, 4467 victims were Black, 1082 were White, 71 were Mexican, and 38 were American Indian, while ten were Chinese and one was Japanese. All of these numbers are, of course, likely somewhat low because we'll never know the total number of people who were lynching victims. Now, historians who study lynching generally divided into 3 separate regimes. The Wild West, where lynching was mostly white people, lynching a lot of other white people in areas where there just wasn't law enforcement in a way. So like you, this was like how you dealt with people who were a problem. And then there was the slavery regime, which was found in former slave states where lynching existed as a form of social control against black people. And then a smaller regime of lynching on the Texas Mexican border where Latinos were lynched by White Texans. So there is a kind of the three. Rod areas that most lynchings during the lynching. In the US history kind of come come down to. You know, in all of these cases, law enforcement was about as likely to support any given lynching as it was to oppose it. There are many cases in the lynchings of white and black people alike where police officers would just hand over their keys to an angry mob to let them in the jail. Sometimes this was due to the officers supporting the crowd's efforts. A lot of times it was simple pragmatism because a ton of lynch mobs would burn down jails when the police resisted them. So some of this was just like, well, I don't want to die. Yeah, there's one of me and I got a real ****** 6 gun. Like, OK. Yeah, you're like, look, man, this job isn't worth it. This job ain't worth it. Yeah, there there was a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this was often the case. Police kind of backing away because they didn't want their jail to get burned down and to get killed themselves. This was often the case with lynchings in Oklahoma. Oklahomans ******* loved vigilante violence. Still kind of do. But like, oh man, historians who study this are like, **** in Oklahoma. Those are like they would, yo *****. Yeah, and this was particularly the case in Tulsa. OK now, the sooner state was, in general, a big lynching state, it was number 11 in the nation for lynchings. And Oklahoma was famous for having a public that loved taking justice into its own hands. We're going to talk about the Tulsa race riot of 1921 and a bit and the burning of Black Wall Street. Wall Street, not law St yeah. And and obviously this is in the consciousness of a lot more white folks recently because the TV show Watchmen featured it. But the year before that all happened. A mob of white tulsans rushed to the County Courthouse to lynch a prisoner, a white prisoner. The local Sheriff's Department did nothing, and the local police were supportive. The chief called the lynching of real benefit to Tulsa and the vicinity, but the sheriff actually got fired for kind of one that you're not fired like recalled for standing down to this lynching. And again, historians will often note that prior to the race riot or racist riot of 1921, Tulsa had relatively minimal history of mass violence from white people against. Black people, right. We're not gonna say it was like, congenial, friendly relations between the races, but like, the, the, the, the racist riot in 1921 was really, it was shocking to a lot of people because, yeah, it hadn't happened before in Tulsa. Yeah. And and if you think about it, like, it's logical because the black community had time to develop infrastructure and flourish and stuff like that because they're relatively just like, look, you stay over there, we stay over here, we'll figure this out. Yeah. And yeah, one of the kind of actually, one of the precipitating factors of that is that, like, in the weeks before the racist riots. Like, local white preachers and stuff had started getting very, very angry about the fact that white people were starting to hang out with black people in parts of town and, like, developing friendships and like, yeah, using each, like, and that was like, they were like, this has to stop. Yeah. It's like the weird part of, like, the Venn diagram of, like, racism and capitalism. Yeah. And just normal friendship to where you're like, I don't know, this restaurant is just, it's good food. So I came down here. Yeah, they're way better at cooking than my mom. Yeah, yeah, it's better, turns out. Contrary to what my uncle Dave told me, that's a nice lady. This is a nice dude that works here. I don't know. It's kind of cool. It's good food. It's good company. I don't understand the problem. You know, I'm. I'm starting to think racism might not be the right call. I'm starting to think maybe we benefit from having these folks in our community. Oh no. Now, now we're OK. Never mind. Time to shoot? Yeah, I I guess so. Yeah. So in the years after World War Two, large numbers of veterans of both races had come back to Tulsa. And armed themselves in fear of escalating interracial tensions in Muskogee. In 1916, an armed black crowd had stopped a lynching. In May of 1921, prior to the big racist riot, an armed group of black citizens had again stopped the lynching of a black man for an alleged rape. Now, about 25% of lynchings of black men nationwide were justified because the the crowd accused the black man of rape or sexual assault in some way. Now, only about 2% of incarcerated black people nationwide had were actually convicted of rape. So we can assume that the vast majority of these lynchings were unjust, right? Yeah, because the yeah. Anyway, what occurred in Tulsa later in May 1921 reinforces this suggestion. On Monday, May 30th, a young black man named **** Rowland got into an elevator that also contained a young white woman. We will never know exactly what happened. The most common story you'll hear is that he likely tripped and bumped into her and she freaked out and the police were called. There's a bunch of different stories around this. Nobody knows what happened, but white. Black Guy walks into an elevator with a white woman. White woman screams, black guy runs away. He gets tracked down and arrested by two officers, one of whom was black, and these men were sheriff's deputies. So **** wound up in the care of the Sheriff's Office, and the sheriff was a guy named Williard McCullough. He'd gotten his job as a result of the lynching of that white guy a year earlier, which his predecessor had let happened, and Williard didn't want to make the same mistake. So a crowd of angry white folks formed outside the jail, which is pretty much standard procedure in Oklahoma when a black man was accused of this kind of crime, the police chief. And again, there's a police chief and there's a sheriff. The police chief, a guy named Gustaffson, warned the sheriff to take Roland out of town. The sheriff refused, arguing that the kid was safer in jail than in an open car. And he may have been right about that. The police chief felt that moving him out of town would disperse the crowd, and he may have been right about that. We don't know exactly how it started, but, you know, basically a black. Out with a lot of guns, showed up next to the white crowd who had a lot of guns and at some point there was a struggle between an armed black guy and a white guy and the black fellas gun went off or he fired it again, we don't know. But it turned into a giant ******* mob of of white rioters gunning down black people, black people shooting back in self-defense. And yeah, it will continue to talk about how it gets worse. This is not an episode about the burning of Black Wall Street. We will have to cover that in more detail one of these days. But yeah, there are a couple of points I should make. I will say this before you get to this. There's like, there's an interesting thing that happened there all the way to Emmett Till and to like. This this particular moment is like just this idea of like. Weaponizing the white woman, you know, and in a, in a, in a. It's just this weird. Mix of just how social and supremacy and stuff like that works where it's like you can use her fear. You know, that was implanted in her. You know, I'm saying, uh, as an excuse to carry out violence towards black men, right, and play the whole damsel in distress thing, you know, I'm saying. And then them being their own white women, having their own versions of oppression, right, and misogyny being like, well, this is a way to get these men to do something for me, like a position of power. Which evolves into the Carens, you know, I'm saying, but it's just essentially like just you're you're it's almost like, yo, your oppressor has weaponized you and now you've become that, you know, I'm saying so just the like the awareness of just the. The mind scramble that, which is it's like I said, it's your own unique thing. Just this idea of like the voice of the white woman, you know, that is like there's there's history there, like, Karen don't come out of nowhere and but Karen don't understand that. You're being leveraged, you know, I'm saying, to carry out voices of, of of violence. And then now it's almost like now you're participating in that same violence, you know, I'm saying so, like, I don't know, it's just such an interesting thing, like how interlocking systems of oppression work, you know what I mean? Like, and how it all, like, keeps power in the same place, interlocking system. That's a really important term because I do think there is a tendency in a lot of groups to like, Oh no, racism is rooted in capitalism. Racism is rooted in you know, religion, racism is rooted in class racism rooted this or that racism is rooted has a lot of roots. It's like it's like a hedgerow. That's why it's so hard to remove like you have to dynamite like hedgerows were these gigantic sometimes centuries old like huge ******* plant walls that existed in exist in a bunch of places specifically like in France. During World War 2 they were used as like to stop tanks and the only way to get rid of a ******* Headrow because there's so many routes and they're so deep and so tough is to ******* dynamite it. Like he's gonna blow whole thing, grenade. Blow the whole thing up, right? Yeah, yeah. So, again, this is not an episode about the burning of Black Wall Street in Tulsa, but there are a couple of points I should make about Tulsa. In this. It was unusual for having a large, organized black community that controlled a really sizable section of town a Greenwood. And that it, you know, Black Wall Street, as it was called, had its own banks, its own theaters, a vibrant business community, good schools. And this relative prosperity was really unusual for black communities in the South, which is why it was called Black Wall Street. Another thing I should note is what historian Carol Anderson wrote in her book. White rage quote the trigger for white rage, inevitably, is black advancement. It is not the mere presence of black people that is the problem. Rather, it is blackness with ambition, with drive, with purpose, with aspirations, and with demands for full and equal citizenship. So powerful, man. Yeah, good book. That's powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The the the comedian clip that I forget homies name that was going around that were where he was just like look, man. We're asking for the bare minimum. Like, even the civil rights movement. That wasn't even equal rights. We were just like just just civil. Yeah. You know, just just basic. I'm just saying Black Lives matter. Yeah. Like, not like in they're not. I'm not saying they're important. I'm not saying they matter more than your. It's just just just matter, you know? Yeah. So like you said, like just and and and the ambition of Black America. Sparked so much rage, Michael. Yeah, Michael chase special. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's yeah so. Two large mobs gather at the courthouse again, 1 White, one black. The white mob clearly wanted to just murder Roland, who was the kid who, you know, got in trouble and you know they were in the mood to burn down the courthouse if the cops tried to stop them. The black mob obviously wanted to save their guy. And this was a tricky situation for the police, particularly since 2 weeks earlier the state attorney general had finished an investigation that described the Tulsa police as corrupt, poorly led and so poorly equipped that they had to borrow cars from their civilian friends to get to crime scenes. They were hitching rides. Like, not a great police force. So, so funny. The over when this all are ups into violence, the overall response of Tulsa's police to the massacre followed. Like kind of perfectly encapsulates the different ways US cops responded to lynching. Overall, Sheriff McCullough seems to have been probably kind of your best case scenario for a white cop in this. He had black deputies, he seems to have listened to their advice, and he basically spent the riot barricaded in the jail defending Roland. You know, his black prisoner so hard to I'm not going to. Call him a great dude, or like particularly woke or anything, but like does broadly what you'd consider to be the the right thing here. Meanwhile, the police chief Gustavson was pretty close to the worst case scenario before the riot even started. He looked out at a huge crowd of armed and angry white people, and a much smaller crowd of armed black people, and he called the National Guard to ask for their help to, quote, clear the streets of *******. So police chief's not the same as the sheriff here. Now, one of the first things that happened after the riot was that large numbers of angry white dudes gathered outside of the National Guard Armory to demand guns. The National Guard was like, that's not how this works, so you can't get. We do have some snow. We don't just hand out guns to crowds. Dude, why can't somebody be that guy? Like, why can't we interview that guy when they got to the door and him being like, Nah, no, no, I'm not gonna get. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Yeah. So, uh, this crowd, which included a number of uniformed police officers, went over to a local sporting goods store. This particular store sold ammunition to the Police Department, so the cops in the crowd knew that it was a good place to go to get guns and ammo. They broke in and looted it so that they could go murder black people. As the looting and killing worsened, the police chief called in his entire department and began commissioning special deputies, some 400 random white dudes who were given guns and legal authority by the police to go commit acts of horrific violence by dawn. The next day, the black community of Tulsa had pulled back to defend Greenwood, their neighborhood. A massive army of angry white dudes, described in media at the time as a force of citizens, police, and members of the National Guard numbering 1500, invaded Black Wall Street from 2 directions. They took unarmed black people into protective custody. They killed anyone who resisted. Once again, what had started as white violence had been portrayed by authorities as a ***** uprising, which is how like the local press covered it. And now this uprising. Was being squashed. The last resistance in Greenwood happened at the newly built Mount Zion Baptist Church when the armed Black Men barricaded inside refused to leave the police and the guardsmen burned it down. The Tulsa Police Department also enlisted the help of 6JN4 biplane aircraft. They claimed these were for reconnaissance purposes, but there is evidence that the planes were used to fire, bomb and strafe civilians in Greenwood. And. Yeah, I'm gonna quote now from Tulsa World and and a write up of the riot quote. Tulsa police also seem to have been involved in the mayhem. More than one witness identified officers, usually out of uniform, among the arsonists vibe. Bostick, a black deputy sheriff, was rousted from his home by a white traffic officer named Pittman, who then joined in setting fire to Bostic's House. I J Buck, a white Greenwood property owner, said a policeman turned him aside when Buck tried to save one of his buildings. He said. You ain't got no business building buildings for ******* Buck testified in court some 300 black men, women and children were murdered during the Tulsa racist riot. We will never know. They are currently in the process of excavating what they think might be a mass grave in Tulsa. Yeah, but we'll we'll never know how many people died. Probably. Hopefully we'll get a better count soon, but yeah, and, like, just try to like. Try to get your brain around. The the humanity of the moment. Like you're just, you're running barbershop, you at church. And a U.S. military plane. Yo. Well, own country, you know, I'm saying like a civilian plane that the police that the police were had commandeered. Yeah. OK. Yes, yeah. Billion playing at the police commandeered like. Is this just a a like you just bombed my church? Yeah, like, just try to, like, get your brain around that, you know? Yeah, Yep, Yep. Yeah. It's pretty. Yeah, like this is pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wonder how many listeners. Uh, of all races have never heard this, you know, I'm saying, yeah, like, that's the part that blow my mind. It's black people that don't know this, you know? Yeah, it's pretty ******* wild. And, you know, there are two cases that I'm aware of, of air power bombing, like of of people on American soil being bombed by armed airplanes prior to December 7th, 1941, the attack on Pearl Harbor, and it is the attack on Black Wall Street and the attack on the. White you? Well, no, actually, not just white, largely white, but definitely mixed race union miners in Blair Mountain. During the the Union uprising there, they were also bombed and had gas bombs dropped on them too. So those are the two cases before ******* Pearl Harbor that air power was used to to kill Americans. Stop by Americans, yeah, yeah, by Americans, sure, yeah. So yeah, in the months that followed the racist riot in Tulsa, Tulsa became the Nexus of KKK organizing in the state. There's a debate about how much role they played in in actually the racist riot. It was probably not super huge, but the Klan? Tulsa becomes like the ******* headquarters of the Oklahoma Ku Klux Klan in the wake of the racist riot and before much longer, Tulsa got a new clan backed sheriff, a client backed police chief. As did many cities in Oklahoma clan members of the City Council. And of course, the Klan bought brought with it violence not just against black people, but against Catholic and Jewish Oklahomans. The Governor of Oklahoma eventually had to bring the National Guard in again to deal with the Ku Klux Klan. So. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Tulsa ever again. Like, again, it goes to like the like God the clans all over the place. Like, why all of a sudden, why are we mad at Catholic and Jews? Like, when when did they become a part of the conversation like that? Even, just even you hearing, even hearing you say, it makes sense to me that the clan is like, yo, it's cracking over here. We'll go over here and get it, get it, get it cracking, let's take over the city. And while we're at it, you know, **** the Catholics. Like, **** the. Catholics, yeah. What the hell that got to do with anything, you know? Yeah. Yeah, Yep. So lynching. And again, I think really one of the ways to look at the racist right and told you is as a mass, a mass lynching. Like. Yeah. They lynched the entirety of Black Wall Street because they were angry. You know, the the that young woman screaming was the excuse. But it was anger over black success and organization. And there's stories of like, black or white people looting Greenwood after they, you know, arrested all of the black people in town. And as they were burning it down and coming out of black houses with, like, furniture and property and, like, angrily yelling like, these inwards have nicer things than a lot of white people like that. That was a big part of why they did this. Yeah, Yep. So it's like we want segregation. OK, cool. We don't want you to use our money. OK, cool. Damn y'all, segregated and using your own money. Guess we'll kill you. I guess. I hate that. OK, man, what do you want? I think it's pretty clear what they want. I think it's clear what we want. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty clear. Yeah, lynchings peak was probably in the 1890s, but it continued to be a massive problem. I mean throughout the 1900s. The 1920s were a pretty bad time for lynching. Most historians will tell you that lynching is best seen as a sort of non state auxiliary to Jim Crow, the civilian side of the enforcement of white supremacist laws. When the law fell short in the eyes of racists, it was time for a massive mob spectacle. Lynching generally was not just about murder. Victims were usually tortured to extract confessions, and the crowd generally took souvenirs and posed with the body of the murdered black person. These were often family gatherings that were announced on the radio now. I'm gonna quote picnics. Yeah, picnics. Very kind. Yeah. Go. Yeah. Go ahead and finish in your brain. I'm not gonna say. Just finish what you think. Picnic. What? The end of that. What that's probably your short for? Yeah. OK. Go on. I'm going to quote next from a book that will be a major source for this part of the episode, the color of the third degree by Sylvan Niedermeyer and he writes quote during the 1910s and to a greater degree from 1920 onward, the white elite of the South voiced growing criticism of the practice of ledging. This changed attitude was the result of the economic modernization taking place in the region, which was accompanied by efforts to bolster the business and political ties between the southern and northern states, along with an increasing orientation among the southern, white, middle and upper classes towards the cultural values of the north. This led in 1930, to the establishment of the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching a SWPL, or ask Whipple, under the leadership of Jessie Daniel Ames. These white women activists work primarily in church circles, and their tireless work against lynching these women disputed the traditional rationalization of this form of violence as a means of protecting white women and argued that white men were using the code of chivalry merely as a pretext to justify violence against African Americans. So that's good saying, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good work, good allyship, or whatever you wanna call it. 1920 was actually the first year in which more lynchings were averted by law enforcement than carried out. Between 1932 and 1940, two 290 lynchings were stopped by police. The activism of groups like *** Whipple helped helped reduce lynching through the 1920s, and while it saw an upswing during the Great Depression, the number of lynchings dropped precipitously by the end of the 1930s and for most of the last few decades, the anti lynching campaigns. Seen as a major feather in the cap of U.S. law enforcement, an example of both the police kind of modernizing and reforming, and of southern cops rising to the occasion to protect black people from violence. This is wildly inaccurate. Niedermeyer argues, with exhaustive documentation that rather than protecting black people from murder quote, law enforcement authorities in the South were generally taking initiatives to protect black suspects from being seized by lynch mobs. Now, the way they did this was by loading suspects up into police cars, which were a new thing then, and allowed for faster transport, and taking them away to distant jails. Law enforcement did sometimes use violence and even call out militias to disperse lynch mobs, but the anger that had spawned those mobs still had to be sated. And police say did it by making damn certain that black suspects got what those mobs thought they deserved, a swift and violent death quote. In his study of the state of Kentucky, historian George Wright comes to the conclusion that the number of executions of blacks carried out during the first decades of the 20th century continually rose, while the number of lynchings steadily declined during the same. Likewise, the findings of the political scientist James W Clark show a clear correlation in the 1920s and 30s between the declining lynching violence and the growing number of convicted African American offenders who were executed by state authorities. The available statistical data on the number of executions carried out in the United States. Between 1930 and 1970 also suggests the dwindling number of lynchings was tied to the growing use of the death penalty. Although there is no conclusive evidence to support the theory that lynching violence was gradually replaced by the death penalty, it can be said that the legal system in the South increasingly assumed the function of maintaining social control over the black population during the early 20th century. See, that is dizzying. Yeah. Hope y'all caught it. It's so dizzy. Yeah. It's it's like because if to to to try to sort that out is to go you're you're off kilter because like you said, you think, oh, it's cool, man. Maybe they're maybe these people are evolving and they're like, no, this is I'm they're just you just want control of your county and you just like. So the point is, Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. 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In this special episode, we sit down with Doctor Jane Goodall to hear her inspiring thoughts on how we can create a better future for humans, animals and the environment. Anything, particularly young children out into nature so that they can experience it and take time off from this virtual world of being always on your cell phones and so on. And get the feel of nature so that you come to be fascinated, then you come to want to understand it, and then you come to love it, and at that point you want to protect it. And then we'll come to the sort of healthy world that I envision as a good future for us. And the rest of life on this planet. Listen to amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Your mirabar matte courage already runs in your blood. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. Sisters of the Underground is a new scripted series about fearless women exploring the life and legacy of the Mirabal sisters, Dominican women who were brave enough to challenge decades of oppression. Together, they led their country toward a revolution against Rafael Trujillo, the brutal dictator who ruled the Dominican Republic for 30 years. Please, please help us has blood on his hands from executive producers Dania Ramirez and Eva Longoria. That's me comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of Michael Toura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I can't be having these. I can't be having the city think they got more power than me. Yeah, because I'm the law. So, but they're like, but I feel you, you know, I'm saying, like low key. I feel you. Yeah. I'm just saying you don't get to tell me what to do so when. So from the black perspective, do I do can I make any distinction between that mob and this jail? No, because I still end up dead, you know? I'm saying so and and then when we say. And then, like you said, all the sides with some of the other ones that mass incarceration and the death penalty and the law enforce. It's just, it's samesies this is what we're trying to say, and here it is, right in your history. It's samesies this why we don't make no distinction, you know? I'm saying that's why we keep saying. The the orchards bad. The orchards bad. You know, I'm saying it's going to **** apples. Yes, they're ****** apples. You know, you keep going away individual **** apples, hoping and then trying to point at one that ain't got ******. And I'm going, what? It's the. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you know what's not an apple filled with urine? What? That's why I've never heard of the term **** Apple. But that's great anyway. But I hope these products and services are not. Because they are not. They are not. That's our one line for advertisers. No apples filled with urine. This is Roxanne gay, host of the Roxanne gay agenda, the Bad Feminist podcast of Your Dreams. Now, what is the Roxanne gay agenda, you might ask? Well, it's a podcast where I'm going to speak my mind about what's on my mind, and that could be anything. Every week I will be in conversation with an interesting person who has something to say. We're going to talk about feminism, race, writing in books and arts, food, pop culture, and, yes, politics. I started the show with a recommendation. Really, I'm just going to share with you a movie or a book or maybe some music or a comedy set. Something that I really want you to be aware of and maybe engage with as well. Listen to the Luminary original podcast, the Roxanne gay agenda, the Bad Feminist podcast of Your Dreams, Every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Tanya Sam, host of the Money Moves podcast. Powered by Greenwood, This Daily Podcast will help give you the keys to the Kingdom of financial stability, wealth and abundance with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, Amanda Seales, Angela Yee, Roland Martin, JB Smooth and Terrell Owens TuneIn to learn how to turn liabilities into assets and make your money move. Subscribe to the Money Moves podcast powered by Greenman on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts and make sure you leave a review. Hi, I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the hosts of the science podcast stuff to blow your mind, where every week we get to explore some of the weirdest questions in the universe. Like if sci-fi teleportation was possible, how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence of emotions in animals like bees? Ants and crayfish. How would an interplanetary civilization function? Does free will exist stuff to blow your mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is time to come. Join us in the place where you belong, the stuff to blow your mind. Podcast new episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday. Bonus episodes on Saturdays listen to stuff to blow your mind on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back, all right. Cool. Alright, so when you really look at it through a gimlet eye, the inevitable conclusion one comes to an all of this is, you know. While police often enabled violence, you know of the Klan in the late 1800s, in the early 1900s, and with the race riots in 1919, you know, Tulsa 1921. While police often enabled such things on an individual level, collectively they were, more than anything else, powerless to stop this violence. Although you could argue they didn't try that hard, but they weren't really set up to stop that violence either. And to both the state and the kind of people who tend to become police officers, that lack of control over the mob was worse for them. Than whatever violence the mob was committing often white sheriff's and police chiefs were absolutely fine with killing black people with bugged them was the disorder because they just power people. In 1933, a sociologist with the the the Just tremendously unfortunate name of Arthur rapper, which, Oh my, that's a rough one to dry out of the name basket. Arthur Raper published a study that suggested lynchings were most often permitted by making it clear to the mob that the alleged offender would be quickly convicted and punished. Southern politicians came to rely on the death penalty as an easy way to appease the mob and avoid uncivilized violence. Local journalists supported the state in its massively increased rate of executions, seeing them as a victory for law and order. Yo, when I was so nice to teach high school, I taught high school. For a couple years I had ninth graders and one. Time we went on this field trip to LACMA to the Museum of, you know, the the the museum in in on La Brea. And so it's four teachers to 100 and 5014 year olds, right? So I had me and another teacher had control of half of them. So I got 75 freshmen, right? We're walking by the park and there's a dude selling like inflatable. Toys so like hammers and dolls and such like this and. At this point, it's 75 of y'all and two of us, they're gonna the kids are gonna beat each other with it. There's no you're not gonna stop these freshmen from hurting each other with these inflatable hammers. So my thought was OK. If they're gonna do it, they're gonna do it. Your your freshman and I'm not gonna stop you. And low key. It seems kind of fun. I'm not gonna lie to you. Seems kind of fun. So what I did was I broke them up into their homerooms, right? And made them be feuding clans. So I made them sin gladiators from their homeroom to the middle for the purpose of Aza greatest teacher ever. For the purpose of being able to make sure that no one gets actually injured. Right. So because the point. Is the same thing that this sheriff is saying. I just need to maintain order, right? Of course I don't want you to beat each other and well. I just don't wanna lose control is really the point. The point is, I don't wanna lose control because your momma gonna kill me if I lose one of y'all. Yeah, right. And I'm probably gonna lose my job, so I don't wanna lose control, but y'all gonna beat each other. So in my mind, I'm like, at least I can make sure. That everyone's engaged and I can then it's not everybody beating each other, but you all sent bladder is one of the funniest things. I really got reprimanded by the vice principal, but then the principal was like, you're brilliant. Yeah, it's like that again. Uh, still pretty problematic cop in England who was like, well, they were going to throw the statue in the river, and we could either pull it out of the river later and put it back, or we could beat a bunch of our citizens for throwing a statue in the river. And that seemed like the wrong call, you know? Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, this also dovetails into I won't go on to a long rant about my ideas for school reform, but why all children should be forced to carry claw hammers at all times in public schools and private schools for that matter. And all teachers to everybody should have a real big hammer. That's very important to me for a variety of reasons. Wow. Yeah, I'm I'm very pro hammer. I don't get into that. I just found. I just found the first thing we disagree on. There'd be a lot less statues, all kinds of statues, but a lot less of them. It'd be a great lesson on like pulleys and physics, though. I'll tell you that. Like, we would like, alright guys, this was this. This is the freshman second semester project. It's come up with the best pulley system to tear down a Confederate statue. Yeah, yeah, person that could do it with the with. The smallest little person in my room is able to pull down this whole statue. That person get the yeah, you. You pull, you have the little kids pulled down the statue, and then you're like. This is why aliens didn't build the pyramids. Yes. You figured this out and so did the Egyptians. Yeah, so did the Egyptians. Yeah. Alright, alright, alright, alright. We gotta get back to the the subject. So, yeah, in 1933, yeah, Arthur Raper published a study again. Like, yeah, basically that that Southern politicians came to rely on the death penalty as a way to appease the mob and avoid uncivilized violence. Now, you can't easily get a swift conviction if you have a real trial, obviously. Remember, the data we have suggests that the vast majority of black people. Targeted by lynch mobs were innocent of any serious crime. If this **** went to court, even a crooked court, it would take time. And during that time like it. Like if it if you were, if you were doing this the way police are supposed to handle cases like this, it would take a lot of time and they might off. Yeah, it might be off. And it's way easier if you go into court with a confession because then you're like, well, he confessed. So police in this time focused on securing confessions because they suspect. Confesses isn't really a suspect anymore. During the early 1900s, the N double ACP documented 51 cases of forced confessions in Southern states. These were a tiny fraction of the total number of cases, which numbered in the hundreds of the thousands. The N double ACP's resources were limited, and they were picking out specific cases that they were challenging in court, so these were a percent of what was going on in 3/4 of the cases they documented. The black defendants alleged that they had been tortured into confessing by the police the vast majority of these cases. Are either alleged murders or rapes. The color of the third degree goes into significant detail about a number of cases that illustrate this transition. One I want to highlight to you all is the case of the murder of Raymond Stewart in 1934. Stewart was a prominent white farmer and landowner, and he was found dead in his home in Kemper County, Mississippi. There were signs of a struggle. Almost as soon as the news got out, 200 people gathered in front of his home to look for the officers. Three young black men were eventually arrested. A lynch mob formed to go and murder them, which prompted the local sheriff to call an extra. Deputies and fortify the jail with machine guns and tear gas grenades. The National Guard was almost called in and a state of emergency was declared. In order to preempt white mob violence, the Sheriff's Department immediately set to torturing the absolute **** out of these three kids. Confessions were quickly obtained, but when the case actually went to Court One of the young defendants began to complain that his confession had been forced out of him, Niedermeyer writes quote. Brown, who is this one of these kids, testified that after his arrest he had been subjected to violent treatment above all by Deputy Sheriff Cliff dial to force him to admit the crime. He told me to come on out here that he had heard. I told I killed Mr Raymond. I come out of the jailhouse and I said I declare I didn't kill Mr Raymond. He said, come on in here and pull your clothes off. I'm going to get you. I said to the last that I didn't kill him. There was two more fellas about like that there and they was whipping me. They had me behind the cross chairs, kind of like that. I said I didn't kill him. They said to put him on again and they hit me so hard. Had to say yes, Sir, Mr Cliff Dial said. Give the strap to me. I will get it. He took it and he had two buckles on the end. They stripped me naked and bent me over a chair. And I just had to say it. I couldn't help it. As the court transcript shows, Brown supported his testimony by pointing to the injuries from the blows to his body. Question. They whipped you hard there. Answer Yes, Sir. I will show you. There are places all the way up. Question. Did you bleed? Any answer? Did I bleed? I sure did. Brown testified that after Dial had forced him to confess, he threatened him with additional. Meetings if he recanted his statement. Furthermore, he emphatically maintained that he did not kill Raymond Stewart. If I die right now, I am going to say it. I ain't never harmed Mr Raymond in my life. If they want, they can kill me because I said that. But I ain't never harmed Mr Raymond. Afterward, Henry Shields was called to the next to the witness stand. He was another one of the boys arrested. He testified that after his arrest he had been whipped by Deputy Sheriff Cliff dial in the Meridian Jail. Shields said that due to the relentless whipping, he eventually gave a false confession and declared that he had a hand in Stuart's murder. Mr Cliff dial and then come back that evening and whipped me. First I tried to tell the truth, but he wouldn't let me. He said no, you ain't told the truth and I tried to stick to it. He whipped me so hard I had to tell him something. Ellington, who was the third boy who was forced subsequently to the stand, also testified that he was innocent and had been. Forced to confess, he stated that shortly afterward of Stewart's murder started making the rounds. He was seized by a mob of roughly 20 people, several of whom were employees of the sheriff, including the previously mentioned Cliff dial. He said that the men had tied him to a tree and whipped him. He went on to say that a rope which had been thrown over a tree limb was then tied around his neck, and members of the mob pulled him up in the air twice to force him to divulge information about the murder. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty bad. It's real. Real ******* basically like, yeah, you know, from a practical standpoint, like, hey. You know. Umm. You know, rocket scientists, sheriff. You know, if you beat me, there's evidence. Yeah. So I can go, yeah. This right here, that's that's his buckle. That's where that, yeah. Came from. Rocket science. And then secondly, I think, remember that the to catch a murderer, the little series on Netflix. Remember how, like when they finally showed that interrogation of the little dude that clearly was autistic, you know? And. Yeah, yeah, they bullied him into saying something just so they bullied him into say it. Yeah. So. We'll talk about that in a bit because that there's. Yeah, that ties into this actually, rather directly. Yeah. Yeah. Like this. So, yeah. All that to say this isn't this is a normal practice of if. Yeah, if you treated your domestic partner the way that police routinely treat people in interrogations, they would have easy legal standing to get a restraining order against you and take your guns away. If you own guns like, yes, it's emotional abuse. So. It's worth noting that further on in their testimony, these boys made statements to the effect that a great deal of the local white population knew they were being tortured at the jail. Now they've been specifically taken to a separate, geographically isolated jail on the other side of the state line in order to hide the fact that they were being tortured. This was common behavior for police around the country, but at the same time it was important to the police that enough white people knew these black prisoners were being tortured to stop mobs from burning down. One of the jails under questioning Officer Dial did eventually admit to having beaten the boys. He said that it was not too much for a ***** not as much as I would have done if it was left to me. There's a lot that statements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, it's really black people can handle a lot. That's exactly what I'm getting into. This is part of a very long standing trend in in not just law enforcement, but white racism, the idea that black people feel less pain than white people. It's for one thing documented that black men and women are prescribed lower doses of painkillers by doctors for the exact same ailments as white people are prescribed higher doses. And this is like a large black doctors do this. This is a largely unconscious thing. It's it's so deeply woven into the fabric of our society. The idea that black people feel pain somehow less than white people. Yep. Yeah. I don't even maybe that's pithy comment there. Yeah, yeah, it might have something to do with police officers, for example, putting a knee on one of their necks for 8 minutes and 46 seconds. We assume we're fine. Yeah. Now, yeah. And you can draw a Direct Line from the whipping of slaves in the pre war S and like justifications for why that wasn't cruel, it was the only way they would learn, you know, they don't feel pain the same. This is what you have to do. You can draw a Direct Line from that to officer dials abuse to the fact that, for example, today Black and Hispanic people are 50% likelier in the United States to experience non lethal use of force from police. Yeah, Yep. All tied together by a string names piece. Yeah. Samsys. Yes. Yeah. Dial and his fellow officers insisted that despite the force used, all three black boys made free and open confessions to the murder. And this convinced the all white jury. Part of White convinced the all white jury is that a, a reverend who had been in the jail at the time testified that they had given free confessions. By the way, that Reverend repeatedly referred to all of the boys as *******. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, real unbiased religious official there. Yeah, yeah, guy. And again, I'm highlighting a single case because it is important for you to know. But also this happened in every state, particularly in the South, in a lot of parts of the north on a regular basis. Most police officers, particularly in the South, had similar participated in similar things. This was the norm. This was a common occurrence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they didn't participate like Officer Dial, they were aware of other officers doing it. That's probably more common than doing it just because most people aren't comfortable with, with carrying out random physical violence, even most police officers, but they let it happen and broadly support it. Yeah. Yeah. The fear that's already striking in somebody that's like, obviously the person you talk to is a sociopath, you know? I'm saying so like the fear of. Being like, well, I'm not gonna get in his way because he won't turn it on me. You know, this guy's crazy. Look at him. Yeah. This is full crazy, I mean, yeah. And of course he's not crazy. Officer Dial, I have no doubt, was completely in possession of his wife. Right. Mind. White mind. And not, not in any way mentally ill. He was a. He was enforcing white supremacy through violence in a way that was more effective and rational. Yeah. So the white jury, after a day and 1/2 of proceedings, voted to convict all three boys of murder and have them executed and thankfully. This was a case where the N double ACP managed to get involved in time. They appealed and the lives of all three young men were saved. So yeah, as happy an ending as the story of torture can have. Yeah, there's a there's a trial like right before Brown versus Board of Education that missed. Missed all the missed all the fame because of Brown versus Board of Education. When yeah, about the white jurors like being able to like the law of saying, like, I have a right to be, you know, tried in front of a jury of my peers. But it wasn't until after this case because our documents only recognize two races. So, so if this is the Latino dude and that's that's what the case was, it was a Latino dude who got in a bar fight with a Latino dude, right? But according to the eyes of the Constitution, Latinos are white until this case, right? So if you got an all white jury, they're like, but they still looking at a Mexican dude and he's like, dude, like, these are not my peers. Like, and then they're going, what are you talking about? You guys are both white people. It's like, well, no, you can't, you can't play it both ways, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? So, so it what's interesting about this case, like you said, is like there's clear evidence. There's obvious evidence. They, the dude that did it, said he did it. And then the jury acquitted him. You know, I'm saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the case that I just related to you was only exceptional because the some version of justice was eventually done thanks to the hard work of the N double ACP. Unknowable numbers of black men and boys were tortured and executed without the N double ACP ever coming to their aid. Just because, you know, that's not a criticism of the N double ACP. The resources were limited, playing whack a mole man. Like, yeah, it can't be everywhere, you know? Yeah, and the FBI did not start to really look into the problem of torture and forced confessions by U.S. law enforcement until 1942. And the Bureau does again get a little bit of credit for intervening to try and protect black Americans faster than any other wing of the US government. But as Neidermeyer notes, their efforts were limited in scope and saw very limited success and absolutely did not stop the problem or really arrest it in any major way. Some of this has to do with the history of police torture, and this is where we get into stuff that's both white and black history. Yeah, in in a in a in a way or a history of at least police abuse of both white and black people for all of the 1800s. In the first half of the 20th century, it was not illegal for the police in the United States to torture people. Charges could be brought against the cops if they committed assault or battery and breach of their regulations, but that was as hard to prove as you might suspect. Some states had laws to prohibit the use of violence to force confessions, but that was not an across the board sort of thing, Niedermeyer notes quote. As investigative reports from that date from this. Reveal, however, penalties were rarely imposed. Because district attorneys, judges, and jury members were highly reluctant to limit the power and authority of law enforcement officials. While the White press and the South generally avoided using the term torture in its reporting on cases of police violence during interrogations, the term was purposefully used by the Black Press to expose and denounce the violent abuse of African American suspects, often in a bid to gain public support for the fledgling civil rights struggle. A more common and prevalent term was the third degree, which was adopted as police jargon in the late 19th century and entered the General American vocabulary in the early 20th century. I'm gonna guess most people know this term, right? Yeah, yeah. As I say from the TV, from the gumshoes, yeah, I'm gonna give him the third degree. And what that means is I'm gonna torture the **** out of this is what he's saying. Yeah. Yeah, it's bad. Yeah, so yeah. And it it is like it it it is a term that was used to justify police to dress up police torture, something else. Torture sounds like a crime. Giving them the third degree is something that like a hard bitten but good hearted dragnet type cop has to do with. He doesn't like it, but I got to keep the city safe, you know. Yeah, yeah. The term really took off in the 1930s right alongside a massive increase in police use of torture. In 1931, President Herbert Hoover established the National Commission. And law observance and enforcement, better known as the Wickersham Commission. It reported that the third degree was used throughout the country, most often in big cities like New York, Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles. In the South, torture was used to control black bodies and white mobs, but in the urban N it was just used to make cop lives easier by guaranteeing them quick convictions. People at the time were rightly angry at this, and initiatives were enacted after the Wickersham Commission to reduce the use of the third degree. Police, for their part, denied that the third degree. Existed and warned that any additional legal restrictions on cops would cause crime to rise. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. They have one tool and they use it real well, you know? Yeah. Well, you know, you know, if you do this, then, you know you're gonna you know who you're gonna call. It's gonna be more crime. And as you hear Prop say that, imagining it's coming from the voice of a police officer actively pulling a man's fingernails off. Yes, yes. You know, yeah. For a long time, historians thought that government scrutiny successfully reduced the use of police torture. And maybe it did reduce it, but it did not eliminate it. And modern scholarship suggests that it just caused cops to get cagier and a little bit more clever with how they tortured people. One way to do this was to transition to methods of torture that left no physical marks on the victims. In 1930, a New York legal aid organization listed 298 cases of suspects who were brutalized by police during interrogations. Most of the torture. Victims were uneducated whites under the age of 30. A large number of those white boys were immigrants. While black people were a minority of torture victims in the north, they were a disproportionate percentage of the victims. 36% of New York Police Department torture victims were black men, and black people made-up only 5% of New York's population. So that's follow me now. That's pretty bad. Yeah, it's just, yeah, that ain't good, dog. When you think of, like, so when I think of, like, just just. Statistics of like, yeah, OK. 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And so alleviating poverty is tremendously important. Listen to amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Your miraval matte courage already runs in your blood. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. Sisters of the Underground is a new scripted series about fearless women exploring the life and legacy of the Mirabal sisters, Dominican women who were brave enough to challenge decades of oppression. Together, they led their country toward a revolution against Rafael Trujillo, the brutal dictator who ruled the Dominican Republic for 30 years. Please, please help us. Do you has blood on his hands? From executive producers Dania Ramirez and Eva Longoria, that's me, comes the powerful retelling of this all too relevant narrative. Listen to sisters of the underground as part of My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Times more likely if you're a black miner boy to be tried as an adult. And then and given the harshest like. The harshest possible sentence. It's like. I used to wonder like. OK, when like when did how did y'all pull this off? Like how like. I just. I couldn't. I couldn't do the math. Like, OK, so like. Why? Why? Why try us as adults like I I don't? I don't understand why you think and why us more than anyone else. And then you hear stories like this to where you're like. Well yeah I mean they, you know they routinely just, you know we could take a lot of pain and then they, you know, it's, I mean they've been torturing us for a while you know so like and now you know you go, you get to a time where you know post civil rights where like you say like you can't, you can't just leave physical. Marks and. Like? Kelly actually torture fools. We gotta figure out other ways to do it. You know, we just got so accounting about it. Yeah. Yeah, he's gotta. So you're continuing the process so it's like them getting cunning. As I'm trying to get to. Yeah. Them being cunning is the tradition. Yeah. Yes, yes. And them saying also this thing that you have extensive documentation of happening never happens and you're a liar. Yes. Believe us, we're the cops. Yes. And it gets, it gets, it gets worse. I'm going to quote again from Niedermeyer. The report by the Wickersham Commission highlighted numerous cases from Southern states in which police officers and sheriff's used batons, fists and whips to extort confessions from black suspects. The report. Also documented the use of the so-called water cure on black suspects, a forerunner to waterboarding that U.S. soldiers used during the Philippine American War 1899 to 1902. The water cure consisted of tying suspects flat on their backs and using a hose to force water into their mouths or noses until they provided the requested information and made a confession. Furthermore, the report mentioned torture methods on African Americans that included the use of electricity. One of these involved in improvised electric chair, which was used until 1929 by the Sheriff's Office and the Helena, AR. To extract confessions, the report also pointed to individual cases of police torture of people of Mexican origin and white suspects. The case is collected by the Wickersham Commission indicate that the vast majority of the victims in the South were African Americans, primarily men but also women. Moreover, they showed that police torture of African Americans in the South was already commonplace before 1930. Diverse historical studies confirm that this practice can be traced to the days of slavery. It never ended. They just got cunning. Yes. Yeah. There it is. Yes. Yeah. And I and I love like, I love how you're you're bringing out the idea that, like, we're not, we're not historical revisionists in the sense to say that this is a uniquely black experience. No, that's not to say that black have had, blacks have had a unique experience in this. Yeah. This is not a unique experience. No. This is a this is a continual abuse of power and a protection. Of wealth, resources and supremacy. Yes and and nobody is safe. Nobody is safe. That's part of the that's part of the thing people have started to realize a lot of like liberals who would have been broadly pro police, uh you know, have started to realize since getting tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets by the cops. Yeah, like, no, no, no safe. If you give them the right to violently oppress one group of people, they will start ******* with you. Yes, it's the whole it's the whole first they came for the. Communist and I was not a communist, so I didn't like. That's how it works. It's fascism. Robert, you know what isn't? Hopefully fascism. Oh God, that was the products and services that support this podcast. Yeah. Yep. Not fascism. All legally. Antifa, hopefully. Let's go. Yeah. I call the Union hall, I said. It's a matter of life and death. I think these people are planning to kill Doctor King. On April 4th, 1968, Doctor Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of his life in prison. Case closed, right? James Earl Ray was a pawn for the official story. These would parade all we found a gun that James Earl Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Doctor King. Except it wasn't the gun that killed Doctor King. One of the problems that came out when I got the Ray case was that some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster Chronicles Podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around underworld criminals and entertainers to victims of crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gangster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promote illicit activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because after all, she played gangster games, you are ultimately rewarded with gangster prizes. iHeartRadio is number one for podcast, but don't take our word for it. Find the Gangster Chronicles podcast on. By heart radio app or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York Times Bestseller Fair play and find your Unicorn space activists on the gender division of Labor attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor Edina Rucar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited to share our podcast, time out, a production of iheart podcasts, and Hello Sunshine, we're uncovering why society makes it so hard for women to treat their time with the. Value it deserves, so take this time out with us. Listen to time out a Fair Play podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. We're back, OK, so. The through line, the Direct Line you can draw from the use of force to suppress black people during slavery through the KKK and lynching to the third degree. That through line is critical. Because what ties all of this together is a desire by white people in particularly not just white people, but white moneyed people. In terms of who's organizing this to fight against the establishment of black autonomy and equality and sort of weaponizing the rage that white poor people feel over being poor and turning that in a racist direction anyway, there's a lot that goes into this historian. William Brundage, cited by Niedermeyer, sees white supremacy as continually contested terrain and when black people would fight back and gain the upper hand, however briefly, in this struggle, police were the most reliable tool whiteness had to fight back. This has been obvious to serious researchers for a very long time, Swedish sociologist Gunnar Murtle wrote in a 1944 study titled an American Dilemma quote. The policeman stands not only for civic order as defined in formal laws and regulations. But also for white supremacy and the whole set of social customs associated with this concept. It is demanded that even minor transgressions of cast etiquette should be punished, and the policeman is delegated to carry out this function. 1944 Gunner saw it. Yeah. There's don't say you weren't warned. Yeah. Yeah. People tried. Yes and yes. I love the idea that it's a Scandinavian country. Yeah. The whitest dude in the world comes over here and it's like, why? In the room goes, what are y'all doing? This is a problem. Yeah. The federal government and federal law enforcement made attempts in the 1940s and 1950s to push back against the torture and murder of black people by police. There were numerous investigations into different sheriffs and police departments. Some of these investigations even led to punishments. But as we saw in the red summer of 1919, at the end of the day black Americans had to rely on themselves in order to fight back. They did this in large part through the N double ACP. These cases helped to drum up both public awareness of the problem and public support for changes to the system you could drive to elect. In between the N double ACP spending decades fighting these cases and why the murder of Emmett Till caused a massive nationwide reaction, even among a lot of white people, it's because they had laid the groundwork. And you could make a similar case for not just the end of the CP at this point, but like, why specifically the murder of George Floyd finally caused what we're seeing now? Yes, because you gotta, you gotta go back from like from Rodney King all the way to Mike Brown. Yeah, this, yeah, this. Like it's a continual. Like, Oh my God, enough's enough. Yeah, you gotta really prepare the white. Majority to give a **** about the murder of a black person, is that just, I guess, negative looking at this? Yeah, 20 years. There's about 20 years to get away. You care? Yeah. So, yeah, and again, the N double ACP eventually was successful through a number of cases in in getting a series of Supreme Court decisions that significantly regulated and reduced the admissibility of forced confessions. And that's that had that helped. But again, regulation of the police in this regard, while it was a good thing, it did not cure the problem of confessions obtained under the third degree. It again just inspired the police to get subtler. Yes, in 1989, Gary. Hudson became the first wrongfully convicted person to be proven innocent by DNA testing, and Gary was white, if you're curious, in the decades since, more than 200 people have been exonerated by DNA testing. In 15 to 20% of these cases, police induced false confessions were involved. Overall, 12% of overturned wrongful convictions in the last 30 years have involved a false confession, which we don't call a forced confession anymore, but probably ought to. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, because no one falsely. Confesses? Yeah, they are forced to. Nobody's like, ah, you know, it's like you have a Fender Bender in traffic. Like I confess to rape. I'm so sorry. That was my like, totally. Just, like, wait. Yeah. You know what? My bad. Did I say? What did I say? I killed that guy. No, no, I mean, I didn't kill that guy. My bad. Oh, geez. You know, I thought was that Tuesday I thought you saw about Tuesday. Yeah. Nah. Nobody. No, no, I didn't say I admit to murder. I said I liked Fox Mulder. I've been watching rewatching The X-Files recently. It's my bad, you know, I'm saying. Like it's just a fumbling my words. Yeah, the most shocking example of this might be the case of the Central Park five also in 1989. In this case, a white female jogger was beaten and raped. 5 black and Hispanic children, all between 14 and 16 years old, were taken into custody. All 5 confessed, and then all 5 recanted their confessions, claiming they had only confessed after hours of terrifying and stressful police interrogation. They claimed that they had only admitted to committing the crime because officers had heavily insinuated they would get to go home if they did. All five were convicted and sent to prison. Donald Trump, then a prominent con man, repeatedly urged that the boy should be executed. In 2002. The real ****** confessed, and DNA evidence confirmed his guilt and the innocence of all five boys. They were released. The case of the Central Park 5 sounds remarkably similar to the case of those three boys in Mississippi, doesn't it? Yes, and it should seem very familiar with you because just because a certain, uh, yeah, certain elected official was invested in making sure that. They stayed in prison. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Uh and yeah. The case of the Central Park five. Yeah. In this case, the boys, you know, in in the case that we read earlier in Mississippi, those boys were straight up physically tortured. What the Central Park 5 endured is much subtler, but some people might call it torture. And this brings me to discussion of the Reid technique. The Reid technique is an interrogation tactic invented in 1962 by a former cop and a polygraph expert. You may recognize the 1962. Just right around the same time, the Supreme Court said y'all gotta stop forcing people to confess to crimes they didn't commit via torture. John Reed, the techniques creator, had a reputation for being the kind of guy who used psychology to get confessions rather than violence. The origin of his technique came from a 1955 case when a guy named Darrell Parker came home to find his wife raped and murdered. Parker was interrogated, and according to The New Yorker quote, Reed hooked Parker up to the polygraph and started asking questions. Parker couldn't see the movement of the needles, but each time he answered a question about the murder, Reid told him that he was lying. As the hours wore on Reed began to introduce a story. Contrary to appearances he said the Parkers marriage wasn't a happy 1. Nancy refused to give Parker the sex that he required and she flirted with other men. One day in a rage Parker took what was rightfully his. After 9 hours of interrogation Parker broke down and confessed. He recanted the next day but a jury found him guilty of murder and sentenced him to life in prison. Now, Reed was like, oh, this is the way we should always do interrogations. Yeah. Yeah. And he refined his strategy into a technique, which generally boils down to elaborately accusing the suspect of committing a detailed crime. After hours and hours of interrogation, Reid opened a consulting company which, by 2013, trained more interrogators than any other company in the world, working for everything from local police to the FBI, the CIA and the Secret Service. The company brags that the people that trains get their suspects to confess 80% of the time. Bro, just think. Think about what we telling you right now. Yeah, you have to be. A absolute, like, Navy SEAL level mental agility and fortitude to defend yourself when you're innocent. Yeah, like when I actually didn't do the thing. I have to be this skilled. Yeah, you don't say it. Which is why you wait for your lawyer. Which is why. Yeah, you have a right to remain silent. Use it. Just shut the **** **. Hmm. Yup. The read technique was used on the Central Park 5 and numerous other people who have confessed to crimes they did not commit. Now the Reed Company and its president will say that that is not accurate, that they were not using the read technique, and it's largely because they didn't do it right. That's what they claim is that, like false confessions are only the result of abuse or misuse of the technique because the technique has safeguards in it to make sure that no false confessions are obtained by it. So when people who are trained in the read technique get confessions from innocent people, it's not because of the Reed. Technique. It's because they were wrongly using the read technique. Ohh that makes it cool. Can you the pretzel you just put your body in? Yeah wow OK yeah. Would it be great to be able to just like. To be able to just with a straight face and know, like, soul, conviction. Your soul is so dead inside that you could make that sentence and be OK with it. Yeah. It's like if I have a school that trains people to fire over the heads of crowds with assault rifles and then some people fire into the crowds with assault rifles. Clearly none of that's my like, I have nothing to do with that, I said over the heads. I fled. Fire over the head. You shoot over the head. Yeah. There's a safeguard to make sure no one gets it. Wow. Yeah. So the read technique has started to fall out of favor in the last few really in the last few years. And 17 was when, like one big agency stopped sending interrogators and to be trained in it and it this, this seems to have like, you know, you mentioned earlier, I think it was to catch a predator. Right. Yeah. That that the like the the fact that a lot of interrogations are videotaped and that some of those came out and documentaries and people got to see, Oh my God. Is this what cops are doing that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is. OK, so it is still very common, still widely in use. But the tide might. It seems to be turning on the read technique. We'll see. It is not legal for police to beat the **** out of suspects, to force a confession. Not anymore. And I guess you could see even the Reid technique as an improvement over literal physical torture. But it is legal for police to lie about evidence, to withhold food and water from suspects for what I would consider to be long periods of time, and to subject them to verbal abuse and psychologically torture them until they see. Confessing is the only way out. I can't say if the read technique is responsible for most false confessions in the modern United States, but I can tell you the Police Department that is responsible for more false confessions than any other. You wanna guess? LAPD no. Chicago. It was gonna be one of the two, right? Yeah. Dang. Yeah. Yeah. No more than 30% of all exonerations that involve false confessions were people who confessed in Illinois State. And most of those were people who confessed to the Chicago PD. And the question to why is this happening has a lot to do with a dude named John Burge. Yes, yeah, yeah. So yeah. Like the a little little side note especially about what you what you're talking about, like how some of these confessions happen and how slick they are because like say for example. You hear on the news? That somebody died on 4th Street, right? So then when you get picked up and then cops go, hey, did you hear about the shooting on 4th St? And you're like, yeah. And then he goes, yeah, that the, that the lady was coming out of the house. And you're like, yeah, I heard that. First of all, the story wasn't that there was a shooting. The story was somebody died. So when he said, did you hear about the shooting, what he's doing is making sure you just confessed to information. They say he had information about the crime. And because you it's like, I didn't say shooting. You said shooting. Well, no, no, no, no, no. I just asked if you heard about you, said you heard about it. I didn't tell you this story isn't that there's a shooting. So, like, how slick? Yeah, that type of like practice is and you listen. I'm telling you this stuff out of experience, you know, I'm saying, like, somebody say, hey here, the liquor store got robbed down. Hey, you heard about that liquor store, Rob? Like, I had to learn to be like, Nah. I ain't heard ****. I don't hear nothing. I don't. I mean, I don't know. You know what I'm saying? What do you mean you don't know? You're not. You're square. You're not part of. You're not part of the streets. You know, I've seen you with your friends and I'm like, ah, Sir, I don't live here, you know, just like you have to, like, be. Yeah. Anyway. All that to say, this stuff is like, as, like, heinous as we're telling you. It's so subtle and it's so slick. You know what I'm saying? Like, everybody swears. Well. Well, if I was in the situation, I'm like, Nah, you you would do exactly what everyone else does in this situation. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why you don't talk and you wait for your ******* lawyer. Yes. Yeah. John Burke, John ************* Burge. Jon Burge is proof that the old tactics of the third degree still aren't as much a part of the past as some folks. Might like to believe John Burge was a decorated Vietnam veteran who served as a military police officer, working for a time as a Provost Marshall investigator during that conflict. After the war, he returned to Chicago and became a cop in 1972. He was promoted to detective. One year later. In 1973, he tortured his first victim. According to the Marshall Project quote, his officers had arrested a man named Anthony Holmes on suspicion of murder and wanted to identify him to identify an accomplice. When Holmes refused, the officers left him handcuffed in an area. New investigation room and went to find Burge. A few minutes later, Burge strolled into the interrogation room with a mysterious box in a brown paper bag. The box had a hand crank on one end and two wires with alligator clamps coming out the other end. According to trial testimony decades later, birds then picked up the alligator clamps and barked inward. You're going to tell me what I want to know. He fastened the alligator clamps and pulled a plastic bag down over Holmes's head, warning him not to bite through it when the pain hit. Then he started turning the crank. He was electrocuting him. Sheesh. Over the next few yeah yeah yeah. Over the next few years, Burge continued to be his department's go to torture man department. Rumors stated that he had learned the techniques he employed during his time in Vietnam on the bodies of North Vietnamese POW's. You what we call this fucose boomerang. The tactics used in colonial wars overseas coming back to the United States. Birge denies that he tortured anyone in Vietnam. He also denied torturing people here. So maybe you don't take that super seriously. Yeah. Yeah. He quickly perfected. What he called his inward box, which is what he named the box he used to electrocute black people, often electrocuting their testicles. I've talked to one of Burgess victims, and that's what Burger did to him as he electrocuted his testicles with his inward box. Yeah, there's, there's a there's, which is a whole other story I want to get to, but there's this weird fascination with torturing of, yeah, black genitalia with. It's very common in lynching, very common in lynching, that they would be severed and even taken as souvenirs. Yeah. And it's one of those. The eternal question, putting it through, how much detail do I go into? We could have done 6 episodes on lynching and it deserves 6 episodes. But I'm trying to give a broader no, I appreciate it like that. Not being mentioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a thing. Yeah. Because of his high case clearance rate, because he, boy, John's real good at getting criminals to confess. He's solving all these murders. Because of his high case clearance rate, John was promoted to Sergeant and then to Lieutenant and eventually to Commander John. Burge's behavior was not hidden from other men in the Chicago police. He kept his. Inward, box out on open display at a table in the police station. He trained dozens of other Chicago officers in his techniques, which expanded over the years to include electric cattle prods, simulate and simulated executions. Birges officers often beat subjects with telephone books, flashlights, batons and bats. They burned men with hot radiators and cigarettes. They put plastic bags over the heads of others and suffocated them. This went on for a very, very long time. The end began in 1982. When two police officers were murdered and Burge and his team tortured the **** out of a pair of Black brothers until they confessed, the injuries one of them suffered were significant enough that a medical official reported on them, and that was the first crack in the Burge system. Allegations of torture by Burge and his men, though, didn't break through the blue wall of silence until a 1989 civil lawsuit by the People's Law Office. One of the attorneys behind this case who later represented many Burge victims was Flint Taylor. He described the existence of Bergey's unit as. An unremitting official cover up that has implicated a series of police superintendents, numerous prosecutors, more than 30 police detectives and supervisors, and most notably, Richard M Daley, the city's former longtime mayor and a previous state's attorney. The whole story came out in bits and pieces through a mix of victims coming forward and anonymous sources within the department. One of these anonymous sources was a cop who left again, anonymous voice messages for Flint Taylor, Taylor and his fellows, nicknamed this Guy Deep badge. So part of the lesson here is that after 17 years of torture that was enthusiastically supported at every level of the Chicago PD, a couple of good cops did finally work up the courage to leave anonymous voicemails after a lawyer had figured out the basics of the case and publicized them. That's what good cops get you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's like, three of them. And then. And it takes me 17 years to do anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Birds was eventually accused of torturing more than 100 people, virtually all of whom were black, between 1972 and 1990. 1. That means recent. Yeah. At this point, we know that there's probably over 200 victims we will never know the true number of Burge victims get. A lot of these guys were executed. A lot of them died in prison. In 1993, the Chicago Police Board voted to fire John Burge. This interrupted plans the local fraternal order of police had made that same year to honor Burge and four other officers with the parade float. All of the other four officers were also accused of torturing people. By the time he was fired, Burge had risen to the rank of commander. He was not. Charged criminally until 2008 and not sent to prison until 2011, he got out of prison in 2014. Chicago has paid out millions of dollars in reparations to victims, but an unknown number of Burgess victims still remain in prison. Multiple people were released from death row as a result of all of this coming to life, but we will again never know how many innocent men were executed. Burge died in 2018. Four years after he was released from prison, Chicago's Police Union issued a statement on their Facebook page offering condolences. The Burge family and insisting it does not believe the full story about the Burge cases has ever been told, Dean Angelo's, former head of the Chicago Fraternal Order of Police, told reporters. I don't know that John Birch got a fair shake based in all the years and years of service that he gave the city, he insisted that Burge put a lot of bad guys in prison. 2018 The cops who believe this are still on the force. Just. Guys, they're most of the force. Ah, yeah, guys, yeah. You you're asking you're asking us to respect you, and it's like I would love to. I would love to respect. Yeah. Just do respectable things. Yeah. Yeah. You know who I respect? My my neighbor across the street who has never tortured several 100 people. That guy. I respect him. Yeah. He's he's earned my respect by virtue of being a human being who doesn't commit random acts of violence. Defend those that do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not hard to earn respect. You just have to not. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm sure that Burge did go to his grave believing that, like, what he did had been worth it because he again, put a lot of bad guys in prison. I I talked to one of bergey's victims, and this guy had an extensive, violent criminal record. When he wound up in Burgess hands, he had done bad things, and John probably figured, we've got a crime. This guy's a scumbag, **** it. He's got to be guilty. And oddly enough, that thinking, the thinking that John Burge probably used to justify his crimes, the thinking that the Chicago Police Department. And the Fraternal Order of Police in Chicago certainly uses to justify Burgess crimes even today. That thinking, these guys were guilty, that thinking puts them all right in line with the law abiding interrogators who use the read technique. Richard Leo, a law professor from the University of San Francisco, spent nine months sitting in an almost 200 interrogations in Oakland during the mid 1990s. He learned that most officers who again these guys were all trained in the read technique. He learned that most officers were skipping a critical aspect of the proper read technique. That aspect is having an initial. Interview with the suspect you're supposed to like, interview them, have like a normal conversation with them and kind of decide if you think they're guilty before you move on to the interrogation. I'm going to quote from The New Yorker again. The Reed interrogation technique is predicated upon an accurate determination during behavioral analysis of whether the suspect is lying. Here, too, social scientists find reason for concern. 3 decades of research have shown that nonverbal signals so prized by the Reed trainers bear no relation to deception. In fact, people have little more than coin flipping odds of guessing if someone is telling the truth, and numerous surveys have shown that police do no better. Aldert Vrij, a professor of psychology at the University of Portsmouth in England, found that law enforcement experience does not necessarily improve the ability to detect. Eyes among police officers, those who said they paid close attention to nonverbal cues did the worst. Similarly, an experiment by kason shows that both students and police officers were better at telling true confessions from false ones when they listened to an audio recording of an interview rather than watch it on video. In the experiment, the police officers who performed less well than the students but expressed greater confidence in their ability to tell who was lying. Cops will always tell you they know how to spot a liar. They are lying. Wow. Yeah, you can't really. There's no way to know. Yeah, there's no way to know. And I feel like in all my police interactions. And I'm saying this as someone with like. I don't. I don't think I have a criminal record maybe, you know, I'm saying, but in all of the interactions I've had, whether it was. Open overtly racist or very aggressive, or the guy was being a nice guy, or you just meet like like you guys playing a nice guy or you just meet like a. He's just like. This is like really a good dude that really doesn't care. He just, he's just doing his job, you know? I feel like I've had all of those, you know? I'm saying, but in the ones. Invariably, you know, you're being sized up. Yeah, you know. And it's like, so even them like this, it's just, it's sometimes I'm like, why are we playing this game right now like, this is you're you're horrible actors. I know what you're doing. You know, I'm saying, like and and then when you when I hear you say, like they were supposed to train, train to do an initial interview and I know this dudes trying to build rapport with me, you know, I'm saying and. And I'm like, I know this is OK. I know. I know what you're doing. Like I know what you're doing. OK? What time of day was it? Alright. Word. How tall was the guy? OK, cool. So I'm just, like, just get to it, man. Just get to it. Let me tell you, you want to know where I was? You want to know where I live? OK. Here's where I live. Here's what I was doing at this time. Tell me what time it was. I fit. What description? Can we just get to that rather than all this rigamarole? Yeah, yeah, I'm ranting. Yeah. So I talked earlier about how police tortured a forced confessions. Didn't stop. It just got subtler. Under pressure, and the same is true with the impact of racism and law enforcement. After Jim Crow ended, the most obvious justification for bigoted policing was gone, but the bigotry remained as it a system that was built almost completely during a period of time where either slavery, black codes or Jim Crow laws were the rule. In Minneapolis, where black people make up 19% of the population, they are subjected to 58% of use of force cases by the city's police. A May 2020 study showed that out of 95 million traffic stops. Nationwide, between 2011 and 2018, black people were vastly more likely to be pulled over than white people, except at night, when the gap shrinks considerably. Black people because, again, the cops can't tell what race you are as easily. Black people? Yeah, so they're not, they're not able to judge. This is a guilty person before the interaction. Black sheep, yeah. Black people are also more likely to be searched during a stop, even though white people are more likely to actually have contraband on them. I could go on and on, but the basic point. It's the same all of these cops, from officer Dial to John Burge to current police officers who are today 2 1/2 times likelier to shoot a black man than a white one. All of these cops are making, at a certain level, the same decision. They are judging black people as guilty before they know anything more than their skin color. And this is persistent through every single level of law enforcement in our country. Over the decades, activists and good lawyers and Supreme Court justices and even a few decent cops here and there have worked to make. Forced confessions, inadmissible in court. They have worked to report and charge police for torture. They have worked to tear down the Jim Crow laws that provided legal justification for a lot of police aggression. And yet the aggression is still there. We have learned to channel it and probably to make it less fatal. We've gotten better at punishing the most blatant expressions of it, but we have not stopped it. And American police today are still doing the same thing they have been doing since the 1800s. They are enforcing white supremacy through violence. Yep. I'll say this. And like. Yeah, I say this like on a personal note. So. My little brother, you know, not by blood, but we just grew up together and I lived in our house. Whatever. Just, you know, our families work. My little brothers is a California Highway patrolman. So. Confession I got law enforcement in my family. My brothers worked there for 1015 years. He's never pulled a gun ever in his life, right? Never has he ever pulled a weapon out. He is one of those ones, like you said, that is like reporting dudes. That's like building community liaisons. He does it after school. He lives. He's in the valley. He does after school programs, runs a basketball league. Like the people know him. So, like, so. So there's that. My father, you know, we talked about my father. My father was a Black Panther after he left the Black Panther. Party because they killed it, right? He maybe in the FBI? Yeah, they be in the FBI. My father was LA County probation officer. He worked with, like, underage defenders. Retired from there, right? So worked in the special handling unit. He wanted to deal with the violent list of young offenders. 30 years, 30 years. Never once recommended jail time. Never. Right. Because of what he's talking about, the systems. Designed to destroy these young black and brown men. So his answer was let me have them. I remember as a child like going to quinceaneras and and and GDGD, like graduations and stuff like that. But all these like random kids that I didn't know. Turns out they were kids on his caseload because he was shielding them from the system. He told me stories of like looking at the judge, telling the judge full well do not send this kid to prison. Do not send him to prison. The cop is doing the same thing. The cops arrested this guy, showing them. Showing them the transcript and being like this is a false confession. This kid is innocent. He shouldn't be on my caseload and then watching that fool go to prison. You know, I'm saying so when you, when you, when you even in us bring all those things up to say this is that. Even if you find good men and good women. The system is flawed, yeah. And this is what we're trying to get to. Yeah. The structure is wrong. Yeah. Yes, the the. The statement all cops are ******** I think has been tradition, like historically kind of unproductive in terms of actually getting people to to, yes, confront the real issues of of of law enforcement, but what people mean by it is actually very accurate, which is that it is, it is impossible to be. Like, even if you are a good person, a nice person who is a police officer and is legitimately aware of the problems in policing and trying to do your best, you are also partaking and helping to in helping to maintain and and and further a system that is fundamentally abusive and and enforces supremacy and period. We are not. What we're not saying is that all cops should never have a job in that that that like there's there's homicide detectives who are good. Solving murders. When we get rid of the police and replace them with something. I want those people to still be solving murders because it's good they still murders. Yeah. Yes, you know it. There are. If you know a a police officer who is a great person and is is an asset to the Community, that person should probably still be doing a broadly similar, a lot of the same things they're doing. But there shouldn't be. You know, you I talked to cops a lot. I've talked to a lot of cops we'll talk about, like, being forced to arrest people for simple possession of drugs, even though. They personally, yes, agree with ending the drug war and, like, that's the problem that you're forced to do it. And that's the we don't. We we decided as a as a species that just following orders is not a justification for violating people's civil rights. Yes. Yes. Think about when we decided that and why. Yes. And where it led and where it started. Yeah. Yes. You are hearing the cries of both my father and my brother, who both were like, I don't know if I could do this much longer. Yeah. Even in me trying, right, I'm trying to do the right thing. I'm trying to be an advocate for these young people. Like, I'm doing my best. Like at least they got somebody on their side, you know? I'm saying, and you're but you're still like, I'm still, I'm still throwing you to the wolves. I'm just giving you, you know, a protective jacket. But the point is I'm still throwing you to the wolves because the it's the the whole like, it's what you're trying to say. It's like the whole thing needs a grenade. Yeah, because. Again, like you said, I want to be able to call somebody. If my house is being broken into, sure. Of course I wanna be able to call somebody, but most likely who's breaking into my house is a meth head just trying to steal the PS4 because he wants to hit, don't kill the guy. Like just, I just want him out of my house. And you know what? I could probably, you know what? I probably won't call him because I could get him out my house because he's high. You know? I'm saying, yeah, yeah, it it's it's this. I mean, and again, when you actually, we'll talk about this some next week, but when you look at, for example, homelessness, you find out that. Plus, the state less money to give homeless people homes than it costs to police and incarcerate them. It costs less money to give drug addicts drugs than to police them and to deal with the results of them stealing **** for drugs. They found that on like Denmark, where they give heroin addicts heroin and it saves them huge amounts of money from Toronto too. Yeah, they have like safe injection zones. You don't have to police this ****. And in fact, most things shouldn't be policed. Maybe only violence should be policed. Exactly. If you don't like, I try to like as as simple as we can make it if my daughter comes in and she don't do her chores because she's got a cold. And I ground her. Rather than, say, here's some Tylenol. Like, you would be like, that's ridiculous. You finna ground her because she got a cold. That's stupid, OK? That's putting an addict in prison. You know, I'm saying it's like the this is do you what? Do you what are you grounding? That doesn't make sense. We're ranting. Yeah, we're ranting and it's it's time for some plegables to get plugged. Yes word, yeah. All my Instagrams and socials are prop, hip hop. Go to pophiphop.com for poetry, rap for some podcasts for some sustainable merch, some cups, some coffee if you want to. You want to support non corporate coffee? I'm a coffee head. Hit me up. Let's talk about like, Jeff Tweedy and Cigarros because I am the most. Unicorn, any black dude you'd ever meet that I can talk to you about? Cigarettes. And I am. I'm gonna keep reading and writing about police for another week or so. Yeah. And I don't know, we'll talk about Bill Cooper or something at some point. Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk. We go have y'all for some, like for some light, like a like a dictator, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Military about somebody. Somebody fun, you know? Well, somebody not connected to my own safety. And, yeah, we'll we'll do we'll talk about Chairman Mao or somebody. Somebody who's who. Yeah, everybody loves a good chairman Mao story. Ohhh my God. Or maybe Tito. Ohh, Tito. Yeah, give me some Tito. Yeah, Ohh, Tito was cool as hell. I mean, he was a monster, but he was a cool monster. He was still talking about ********. But the point is, yeah, yeah, we'll we'll do something more lighthearted, but you can find firstname.lastname@example.org where there will be sources for this episode, including the really important book, the color of the third degree and all the other really important book, the end of policing. Both of which are important, if not easy reading. Well, actually, the end of policing is very easy reading. The color of the third degree is some rough ****. Yeah, and you can find me on Twitter at Irido. OK, and go be a good person and disband the American system of policing. I'll do both of those things, ideally today. Yeah, Amen. Shall we collect offering? Behind the police is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What grows in the forest? Our imagination and our family bonds? The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you at discovertheforest.org brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our family bonds the forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you at discovertheforest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. After 30 years, it's time to return to the halls of W Beverly High and hang out at the Peach Pit on the podcast 9021 OMG. Visit Jennie Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly Hills, 9021 O. From the very beginning we get to tell the fans all of the behind the scenes stories that actually happened. 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