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Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her social discoveries on chimpanzees. So four whole months, the chimps ran away from me. I mean, they take one look at this peculiar white ape and disappear into the vegetation. In wildlife on the iHeartRadio app, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Alex Fumero and I host the new podcast more than a movie, American Me, a film directed by and starring Edward James Olmos. I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy, including an alleged backlash from the Mexican mafia. Several people who worked on the movie have been murdered. I don't want to speak about why would people be murdered for being in a movie. Listen to more than a movie. American me. From the iHeartRadio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kapal Tojo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books through your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. What's without an introduction? My podcast. I'm Robert Evans, host of behind the ******** the show where we tell you everything about the worst people in all of history and are chronically unprepared to actually start the show that allows me to pay rent and buy food. I'm ashamed of me. I'm sure Sophie's ashamed of me. Yes, but I can't know. Oh, now I can know because she said yes. But you know who's 50% chance not ashamed of me, my guest today, Mr Billy Wayne Davis. I am not a I'm not proud, but I'm not ashamed. Do you know what I mean? That's what I shoot for. Like you pulled it out. Kind of, yeah. Yeah. But everybody listening is going. Come on, man. Yeah. Yeah. I'm. You know, the lesson I learned long ago is that if I just keep talking. About 60% of the time, I can pull victory from failure, and I learned that lesson with cops. But it applies to podcasting, too. Yeah, that's I think it applies to a lot more of life than it should. That if you just keep talking, a lot of times most people will be like, alright, just get it, alright, just get going. Speaking of getting going, uh, Billy Wayne, have you ever used a fertility doctor? That isn't inappropriate question. It's not. I'm pretty open. I have two kids and I wasn't actively planning but either of them. I wasn't upset that happened either. But no, I haven't. I haven't. OK, well. Would you be, would you be surprised? Like, what do you what do you think when you think like a fertility Dr like, do you have any sort of conceptions in your head about the kind of person who would take that job? I think it feels like someone that wants to help couples create life and create a family that seems like a like, somebody just like a family doctor that was like, oh, I'm pretty good at making this happen. So I and I have a good bedside manner. Let's go to help see these people out. It seems like like a fundamentally noble endeavor, right? Yeah. I like your setup here. It seems noble, correct? It seems noble. Well, the working title of our episode is all fertility doctors. Our ******** and that's that's not entirely fair. And the the large fertility Dr contingent of ******** pod listeners are probably angry. But I will say, from everything I can tell, it is a field with, like, a shockingly high rate of a very specific type of *******. Yes, we're gonna talk about today. Yeah, it's weird. It'll all make sense in the end, but the journey is gonna be a little bizarre. See? Hmm? You know what that's I mean, as long as they go to, as long as we get them graduated from medical school, I think we're we're a step ahead of everything else we've done. Well, yes, yes, these are definitely. I don't know. You know, actually, Billy, you know, put a pin in that. OK. Because you and I primarily talk about fake doctors. Yeah. And it's really debatable as to whether or not a lot of these people are like, they all have MD's. So I will say, like in that regard, yes, they're more real than the fake doctors we normally talk about. But I think in a fundamental way, all of the people we're talking about today are in fact fake doctors, regardless of their real MD credentials. It's like, you don't think of that part of Doctor like, because, yeah, you think of that law there. There's a lot of lawyers that go to that, you know, whatever. And they're like, yeah, I'm technically a lawyer and you're like, OK, whatever. I mean, your whole profession is technicalities anyway. But yeah, a doctor is like, I'm a doctor and *** ** * *****. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is an episode about the Gray area and the fake doctor designation. So we'll, we'll circle back around to discussing that round to the end if I remember to. It's about 80% of the time when I say we'll circle back to something we completely forget and never do. And that is also one of the hallmarks of my show, along with terrible introductions. So yeah, this episode originally started as a fan submission of a subject, Doctor Norman Barwin. He's a Canadian fertility Doctor Who is a real ***** ** **** and we will still be talking about Doctor Barwin. But as I dug into his story, I came upon a a bigger, weirder and best, dirtier. Story and that is what we will be talking about today. Now, there are a million different places we could start, but in the interest of simplicity, I'm going to kick it off in 1939 with the birth of Bernard Norman Barwin. Barwin was born in South Africa to parents who I'm sure existed at some point, but I do not know, you know, anything else at all about them and not a lot of information on this guy's early life. We do know that he went to college at the Queens University in Northern Ireland and moved to Canada in the 1970s. To work as a doctor and on paper, his career looked about as woke and wonderful as it's possible to be. Norman founded the first sexual health clinic for schools in Ottawa. He was a very public and charismatic advocate for expanded sex education and reproductive medicine. He spent time driving around the Canadian capital and what he called a sex bus now. This free Internet, right I yeah it's pre Internet because there's a bang bus in Florida near about. Yeah this is very different from the Bang bus. OK rather than being the set for a low budget **** the sex bus was a a way for Doctor Barwin to distribute pamphlets on sexual health. How many disappointed dudes walked into that bus like this is not don't go in there, man. They got reading stuff. It's just paper. I love that the passers by that that we voice in our episodes are always Southerners. Even when we're talking about Ottawa. Yes, that is. I mean, to quote the comedian Jesse case, who's southern, he was like, I mean, it sucks, but when I even when Southerners do. A dumb voice. It's just a more southern voice. And you're like, yeah, that's so true. You're doing the guy from the town over. Yes, exactly. Or the Dumber guy in your neighborhood and losing talks and you're like, yeah. I think King of the hill was the ultimate example of that because like everyone of Hank's friends is a different sort of fake southern voice that I would do based on somebody I know. It's the, it's my judge doing that. I guarantee it's just him watching people in his alley going like, I can do all these voices, I think, yeah. So yeah, Barwin the good doctor. Barwin was an early advocate for abortion rights. He also grew increasingly interested in finding ways to help single women and lesbian couples have babies. And over time, this grew into an interest in fertility in general, now artificial insemination. Billy Wayne traces its roots back to the 1700s, when a Scottish surgeon, what other nationality would have been behind it, named John Hunter, impregnated a woman with her husband's sperm, according to the National Institutes of Health. Put a cloth merchant with severe hypospadias was advised to collect the semen which escaped during coitus in a warmed syringe and inject the sample into the vagina. Now, hypospadias is a birth defect where the opening of your penis is on the bottom of the head rather than its normal location. So that's the first recorded artificial human insemination. But a clockmaker? Is that what she said? Yeah. Uh, cloth merchant. Oh, OK is the guy, is the guy who, like, was having trouble knocking his wife and his doctor was like, the way I heard you say it was that they hired him to take the sample. And I was like, what a weird choice. No, no, no, no, no. That's the. That was the client. John Hunter was just like, yeah, we just gotta get you a warm syringe, fill it with *** and use that as your penis. And he was right. Yeah, he was right. Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. So for most of the next couple of centuries, artificial insemination was primarily the purview of farmers and mainly. Used on livestock like cows, human beings did figure out how to successfully free sperm in order to keep them viable in about 1953. But a lot of people thought it was a moral to do that with human sperm, and so it wasn't until the 1970s that artificial insemination of human beings really took off as a practice and started to become very common. What happened that it became OK? I don't know. I think just enough old people died off. Gotcha. And like, everyone else was like, yeah, why don't we give a **** about this? It's a 7. Everybody's on ******* cocaine, like, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. So Doctor Norman Barwin then came of age as a doctor at a time when sort of the very first generation of professional fertility doctors were starting to become a thing. You know, there's been some before, but he was really with, like, the first wave of people who made it into kind of a mainstream profession. So he was very much on the cutting edge. Of this science like Tony Hawk. Yeah, like Tony hawk. He's the Tony hawk of using cold sperm to impregnate women whose husbands are having difficulties doing that for some reason. That's yeah. You gotta beat. Yep. Yep. You gotta shoot for something, I guess. Yeah. I mean, Tony Hawk also has a weird cold sperm obsession, but we'll save that for the. That's a total. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're a true Tony Hawk fan, you know what we're talking about. Oh yeah. Yeah. Very well aware now. Barwin quickly rose to become the president of the Canadian Fertility Society and eventually also the President of the Planned Parenthood Federation of Canada. Barwin worked as a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Ottawa. And I also had a healthy career as a gynecologist. This sounds great. Yeah. So far he's he's the realist Dr we've talked about, right? Yeah, without a doubt. Yes, without a doubt. There's no, there's no bleach. There's no clear example of a baby yet. Yeah. He hasn't drowned the baby and trying to make them. It's like the opposite of what we've been talking about. So right now, I'm like, this guy is great. Yeah, right now this guy does actually seem to be a great doctor. And of course, while he worked, you know, in a kind of wore a lot of hats as a medical professional, his real passion was increasingly fertility. And once he left the University of Ottawa, he devoted the bulk of his time to helping parents get pregnant. Doctor Barwin was beloved by many of his patients. In 1997, he was invested into the Order of Canada for his quote, profound impact on both the biological and psychosocial aspects of women's productive health. He won the Barbara Cast Beggs Award for women's reproductive rights and the Queen's Golden Jubilee. Medal for his pioneering success in helping women conceive, yeah. In fact, Doctor Norman Barwin developed such a reputation for his ability to help infertile couples make babies that his patients started giving him a nickname, the baby God. Well, I'm sure that he got love. Yeah, he got was like, you know what? Let's just back off that one. Let's just back that. That is a weird thing to call someone like. Like, I I yeah. I don't see. Well, like you said, like one or two people like, hey, the baby got over there, and then it catching on is very strange. Yeah, like, if I had an intractable health issue, like, say I had a UTI and like, yeah, I couldn't get it fixed for like years until, like, I finally found a Doctor Who was, like, able to deal with the problem. I wouldn't call him the urinary tract. God, that would be bizarre. That would that would seem weird and not like a compliment. No, no. And he'd be like, hey, let's let's don't you shouldn't say that. You don't say that. You should say that. And I'll give you another one if you if you never say that again. But doctor. Yeah. He makes babies. And you're right. Like, as like, yeah, if your wife came home, she's like, I don't want to go see the baby. God. And you're like, hmm, I wanna go with you. I'm gonna go with you. Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna check out this guy. Yeah. Yeah. And they spoiler they absolutely should have been checking out this guy because I think that's what they called Sean Camp was the baby. Got the baby. God, he just had a lot of kids. Sean. Can't he just. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. They should have called him Doc Stork. I mean, that was good. That's good. That's better. That's better. And that's not creepy. That's like homey and, like kind of warm, you know? Yes, baby, God is yeah is creepy. It is creepy. Like, he can kill your baby, too. Yeah, he can kill your baby. It makes me think of for my fellow nerds out there, one of the the best monsters in the Dungeons and Dragons like Third Edition Monster Manual was this giant, hovering aborted. God fetus was very cool monster. Anyway, that's that's that's a reference for the nine people, uh, listening to this podcast right now. I know. I get. I just kind of zoned out and then I zoomed back in when you said have boarded God fetus where I'm like, what are you guys doing over there? That's what reels them all back in is aborted God fetus. Hold on, hold on. Say that again. So God's gonna have abortions? Yes. Yes, they can. Yeah. And when they have an abortion, that abortion is also a God. That is the problem is that not a happy they're abortions become gods because you can't *** ** * *****. There's all. So the baby God. Was the Doctor Norman Barwin that the vast, vast majority of people in Canada knew up until quite recently? And to most of them he was considered a hero? But there were some signs early on that not all was well. In Doctor Barwin's practice in 1985, he made a mistake and gave a couple the wrong sperm for their child. Now, considering how new the science of fertility was in 1985, that error made relatively little impact in his career. Everybody's going to screw up, even groundbreaking physicians you can't make. Babies without spilling a little bit of spine. I really did. I mean, when you said it, I was like, oh, I mean, yeah, that whatever. Yeah, everyone's gonna **** **. Yeah, like. And you, you know, you consider other doctor mistakes where, like a guy dies on the operating table. A baby that's slightly different from the baby you intended to have. Not a big deal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. We got a baby that can jump. This one's awesome. This one's way better. Neither of us can jump. This is great. Yeah. Yeah. We both have eczema. This baby's going to do great. Fantastic. So in the mid 1990s, though, it happened again. A lesbian couple sued Dr Barwin for giving them semen. Other than the semen that they had selected from their chosen donor. That would be yeah, that would upset me. Yeah, now, according to the Toronto Star quote, that incident was designated a prior error in the agreed statement of facts presented to the panel Thursday. On that occasion, Barwin was notified of this error by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario and states that he took some steps to endeavour to ensure that no such errors would occur in his practice in the future. So again, 2 errors. You know, in like a decade. Really not a big deal. But the errors kept happening twice more during the late 1990s and since Doctor Barwood inseminated. A lot of ladies. He was still generally seen by most people as incredibly good at it, although it was now clear that there were some issues in his practice. That said, his high success rate meant he would still be the guy that you'd go to when other fertility doctors couldn't get you knocked up. So the mistakes kind of got swept under the rug. Nobody thought anything sinister was going on. Doctor Barwin continued his career as a celebrated physician. In 2003, during an interview, he told a reporter that accidentally inseminating a patient with the wrong sperm was his quote worst? Nightmare, which, you know, I feel. Yeah, yeah. Now, a decade later, that nightmare burst onto the public stage. Like, I don't know, I should have made like an analogy to to like, you know, water breaking or something. But I didn't think to. And I can't properly word it now. I think we're OK without it. You know what I think? So, yeah, I think, like burst onto the stage like a bunch of amniotic fluid. That good? Yeah. Or just. Yeah. Because and here's the thing, like, just slowly took its time coming out. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really. And it's usually have the baby in my experience. Like, they're not like, hey, I'm here. They're like, yeah. Yeah, they kind of don't want to leave. Which, considering the world makes sense. Ohh yeah, no, I'm still, every time I think about it, like, seems like that we started off in the best ball. Yeah. Every time I have to wake up, I am reminded of how difficult it must be to be a baby. Do you reach down and you feel your belly up and you're like, damn it, *** **** it, still not there. So Doctor Barwin was found to have mixed up the sperm that had created four of the babies born from his clinic. According to the Star quote, at least four of those babies aren't the biological result of their fathers or the sperm donor designated by their mothers. Because of mistakes at Darwin's clinic, experts dispatched to review procedures at the facility could isolate no evident reasons for the mix up. Those children will never know the male side of their parentage, thus left forever ignorant of crucial medical history details. So one of those babies had grown into a man by 2013. And he testified against Doctor Barwin and had to essentially explain what damage had been done to him as the result of the fact that nobody knew who his biological father might be. The 25 year old asked, why do I look like this? Who do I look like? I know I look like my mother, but what about the other side? I'll never know. Yes, I'm grateful I'm here, but there's the other side, another story. I don't know my medical history and that's kind of scary. It's like, yeah, this is a real problem, you know? And the these **** *** at this point by like 2013 were bad enough that Doctor Barwin was finally punished, albeit with the medical equivalent of a slap on the wrist. He was found guilty of unprofessional conduct and incompetence and his medical license was suspended for 60 days. He also had to pay $3600 in legal fees. The young man who testified against him was not satisfied by this justice, just a two-month ban, he said afterwards. I think he should completely lose his license, so I don't know at that point, you know? I mean, to be honest, if I'm like, if I'm like trying to evaluate it fairly and I don't know the rest of the story, 5 or 6 errors and like 40 years. It doesn't seem that bad. I don't. That's where I'm at right now, too, is like, yeah. I just. Yeah. I feel like, I don't know, have you played baseball? It's mostly, yeah. It's hard. Yeah. Everybody ***** up more than that. You like, and I know like we hold doctors to a higher standard, but still. Well, in theory we got in theory we do. But yeah, I'm completely with you on this where it's like, I I just feel like he's. And when he ***** up, you still get a baby. You still got a baby? Yeah, he's kind of what you wanted. Right. There's not alligators coming out of women's like like wombs here. Like he's not ******* up that bad. Yeah, he gave you what you wanted, just not exactly what you wanted. Which feels like what God does anyway. In theory, that's just having a kid. Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. Now, most doctors probably would have gotten harsher punishments than a 60 day suspension of their license, but the court took doctor Barwin Sterling career into account. His pro-choice advocacy, his groundbreaking work in reconstructive surgery for transgender people, and his many awards. All these mitigating factors saved him from losing his medical license, but they did not save him from attracting greater scrutiny from Canadian journalists. In the wake of his sentencing, the Star published a deep dive into the doctor. The title of their article is one of my favorite. Titles in journalism history. Ron sperm doctor Barwin took shortcuts in career and racist too. Wow. And racist too. Doctor races? Yeah, yeah. The reporters at the Star revealed that Doctor Barwin was also an inveterate marathon cheater, which we're going to talk more about in a little while. It's just my jaw dropped because that's just like, why? I don't know. Yeah, that's not one to cheat on. You're just like, yeah, anyone can cheat in this is not. That's hilarious. I think it'll make sense when we get through the rest of this guy's back story, because it all, it all seems actually kind of pretty much in line to me. But yeah, it's it's quite a title. What a weird that they call him wrong sperm doctor. That is a good. I mean, if you're going to go with baby God for a while, I think wrong sperm doctor is phytic when they figure you out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I love thinking of the editorial meeting where they're like, how do we get across that this is a Doctor Who put the wrong sperm in people in the fewest words possible. What about wrong sperm doctor? And they all laughed and then they were like, let's do it. Yeah, it's Canada. We're I'm phone up here. Now. Billy Wayne, you know what's as good. As calling Doctor Barwin the wrong sperm doctor. This transition to ads, it is smooth. That was like, yeah, I was like, is this are we on silk right now? You barely noticed it, didn't you? Almost slid right by. I thought we were still talking. Slid right by like one of the baby gods babies sliding out of a birth canal. See, you still got what you wanted. Yep, I did. I think that should have been. You'll get. You might not get what you want, but you'll get what you want. And Speaking of getting what you want products. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on Tik T.O.K. You maybe even heard the rumors from your friends and loved ones. But are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true? The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly, yes. For more than a decade, we hear at stuff they don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions, sometimes their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format, you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know now. It's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. His unspeakable crimes and the incompetence or unwillingness of the police to stop him brought the entire country of Belgium to the brink of revolution. Get the justice. From Tenderfoot TV in iHeartRadio this is la Monstra. A story of abomination and conspiracy that led to the demise of the entire institution of Belgian federal police and rattled the foundations of its government. Story about the man who simply become known as Le Monstre. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up you guys? It's your girl Betty who here? And you know this about me. It has always been very important to me to stand out and be authentically me, not only with my music, but my style and my vibe. And JBL really gets that. They know your headphones and speakers should look as original as the music you're listening to, or in my case, making. That's why I'm obsessed with my JBL headphones and speakers that help me reflect who I really am, from true wireless headphones to pulsing party boxes. Ohh yeah, party boxes guys. JBL has a wide and colourful range of products that help me feel myself when I wanna vibe my way. I literally record this entire podcast on my favorite JBL headphones. They are absolutely incredible. So JBL wants us all to listen on our terms living in the moment. Our moment unfiltered. The JBL podcast at jbl.com. And we're back. That started out as a rough transition to ads, but I think, I think we found the right transition to right. It felt right. It felt right. It's kind of like how you don't always get the baby you'd plan to have, but you always get the baby you're supposed to have the baby you're supposed to have. Unless you're baby's Hitler, then, you know, I still think that there was a couple that was the baby they were supposed to have, though. Yeah. That's how Destiny works, I think. I think. So yeah, so reporters with the star found out that Doctor Barwin was a marathon cheater, which, yeah, again, we're going to get to in a little bit. They also found out that despite being a professor of gynecology and a practicing gynecologist, Dr Barwin was not, in fact, a gynecologist. So she yeah, or at least he was not a Canadian gynecologist. He had been a gynecologist in Northern Ireland, and when he'd moved to Canada, his employer had let him do the job with the understanding that in three years. You would need to take the gynecology exam for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. Doctor Barwin did take that test several times, but he repeatedly failed it. He maintained his status as a general physician, but that was it. Now, somehow, in spite of this, he was made the director of the high Risk Pregnancy Clinic and the Co director of the Fertility Clinic. And he was allowed to teach other people how to be gynecologists. Exactly. It's rude in Canada. They ask any follow-up question, I guess. Yeah. Tamil gonna fail this test, are you? Don't be rude. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Fail this test. Should we tell him he can't work as a gynecologist anymore? Yeah. Feelings? Let's just go to the Tim horton's. Yeah. So I'm going to quote again from the star attempting to explain how this happened. Questioned long afterwards by the Ottawa Citizen, Barwin at first claimed he left Ottawa general because he wanted more freedom than implied resentment among professional colleagues, and finally asserted that he had nothing to prove because he'd been certified by the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists in England. He did indicate embarrassment over the controversy. I'm not proud of it. I ain't got nothing to prove. I ain't got nothing to prove. I ain't taking your test. I ain't trying to prove I'm a doctor. Yeah, well, you said you're a doctor and a guy. You you did say you could do this job and then failed the test that we've set to make sure people could do this job. It's not that you have nothing to prove. You can't prove it. I I tried using that line the last time I failed a drivers license test and it it did not work. But try and prove you people I've never met. I can't drive a car, can drive a car. I ain't what I'm trying to do. You asked the homeless man embedded in the grill of my truck if I can drive, he'll tell you I knows how. First of all, I don't think it's any of your business if I'm drunk or not right now, that's not your business. I got nothing to prove. I ain't got anything proved deep. And I give him my picture card. Ohhh, alright now Billy, Are you ready to talk about Doctor Barwin's Marathon cheating? Yes, I that was that. I don't know why peaks my interest more than the the making babies he's not supposed to. Because because I feel like that's just most of professional athletes. Well, in the year 2000, Doctor, but not a gynecologist, Barwin ran the Boston Marathon and he pulled down a pretty incredible time, 3 hours and 17 minutes. But that put him at yeah, that's a good *** time now. That put him at #14 in the 60 to 69 age group. And for some reference to people who aren't runners, a three hour and 17 minute marathon would be ******* good if you were twenty. Yeah, like that. That's a great time for a healthy young person. That runs the lot, that runs a lot of his time at the Victoria Marathon in British Columbia, which had qualified him for the Boston Marathon, had been even better. He'd managed it in less than three hours, but. It's that is insane. Would be incredible if he had actually gotten either of those times. OK, see, the Boston Marathon doesn't just take people's word for their time. It monitors runners with cameras, referees, computer timing equipment and microchips attached to the shoes of runners. And when race officials looked into doctor Barwin's time, they found a couple of issues. Glenn McGregor, a reporter for the Ottawa Citizen who dug into Barwin, managed to dig up a letter that director of the marathon had sent Barwin three days after the race. Quote. You failed to appear at multiple checkpoints along the marathon route. Please provide this office with any information that may be helpful to assist in authenticating that you did run the entire marathon course, including type of clothing worn, other visual identification, split times, companion runners, etcetera. Doctor Barwin, head of course, nothing to back up his claims. He was disqualified. There's a bartender. He will tell you exactly where I was there the whole time. He was disqualified and banned forever from the Boston Marathon a month later when McGregor questioned him about this initial response. Uh, his answer was quote. I'm not quite sure now what happened, whether I had a faulty chip or what. But later, according to the Star quote, he changed his story, admitting he dropped out around the 10K point because of an inguinal hernia, jumping back in at the end because he wanted to experience the exhilaration of crossing the finish line with a group of friends. I thought I'd feel the high of coming in. I got a friend to give me a lift to the finish, Barwon told the paper. I have a hard time with this. It wasn't my intent to do this. It was a breaking point, you know? Yeah, it's a breaking point. Yeah, man. Hey, I gotta honey, I I wanna feel like, yeah, what's it feel like to win? Like, no, you should go to the hospital. Nothing. Nothing to do your side right now, man. And now? So you're a doctor, you're a doctor, so the audit. Gynecologist. Yeah. OK, OK. Best gynecologist in Canada. Now let me see that vagina you just like lifts up a woman's knee. So the Ottawa Citizen dug further and found that doctor Barwin had also cheated at a local marathon in Ottawa. He'd finished first in his age group at just over 3 hours, but later digging found that he'd never finished the second lap of the race. When pressed on this, Barwin again blamed his hernia, claimed he'd limped out of the race and assumed they'd have recorded him as quitting, even though he rejoined the race a kilometer away from the finish line. It's really embarrassing for me. It was quite out of character, I promise you. Yeah, getting caught. That is not in my character. I cheat all the time. I am not used to getting caught and I am embarrassed right now. Now, unfortunately for Doctor Barwin, this is the part of the story where he starts getting caught at stuff besides marathon cheating. Does he have a wife? I think so, yeah, because I know anything about her because I feel like the whole time she's like, did you cheat again? Did you cheated the man you cheat to get? Did you? He's like, I beat 3 hours. She's like, you keep cheating. Yeah, he's the kind of guy that would like come back from a football game with a stolen trophy and been like, look at me, I'm a running back. I won. I won the football game today. She's like, you're 61 years old. So I played for the Argonauts, played for the Toronto Argonauts. Now, Doctor Barwin maintained his medical license for another year after that 2013 case where he got suspended for two months. But now that his name was in the news for mixing up sperm, other Barwin babies and their parents started getting DNA tests to see if they were who they thought they were. Yeah, this became a problem very quickly, one bar when baby eventually began to suspect that the doctor himself was her biological father after a DNA test showed she was not genetically related to the man who had raised her. According to NBC quote Barwin confirmed through a DNA test that he was her father, but said the only occasion he had used his own. Seamen was when he was calibrating an automatic sperm counter and some of it must have become mixed up with donor sperm. Oh man come on, dude, you buying that Billy God. I was cleaning it and it went it was just I was cleaning mine and it went off and that's what that's how that's how you got here, I must have shot it into the the. Crock pot of other **** in my laboratory. Shouldn't have kept them all in the same bowl. I mean, it is a thing of, like when you confront somebody like that you everyone expects, like that moment when you're like, oh, I got you and they're gonna be like, OK, you got me. But that never happens with people like this. They're always like, no, probably what happened was like a bird came and took some of my **** and put it in this and then we had a bird problem and you're just like, I can't even, this is God. Yes, that's all you can say is just, uh, *** ****. Yeah. And he's like, I know, right? You baby. *** **** it. Yeah. Those ******* birds. Yeah, he's. I know, right? Birds, you know? So that lie, if it ever was believable, I don't think that it was crumbled immediately under a flood of new victims. One of these was a patient who had given birth in 1990 to a daughter. She'd thought she that doctor Barwin had used her husband's sperm, but then her daughter wound up with celiac disease, a genetic condition neither parent shared. Doctor Barwin resigned his medical license in shame in 2014, but people continued to come forward. One of those people was a young woman with the last name of Palmer. Her journey started with the DNA test she took for an online registry. She knew she'd been the product of a sperm donor and she wanted to know if she had any relations in the area. To her surprise, she had one a second cousin who just so happened to be related to Doctor Barwin, Mr Tility Doctor Who had artificially inseminated her mother. Palmer set to work trying to unravel this mystery. At one point she confronted Dr Barwin, who informed her that, alas, he'd lost the donor registry and there was no way to figure out who her biological father was. Oops. Oops. It was me. It was me. But oops, we don't know. We don't know it was me. We don't have any proof. I lost it to the other days. They must have went down the the the ****. That ******* bird dropped it into the **** bucket now. Now all the inks run off and. So 18 no child support. I'm gonna quote now from the Ottawa Citizen. I don't know how this happened, she recounts Barwin telling her, and what would have become a familiar refrain. The fertility Dr had something else to say to Palmer, he told me. I was obsessive for wanting the answer. You are young, you were in a healthy relationship. Isn't that enough for you? He asked. Such * ****. He is a **** ****. He is, yeah, he's a, Palmer says. She tried to. What? You're here? What? You're here? You got a boyfriend? Why do you care whose sperm made you shut up? Now, Palmer says she tried to be cordial as possible to keep a line of communication open. Inside. She says she was seething with rage at the roadblocks Dr Barwin's clinic seemed to be putting up to prevent her from getting more information about herself. I can't imagine you like at one point he's like, no daughter of mine is going to talk to me like this and you're just like, why, damn it? I was trying to get into his head that this isn't a ridiculous question. You are not breeding puppies, you are creating humans. This seems really reasonable like Palmer eventually grew convinced that her sperm donor had either been doctor Barwin or someone close to him. She did eventually get him to take a DNA test that confirmed he was her father. Doctor Barwin insisted this had all been the result of some tremendous terrible **** **. In a 2015 e-mail he wrote her this quote I cannot understand. How this could have happened? This has caused me much stress and remorse. I regret that we both have had to endure this major disruption. He's special in a way. Me illegal or me act me purposefully using my own sperm instead of your biology or your the guy who raised you sperm. To make you is a problem for both of us, and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for all my meddling kids. Yeah? That's the attitude he has with all of it. Yeah. It's like he's mad. Science is like, what the ****? No. Yeah, and none of. And you guys are mad at me. I don't understand. You exist. Some of you are dating people. Come on. Yeah, sounds like semi auto coming too. What's the problem? Yeah. God now. He begged Palmer not to tell anybody, and for a while she did keep this a secret. But doing so aided her, and in 2016 she sent Doctor Barwin this e-mail quote. First, let me make clear what I don't expect. I don't expect to suddenly be part of the Barwin family, nor do I want to be. I certainly don't expect any money or other forms of inheritance. What I want is much simpler than that. I don't want to feel the burden of hiding who I am, the fullness of who I am. I expect his children and grandchildren. You know I exist, that I am connected to them in this slightly confusing way, and that the relationship is not my fault. It's not some threat from an outsider. I was just born, and the nature of my birth and my genetic relationship to them is entirely from choices or mistakes that others made. Totally reasonable. All of that is insanely reasonable considering the circumstances and what has happened. That might be that might be the most reasonable paragraph that's ever been read on this show that I've heard, without a doubt. Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt. That's the most reasonable human thing we've heard. And it was just like, listen, what you did. I don't want anything from you. I just need to be able to acknowledge who I am as a human person. And he's like, hey, easy. Well, think about me. His response? Oh no, no, no. It makes me want to jump out the window already. Like when you said, here's his response. I'm already like, I don't wanna. I don't know. Well, and the window. Next to you is the poison room, so that would be doubly dangerous. I'll just be dead, and then I'll hit, and then we'll make sure I'm dead. Barr, when's response? Is what I'm going to read now. Sophie, make sure the poison room door is locked. OK, quote copy. I am concerned that if this becomes public, my professional credibility will be damaged. Yeah. I am so sorry that my issue. Yes. I am so sorry that my issues are causing such an impact on you. It's not that I don't want to let my children know about you, it's just that I am worried about how they will feel about me if you plan to inform others. My concern is he's such a ***** ** ****. God. I mean, any clinical psychologist is like, tell him to come see me. Holy ****. Yeah, I feel like. I feel like the I'm not a psychologist, but I feel like the ethical response if he went to a clinical psychologist would be for that psychologist to hit him in the face. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we've. Ohh. You're the case. Yeah, come here. That's that's the one case in the DSM. Like they line this out years ago. Nobody's ever done it. No, it says here, you're the only type of person I can punch. I have to counsel serial killers. But you I can hit. I get to punch you. I get to punch you. This is exciting. Yeah, I'm not done reading his response. Umm. If you plan to inform others, my concern is how they will see me again. It is not about you. You have been very understanding, reasonable, impatient, and from what I can gather, you are a fabulous person. I wanted to let you know why I have been delaying. I'm still trying to come to terms with what I have done and how my family will feel about me if they were aware of my unintentional action. See, it's not about you. The issue of who your father is, is not about you. It's about me, the guy who conned your mother into getting Mike. From inside here, well in and he doesn't even say that. He doesn't even know. He's not even that honest, he says at the end. My unintentional action, yeah, which is still like, Nah dude. No, dude, you can't start it with me and like, you're gonna **** ** my doctor thing. You're not thinking about me or me or me here. And then also, I didn't do this. It was an accident. We were like, well, none of what you said. None of it. It's like even if you're worried about your doctor's thing, then you admit that you're not a good doctor. In the same thing, yeah. It's very frustrating now. I mean, you know, two for sure. I mean, before we read that, I was like, well, this guy's obvious, the narcissist, where he's just like, I'm on, everyone's gonna take my seat. And then he can't even respond without being like, you're not even thinking about me. You're like, oh, he's. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, this guy is a ******** narcissist. And by 2019, it was clear that Doctor Barwin had been responsible for mixing up the sperm donors for between 51 and 100 babies and quite possibly many, many more. You never know for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, because there's a bunch of kids out there like, oh, you went to that doctor? **** I don't want to. Oh, you. You know what? You shouldn't read up on it. Now, now it was also shown that he had been the donor himself for at least eleven of those babies. More, more way more. Way more. Way more. I'm, I'm. If I had money to bet for on this, this would be like, yeah, there's more. There's a lot more. Bar when babies who are literal. Bar when babies. Yeah. Now at this point it became clear that whatever had gone down was no accident. Doctor Barwin had purposefully impregnated women with his sperm against their will. Now, Billy, in a reasonable world, would you consider, would you think that would be a crime? It sounds. I mean, by definition it sounds like rape. Yeah, it it it's not rape, but it lives in the same housing development. Yeah, OK. I understand it's the same ****** gated community. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the same ****** gated community as rape. Yes, it is. You know what's not in the same gated community as rape? Billy Wayne Davis? Hopefully Koch brothers that, yeah. I mean, actually, if it's if it's a Koch brothers ad, it might be in that ballpark. They built, they built the gated community that's who built. They built the gated community and they built it above a leaky gas pipeline on a Native American reservation. Yeah. Anyway, that's sad thus begins our most smoothly led into ad break of all time products. So by now we imagine that you've seen the theories on tik. T.O.K you maybe even heard the rumors your friends and loved ones but are any of the stories about government conspiracies and cover ups actually true. The answer is surprisingly or unsurprisingly. Yes, for more than a decade. We here at stuff. They don't want you to know have been seeking answers to these questions sometimes. Their answers that people would rather us not explore. Now we're sharing this research with you for the first time ever in a book format you can pre-order stuff they don't want you to know. Now. It's the new book from us, the creators of the podcast and video series. You can turn back now or read the stuff they don't want you to know. Available for pre-order now, it's stuff you should read books.com or wherever you find your favorite books. In the 1980s and 90s, a psychopath terrorized the country of Belgium. A serial killer and kidnapper was abducting children in the bright light of day. His unspeakable crimes and the incompetence or unwillingness of the police to stop him brought the entire country of Belgium to the brink of revolution. Just December. From Tenderfoot TV and iHeartRadio this is la Monstra. A story of abomination and conspiracy that led to the demise of the entire institution of Belgian federal police and rattled the foundations of its government. The story about the man who simply become known as La Monstre. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up you guys? It's your girl Betty who here? And you know this about me. It has always been very important to me to stand out and be authentically me, not only with my music, but my style and my vibe. And JBL really gets that. They know your headphones and speakers should look as original as the music you're listening to, or in my case, making. That's why I'm obsessed with my JBL headphones and speakers that help me reflect who I really am, from true wireless headphones to pulsing party boxes. Ohh yeah, party boxes guys. JBL has a wide and colourful range of products that help me feel myself when I wanna vibe my way. I literally record this entire podcast on my favorite JBL headphones. They are absolutely incredible. So JBL wants us all to listen on our terms living in the moment. Our moment unfiltered. The JBL podcast at jbl.com. We're back. Yes, uh, so as I kind of intimated in the before the lead out, this was not against the law. Never been a thing to bring up, right? Exactly. Exactly. Nobody thought this would happen. Yeah, like all of the assemblies looking each other like, I mean, it should be, but yeah, it's not. Ah, ****. Yeah, I haven't had this issue before. It's like committing tax fraud in space. Like nobody quite thought to, like, make sure that that was down in the books. Yes. Yeah, yes. He international waters the **** out of that, didn't. Yeah, yeah. Now, the only official comeuppance that Doctor Barwin suffered was a disciplinary panel from the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario. Dr Barwin did not show up at his own hearing, denying his victims a chance to get any kind of closure. He showed up at the end, right? No, he didn't even show up at that. Just like to think that that's what he like. He started the hearing and then left and then showed up right before it ended. That would be true to form. I just wanted to. I just wanted to feel like what the Simonson was, that's all. I just wanna feel it. I wouldn't feel the feeling of being sent to. I just wanted to feel it. Yeah, I had a hernia. Yeah, like in the middle of the earrings, like, I got a hernia and someone leans over. I was like, is he doing the marathon thing? Is he doing the marathon thinking here? Now, Doctor Barwin claimed that he could not make the hearing due to unspecified medical issues, which he provided no evidence for and his doctor pleaded or his lawyer pleaded no contest, which meant that he did not dispute the facts of the case but also did not admit guilt. It's basically like, how can I give the people I wronged the least amount of closure? That's what he did, yeah. Now, there is currently a class action lawsuit against Doctor Barwin in the offing and if it actually goes through, Doctor Barwin might wind up in a court. But Even so, there doesn't seem to be any chance of him actually facing serious criminal penalties for his actions. See, it turns out that assisted human reproduction as an industry is kind of preposterously unregulated pretty much everywhere on Earth. In Canada, the organization responsible for keeping an eye on the practice is assisted human Reproduction Canada, a federal regulatory body established in 2006. They are supposed to keep track of donor conceived kids and make sure people like Doctor Barwin don't get too impregnate. Numerous women in secret. But in 2008, two years after the organization's founding, the province of Quebec challenged the federal government's jurisdiction. The case spent years mired in the Canadian Supreme Court, and during that time Health Canada was unable to actually develop any regulations. In 2012, the agency was defunded and responsibility for regulating fertility clinics was returned to the states, so there's barely anyone keeping watch. And up until recently, there were barely any laws in Canada, certainly none aimed at stopping someone like Norman Barwin. From using his own sperm on donors. And this is not just a Canadian problem. Basically, everywhere the fertility industry exists, it does so with almost no regulation or oversight. The executive director for the Center for Genetics and Society called the United States the Wild West of the fertility industry. It was huge news in 2015 when Utah, of all places, passed a law giving donor conceived children the right to know their genetic parents medical history like crazy that Utah would actually be the first to like the state. That's like, yeah, you can sell people. Bed and call it a vitamin. Yeah, they're all coming. Why? I guess. How many wives do you have then? Yeah, you can do that if you have 4. You can do that if you got four, yeah. So Utah is kind of unique in passing this law because most states don't regulate, even, like, don't even regulate, how many children can be conceived by a single donor. Do you like think though that Utah did it for some back channel Mormon genetic thing where they're making sure they're everyone's, you know? If I if I if I was a better researcher, I would have checked in on that. I was just happy to see that somebody had instituted that law in the United States and shocked that it was Utah. I'm not sure why it was Utah and I don't know, it might just be Mormons, but it's just there just isn't that the way they do? Government there is very interesting. So I mean, it might just be that like because there's so many large families in Utah, the fertility industry is bigger there and so they needed to start regulating it earlier than other places. I really don't. I think you said it. Particularly the no idea where it was. Just, like, do you think it's weird Mormon ****? You know, it's gotta be weird Mormon ****. It's Utah, right? Like everything traces back to weird Mormon? Yeah, but yeah, yeah, you can't get. You gotta mix your liquor behind a curtain, but you can know who your biological father was. It is confusing, yeah. Now this is where we leave Doctor Barwin. What I found in my research is that he isn't so much a ******* as one member of a species of ********. And this brings me to the story of Doctor Donald Klein. He was an Indianapolis era fertility Dr in the 1970s and 1980s. The same wild and woolly days that doctor Barwin started practicing. You want to guess where this story goes, Billy Way night? Yes, I do. No, I don't know. You know what? I don't. Don't. I'm going to quote from the New York Times here. Quote Many couples sought Dr Klein out at his Indianapolis era fertility clinic during the 70s and 80s. They had children who grew up and had children of their own. With the couples did not know was that an untold number of occasions Dr Klein was not using the sperm of anonymous donors. He was using his own. Through 23 Andme and other similar genetic testing websites, three dozen, half siblings of those women have been found. Three dozen. About three dozen, said Jacoba Ballard, 38, one of the biological daughters. She expects the number to grow in some instances, state prosecutors said. Doctor. Mine even told women that he was using their husband's sperm but provided his own. What is the thought? Is it that doctor thing that they get where they're like I am? Is it some weird? I I think it's narcissism and I'll, I'll ask you, we'll hold on to that thought because once we get a little bit more information, I think we can discuss this in detail. And I think there's a pretty clear conclusion here, but I want to go through the other cases, so. Now there's like there's like a like you said, a species of man. It's like, yeah, it's a whole type of guy. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So doctor special. No one special. Really not Doctor Norman Barwin. Even if you think, hey, I'm just secretly impregnating all these women. I am, yeah. No one else doing this ****. There's like four other people that. Yeah, I'm doing it too. Yeah. You're like, yeah. I mean, I've had to deal with that feeling just because of the existence of the dollop, and it's nice to know that that's true with doctors who use their own sperm as well. Yes. Yes. Where you go to an audition and everyone looks like you and you're like, what you can ****. Yeah. Yeah, that's really a. That's one of the things about Los Angeles that can drive you crazy, is how he said you could be sorted into a type. Yeah, or or you go to notions like I went to one where it was written for me. Like, I was the guy. Like, they were like, like, we want Billy Wayne Davis. And then I went and I didn't get it because someone did it better than me. He was better Billy Wayne Davis than you. And I was like, he probably was. He probably was. He had their look or whatever whatever company he was like, yeah, that's he's better than the real one. I mean, we actually, we were planning to have you on the show a lot earlier, Billy Wayne. But, you know, you kind of flubbed the audition. And I, I have to say Jamie Loftus is a great Billy Wayne Davis. Yeah, she's. So Doctor Klein is still alive, but has refused doggedly to address any of this or to explain himself to his victims. In December of 2018, he pleaded guilty to two felony counts of obstruction of justice and was given a suspended 365 days sentence. Now, the only reason he received that much of a punishment, and any kind of criminal punishment at all, was because he lied to state investigators when he initially claimed he hadn't used his own sperm to impregnate anyone. The fact that he had tricked a bunch of women into bearing his genetic material was not a crime. Now, if he would have admitted to it, would it become he'd be fine. He'd still be fine. He he probably would have lost his medical license like that. That stuff they can do for it. But he wouldn't have gone. He wouldn't have gotten a criminal sentence. Yeah, what? But would it would have put him in like civil? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can sue people civilly for anything. And I think he's certainly at risk for that because he definitely like, you can claim material harm for what he did. Yeah, because the the ego of, like, not admitting it when you're doing it because I think they want, it's like a, you know, that's the thing. You're like, I think part of them like someone was like, hey, you can't admit you did this because you will have zero money ever again. Yeah, maybe that's the case now. The State Medical board did bar him from holding a medical license. Again, but since Doctor Klein had retired in 2009, this isn't an enormous punishment. We have no way of knowing how many of his genetic children are out there. Meanwhile, those children have no way of knowing who their biological father was, because Doctor Klein shredded all of his patient records. Cool, cool. Dude, he's cool. He's a good dog. In 1992, in Virginia, a fertility Dr named Cecil Jacobson was indicted for using his own sperm to impregnate dozens of women. Now, it was illegal in Virginia. So, Virginians, you can take some pride in the fact that your state is way ahead of the curve on this. Yeah. He was sentenced to five years in prison and more than $116,000 in fines, but Even so, it still took decades and more than 50 pregnancies for anyone to catch him. Now. Jacobson was a Brown University graduate who went on to be the chief of reproductive genetics at George Washington University. In the 1960s, he claimed to have successfully implanted a fertilized baboon egg into a male baboon and kept the pregnancy viable for nearly four months. He never published this work, and he's probably lying about it, but the fact that he considered this something to brag about. Probably should have been a red flag decades earlier. Now I'm gonna quote from amedicalbag.com article on the man quote. By the 1980s, Jacobson had started operating a genetic center in Virginia. He proclaimed himself a fertility specialist and began treating patients who had difficulties getting pregnant. He used the hormone human chorionic gonadotropin, gonadotropin HCG regularly. And as a form of treatment. Jacobson would falsify pregnancies, have patients undergo ultrasounds, and then tell them that the fetus had died around the third month of pregnancy suspicions. Began to arise, which were reported to local authorities. Federal investigators stepped in and came to find that, in addition to the falsified pregnancies, Jacobson had been artificially inseminating patients with sperm supposedly from screened and anonymous donors. The investigators determined that there was no donor program and that Jacobson was using his own sperm to impregnate patients. There's a donor program. We got a program. Every day, Jacob. It's suspected that in total, Jacobson probably fathered as many as 75 children with his own semen. But he OK, there's another part of this. Whereas, like, you're not actually getting laid either. No, I don't think that's it. I don't think that's it. I know it's not yet, but it is like a fun part of making a baby. It is the better part of making it's way better than like, you know? Putting the glass and then putting the thing, then maybe you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say when they turn out to be Will Wheaton, but yeah, all of those other parts suck too. Now, there are many fertility doctors with stories like this. On the 24th of August, 2019, two days before I wrote this script, Today magazine published an article titled Their Mothers chose donor sperm, their doctors used their own. It tells the story of Eve Wiley, who learned today, age 16, that she'd been conceived via artificial insemination. The doctor responsible, Kim Mcmorries, told her mother that he'd found said sperm through a California sperm bank and believed this to be true until she took a consumer DNA test, eve told reporters. You build your whole life and your genetic identity and that's the foundation. But when those bottom bricks have been removed or altered, it can be devastating. I I will say in the future I'm going to use California sperm bank as a pseudonym from my testicles, but only when I'm in California. Like that though. Yeah, I got it from the California sperm bank. You can be sure of that and I like that. A lot of this was discovered with the with the commercial commercialization of DNA testing. Like, you think these doctors are, like, walking through a CVS the first time they saw, like, a DNA test thing, and they're like, this is not good. This is not good. This ain't gonna work well for me like that. Do you know? Now, doctor, what do you think of this 23 andme stuff? It's a scam. It's a scam. It's bad. And the best part is, it is kind of a scam. This is basically the only thing it was really good for. Yeah. And in helping catch murderers, I think. I think, yeah. Enforce some of that, too. Is using it for. Yeah, stuff. And it had a lot of problematic aspects, but in this case, it did a good thing. Yeah. What do you think of 23andMe? Well, I discovered that my dad is a doctor that is also the dad of 75 other people that we know about. Yeah, you don't hear that commercial on the pot? I found out my family comes from Norway. Yes. Now, partly as a result of Eve's case, Texas has passed a law making this sort of thing a crime. It is now defined as sexual assault there. So in this one case, Texas is actually an example of like a reasonable and timely response to a clear problem. So it happened once in Texas State history. Good for them, good for them. We should. Texas, you get a lot of **** and deservedly so, and deservedly so. Really? Do you deserve it? But hey, good job on this one, on this one. Nailed it. Don't get cocky. You nailed it. Yeah. Don't get cocky. You nailed it. Like the biological pair, or like the people who raised all these kids did not nail their you know, you could see where the joke I was trying to go for there was. Yeah, it just didn't work out. I see why you chose journalism, but I Yep. Yeah. I do think like, yeah, like and even with the Canada thing or the Mormon thing, it's like. I do feel like there's probably livestock, there's a livestock reason somewhere involved in while they're ahead of this. It's like artificial. Somebody reads this story about people and it's like, my God, this is going to infect the steers. Yes. Yeah, that's an industry. That's our industry here. It's like, yeah, no, I do think there's probably something because, like, that's how I know about artificial insemination is because I was raising cattle farm. And it's not as complicated a process as people would think it is. No, no, no it is not. It is not. Although I think people would be interested at the lengths that are gone to to stop bowls from actually having sex with anything. Yes. Yeah, that that's an entertaining part of that industry. ***** too. Yeah, they get them all worked up and then they're like, hey, how we're going to stop? And there's a lot of, like, in the meat industry, there's a lot of things to be angry about in terms of an injustice, but that should be on the list. Yeah, it's not as bad as, like, keeping animals in their own fecal matter outside of sunlight and stuff in a cramped pin, but it's still not cool. It's not. It's me that's really mean. That's why. That's why they don't want those dudes on. Yeah, they are onry **** ** *******. They're just like, oh, you're mad because that dudes on you. No, no, I don't care. He's on my back. They haven't let me **** in a while. You. For an idea of like, the environment I grew up in, my mom's favorite sport to watch was bull riding, primarily for when the guys would get horribly injured. Sure, it's love to watching those guys get ****** ** by bolts. It's awesome. It's awesome. It is awesome. That's what you. And it's like when my that's my whole problem with the NFL not coming forward. Just say it causes brain damage and then they sign a waiver and you get to make a bunch of money. Look, we know guns kill people and it's a huge industry in the United States. If you were just like, yeah. Football is horrible for people. Do you still want to make $100 million? People would still say yes, they know it already and do it. Yeah. And then when someone stops like Andrew Luck and everybody's like, what is he doing? He's like, well, I think he's. He's he wants to enjoy his millions of dollars before his brain melts. Yeah. He just wants to remember what life is like, yeah. Yeah. God, yeah. He he knows he's got 10 years left before he shoots himself in the chest and leaves a note telling doctors to study his braiding. My brain because I'm a good person. But this, which has happened to a bunch of those guys. Yeah. #1 junior say out that you know about that. There's other ones that have that you don't know about that are like this. I got to. I'm tired of being crazy. Yeah. Horrible, thank God I went to horrible football practice in college was like, **** this. I did play for a season in high school, but I was not good at it and I mostly avoided the head injuries. See that I was pretty good at it in high school so I could avoid the head injuries. So yeah, that was the that was mine was like, I don't like hitting people, but I like scoring touchdowns. I can say all my head injuries in life have come from teaching special Ed. I think my dad might back that up, too. Yeah, no, it's you'll get hit in the head a lot, you know, depending on what type of teaching you do. Football coach should a special Ed teacher. I'm sure he's like, no, I got hit. Way more special Ed. Now, yeah, like I said, Texas passed a law making this a crime after the Mcmorries case. But Doctor Mcmurray's behavior remains legal in 47 American States and I'm going to quote again from today, Doctor Jody Madeira, a law professor at Indiana University, is following more than 20 cases in the United States and abroad. They have occurred in a dozen states, including Connecticut, Vermont, Idaho, Utah and Nevada, she said, as well as in England, South Africa, Germany and the Netherlands. So many doctors use their own sperm to impregnate women, so many fertility. Doctors. It's ******* crazy how common it is that case. It's borderline problematic. It is an epidemic. It's absolutely an epidemic. Like, I didn't include every case, just the most obvious ones. I only had so much research time. I can't. So is it like a funny thing they're doing, like, where they eat pretty funny, which is, like I said, let's get through the rest of this and then we'll talk about what the **** we think is going on. You keep saying that and then it goes. There's just a lot more ******* deeper than I could ever believe. So I'm like, yeah, we're almost close, we're almost there. And they're like, no, there's 48 more dudes that are doing this. God, yes. I have 112 pages more to go through. That case in the Netherlands was probably fertility specialist Joan Carbot. He was confirmed by DNA testing to have fathered 56 children with women who distinctly did not intend to have his sperm inside of them. Karabots clinic closed in 2009, but much of this activity had happened decades prior, and at least one local attorney doubted whether or not he'd ever done anything legally improper. Quote, 30 years ago, people looked at things in very different ways. Carbot could have been an anonymous donor. We don't know that there was no registration system at the time. As a good lawyer right there. He's a that is a good lawyer person, but that's a good lawyer. Solid lawyering? Yeah, I'm impressed, but I do not invited to my BBQ. Yeah, now it's worth noting that there are reasons some doctors may have used their own sperm outside of narcissism or just some bizarre kink. Or I should say, in addition to narcissism. Yeah, up until the late 1980s, frozen sperm technology was still quite primitive. Many doctors might have justified using their own fresh sperm because they knew it would work better than the alternative. No one back in 1975 saw home DNA testing kits is very likely. And I think this might explain doctor Barwin's reputation as the baby God. Other fertility doctors in Ottawa probably didn't use their own semen in patients, so they relied on the frozen stuff and had lower success rates. Doctor Barwin's marked Success was a direct consequence of the fact that he was fine lying to people about whose semen they were getting. And this Billy Wayne Davis brings me to the story of Bertold Wiesner and his wife Mary Barton. I know they were someone like very first, very first for the end, and I don't like it. Some of these earliest was in a horror movie. I'm not going in there, I'm just gonna this is definitely part of a horror movie. They were among the earliest pioneers in the fertility field. They started a clinic in London in the 1940s, and over the years they took part in more than 1500 successful conceptions. Now. At the time, they told clients that all of their sperm donors came from a small collection of their friends, who are all geniuses and accomplished academics. Yeah, me too, man. Come into this house, we'll **** you. They're all geniuses. Now you wanna guess how many of these babies were his every one of them? No, no, it's not that bad. No, roughly 1/3 of them. So about 600 children are estimated to have been conceived via Weisner sperm. Now, most of these children will probably never learn the truth, since it took so many decades for anyone to realize what was going on. It's actually impossible for anyone to know how many children Wisner had, or how many of those kids may have wound up dating or marrying each other. She forgot about that part. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, that this this might explain a little bit of white English people are so weird, but you know. No way to know it's, well, there's a it's a cocktail over there. Yeah, now, in 2018, a Queens couple finally succeeded in conceiving a child through in vitro fertilization. But when the mother gave birth in March of this year, she and her husband were shocked to find out that, unlike them, their children were not Asian. According to today.com, the couple reported they had spent over $100,000 at CHA Fertility Center in California for attempts at IVF. According to a lawsuit filed last week, Red flags began to pop up throughout the pregnancy. A sonogram showed the woman was carrying. Than boys. If the couple had not used male embryos when they contacted the clinic about it, doctors simply told them the sonogram was incorrect. Following the birth, the couple was shocked to see that the babies they were told were formed using both of their genetic material. Did not appear to be, the lawsuit stated. The babies were not related to either of their parents or to each other. The couple relinquished custody of the children. Now it is unclear who the parents were in that case. We have no idea. It is entirely possible that this case is not at all the result of a shady doctor wanting to spread his seed or anything like that. It may have just been a **** ** due to the fact that in 2019, nobody really cares about making sure this piece of the medical field abides by the same rules that other parts of medicine that don't involve semen do. Dove Fox, a professor of law at the University of San Diego, provided this explanation to today fertility centers, and there are almost 500 of them in the United States today, operate free of almost any regulation at all, Fox told NBC News. There's no federal law, no state law, no enforced professional guideline that enforces requirements that licenses these facilities in the way that they label. Or diagnose or handle sperm, eggs and embryos that result in the creation of people and fertility medicine. It's very different than any other field where we regulate very closely what's called never events. These are major avoidable mistakes, things like blood transfusion on the wrong person, or a surgery on the wrong body part or the wrong patient. There we require mandatory disclosure and we figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. We have nothing like that for what you might call never events in reproductive technology. So that's neat. I I mean, I might stop doing comedy and just get into Doctor Billy's baby making bungalow to Billy's baby clinic. Just they come from a California sperm bank. Sure does. He only see he can say five or six couples a day and until he's about 45 and then he's going to retire, I think. Ohh Jesus. So yeah, my thinking on why these guys do it, I think you've got a mix of two kinds of doctors and fertility medicine. You have good doctors who choose to go into fertility medicine and do their best and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail because using frozen sperm is harder than using fresh sperm and it's a difficult field. And then you have guys like Doctor Barwin who are not actually great doctors, but who, because they're narcissists, want to be seen as the best. And who realized at a certain point, I can be the best fertility doctor if I just use my own fresh come all the time? Yeah. No, that. I mean, that's a good business decision, too, I think more than any. Yeah, it's great. That's why he became the baby God. I think it's the same with most of these guys. They just wanted to be seen as great. I don't like. I don't think it's a kink for most of them. I don't think it's about wanting to spread their seed. I think they want to be seen as great doctors. And literally the easiest way in medicine to be seen as a great doctor without actually being good at medicine is to be a cheating fertility. Dr like, up until recently. Yeah. Well, especially the the marathon guy. Like, cheating was not that was like he was all about results. He wanted to seem like the best. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah. He had a. I would say probably insecurity. I would say for sure, yeah, which is a weird thing to lead to wanting more children and I don't think he cared about that. You just think it was well, and I guess you're right, because it's not even that personal when you're in the lab doing the thing. It's probably. You're just thinking about like, oh, this will make these people happy, and then I'll get more money and then they'll bring more people. Yeah, yeah. I suspect it's something like that or there. I mean, they're all smart enough to realize, like, maybe they're all hanging out and he's like, yeah, they all. I mean, it's tough because you freeze them sometimes they live. Most of the time they don't. So it would be like 1 ***** *** doctor, you know? They're playing golf and he's like, he's your voters jacked off myself into it. And then the other guy was like, huh? OK, huh. Easier, huh? Would be easier, wouldn't he? Says that as he's, like, surreptitiously picking up his ball and dropping it 10 feet. Forward, yeah, we're just like kicking it with his foot. He was like kicking it with his foot, he said. It would be easier, yeah. Jesus Christ, he's like, look, yeah, 36 again. Par. Yeah. I had an interesting journey writing this episode because I, like, started looking into Doctor Barwin and I did a few hours of research and then I realized that his story on its own just wasn't enough for a full episode. And I was starting to be like, oh *** **** it, I gotta start over again. And then like, by accident Googling, I just came up across another doctor like that and another and another and another and it's like, Oh my God, this is like a whole thing. Yeah. No, I had. Well, that's the thing. Like, you hear those stories like, every now and then it's like, hey, some fertility Dr yeah, did the thing. And then it wasn't until you like. Then there was another. And then like, oh, they've never put those stories together. Yeah, well, and nobody's, there's not a single, like, nobody's keeping track of this ****. Nobody ever thought it would be a problem. So there's just no, there's no infrastructure set up to make sure it's a *******. It doesn't happen. It is a weird scam because for a long time, there were no victims. Quote UN quote. Yeah, because everyone got what they wanted, seemingly until the. Maybe grew up and was like, hey. How come I'm hairy and you guys aren't? Yeah, and then and then they walk down to the CVS and like, hey, $20 DNA. Ah, and then it all fell apart. Let's fasten it, because I don't think they thought. I think some of them knew, but I think some of them thought was like, this is one of those things where it's like everyone kind of gets what they want. Yeah, but yeah, they didn't. They did not Buddhism. So Billy told you *************. Karma, yeah. So, Billy, how you feel today? You know, we, we asked a question at the beginning of this as to whether or not these were fake doctors and they're definitely had him D's. But I do still feel the same thing is going on in their heads as is going on with the other fake doctors we talked about where it's an ego thing. They want to be seen as great doctors, yes. And in these guys's case, they did get MD's, so they went further, but they were still fundamentally the same kind of grifter, I believe. Yeah, if not more dangerous, yeah, because they're more willing to put on the airs in a way that the other ones weren't. Yeah, and I think, like the untold story with like Doctor Barwin, like, it might be that all of the baby mishaps in his fertility clinic are the least evil. He resulted in his career because he was working as a gynecologist for years. While clearly unqualified to do it. Like, who knows how much cervical cancer he missed or like, whatever, like other **** *** you can **** ** as a gynecologist who can't pass the test to be a gynecologist, like, I'm sure there's more darkness to Barwin story in particular. I think there's probably more darkness to every one of them because. Yeah, like you said, like, if they're willing to do this shortcut for this, they're not looking at everything they should like a real doctor. Yeah. It's like they're dermatologist in LA that are just you go and you're like, you're not a real dermatologist, you're just injecting **** into rich ladies faces. Oh yeah. You're just shooting stuff into people's lips. Yeah. And they're like, uh-huh, yeah, you want you want your weight card too. And you're like, I gotta get out of here. Yeah. But yes. To do all my weed card. How much is it cheaper? Is it less than $50.00 because the other fake doctor I go to charges? $50.00 Doctor Wrinkled Lab coat says it's 45. See, I'm so torn because I love the whimsy of the the. I wish the the fake medical marijuana industry had never changed. Well, it there was a, it's a real industry. Yeah. That started for like, really helping people. And then Southern California really took it and we're like, yeah, OK, yeah, yeah, it's a medicine. Yeah. And then yeah. And yeah, that's what happened because it started in San Francisco. Were they really gave a **** about gay people that were dying? Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. And there's one of my very favorite marijuana clinics in San Francisco is, like, named after this guy who was, like, the partner of the guy who opened it and the dude like that. The shop is, I don't, I don't remember the name of the shop. I don't think it's that. But like, the dude, the dude who opened the shop, his partner died of AIDS. And, like, he opened the shop because he had these dark memories of having to, like, go buy weed from shady drug dealers. Like, try and like, help his lovers like appetite and, like, fight his pain and stuff. And he's like, it was just so demeaning to have to do that for you're a sick person. You love that. I don't want anyone to go through that. So yes, I don't mean to say that, like, medical marijuana isn't a thing. I just, I love how ******** Southern California's medical marijuana industry got. It was beautiful. So beautiful, where you're just like, I could see the ocean when I got my card. That's hilarious. I can see the ocean. The doctor has a framed picture of the Mona Lisa smoking. Blunt on his wall and it is nailed to the wall next to all the symptoms of what you can say to get it. That's my that was my favorite one list, which is like, which one do you got? And I was like, *** ** * ***** what is this? Yeah, it was great, but I do. I mean, there's a lot. My thought is, like, I'm about to get a vasectomy. So now I'm way more a little worried than I was. Because, Oh yeah, because you just think like, oh. I gotta find the right doctor now, because you can't just be like, yeah, you gotta be careful about that ****. Damn it. Yeah. It was just a little more homework than I was gonna do. I was just gonna go like, who? Who did that? Now have to look into it and be like, hey. You don't have a history of ******* this up there. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's not a bad idea to look into with any doctor, and it's probably unfair that I'm going to make the title of this be all fertility doctors are ********. But that is going to be the title of this episode. And if you want me to revise my opinion of your industry's fertility doctors, lobby for there to be any kind of regulation of the industry whatsoever, just any kind. Any just a law saying you can't trick women into using your sperm, like or you have to go give your sperm at a sperm bank. You can't just skip that step and do it at the thing. Maybe yes. If you are a doctor, a fertility Dr, and you give your sperm to a sperm bank and then somebody uses it, fine. Yes, yes, of course, of course, yes. You need that one step. I think that's an important step that they all that that that people seem to have. Problem with. I I'm really wondering what it was like to work with Barwin, because I'm betting at least a few of his employees had stories of like, Oh yeah, every time after an insemination he just goes and takes a nap. He gets real quiet, doesn't want to talk to anybody, usually smoke a cigarette. Yeah, he had a process and it reminded me of my husband. Why is he breathing heavy? So, Billy? Yes, you want to plug your plegables sure, BWD tour.com I'm adding dates more and more and then you can get my record. Billy Wayne Davis live at Third Man Records. We're just you can download it or you can whatever. It's just, you know, Google, Billy Wayne Davis and all that **** comes up. How about that? Yeah, I hate Google. Billy Wayne Davis. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. I think I'm on Facebook, but I don't really care about that. Yeah, just Google him. He's not like me. He doesn't share a name with the guy who produced godfather. That's awesome, though. Is it? Yes. That dude is as far as those dudes go. Pretty rad. That's a rad dude to share a name with. I will tell you, there was a sense of pride I got when I finally started showing up on the first page of Google results. With him like that took a lot of time in my career. Really put in the work. Put in the work. Yeah. I mean, I would say this like the way I've been on the paramount lot a couple times just to do Hollywood meetings there. It's the dumbest thing you've ever. They just want to say, hey, who are you? And, like, you don't care. And they're like, no, we don't get out of here. But you walk by Robert Evans office and, you know, people have like a sign or their little company. His is this cool steel sign, but it's his signature. And I was like, that's awesome it really. Like it was like, that's a ******* G move. It really was it. I was just walked by and I was like, tip of the hat, that guy? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's uh, you know, he's a he's he's the guy that he is and he's also 100 years old and he still has an office at the Paramount lot. That's crazy, too. I am going to be, now that he's stepping down, I am going to apply for a job at Paramount because they are short of Robert Evans. You should be like, hey, you already have that office. Could I just. It's got my name on my my job will be consuming my body weight in cocaine and green lighting movies. Kind of does sound, yeah. Sounds like the best job ever, I think. Yeah, and he's like, well, impregnated more ladies than those doctors. That's true. And every one of them knew exactly what they were getting into. Yeah, there was no lab involved. No, the kids stayed in that picture. Yeah. The guy directing professional edited that documentary for a full circle thing. That's cool. It's a good documentary. Umm. Speaking of good documentaries, you can find this podcast on the Internet at behindthebastards.com, where we'll have the sources for this episode. If you need to prove to somebody else that fertility doctors are an untrustworthy lot, you can find me on Twitter at I write OK. You can find this podcast on Twitter and Instagram at ******** pod. You can find by T-shirts at atpublic.com, behind the ********. And you cannot find Sophie, my producer on the Internet, because she lives in a cave and only comes down once every century, when her unique talents are needed to save the world from the devastation of the poison room. Pretty noble. Pretty nice, Sophie, you got a line you wanna, you wanna end this on? No? That's a good line like the solid, solid Sophie work. All right, guys. Episode done. Hey there, it's Ebony Monet, your co-host for the San Diego Zoo's Amazing Wildlife podcast. In this special episode, we're speaking with Doctor Jane Goodall about the fascinating journey that led to her impactful behavioral discoveries on chimpanzees. It wasn't until one of the chimpanzees began to lose his fear of me, but I began to really make discoveries that actually shook the scientific world. Into amazing wildlife on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts, sisters of the Underground is a podcast about fearless Dominican women who stood up against the brutal dictator Kapal Trujillo. He needs to be stopped. We've been silent and complacent for far too long. I am Daniel Ramirez, and as a Dominicana myself, I am proud to be narrating this true story that is often left out of the history books to read. Your has blood on his hands. Listen to sisters of the underground wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Alex Fumero and I host the new podcast more than a movie, American Me, a film directed by and starring Edward James Olmos. I'll be diving into the behind the scenes controversy, including an alleged backlash from the Mexican mafia. Several people who worked on the movie have been murdered. I don't want to speak about why would people be murdered for being in a movie. Listen to more than a movie, American me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.