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Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:00
In Episode 95, Robert is joined by Dan O'Brien for an update on the Jeffrey Epstein saga.
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Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting dreams, let's break or handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioural discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Survive on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio, this is La Monstra, a story of abomination and conspiracy. The story about the man who simply become known as. Lamaster. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to behind the ******** the podcast, where I'm Robert Evans and we talk about bad people and I introduced the show poorly. This is a an episode about Jeffrey Epstein, and my my guest today is Daniel O'Brien. Dan, how you doing, man? Hello. Thrilled to be talking to you for a third episode about Jeffrey Epstein. Jeff Stein? Yeah. That's what I've decided we should call him now. Really? Really thought we sort of closed the book on this one the last time. Has there been any updates? Yeah. You know, Dan, it's been a busy year since we last talked. A lot has happened. You won an Emmy? Uh, I went to Syria and our friend Jeffrey Epstein had some big had some big things happen as well. Yeah, you have to you have to offer a bunch of retractions for your last episodes because it turns out he was exonerated on all counts, right? Is that the news? Ohh, no, Dan. Slightly, slightly different than that. He he either killed himself or was murdered in a prison cell after being arrested at an airport and charged with. A whole a whole bunch of crimes. Yikes. Yeah, not a great year for Epstein. I would imagine you have an order in which you want to proceed with this episode, and that me jumping in right now and asking you questions is disrupting that in some way. No, I feel like I don't care right off the top. Do you have strong opinions on suicide versus murder? I have strong opinions that the case for murder isn't nearly as strong as a lot of people think it is. I think there's a lot of people misunderstanding, in some cases deliberately, what has actually been revealed. That said, there's definitely some fishy *** **** and it's it's not unreasonable to want an investigation into it. I'm leaning towards. Suicide though. And I suspect most of the listeners think he was murdered. So this will be the. Where are you on this? I haven't thought too much about it, to be completely honest. That seems healthy. Yeah, it's. I'm sure a compelling case could be made for either side. I don't. Doesn't quite matter to me, I guess. Which is probably sounds callous. I don't think you can be callous about a mass child ******. Like, I kinda think you can do whatever you want. Uh, when talking about Jeffrey Epstein, as long as you're not talking about how good an art collector he was or something like that. Yeah, I mean, if if not, not cause like it's not I have no respect for. Jeffrey Epstein I don't. I don't give a **** but, uh, the fact that I clearly don't care. One way or the other means I'm implicitly saying I don't care if someone can sneakily murder someone and get away with it. And that's not a good stance to have. I should have an ideal stance to have. Yeah, yeah. It's uh I don't know like so I I guess we should you're probably aware of so a lot of the things that have recently come out. I think the the most recent big story about Epstein is actually been a couple in the last week. The most recent is a Project Veritas video from your your old alumni James O'Keefe. Did you ever run into him at Rutgers, by the way? No, I did not. OK, that's good. That's probably good for everybody. He seems insufferable. Yes. So he put out a video of ABC News anchor Amy Robach, and in the video, she claims that the network quashed an interview she conducted with a source about Jeffrey Epstein's like a child prostitution business that involved, like, Prince Andrew. And kind of suggested that ABC had, like, pulled the story due to threats from like, Buckingham Palace and like a number of other powerful people. And so this is like this, this has been pretty prominent on the Internet. And like, I think the way that most people have framed it is like, oh, James O'Keefe actually got a scoop is a clear example of ABC News killing a story to protect Jeffrey Epstein and the powerful people that he provided prostitutes for. And I'm not going to say that's 100% not what's happening, but. They really don't think that's what's happening. So I I should start by, I'm going to, I'm actually going to quote an NPR article here that that kind of gives the response from ABC. So we'll start with that. ABC News executives say their journalists were simply not able to corroborate the details of their reporting sufficiently for broadcast. We would never run away from that. Chris Vlasto, head of investigations for ABC News, tells NPR the network has filed approximately two dozen digital and broadcast stories on Epstein since early 2015, when ABC started talking to the accuser, Virginia Roberts. You free so. There's a good point there, which is that if you're trying to say ABC was unwilling to talk about Epstein, that's really hard to support because they've actually done a lot of coverage of this case and the idea that like, OK, well, we we weren't able to back in 2000 like it was to them 15 when this video was or sorry, 2019 is her talking about this. But I think she was frustrated that like they hadn't gotten the story out earlier and broken the story. But I like there's legal concerns when you're reporting something like this and you're alleging. That, like a Prince, is part of a child sex ring. And like, a bunch of very prominent, very wealthy people have been committing horrible crimes. And there is like, your legal department is going to look over something like this in addition to your editorial department and be like, OK, either we have enough backup for this story to move forward, or we don't think we can safely drop this yet because we don't have enough, like, evidence to support it, right? I mean, it sounds like another case where. See, it's on the Internet. Saw how professional adult does a thing, kind of simplified and misunderstood it, and then applied it to something else. So, like, we can see, oh, NBC actively covered up this Ronan Farrow's reporting on Harvey Weinstein, which they did. And then the the idiots of the Internet, though, the idiots of the world, the James O'Keefe and whatnot, the trolls and stuff, they'll look at something that seems like it shares some of the DNA because they're like, hey, big news network, something, something something. Handled something something something. They knew part of it and they didn't tell us these things are the same thing, which is not the case. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, on the video, Roblox says, I tried for three years to get it out to no avail. And now these new revelations and I freaking had all of it. I'm so ****** right now. Like, every day I get one more ****** because I'm just like, Oh my God, what we had, it was what we had was unreal. But when the video leaked, she made a public statement. As the Epstein story continued to unfold last summer, I was caught in a private moment of frustration. I was upset that an important interview I had conducted with Virginia Roberts didn't air because we could not obtain sufficient corroborating evidence to meet ABC's editorial standards. About her allegations, the interview itself. While I was disappointed it didn't air, didn't meet our standards and the years since, no one ever told me you're the team to stop reporting on Jeffrey Epstein and we've continued to aggressively pursue this important story, which they did again like the network launched like a two hour documentary and like it. Like they they they've they've covered this a lot. It's one of those things like. I I'm, I'm. I'm certainly open to the possibility that, with his connections and power, Epstein had an in at ABC that tried to quash the story at some point. That's certainly not impossible, but I'm not seeing evidence of that. Like I'm seeing evidence of it's hard to go after billionaires and Princess and royalty and politicians when they commit crimes if you only have one source because, like, you can get your *** sued for that stuff like, it's there. Yeah. I I think people are blowing this out of proportion. I think I think you're right to connect it to, like, what happened with Ronan Farrow, because that is a case of where he came in with this big story and they tried to quash it for very sinister reasons. And I think O'Keefe was pretty smart to launch this pretty fairly shortly after, like Ronan Farrow's book came out because I I do think those two things have been connected in a lot of people's heads. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's talk about Epstein's suicide murder. Yeah, that'll be this will be fun talk. He's just sitting with my buddy Dan talking about a murdered or suicided multimillionaire financier, prostitute, child pimp. Oh, I guess I should try to get ahead of this, because it sounds like going to cover some pretty dark stuff if people are easily. Triggered by by talk of child molestation and Oregon suicide. I also just knowing myself I will probably make suicide jokes. I don't think suicide is funny or a laughing matter and should always be taken seriously. But because of the way my brain is wired, it just might happen. I'm just putting the warning out there. Yeah, I I had to physically fight myself to stop from just quoting the lines from the mash theme song as a response to you, which I I didn't do and I'm proud of myself. But I might later. OK, Umm, yeah. There's a number of things that people find really fishy about the Epstein suicide. Probably. Like, one of the chief things is the fact that he was taken off of Suicide Watch, which seems really damning. Like, why would you take this guy off of Suicide watch? He seems like a clear case of the kind of person you would be worried would commit suicide. And in fact, a number of like, corrections like, like people who have have like worked in prisons and stuff, like they have come out and said that. This was a dumb call to remove him from Suicide Watch, Cameron Lindsay, a former warden who worked at three federal facilities told NBC. For them to pull him off Suicide watch his shocking for some of this high profile with these allegations in this many victims who has had a suicide attempt in the last few weeks, you can take absolutely no chances. And I I think this seems conspiratorial to people who don't really know how the the justice system worked and I I kind of think this is just a situation of where Epstein was treated like a normal prisoner. He was not removed. Just out of like, laziness. Like he had a face to face meeting with a Doctor Who determined that the suicide watch was not warranted anymore and removed him from it. And, you know, basically he convinced a doctor that he wasn't a risk after his suicide attempt. And you can say that that shouldn't have happened or that like it it was a bad guy was certainly a bad call. Like it was obviously a bad call, but this sort of thing is incredibly common. We actually don't know how many people die in of suicide in prisons right now. We only have data up to 2014 that feels like something we should get a better system doesn't handle, doesn't it? Yeah, we only have data up to 2014 because in 2014 suicide in jails and prisons in America hit a 15 year high and became the leading cause of death in jails. And after that the Department of Justice stopped providing us with information. About suicides in our jails for some reason, which is that might be more of the conspiracy in my head that they're hiding this, this information. Yeah. Suicide accounts for a third more. Yeah, roughly a third of all deaths in in jails and in 30% of all deaths in state prisons. It actually jumped 30% from 2013 to 2014 in state prisons. Oh, sorry, it's 7% of deaths in prisons. It jumped 30% over the course of 2013 and 14. And we don't know how high it is now, obviously, but it had a 30% leap over the course of a year in 2013 and 14, which is huge, the AP and the University of Maryland's Capital News. Service recently conducted an internal investigation where they found hundreds of lawsuits against local jails talking about suicides, like against local jails, because inmates had committed suicide. And that was that's just in Maryland. You know, the Marshall Project used public records laws to find suicide data from the Bureau of Prisons, which show a rise since 2015. But again, they had to use, like, FOIA requests and stuff to get that data. Nobody's like publishing it normally. It's a huge systemic problem, and it might be like the single largest problem with American prisons. I found a really good quote from David Father, who is the director of the National Prison project at the ACLU. In most prisons and jails I've seen, and there are exceptions, suicide prevention as a joke. We have seen people able to attempt suicide. Supposedly on constant suicide watch. We've seen people taken off Suicide Watch because staff thought they were OK and then killed themselves that same day. We've seen officers who were supposed to be watching someone on Suicide watch actually sleeping. So this **** happens a lot and it can't really be overstated just how big of a problem this is. I know that's just what you've been doing, but just yeah, only because I've been researching this for a future upcoming thing at work is that as mental health treatment facilities closed down, more and more people in need of mental health end up in jails. And I know in a few cases, the county jail is the largest single provider of mental health services, which is. Not great, yeah. And I think 1 area people get when they when they see this removal from Suicide Watch for Epstein is something sinister, is sinister. And like a conspiratorial way. I think what actually is happening here is that for the first time in his life, this guy got treated like everybody else, and that's what happens to everybody else. It happens to a **** load of people in prisons and jails. They kill themselves. And I you can look at it as the deep state wanted him dead and so they had him moved from. Suicide watch and like, you know, told him that it was either this or someone would murder him and then he did it, or you can look at it like, oh, he did the thing that like, 30% of people in his situation do or something. Like, you know, a large chunk of people like it's. Yeah. Now, one thing that is legitimately sketchy is that both of the cameras outside the jail cell where Epstein died were broken, which is sketchy as hell. I'll give everybody who's on the murder side that that *****. Super fishy. It would be hard. Yeah, it's another one where, again, I don't have all the information. Like, that's exactly immediately at its face value. It sounds sketchy, but I've never done the research to know just how well maintained security cameras are. Exactly. And again, there's not. It's not like there's data on this because the Bureau of Prisons doesn't give people data on ******* anything. Yeah, so. Maybe something's there, maybe not. Uh, I I I don't know. I'm gonna. We're we're we are now moving on to the part of the episode where I have an actual little essay written. Because because, Dan, did you run into a story at the end of last month where a what you mean a forensic investigator who observed the Epstein autopsy said that it was consistent with homicide? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you did you look into that at all? Of course not. OK, good, good, good, good, good, good. Yeah. So that happened last month, and a lot of people shared it on Twitter, including myself. And we're like, oh, this is OK, I guess it maybe he was murdered. Like, now we've got some ******* hard evidence. And then a couple of my fans were like, you should look into the guy who actually declared it a homicide, the the the specific investigator. And I did, and he's quite the dude. Dan, you're you're going to like this. You're going to hate this, actually. But oh, bad. I'm going to read this to you anyway. So national reviews coverage that their headline was forensic investigator Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy more consistent with Homicide, Fox News wrote. Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy more consistent with homicidal strangulation than suicide, Doctor Michael Baden reveals now. Even the New York Times has coverage seemed to point towards a pretty damning revelation. They said Epstein's autopsy points to homicide pathologist hired by brother claims now, as that hired by brother part might suggest. This guy is not a totally independent analyst. Uhm yeah, because the Epstein family is very much taking the line that he was murdered. So I looked into this guy, doctor Michael Baden, and he spent the last like week or so doing a pretty brisk business and media appearances. He was on Fox and friends like right after this, and he claimed that Epstein's injuries, particularly the broken hyoid bone in his neck, are, in his words, extremely unusual and suicidal hangings and could occur much more commonly in a homicidal strangulation. OK that that feel like the word could there is doing a whole lot of work. Yeah the word could is doing a lot of lifting and more commonly is also also holding some water. Now he he told Fox and Friends which is where all great forensic investigators go to drop their research. I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, but yeah really popular. He told them he hadn't seen injuries like this in a suicide in 50 years of doing autopsies. And if you just look at this guy's. Credentials, Dr Baden. Credentials. On paper, it does seem like he knows his ****. His website notes that he was the chairman of the forensic Pathology panel of the US Congress Select Committee on Assassinations. He helped to reinvestigate the deaths of JFK and Martin Luther King Junior. He was asked by the Russian government to examine homicide on those two also. Yeah, he he should. He should. He sure did actually suicide on JFK. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't. I don't have more of a joke there. But I'm sure you can piece one together. He was asked by the Russian government to examine the remains of Zara Nicholas the 2nd and his family, which I feel like we know how that one went down, but, and he's conducted more than 20,000 autopsies and Todd homicide courses for police, judges, lawyers and doctors in most of the US and at least nine other countries. So that's a pretty, pretty good resume, I would say. Pretty solid resume, more autopsies than I have carried out, certainly. Yeah, but I've only. Carried out three or four? Yeah. Yeah. Now, that's the overview of Doctor Baden's career that his website presents, but it leaves a couple of things out. So before we make any conclusions about this most recent wrinkle in the Epstein case, I want us to take a look at this guy's record. But before we do that, Dan, you know what it's time for? It's time for goods services. Yeah, goods services, products. Time for an ad break. So don't think about Jeffrey Epstein. Hanging himself in a cell and instead think about capitalism. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. There's no luring you in with free subscriptions or streaming services that you'll forget to cancel and then be charged full price for none of that. For anyone who hates their phone Bill, Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for just $15.00 a month. Mint Mobile will give you the best rate whether you're buying. Or for a family. 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I believe it was 18 months after I got on with speaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. Always felt like an ambassador. Speaker but that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. You get paid to talk about the things you love with Spreaker from Iheart. We're back. Oh man, those products. Can't wait to ******* put them in my mouth or whatever. Ohh, you like the products? I was a fan of the services. Yeah, but that's the great thing about America is the freedom now. Speaking of freedom or not Speaking of freedom at all, let's talk about Doctor Michael Baden's career. In 1979, while he was the chairman of that Congressional Committee on Assassinations, he was also the chief medical examiner for New York City. Now, that's a really prestigious posting because New York is America's largest city, and I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but all of its citizens are very talented murderers. Yeah. And it's also, I don't know if you know this, but it it never sleeps, so there's not always murder happening. Yeah. It's just it is a murder factory. That's, in fact what they call it on the streets. Here. Yeah. Taking the taking the taking the A train into the murder factory. I don't know if the A train goes into New York. I don't know if there's a train. I don't know about the subway, Dan. Hey, it was a good joke and you were wise for making it. Thank you. Thank you for your approval. Now, Baden had been promoted to that very prestigious gig in August of 1978 after more than 10 years as the deputy chief medical examiner. Mayor Ed Koch, who promoted him, told the New York Daily News that he had known doctor baton since 1966 and found him to be very capable and innovative. Now, Mayor Koch changed that tune less than a year later, according to New York magazine. Too many unforced errors added up, including a picked apart trial testimony in the Doctor X case, leading to the acquittal of Mario Jessica Lovich in a spate of poison murders at Riverdell Hospital. A Housing Authority patrolman whose January 1979 murder went undetected for 12 hours, his body removed from the scene before proper death investigation, conflicting conclusions related to the chokehold death of a Brooklyn businessman at the hands of police, and off the cuff comments about the possibly sexual interrupting. Death of Governor Nelson Rockefeller. OK, so he ***** up a bunch of really big cases. And more than anything, I think that got him fired. It's the fact that he started a rumor about the death of the former governor. Like, there's this rumor that Nelson Rockefeller died ******* which is a great way to be rumored to have died if you have to be rumored to have died a certain way. But like that, the origin of that rumor is just doctor baton. He was doing rounds at Lenox Hill Hospital and was just like, you know, the. The governor died having an orgasm. Just is that a cool humor? Like, I understand that sex is pretty cool, but is that a is that a cool death rumor? I don't think I'd like that. You don't think? How do you wanna be rumored to have died? Uh. Not ******* I guess. You know, like or like like. Because that seems like it's going to be traumatizing for the person I'm with. And just a real mess to clean up, you know? And yeah, I don't wanna leave this, this, this plane as a burden to many folks. I mean, I I get there's the the the association of all. He died doing what he loved. But yeah, it'd be much cooler if they were like, yeah, he he. He just finished ******* and then he got hit by a bus. I guess, I mean that's yeah, that's still a lot of men I I get if I had, if I if I had to be rumored to have died in a in a spectacular way I would want it to be like. Skydiving and fighting some sort of cryptozoological animal like Bigfoot like that. That would be if if a if a medical examiner is going to create a rumor about my death, I would want it to be something cooler than that. You know? I think I'd probably just want something that was very out of character for me so that it would just confuse everyone around me, just like. In a a big game hunting accident, or Oh yeah, he died. He he hit a dunk in the Warriors game and he just like fell off the rim. Weird people like Daniel can dunk. I mean, it sucks that he's dead, but he he just dunk. He died doing what he loved. Fistfighting rhinos in the Serengeti. Yeah. Yeah, he dropped three of them before they got him. Right. Or like, yeah. Rumor is he was poisoned and they were like, oh, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, some people might not like Daniel, but but he's got poisoned enemies. That's very fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Polonium. Like, you wanna you wanna go with, like, the government poisoning thing, right? Really? Yeah. Yeah, OK, so people were ****** at Doctor Baden for for for no discernible reason, dropping a rumor that the governor had died *******. Which is a weird thing for a professional doctor to do. He was also in trouble because he had this really ugly habit of constantly losing crucial evidence, and I'm going to quote the New York Times here. And they're talking about a case, the people versus Levine. The defendant was indicted for killing Miriam Winfield. Several important pieces of evidence were recovered the deceased fingernail clippings, her dress stained with blood, a blue towel and knife, and telephone cord, which apparently was used in the murder. All the items were lost. Perhaps as distressing as the loss itself was doctor Baden's attitude, which was characterized by the assistant as unknowing and uncaring about the significance of the loss. When the assistant came to Doctor Baden's office to discuss how to salvage the case in light of the lost evidence, he was not so politely told to leave so. I mean this. This is again. I hate to keep beating this drum, that is. Superficially, at face value, sketchy and weird and damning if you don't know anything else. And I mean the reason I know this is just from. The reason I like adopted this attitude is because I I work on the most. There's actually a lot more nuance to it than you'd think. Show in the history of not TV. It's HBO. Like, we did an episode on on coroners this year, and that's how I know that, like, it's very common for coroners to. Lose things or misplace important things or bungle things just because they're it's position that's like written into constitution. It's a very old position. Not a lot of people know too much about it. There are a lot of people who are unqualified just because it's an entire industry where there's there's not enough oversight and regulation because there's no one interested in doing that. So you hear these wild stories like a coroner who. Accidentally, not accidentally, he cremated this John Doe on purpose. And then he realized from watching the news that the John Doe that he cremated was Michael Jordan's father and he was missing his this high profile abduction case. And the coroner was just watching the news was like, Oh no, I think I burned that guy. It's like it's good, Lord, it makes you think. He's a terrible coroner. Until you really like. No, it's it's like a very it's a very troubled industry, yes. So, like, maybe this guy is. Worse or being flippant, this this this fellow we're talking about now, or maybe he's just like another symptom of this this this broken system. I think both of those things are true because number one, I think like he definitely he got fired. So whatever. However normal it is for these guys to lose evidence, he was doing it more than was normal and and obviously had other issues like randomly talking about the governor's **** death, but also the guy who replaced. Was fired within a year or two also. So you're right, this is like it it does. It does kind of seem like there aren't a lot of people who are great at this job, but he was not great at the job. I do think that's fair to say because, you know, he got fired from it a year in for ******* up a bunch of stuff. Now, I should note, Doctor Baden denies losing anything he he claims, like in the specific case that I quoted, that the decedent was brought in nude and that he went through hours of meetings about the lost evidence and that he wasn't. Happened about it. I wasn't there. I was even born. So I don't know what happened. I can tell you that District Attorney Robert Morgenthau and City Health Commissioner Reynaldo Ferrer accused Baden of sloppy record keeping, poor judgment and a lack of cooperation. Morgenthau called him cavalier and unproductive about lost evidence. So this is at least what the people who work with him say about him now. Mayor Koch demoted Baden back to deputy examiner in August of 1979, Baden sued the city for unlawful termination and was reinstated as chief medical examiner. 1980, But this didn't last long because the suit was brought up to another court and the verdict of the lawsuit was overturned and he was fired again. And as it stands right now, an official legal terms, he was bad at being the city of New York's chief medical examiner. That is what the courts decided. OK, so that's that's that job now. Doctor Baden moved to Suffolk County next and he was made the chief deputy medical examiner there. He lasted less than a year at this job as well. In December of 1982, he was fired after an article in Wee Magazine. Quoted him giving advice on how to commit murder using undetectable poisons. Hey. I don't know. I love undetectable poisons. Sure. And talking about them and I'm sure it was a fun article, I can see why you wouldn't want a chief medical examiner giving murder advice. I can understand why that would frustrate people in the government. Yes, certainly. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't call that ideal behavior from a coroner. That said, I'm sure it was a fun article. Now, Baden denies having ever even given the interview. The reporter later admitted that he'd used Baden's words out of context, but I really don't know exactly what happened here. Again, I wasn't there. Suffolk County did offer to take him back, but Doctor Baden decided to move on, so he built a new career for himself, this time as a celebrity medical pathologist, a coroner to the stars. So yeah, he's a bad guy. Yeah, he's not a great guy. Know everything I said about nuance? He's bad. He's gonna go to hell? That that's not really the job you pick if you're like. A good dude I I think now for the next several decades up to the present day, whenever someone famous would die or get murdered, you could be pretty sure that Doctor Michael Baden was going to be there to take a 6 figure consulting fee for the defense or the prosecution in the court case that resulted. His first big case was the overdose death of John Belushi in 1985. A New York Times headline at the time makes it seem like this was about the easiest gig. Pathologist could have, quote pathologist sites heroin and death of Belushi which. Like, not not a real stretch. Now the prosecution in that case was working to prove that Kathy Evelyn Smith should stand trial for murder since she'd been the one injecting Belushi with drugs. Testifying for the prosecution, Dr Baden said that if not for the heroin, Belushi would not have died that night. And she did get in a **** load of trouble for that, which I don't know, I don't have a strong opinion on. Like on one hand, she definitely helped him do the thing that killed himself. On the other hand, if you read a lot about John Belushi, he was going to die that way. With regard if someone was not injecting him with heroin. Like he was. He was making horrible choices in that last couple of years and it seems like everybody around him was pretty aware of what was going on. Yeah, yeah. Really sad story. Yeah. I mean, I feel, I don't feel qualified to wade into that kind of. Yeah and obviously like that one you look at like his role in that. There's nothing sketchy about that. They they brought him in to rule on whether or not the fact that she was injecting with heroin was a factor in his death and it was and he he ruled it seems accurately on that one. So that's that's and the the Los Angeles medical examiner concurred with him here. So it's hard to view this as anything but an accurate assessment of the evidence. Now over the next decade Dr Baden mostly stuck to safe cases where there was little danger of his work doing anyone damage. He investigated the death of the Czar and the murder of the Lindbergh baby. Interestingly enough, Doctor Baden claims the Lindbergh baby never had a fractured skull. He believes it was smothered. No other pathologist seemed to agree with him, and fractured skull is still listed as the baby's cause of death. I don't know how the baby died. But he had a take on the Lindbergh baby. You're leaving a lot of blanks in your reporting there, Evans. I tried to dig up the Lindbergh Baby's corpse. It turns out that that is hard to do and also considered ghoulish and horrible. So I learned a lot of lessons working on this story. Yeah. And I I'd like to apologize to the Lindbergh family finally. Finally, yeah. There's a lot of things I actually should apologize to them for, but that's that's personal. Now. Doctor Michael Baden didn't really run into trouble in his new field until 1995. Now that is the year you might remember this orenthal James Simpson went on trial for murdering 2 human beings. Now, prosecutors contended that the attacks had happened very quickly, and this like the fact that he had killed his victims very quickly. But was necessary for the prosecution's timeline to be accurate, OJ had to have been able to drive back to his home before 11:00 PM on June 12th. So like, it needed to have been a quick murder. So it became part of the defense's job to show that the murder had taken a long time because of the murder had taken a long time rather than being short, and the prosecution's timeline was ****** **. And then it would be easier to get OJ off. You know, you're you're trying to disrupt whatever case that the other side is making, so the defense needed to be able to show that it had been a slow, drawn out affair with a later time. Death, which would have, you know, helped exonerate OJ and make his side of things seem more credible. Just a nice casual reminder that in high profile murder cases, both sides are going to be like, you know, it would be really helpful if these were the facts and you've got. Yeah. Professionals were like, yeah, OK, then I'll make them. We'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. You'll pay me how many hundreds of thousands of dollars? Yeah, of course. Yeah, exactly. And that that was that was his job. That was Doctor Baden's job in the OJ Simpson case, the chief coroner of LA, the guy who was not getting paid. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. To to weigh in who was, you know, it was just his job to weigh in on murders. Told jurors that he believed that a single attacker had murdered both victims very quickly after lying and wait in the house. So OJ's defense needed to counter this conclusion by the LA coroner, and they went to Doctor Michael Baden for that. Baden slammed the LA Coroner's office for performing a crappy autopsy and argued that Nicole Simpson had struggled and was not unconscious when her throat was slashed. He claimed the wounds on her hands were defensive. He also argued that the cut on OJ's hand was not meaningful. And I'm going to quote from the Chicago Tribune now and trying to minimize the cuts importance Baden revealed to the jury for the first time since Simpsons conflicting story about how he injured his hand. During an examination of the week after the murders, Baden recalled that Simpson had said he'd cut himself in Los Angeles, rushing to pack for a business trip to Chicago. He said he wasn't quite sure how he had cut himself and noticed he had been bleeding, but didn't know how it came about. Baden testified he recalled some blood after trying to retrieve his phone or some material from the Bronco. Now since defense attorneys have previously argued that police must have planted. Simpson's blood in his driveway in foyer Baden's revelation could help the prosecution, but Simpson told the Doctor he cut the back of his left middle finger when he smashed a glass in his Chicago hotel room and anguish upon learning of his ex wife's murder. He said he was at a sink or something and squeezed or broke or banged a glass along a sink top and somehow cut the back of his finger. Baden said prosecutor Brian Kelberg suggested that Simpson's account of how he got the cut doesn't hold up under scrutiny. How, in your opinion, can somebody get a cut on the back of their hand by slamming a glass down without having any cuts or injuries on the palm? Kilberg said. Baden countered that Simpson could have brushed the broken glass. The back of his hand, then, Kelberg displayed photographs of Simpson Chicago Hotel bathroom shortly after he checked out. No blood stained the broken glass shards in the white sink or a white towel crumpled to one side. Do you see any evidence of blood in those photographs? Kelberg asked. No, I do not, Baden said. So that's interesting. He he didn't do a great job. He kind of ****** ** for the the defense and also like that. The reason I read that whole cross examination case is it makes it really clear it's his job to defend OJ like when he gets hired on one of these cases, he's not giving his unvarnished medical opinion. It's his job to help the defense. And that's what he was like. He was arguing for the defense there. Yeah, that's what this guy does. So again. When this guy says Jeffrey Epstein was murdered in is hired by his brother, he was hired by Epstein's brother. To say that Epstein was murdered like, that's pretty clear. Now, in 2007, Doctor Baden wound up at the helm of another high profile Hollywood murder case. This time he was hired by the defense for record executive Phil Spector. Now Spectre was charged with shooting actress Lana Clarkson to death in his gigantic mansion, a crime he absolutely committed. He's still in prison for it and will be until he dies. Now, one of the most damning pieces of evidence supporting this was the fact that Spector's jacket for the night had Clarkson's blood on it. Now, this made the defenses case, which is that she'd committed suicide with. Spector's gun seem less likely now. Doctor Baden slid in to explain this away. He argued that although he'd attended her autopsy 4 years prior, he'd recently concluded that her spinal cord had not in fact been severed by a bullet, making it possible for her to have spewed blood on Phil Spector. After shooting herself in the face during cross examination, the prosecutor asked Doctor Baden if he had any conflicts of interest in this case that might impact his testimony. He said none that I can think of. You wanna you wanna guess as to whether or not he had conflicts of interest? I think he probably did, but I I'd like you to confirm that for me. Yeah. Yeah. So he he he kind of did. His wife was one of Phil Spector's defense attorneys. Cool, that. That might be a conflict of interest. I'm not a a law guy. Wait, his wife a law doer? Yeah, his wife. Doctor Baden's wife was Phil Spector's defense, one of his defense attorneys. What am I doing wrong? How come I can't get a wife? Have you tried? There's something for someone, for everyone out there, you know, they have a a pretty cute story. Have you have? Yeah. Oh yeah. We'll talk about it in a little bit, but I want to talk about your romantic issues. Have you tried defending Phil Spector in court? Cut in court? No. OK. Just just socially. I know you. You're a big Spectre fan. Yeah, like, I, like I I host a semi regular. It's like dinner, slash, variety show and my salon where people come and perform that. Some people just their performance is the food that they bring for everyone. Like, we all share everything. It's a very, very chill group. And I, for the 10th time in a row, I comprehensively defend Phil Spector. And like, I don't. I think I'm just doing it for the love of the sport at this point. Because no one's challenging me. Yeah. Mostly convinced the group. Yeah. Well, that, I mean, thank you for your service. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really a noble endeavor. I can think of no one who's been railroaded by the justice system more than Phil Spector. And it's just a nice night. There are no phones. We put our phones in a bucket and just just celebrate ourselves and our talents and the truth. Yeah. I I have a similar regular get together, but to argue that Michael Jackson. Was murdered and yeah, yeah, it's nice. It's nice to get together with friends and. Talk about celebrities and crime. I don't know where this bit supposed to go. You know where this it's gonna go, Dan. And actually right into products and services. Ohh sick. I love products. Products? Yep. And and maybe a service or two. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless starting at just 15 bucks a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Mint Mobile just has premium wireless from 15 bucks a month. There's no trapping you into a two year contract. You're opening the bill to find all these nuts fees. 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Com behind my name is Erica Kelly and I am the host and creator of Southern Freight true crime. There are so many people that just have no idea about some injustices in the world and if you can give a voice to them you can create change. To be able to do it within podcasting is just such a gift. I believe it was 18 months after I got on with speaker that I was making enough that I could quit my day job. It was incredible. I always felt like an ambassador for speaker. But that's because I'm passionate about podcasting. It's really easy to use. I always tell people I am so not tech. Took me 5 minutes to get comfortable with spreaker, and when I find a new friend that has an incredible show, I want them to make money. I want them to be able to do what I did. Follow your podcasting dreams. Let's break your handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Get paid to talk about the things you love. Spreaker from iheart. And we're back. We're back. And we are talking about a variety shows, Phil Spector. And actually we're, we're, we're, we're, we're talking about Doctor Baton. It's time to get back into that. So we, we just talked about his lovely wife who defended Phil Spector in court and his lack of conflict of interest as a result of that. Now, Doctor Baden has spent a lot of his career in a world where accuracy is less important than showmanship. He was the primary analyst for the HBO series autopsy for all nine seasons of its run. And he was like. On screen presence. For that he wrote two nonfiction books, natural death, Confessions of a medical examiner, and dead reckoning, the new science of catching killers. He also co-authored 2 fiction books with his wife remained silent and skeleton justice. Love it. Love those titles. Now, these are interesting stories, Dan. Both books center around a dynamic duo, New York City deputy chief medical examiner Jake Rosen, and Philomena Manny Manfreda, a beautiful, crusading attorney. According to Amazon, the two fall in love and solve murders. I love that. Yes, it's pretty great. I love that in his fantasy fiction he gives himself the job he got fired from. Yeah, that's very, very sad and sweet. Yes. So I'm going to read from the Amazon description of the book Skeleton Justice, which is just a great title, Jake's careful forensic examinations, Manny's courtroom tenaciousness, and an unusual clue suggesting that a high-ranking politician has risen from the grave. Take the pair from the bowels of the morgue to the world of international intrigue. At the heart of this story is a tragic tale of corruption interlaced with cover ups. Conspiracies, death squads and dictators who committed crimes that to this day go unpunished. O there you go. Yeah, I think a cool thing for listeners to do at home if they, like me, didn't know what Michael Baden looked like and just decided to look for the first time. Now this is the this is the right time to do it. Yeah, he is you. You definitely wanna picture him ******* a crusading and beautiful attorney? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know? You know what he looks like? Who is that ******* the warmonger guy that used to be part of Trump's cabinet? And or then he got and he got fired with a mustache. Bolton? Yeah, Bolton. He looks like if Bolton, like, ate his sadness away for like 9 months. This is how Bolton would look. He's, there's a Wilford Brimley quality to him, but like, yeah. Brimley ask for sure a maintenance to it, but he's certainly. He. It's my brain is doing a Mandela thing because he he feels very at place in Trump's cabinet. Like I'm not positive that he's not on the cabinet somewhere. He just, yeah has that look that they all have. He could be the secretary for Health and Human services, like like I'm looking at a picture from right now pointing at a graph at a press conference and like, yeah, he does it the way a Trump guy would point out a graph. Like, it's weird to say that, but he's he's got the exact. Yeah, it it he does look like that. Yeah. My God. What a what a what a fella. Now, in more recent years, Doctor Baden was hired by the family of Michael Brown to analyze his autopsy report and testify. His report concluded that there were no signs of a struggle and that Brown had been shot 6 Times Now, this is a more or less consistent with the other reports on Brown's death, except for the fact that he stated with certainty that Brown had been shot exactly 6 times. A lot of doctor Baden's colleagues critiqued him for this because it's actually really hard to tell in a case like that, especially when someone shot like right over concrete. How many times? They were shot because the bullets tend to Pierce them and then ricochet back, so it often someone will have six holes in them, but they only have been shot three times. So NBC talked to a pathologist who was very critical of Baden for state and confidently how many times Brown had been shot. He said Brown was way too confident for someone who hadn't seen X-rays clothing or lab reports, all of which can be important. It was also worrying that Brown had been embalmed because that would alter the color of the wounds, potentially throwing off Biden's analysis of entry and exit wounds and his count of 6 bullets. It could be that only three bullets made those wounds. Pathologist said so I I quote that not because, like, he was wrong overall. Like, Michael Brown wasn't struggling. He was murdered, obviously, but like the fact that he's talking about exactly how many times the dude was shot when he can't have known that. And like, as this other pathologist note, he didn't see the X-rays, the clothing, all of all of this context that's critical to actually making an accurate assessment of a case. He didn't know that. He just wanted to have a take because it was his job to have a take, and so he he gave a take without having the information he would. Actually, it's. It's fun to have takes dolphins are girl sharks. See? Look how much fun I'm having. Dolphins all are are in fact, girl sharks. That is the official stance of this podcast. And I I think it's fair to say the official stance of iHeartMedia. Hell yeah, yeah. I can dictate corporate policy RE dolphins. That's in my contract. Now, the fellow pathologists are generally pretty critical of Doctor Baden. One former classmate of the doctors who also worked as a medical examiner said this of him. He is very bright, but he has a propensity for giving out statements and testimony which are not entirely accurate. Doctor Lowell Levine, who was the Co director, I mean, I don't think you need to. Compliment sandwich that you know he's he seems very clever or whatever. He's smart guy, but he lies all the time. Yeah, he's a good doctor, but his patients always die. He's dangerously unfit with tremendous consequences. But his book Oh my God. Ohh the ******* in that book, I I will tell you, if you wanna come while reading someone else's fantasy fiction, that's the book. Yeah. Doctor Lowell Levine, who was Co director for pathology for the New York State Police and, like, alongside Dr Baden and worked with him, said this. Michael never saw a camera he didn't like. He used to yell at me about the press. They're just trying to make a living. Why don't you help them? So this is a guy who likes being in front of cameras. He likes the attention. It's not just about the money. It's also about being a part of the story. Yeah. A trait shared by all the most normal, balanced people, all of the healthiest people in the world. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it shouldn't come as a shock that Doctor Michael Baden. Found his way into the employ of Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He did not conduct an autopsy on Epstein. He did observe the autopsy and again, the bulk of his case that Epstein was murdered centers around the fact that Epstein's hyoid bone was fractured in three places. Baden calls this very unusual for suicide and more indicative of strangulation, homicidal strangulation. Interestingly, Baden has recently claimed that the Doctor Who performed the autopsy didn't sign off on Epstein's cause of death as suicide. Doctor Baden claims the call was made by the chief medical examiner for New York City, which is the person holding the same job. You got fired from doing, you know, he insinuated on Fox and friends that this was strange, but the reality seems to be that for a case this high profile, it's not unusual for the chief medical examiner to want to make that final call and to not make that call just during the autopsy. Because again, like that other medical examiner stated, there's other **** outside of the autopsy that you look at to try to determine what happened. So it's not really weird that things would have proceeded this way. Rolling Stone interviewed Dr Judy. A pathologist and she pointed out that hyoid bone fractures happened in suicide too, and that depending on the placement of the rope, it would not be at all weird for this for have happened to Epstein. If the fractures are nowhere near the ligature furrow, and if there are defensive injuries on the arms, and the case is more consistent with the homicide being covered up than a suicidal hanging. If there are no other injuries to the body, and the hyoid and thyroid fractures correspond to the location of the furrow, then it could realistically be a hanging suicide. So again, he doesn't really give you all of the context that a professional who's not making money. Not just trying to get in front of a camera is going to give you Rolling Stone also spoke with Doctor Priya Banerjee, who's another forensic pathologist. Her comments are interesting to me, particularly in light of the criticisms made against Doctor Baden after his work on the Brown murder. The reason we do full autopsies is to make sure that the outsides and the insides correlate and that everything makes sense. I always do an autopsy with a skeptical lens. In addition, any death in custody is scrutinized and fine detail to evaluate what led to the person's death. Now, Banerjee agreed that the broken hyoid bone was worrisome. Definitely worthy of further investigation, but she didn't go on TV and say that she thought Epstein's death was probably homicide because she's a responsible medical professional. Sure doesn't really sound like she has a future in the field. No, she's not going to be making OJ Simpson money, that's for sure. Doctor Sampson, who's the chief medical examiner of New York who declared Epstein's death a suicide, continues to stand behind that conclusion. She pointed out no one finding can be taken in isolation and referred to the complete investigation conducted by her office as opposed to just the autopsy that doctor Baden witnessed. So like that's that's the story of Doctor Baden. I I'm not saying Epstein wasn't murdered. I'm not saying I know what happened. I'm saying that like all of this **** that keeps coming out that people take is damning stories is is more indicative. Of like the media cycle around this and the need for there to be stories about it than it is about a smoking gun because there's just not one. It's like in a lot of cases, it's worth knowing the source of this. Statement. It's it's important to have the context of like yes, he said this and. You know, there is a chance that Epstein was murdered, but like, look who you're listening to. Yeah, you're listening to the guy who was hired to say that. Yeah, yeah. It's his job. And that's that's our fun story today. Are you? Are you? Are you happy, Dan? Uh, yeah, I'm always pretty happy. Happier than you were with the the last Epstein episode. Much happier than I was the last Epstein Epstein episode. And not just because it was wildly depressing last time and he's ******* dead now, but Yep. I have to digest so much news for work and a lot of it is either very breaking news about something that happened that week or news that has just. Stories that have have been building for years and years and have hours of footage around them that I don't get to keep up with everything. You know, I miss so many things and I like that I could just sit down with you and you could tell me the the news that I missed. It's very, very helpful. Yeah. And now you know. The rest of the story, or slightly more of the story, has this changed how you're leaning RE suicide or murder for Epstein? I think I'm leaning suicide. I I'm not gonna take the stand on that or anything like that, but everything you've laid out makes a pretty compelling case for it. Yeah, I'm not going to take a strong stance either because the dude did have dirt on 2 presidents, including one sitting president and like a royal family member and like, that's just the top of the list, so like you have. Look, there's a lot of people who wanted the *** ** * ***** dead. But like I'm not seeing any evidence for that yet. And I think people need to chill out and. A trust that like we're we're just not gonna get any good information about this for a while. It's just going to be **** like Doctor Baden trying to stay in the news, so. That said, I also think, I think you'll convince listeners like me who knew a little bit about this but not too much, that there's not a conspiracy there. But I think the people who already believe this is a conspiracy and they're like, **** it, Hillary Clinton killed Epstein with her hands. That's like, they're they're they're lost, man. You're not going to get them. Yeah. And shake that belief. I yeah, it's we all know, like Hillary Clinton did 9/11, but I don't think she killed Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That, like, I think we should all just stop living in this, this conspiratorial world and start trying to make sure that she, she faces justice for her 911. Yeah, it was so crazy when when everyone was like Hillary Clinton, Benghazi, which, you know, she did do. Benghazi also the whole time. I'm like, guys, there's a bigger fish. What are you doing there? There's 911. We've all seen the pictures of her flying those planes into the towers and parachuting out. She did both of them. Yeah, she is. I mean, in fairness to her. An incredible pilot, yes. Like one of the greatest of her generation. Yeah. It's a shame she used her powers for evil. Yeah. Well, that's gonna be all for us today on behind the ********. Uhm uh tweeted us with hashtag Hillary Clinton 911 justice. Oh yeah, I'm sure that'll that'll lead to some really fun mentions for both of us. Dan, you got any plegables to plug? Yeah. The the season finale of the show that I write for will be on that week and then we'll we'll be off for a couple of months for our nice hiatus. So watch the season finale. It's it's very. A lot of people, a tremendous amount of people, work very hard to get every episode of this show on to your TV or. Or phone. And so watch because because a lot of us loosely making it now the show that you work for is is last week tonight with communities. John Oliver. Yes, that's right. Did I not mention the name of the show? You did not mention the name of the very popular and influential TV show that you write for and won an Emmy for writing for. I'm so ******* cool. Oh my God, that's punk rock. That is. I gotta ask, with the Emmy, do you wear it around your neck ever? Like when you go to the gym? I found when we like the night you win the. Wait, you they just hand it to you and then you walk around with it because you don't go like the hotel is far from where the Emmys are, so you just go to the parties carrying this Emmy. You're at the governor's ball in the HBO party and the last Week Tonight Party with an Emmy in your hand. And strangers, some of whom are famous, will say congratulations to you. So. I've just never left the house without it. I don't have it on my neck or anything like that. But but as soon as I discovered that people say congratulations to you when you hold an Emmy and and my brain was like more of this, please. I've just. I mean, it's filthy cause I have not let go of it. But yeah, if you see me in the street with the Emmy, say congratulations to me, please. Oh yeah. No, I will. But I will not shake your filthy Emmy hand. No, no. Well, that's Dan. Give him congratulations on his Emmy and. Ask him how various famous people smell in Casey's. Met them and sent them. Yeah, Evans, talking about smells. You ever come out to New York? What, you're gonna come out to New York visit? Yeah. You know, I I think I think my, my I might wind up there next year to do some work. I'm I'm hoping so I love the the apple that never is small, as people call it. So we'll, uh, we'll have a we'll have an Emmy party. And yeah, you can find this podcast on the Internet at behindthebaskets.com. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at ******** pod. You can buy T-shirts at teepublic. And you know, if you want to steal an Emmy and Mail it to me, then I too will be able to get compliments from strangers in the street. So, you know, I don't know who, who, who, who was easy to rob. That's won an Emmy. I don't know. Try will Wheaton. He. Did he win an Emmy? I I don't think so. Well, Rob Will Wheaton either way. Well, maybe don't do that. I should not be urging people to commit specific crimes on the podcast. Give Will Wheaton an Emmy and then take it from him so that it's technically. Not a cry. I should just. You know, I gotta tell you, man, from one right or to another, you are sticking the landing here. Thank you, thank you. We try to end every episode gracefully and with aplomb, so the show's done good. Hello, I'm Erica Kelly from the podcast Southern Fried True crime, and if you want to go from podcast fan to podcast host, do what I did and check out spreaker from iheart. I was working in accounting and hating it. Then after just 18 months of podcasting with Spreaker, I was able to quit my day job. Follow your podcasting. Dreams let's breaker handle the hosting, creation, distribution, and monetization of your podcast. Go to spreaker.com. That's spreaker.com. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioural discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Life on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio, this is La Monstra, a story of abomination and conspiracy. The story about the man who simply become known as. La monster. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.