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Hello and welcome to episode 5 of the Battleground Podcast. I'm Saul David and this week Patrick Bishop and I consider the point of no return in the Falklands war. Mid May 1982 when the amphibious landing force set sail from sunny Ascension Island and heads for the dark and stormy waters of the South Atlantic. The landing, though most of those on board don't know it, is only nine days away. We're also going to talk about the ethos of the 5000 or so men of three commando brigade, most of whom were on board the cruise liner Canberra, which is carrying 40 and 42 commando's from the Royal Marines and the third battalion of the parachute regiment. We're going to hear from an SPS participant in the little known storming of the Nile Wall Spice Ship and we'll also discuss the other special forces operation on mid May 1982, the raid on Pebble Island. But first let's talk a little bit about the Royal Marines and Paras. They both have very different histories. The Marines, the Royal Navy's amphibious light infantry, have been in existence since Charles II's reign in 1664. The Paras on the other hand were founded in the dark days of June 1940, as Winston Churchill looked for ways to strike back against the seemingly unstoppable Nazi Germany. It's a story I should mention that I'm currently writing about in my new book Red Devils. But let's get back to 1982. Patrick, you were on Canberra with three commando brigade as it headed down to the South Atlantic from Ascension. Tell us something about the atmosphere on board. Well, the overwhelming feeling you got was one of great confidence. Everyone was bristling with purpose. They're also incredibly cheerful. It's kind of weird. You're on this ship that only a couple of weeks before it's been sailing round the Mediterranean loaded with the blue rinse brigade, all very sort of pucker and an unwarlike. Now here the ship's absolutely crammed with all these muscular tattooed young guys. Yet the kind of cruise life goes on. So you have these sort of white livery, waiters serving up pretty nice food. As we go south, of course, the weather improves. You get to a point where suddenly you're in blue skies and sparkling waters and everyone's out sunbathing. And the general kind of feeling that you're on a kind of weird holiday was reinforced by the fact that you got music playing all the time over the ship's tan away. And whoever was doing this selection interspersed the hits of the day with more with kind of recent numbers that seem to strike the right note. So I remember very clearly the tide is high, blondie, sailing, rod Stewart. And of course, Oliver Zami, which as I've said before, is like the theme tune of the whole operation. And it couldn't really be more appropriate because the guys on board really were the boys from the mercy and the Thames and the time. This was their moment. You really got this feeling that this was their hour. This is a section of Britain. It's been overlooked disregarded by politicians of every stripe, but they're deeply patriotic. And you couldn't get a better image of that combination of force and purpose and patriotism than the image that a lot of you will remember of the guys just running endlessly round and round the deck of the camera in their Union Jack shorts. But despite the fact that it was all quite enjoyable, people were getting a bit frustrated, especially when the camera got to ascension. It had to sail around around the island. This is like three weeks at this point on. They were just sailing in circles around the island. This was a precaution because it was feared with some justification that an Argentinian submarine might be lurking in those waters. So they had to keep on the move. There was a bit of our now. We did notice to get a shore onto a sentient, which is essentially a kind of plug of volcanic rocks sticking out of the Atlantic. But it's not a very hospital place. And the swimming was curtailed by the fact that the seas are rather infested with shocks. So no one was that keen on getting into the water. Anyway, by the time we left, everyone was itching to get into action. And we were talking to one of the Royal Marines there, Mark Hanken, who's then a 17 year old Lancashire lad. We asked him about his memories of that time. My name is Mark Hanken. In 1982, I was a 17 year old Royal Marine Commando in 4 to Commando. Join the Thornton's conflict. I joined the Marines straight from school at age 16. I'd always wanted to be a soldier from as far back as I can remember. And as I was getting closer to leaving school, I started going to career's offices and getting careers advice. And it's joining that time that I think I saw some leaflets about the Marines. So I went and visited the local careers office in Liverpool. And basically, I thought this is what I want. It's the looks action packed. It was everything that I'd wanted to do as a kid. So that's why I chose to join the Marines. The feelings as we were heading down south was the politicians were trying to head off a war. And Osium Lads, we really didn't want him to succeed. We wanted to be involved in the war. We trained for it. We wanted to be tested in that sort of environment. So there was certainly a feeling amongst myself and the rest of the lads in the unit, probably the rest of the people in the task force. We wanted to go to war. You don't want to train for something and not have the chance to actually do that job. So certainly we were all hoping that it did lead to war at the time. In the Marines, the sort of such a close unit, I can remember the young officers who were in charge of each troop. And I look back now, you know, at the time when I was 16, 17 years old as a young Marine, just started training. They seemed quite old to me, but you look back and you think, they were only sort of 22, 23 years old themselves, so young to have that the responsibility that they had, you know, leading the men, but always thought our relationship between the troops and the officers was really good and it was quite close really. The sort of ethos of the role Marines, courage, determination, unselfishness, cheerfulness in the face of adversity, you know, the team where it was a great thing to be part of, being in the Marines. I think everyone that's ever been through training and got the Greenberry, you know, say you're never an ex Marine, you're just a former Marine, you don't stop being one just because you're leaving, you know, it's kind of unique. That was Mark Hanken, a role Marine who was on the Canberra with Patrick heading down to the South Atlantic and it was fascinating. I think to hear him talk about what a close knit bunch the Marines are, you never leave the Marines, you never an ex Marine, you're a former Marine, even if you've only been in a couple of years. He also talked about the ethos of courage, determination, teamwork, unselfishness and these are all aspects that are particular to the role Marines. I think it'd be interesting to get a take on the paras and to get that we spoke to Lieutenant General Sir Hugh Pike, who in 1982 was commanding the third battalion of the parachute regiment known to all as three paras. Pike and his men were also on Canberra and would play a central role in the events that lay ahead. So you're the first noncommando unit that's attached to the Commando Brigade, which of course originally was the ground force that they calculated might be required. Do you know why three parrow was chosen? I like to think it's with our relationship with the Ron Marines and the fact that we are keen rivals but very respectful of each other because we kind of have the same mental attitude and outlook to soldiering. But the reality was, I think it was it was luck in a way because we just happened to be at the spearhead stand up stand by battalion and therefore we were finger first and I think on the day out the House of Commons debate was on the south of there on the Sunday I flew down to Pymeth to an O group with Julian Thompson's brigade. Brigade Major was a good friend of mine who I've been at staff college with John Chester. I have to say a sensitive comment may be but I was absolutely delighted to find myself in three command air brigade at that point rather than another command of Taney Wilson who was commanding five infantry brigade. Well come on to Tony because I know he's a bit of a controversial figure at not least some of the comments made recently but you leave on Canberra I think on the it's either the eighth or the ninth of April. Tell me a little bit about the voyage down because you've got a battalion of I think of about 500 pretty prepped up soldiers. I mean how do you keep them busy? How did you keep them fit on the on the journey down? Of course there were three battalions on the Canberra ourselves and 40 and 42 Commando. 45 Commando was sort of scattered about various ships and had a more difficult time traveling down. So this is a big ship four times around the Promenade deck was a mile and and say a lot of running went on around the Promenade deck. Every day was a bit like a jigsaw puzzle because you are allocated various bits of the ship to get and do your training whether it was medical or briefings or whatever. The three battalions kind of moved about the ship like jigsaw puzzle pieces really and it actually was you know it settled down very well and so the Canberra was a big enough ship to be able to relax on to do fitness training on and to generally sort of keep pretty active. What was the morale of the men? I mean at this stage of course there was no guarantee there actually was going to be a shooting war and that you would be required. I mean was there very much a feeling we hope that will be the case. Oh yeah it's definitely. I mean from the very start I remember talking to a three parry before we left the barracks in Tidworth and saying look this is a combined arms campaign where we're facing completely different from anything we've experienced in the last generation or way. So yes we were extremely serious about it from the start and that was our job to be. It's serious about it but of course there was a lot of discussion with the back against the back cloth of the world service and news reports and all the rest of it about the other possibilities which are well known here the United Nations intervention and the heaven knows what else and Al Hague coming and going trying to supposedly trying to not sure whether whether it was suggested the other day trying to win himself Nobel Peace Prize or just been nice to the Argentine but anyway so there was a great deal of uncertainty and that was unsettling in a sense it was unsettling but our prime mission obviously was to be ready to go shore and fight a battle. I think there's a quote from some of the senior officers aboard I think possibly fearless it might have been Julian Thompson who said that the units they were taking down there were very much the first 11 and you've already alluded to that Hague can you tell me a little bit about the ethos of the parachute regiment at this stage you know that it's quite an aggressive infantry unit isn't it that's the whole point. Well yes I think aggressive is not quite the word I'd use I think it's something and there I think it's not the right word it's all to do with training really and the way we train and select our soldiers and the result is you have very very self confident even that the younger ones because they are sort of buoyed up by some of the more experienced guys the training does generate a great feeling that you can do anything which can of course get one into all sorts of scrapes but it's very important to basis for that capacity to get stuck in and do whatever you are required to do there is this very very positive attitude that prevails I think it's quite a competitive atmosphere as well and so we don't like to be coming second. How do you think that compares to the commandos I mean they have a different lineage of course the the original idea of of parrises you're going to be dropped behind the lines you you might have a raiding job in the second world or you might have a strategic role to take bridges and and key locations how does your role or your ethos differ from that of the Marines do you think the differences are quite subtle I mean I the raw marine approach seemed to be a little bit different from us a little bit more maybe I don't mean this disrespectively a little bit more respectful of procedures whereas I think we're probably a bit better cutting through the craft and minimizing the battle procedure aspect of things to be like but I think we're pretty similar early in many many respects and as I said earlier rather respectful of each other I think and therefore pretty competitive with each other so that was Hugh Pike as I remember very fondly as a very formidable leader someone who combined great obvious skill with a kind of degree of humanity degree of kindness and I think what he said was very revealing about the mindset of these elite units the strong sense of identity this emphasis on excellence and also very very strong competitive street they don't like coming second but I was struck that when you you mentioned the word aggression Hugh pushed back on that one because I think Paris and the Marines don't like to be thought of simply as blunt instruments they also see themselves being rather thought for those that is that what you've got out of it yeah I think there are distinctions which we can clearly hear between the two I mean Hugh Pike is very much at Paris are more you know they make it up as they go along or I think he was trying to say that whereas the Marines as he put it do things more by the book I'm not sure the Marines would absolutely agree with that but one thing you get from both those extracts is that these are thinking soldiers who like to find imaginative solutions to problems they're not just super fit they were that as well and highly trained but they're also thinkers even down to NCO level and I think that's what probably sets them apart from the average British infantry yeah I suppose they struck by marks remarks about the code of unselfishness I think that's something that's really really important it's the glue that holds military units together at every level from regiment right down to to a section ultimately soldiers aren't fighting about ideologies they're not fighting about you know the political objectives of the war leaders they're fighting for each other they're fighting for the buddy standing next to them in the trench or whatever yeah this is a long debate frankly Patrick isn't it why do men fight I mean governments and political parties would love to believe that they're motivated by these big sort of badges of a country and you know maybe even a political system you know liberal democracy but as you and I really know having studied soldiers spoken to soldiers and read their diaries for many many years it's really about the the small group and that's why units like the Marines and the paris fight so well because responsibility is to bold to the small group and it gives them the opportunity not only to look after each other but also to make some decisions and this sort of so called command control on the battlefield you know it was like the Germans are very good at this aren't they you know you you allow responsibility to a low level it makes a big difference in a small unit fight yeah exactly what the four clansiers essentially comes down when you when you get to the battles it really comes down to decisions being made by NCOs by sergeants and corporals and people like Julian Thompson are the first to to recognize the leadership qualities that were evident all the way down the chain now there's something else that you mentioned that we need to talk about now three paris they've been part of five brigade but they've been detached from five brigade and bolted on to three commando brigade for this operation that's something that Hugh was obviously quite pleased about now exactly at the same time as three brigades heading off from ascension what remained of five brigade was setting sail from Britain on board another cruise liner the Queen Elizabeth II the entry and five brigade into the story changes the narrative quite significantly it introduces an element of controversy which is going to resonate throughout the rest of the campaign and it's hard of course was the question of what five brigade was supposed to do when they got to the four clans were they to act as a reserve to garrison the rear area when the Marines and paris went forward or would they take part in the main attack and we're going to be speaking to a member of five brigade to get more of a sense of exactly what was going on now we're going to take a quick break join us in part two when we'll hear all about the storming of the novel spy ship by a special forces operator who took part and we'll also discuss the subsequent SAS raid on the Argentine airfield on Pebble Island welcome back on the morning of 9th of May two harriers of the RAF 800 squadron spotted the 1400 ton Argentinian fishing trolling narwhal 50 miles south of Port Stanley a Royal Navy frigate had spotted the same ship following the task force ten days earlier and warned it to leave the area it had ignored those instructions and the conclusion of Admiral Woodland this staff was that it was gathering intelligence as indeed it was when the harriers pilots asked for orders they were told by the captain of HMS Coventry to engage they both dropped one thousand pound bombs one missed the other incorrectly fused penetrated the ship but didn't explode and with no damage observed the harriers then strait the target with 30 millimeter cannon meanwhile the task force commander Admiral Woodward having heard about the action order the SPS to try and board the novel from helicopters and bring back any intelligence they could find among those who set off in sea kings and the links from the carriers invincible and hermbees was Shiner a sergeant in the SPS the mission was given to a SPS and all I was then tasked to do was be in the links helicopter to give sniper cover and gbmg cover if when when they were fast rockin down yes it was a quick turn around into the helicopters out there we the links was the first one in followed by the seeking with the fast roping of SPS down onto the novel and myself watched them and Kevin Covent fires they moved up to the bridge okay and before that in fact the novel had been engaged by the harrier itself hadn't it I mean did you actually witness that I the timings are a little bit tricky to get your head around but it certainly had been engaged by the harrier and not about quite badly is is that correct yes the harriers that strait it they they killed the captain um they take these legs off and um they'd also dropped a bomb on there now I think I'm right in saying it didn't go off but it put a hole below the water line it went straight through it and she was sinking and that's why the life rafts were in the uh of the crew were in the water except for a number of people that were still on board which were taken up by eight SPS and then the teams were recovered no sooner with the teams recovered um the novel sank we really wanted that boat that would have been an ideal service craft for us and being selfish here SPS to do various insurgents around the Falklands I mean you tell the story in typical SPS fashion which is you know it was a job we had to do and we did it but I we shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of an operation like this it the the trawler uh for starters is a relatively small target I mean most of the training that you would have gone in for would have frankly been on much bigger craft and of course it's much easier to land on a bigger crop like a oil tanker for example or even a cruise ship and so to land by helicopter onto a trawler is not an easy thing to do so you obviously they're coming down red a fast roping down onto it I mean you were watching did you actually open fire Shiner to lay down suppressing fire did you did you feel that that wasn't actually necessary no I was laying down suppressing fire I was more worried um about keeping my eye on and you got one corny of rion where the team is and keeping suppressing fire right from the bridge to the forearms now talking about the fast roping I mean I'm cred it's got to go to these pilots eight four six squadron I think was was down there it's like one four eight battery the naval guns via support teams you know you can't do anything without them in many ways on missions like this conventional missions like this great stuff to hear that from someone who was actually involved but we're also very fortunate to have got our hands on a previously unseen written account from an sbs operator who actually went aboard the narwhal it provides fascinating detail including the fact that the sbs operators found an Argentinian naval officer and an Argentinian petty officer on board confirmation as you say Patrick that it was indeed a spicy ship gathering intelligence they also recovered amusingly a large amount of intelligence material including a briefcase inside which was a passport sized photograph of Margaret Thatcher with several pins stuck in the photo but the drama interesting enough was far from over because you you think they're on board they captured the intelligence and the crew of course and also these Argentinian naval personnel but what they actually have to do is wait for what seems in the sbs operators words like an eternity for the sea kings to return from dropping the narwhals crew at the carrier task force and by the time they get back the sbs men notice that it's getting dark and the weather conditions are deteriorating they're getting particularly concerned because the only communications they have are through their small search and rescue beacons with a maximum 50 mile range eventually the helicopters do appear and as some of the sbs men were winched aboard two sbs operators who were also on the mission set standard charges on short time fuses below the waterline the sbs account reads on we then winched up the final personnel and stood off and awaited the explosions and watched the trawler after first up end and sink into the south Atlantic as sad spectacle we then started our journey back to the carrier task group or so we thought unbeknownst to us the task group had moved and we were running out of fuel the skipper of the sea king realized that we would be ditching at sea about 25 miles short of the carrier it was time to share this news with mother that's invincible the reply we received was we have turned hms glasco towards you at best possible speed she will appear in front of you on the horizon that's the best we can do the seeking pilot shut one of the engines down to preserve fuel we were now flying above the wavetops on fumes we eventually closed the distance to hms glasco with the fuel warning lights flashing pilot maneuver the aircraft restarted the second engine and started his descent approach to the type 42 unfortunately the seeking is too big for a type 42 but the pilot managed to position the aircraft with a rotted disc three feet clear of the ship's hanger the glasco's crew moved at lightning speed to get the fuel hose plugged in for a pressure refuel apparently the ship's crew had offered a check the oil and washed the windscreen the humor certainly served to break the tension in the cockpit with the aircraft refueled we made our way back to invincible at hermys and rejoined the rest of the special forces party we later discovered that the novel had been pressed into services as a spy ship the total flying time for the mission was four hours and fifteen minutes it's a great story Patrick isn't it and one actually that until now we've known relatively little about i mean there was a little bit of detail about the fact that the novel was eventually sunk but i've never read before the detail of the sbs actually landing on it and this of course is a skill that they're absolutely trained for and in the 1970s they they drill on things like the qe2 for just that sort of eventuality that there's going to be some kind of maritime terrorist act and they're going to be called in to deal with it and so it was great to hear the details of that sorry to interrupt you there so you just site me again that the kind of disparity between the sbs approach and the sbs approach without being too mean to the to the dear old sbs i think that if they had done that we probably would have known all about it by now but the sbs in the traditions of the silent service actually sort of kept that one to themselves until now so as you were saying the other operation around this time a couple of days after the novel gig was this attack on pebble iron and a pebble island is just north of west fulcland there was an airstrip on there which was causing a great deal of concern to the task force commanders it housed a number of pukara aircraft now these are kind of small twin prop aircraft which although they don't look very deadly posed a real threat to british troops once they were ashore the argentinians have been used them against their own people and they're ongoing dirty war against the insurgents so there they were sitting within very easy striking range of british forces once they got onto the islands and the sbs proposed a raid the sbs commander mike rose that is proposed a raid to take them out on the night of the 14th 15th of May two ce kings which were operated by eight four six naval air squadron took off from hermese laden with forty five sbs troopers from d squadron under the command of cedric delves now you'll remember this is the same outfit who had not exactly covered themselves with glory in the south george episode well they certainly made amends that night they landed undetected they managed to sneak up to the airfield and lay charges on all the aircraft sitting there this will revive memories of the early days of the sbs the first operations they mounted in the western desert were exactly this sort of thing creeping up undercover darkness to enemy airfields laying charges on the aircraft blowing them up and then skid battling so having placed the charges on the aircraft they then opened up with machine guns etc which was really the signal for hms broadsword of hms clmorgan who had crept into positions just offshore to begin bombarding the airfield well eleven aircraft were lost that night and that was a great relief to julian tomson and three brigade now here's a story we read about in the history books and it was told to me by the commander of the essay as an of hawkers Mike rose now he maintains that adral woodwood was extremely reluctant to move his carrier fleet close enough for the helicopters to be able to reach pebble island fearing quite rightly that that would then put them within reach of the argentine air force but rose persuaded him that it was a vital op it was worth taking the risk not only because of the buccarras but because there was a radar station on the island that could track air and sea movements so after the essay's boys returned woodwood was very eager to hear whether the essay has had actually taken out the radar station rose told him that there wasn't any radar station they just made it up in order to persuade woodwood to okay the raid and he told me with a chuckle that he didn't think the woodwood ever quite believed him again after that is a typical story isn't it Patrick as you were saying a minute ago about the different way the essay's and the sbs operate the s a s flying by the seat of their pants trying to get in on anything they can pushy upfront and the sbs professional calm doing things you know under the radar and not expecting to be thanked for it I mean you know absolutely the different ethos in the two groups are there for all to see well there's so many things in the mix in an operation like this which has been thrown together at the last minute you've got to be very quick on your feet you've got to take what opportunities arise and thank heavens there was a good enough kind of give and take by a large among the various command structures among among the various leaders of the various groups to actually allow this degree of flexibility I mean this this place that is at a considerable advantage there are the Argentine stuck on the islands they can't really it got that much room for maneuver and we're making use of every opportunity we get and as we'd say now as a kind of disruptive factor which can be very creative in warfare yeah fair point Patrick and as everybody knows I'm slightly biased towards the sbs having written the authorised history of their second war war story so it's important that you give a little bit of balance for the sbs that's all we have time for now in the next episode we'll consider the planning for the landings on East Forkland why San Carlos was chosen and we've got some great actualities of what actually happened on D Day 21 May 1982 as the Argentinian Air Force tried to take out the landing force do join us goodbye