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Hello, welcome back to the final episode in our Falktons podcast. I'm Patrick Bishop. And today's Saul David and I will look back at the immediate aftermath of the war following the surrender of the Argentine garrison in Port Stanley on the 14th of June. Inevitably I suppose the end proved to be a bit of an anti climax. Yes, exactly so, because after all the intensity of the fighting of the previous 24 days of the land campaign, the victors now have to get down to what was in effect the pretty boring administrative task of arranging for the shipping of the defeated Argentinians back home. More than 11,000 prisoners were heard it on two ships for repatriating. Troops were then set to work clearing up minefields, which the defenders had scattered all over the place and restoring water and electricity to Port Stanley. Now Patrick, you were there. What was the atmosphere like immediately in the days after the surrender? Well, it was a kind of flatness about the whole thing. You can imagine throughout the campaign we've been fantasizing about how we were going to celebrate when we liberated Port Stanley. But in the end, it came down to sitting in the saloon bar of the upland goose and having a few beers. There was a kind of strange, huge relief of course, but with relief as the adrenaline edge, a slight sense of melancholy creeps in. There was some surreal moments, because most of the guys, we had the capacity once in a while to get on the satellite communications. So actually maybe talk to someone back in the office or something like that. But most of the military guys didn't have that luxury. So there was a kind of huge queue of people lining up to make use of the satellite telephones, which were on board some of the ships, which were now docked in Port Stanley Harbor. I remember queuing up myself, we had to make use of them to talk to our bosses back home and send our copy, etc. And I remember queuing up in front of me in the queue was none other than Prince Andy, helicopter pilot, already, you know, a bit of a hero, done a great job there as they all had. And there he was in front of the queue. And then he got to the phone and he was put through and I, and we all heard who was saying, hello, mum, which was one moment to savor. Just I mean, you know, his reputation has taken a toll, but batteringly, but I think it's worth remembering that he did do his duty admirably there in the foreklens. Of course, once he'd say, all you want to do is get home everyone that just wanted to get the hell out of there, much as we loved the fort from does, etc. There was a you know, huge feeling that okay, the job's done. Let's go. The journalists were fortunate enough to be able to get out in the first couple of Hercules, one that C130s that came in from ascension. So we drew lots as to who was to get out in the first one. I was fortunate enough to get a seat, well not a seat actually because they're very very cramped inside the Hercules. So we had this very long, cold journey back to RAF Brights. Norton, when we arrived there in the early hours of the morning, we were, I think even though we knew it was a big deal, we were taking a back at the welcome we got. There were loads of family and you know, a couple of notables there to welcome us. And it was, it was only then I think they dawned on us. One of massive national occasions, the whole thing had been. Yeah, and I think your experience Patrick is fairly typical for a lot of the soldiers too, although of course they came home in a much more leisurely fashion. Even those who went out on the camera at Anne the Norland, I think found the same thing. It took them as I say a month to get home, but many would later say that the time spent on the crews was actually godsend because unusually after a war, it allowed them to decompress, talk about their experiences and share their grieving over lost comrades. Now when the camera finally arrived home, back where it started on the 11th of July, Julian Thompson remembers the occasion. Well, we came here in camera and it was one of the most extraordinary thing. We didn't realize we were going to have this wonderful welcome. It was a shock. Big shock. I mean, it was a shock to be met by so many boats coming out and had huge crowd on the, on the, the key side, greetings. And really I was actually speechless. I didn't know what to say. I was being interviewed. I can't believe it was. I think the sound I'd check it used to be on today, until quite recently. He was then in television journalists. He interviewed me and I said, I couldn't, don't have this. I couldn't think what to say. I said, I think I'm an emotional shock couldn't think of anything else to say. It was amazing welcome. I was so glad for the boys because they deserve very bit of it. I was so glad they were being given a proper welcome home. In a way, I felt my God was so lucky. Now, but in the 10 years or less before, and American troops have been spat on by their own chaps, their own citizens in America. I thought my God was so lucky that this is not an unpopular war and that our families and friends are not under pressure from the inhabitants for doing something that is not, not liked. And it was a terrific day. I was Julian Thompson with his memories there. I went down to welcome them home. It was an astounding scene with bands playing. The whole key side was a sea of union jacks. It was like something out of the Victorian era. And the camera looked amazing. It was streaked with rust, which gave it a very rugged and heroic appearance. And indeed, the ship and its ship's company had put up a fabulous performance. They had gone from ferrying retirees around the mid down to the freezing South Atlantic with a prospect of an excess that slamming into the mever present without a word of complaint. So, yeah, it was a great way to come home. Yeah, and I think it's worth doing a little bit on the point I've just mentioned, which is the the decompression aspect. I think we both know Patrick, you know from personal experience. I know from talking to many, many veterans that after battle when the adrenaline subsides, depression, a kind of deep sense of depression and regret can flood in. And the transition from the military to the civilian environment as a result of this can be very disconcerting. You're dealing with people, civilians, that is, who basically got no idea what you've been through and what you're talking about. Yeah, so this gave the the lad's time to work through what that experienced. With the only people who could really understand them, it was tremendously valuable. I think a lesson was learned there and later on, you know, post tours in in Afghanistan, certainly there was a policy of staging back by a cypress. So, the troops could sort of have a decompression session there. It was only a couple of days I don't think it had anything like the same healing and calming effect. Yeah, it's also very interesting. I think what Julian Thompson says about the about his personal relief at the warmth of the reception. He didn't really understand, noted many of the servicemen down south, the extent to which the nation had got behind the wall. He referred to Vietnam, of course, and memories of how Vietnam could wreck the reputation of the military were still fresh in his mind. And he also talked a little bit about Northern Ireland. It wasn't the most popular conflict and therefore soldiers weren't held particularly high in the civilian population's estimation, but they all changed with the Forklands War. Yeah, I think we can definitely say this was a huge moment when the military's place in the heart of the nation's affections was restored. And of course, they've maintained it to this day. If you look at polls about who the people most admire, the military comes out at the top very near the top, right to this very day. Well, that was one big consequence of the war, but there were others and after the break we'll be discussing how the conflict affected the political and social landscape of Britain. Well, welcome back and looking at the footage of the camera's returned to Southampton, I noticed one banner hanging from the ship which read Maggie Rules OK question mark. And as even the leader of the opposition Michael Foot agreed, Maggie had indeed played a blinder. Simon Jenkins who was watching events from his privileged position as political editor of the economist tells us what he remembers of the transformation in her fortunes. Everybody thought, everybody in our profession thought that Margaret actually would be gone by Christmas 1981. I had a lot of bets out on Christmas 1981 and the Tory party conference I was going around laying them. I was so arrogant. But I thought she stayed to Christmas. Most political editors thought she'd be gone by Christmas. She was that unpopular, including in her own party. She survived through to the east of the following year. She was getting a teeny bit better in the polls, but then his catastrophe happens. She was in a very, very bad way. She wasn't thatcherite then. I mean, she was still really a very conventional Tory leader fighting for her position. Everything being obsessed about money. I mean, money, money, money. The forkness was about money initially. When she won, she was totally transformed. She was famous around the world. Her relationship with Reagan was quite different after the forkness war. And I think she was able to do things. She would not have felt able to do because of it. For the following year after the forkness war, she was on cloud nine, rather unpeasantly so, I think. But it did change things. And you have to think of some facts of the 1970s. Britain was the basket case of Europe. It just wasn't in the 1980s. And the credit for that really muskete thatcher and the nature of her leadership. She was never courting popularity. She never worried about headlines. She simply got on with what she was intent you do ruthlessly. And I do think she changed. She changed Britain. I really do. Well, that was Simon Jenkins there. Yes, I think there was a definite kind of step change in the way Britain approached life thereafter and the way that it was seen. You've got to remember that when we went into the war, Britain was still kind of psychologically in the era of strikes, of internal dissent, basically acceptance of decline. And this completely unexpected event changed all that. And I think everyone would agree that hence forward, there was a bit of a spring in relation step that certainly hadn't been there before. Yeah, you can see that Simon Jenkins thinks that it's a big sea change. There are things going on internationally which certainly Britain's role in the world was enhanced after the fall. And he talked about the new relationship with Reagan. It's interesting, isn't it? We always think looking back, it had been and always was very strong. But actually this is a key moment, isn't it? It makes the Americans sit up. And not just the Americans. It also made the Kremlin take notice. I think we also realise, particularly from some of the debriefs with senior members of the Soviet establishment after the end of the Cold War, that actually they were beginning to look at Britain's role in the Falklands War as emblematic of NATO more generally. And therefore, there was a tough task for them to actually take on this Western alliance. So they were very, very much new, a sea change in the way Britain was seen, but not just Britain and NATO also, I think, Patrick. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, the Russians are always looking for science and weakness, science and decadence, often it's wishful thinking. But they certainly had their eyes very firmly fixed on how we were going to react to all that. We see it in Ukraine the way that they're constantly prodding and pushing and hoping to find a weak spot. And it would have delighted them had we backed down, I think. On the American side, you've got to remember that although Tories would have you believe that the relationship has always been very strong, we can rely on America, that's not really the case at all that hadn't been since Suez. So the Americans didn't back us in Suez. They thought our whole kind of strategic mistake we made there in thinking that we could topple NASA and get away with it showed a kind of real sign of the kind of losing of British imperial faculties, if you like. So since then, there'd always been rather a bit kind of iffy about how reliable we were. And indeed, as we saw at the very beginning of this story, they were by no means falling over themselves to help us at the outset. So this was a real kind of restoration or be a temporary, I have to say, of American confidence in Britain. Another thing we should talk about is the actual outcome for Argentina. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, the one side of the equation is what the Falklanders did or didn't want. But we also need to remember that the nature of the regime that we would have handed them over to if we hadn't fought the war. Or indeed, if we'd found some kind of negotiated settlement that probably didn't please the islanders, but please the Argentinians. And what you've got is a pretty nasty military dictatorship. We talked about it right at the beginning of the podcast and what you get in the end as a result of the war is the end of that military dictatorship and the introduction of some form of working democracy, which continues to this day. Absolutely. And I think the fundamental underlying lesson of all this is the power of the concept of deterrence. If you've got armies and you don't use them, what is the point of having them? So I think that there was a moment there at the very beginning when the whole kind of concept of a military might and Britain being prepared to use it in its own interests was in the balance. And the decisions that were made very firmly tilted are in my view in the right direction and showed that there is a point to having a military. There is a point of fighting when you have to fight, despite all the ghastly consequences that flow from it. And that the right thing was done and the right consequences flowed from it. Yeah, of course the war doesn't solve the Falklands problem in the sense that there is still a question mark about its long term future. Yet the war now occupies a prominent place in our national memory and that in itself has made it a no go area for political initiatives to do something about this. As long as people remember the Falklands and as long as the Falkland Islands want to remain British, there seems to be I think no prospect of us ever handing them over. Yeah, I think that's obviously a cause of some regret. To some people, Simon Shinkins among them. But I think he's in a minority, him and the people who think like him are very much still in a minority. And for most people, the war remains kind of uncontroversial simply because here was so obviously the right thing to do unless you're a big strategic thinker. We're going to hear now a few last thoughts from some of those involved starting with Falkland and Leona Roberts, who was a young girl on the islands during the invasion occupation and then Mike Scott, who was CEO of the Scots Guard, and finally Mark Hankin, a very young Marine with 42, come on down. I mean, I know this is a question you're bad at say yes to, but well worth the task force being sent and that blood being spilled do you think to make the point that you can't just invade a country that doesn't want to be ruled by you? Yeah, I mean that's actually really quite a difficult question to answer in so many ways because I think again as a mother, I imagine losing my son in a war and I break your heart to think of. But the reality is that that was a profound moment for the Falklands. It was an absolute watershed and it was undoubtedly the right thing to do, to invade a small peaceful country and never be right. And the Falklands I think have worked really, really hard since 1982 because we feel this enormous sense of responsibility, of gratitude to the whole task force to everybody who went through so much, to restore the freedom, you know, of a very small number of people. So I think we all feel that quite personally and there's no way in reality that you can never repay that debt. You can never properly say thank you. So I think the only way that we have ever found that we can do it is to absolutely make the most of the opportunity that was given us and to just build our country to best live a country it can be. And we've worked really, really hard at that. And you know, the Falklands have been transformed since 1982. We've come a huge way economically, socially, politically, you know, in every, every way. And that is something that we can try to demonstrate to our veterans when they come back, to the families of, you know, the guys who died. And to everybody who fought in the war. And, you know, we know, we know actually that's appreciated. I was, I was in dinner just last night with some veterans who were back for landing day. And, you know, they say it really does help. But actually, you know, coming back is very much about laying ghosts to rest. But also they feel that that value of what they did, you know, is very, very evident here. They can see how far the Falklands have come. And they also are left an absolutely no question of the esteem and love that we hold for them as Falkland Islanders. And you know, it's 40 years ago that's unchanged from, you know, a year after, from a day after the liberation, you know, it's, but it's a difficult one because how do you say that the loss of people's husband's son's brothers is worth it? You know, that's, that's really hard. And I, as I say, I think as Falkland Islanders, we feel it very personally, very, very deeply. It was certainly worth it. Although we, we lost people, it, it had to be done. If we had failed, I mean, failed politically for a start, we would never hold our heads up again politically. From the military point of view, it was a very good wake up, if you like. We'd been very good in Northern Ireland. We knew what we're doing in Germany. But we'd never really been tested in that sense. I mean, Northern Ireland was a special case and we both severely tested there. But W really knew if we were going to take on the Russians, for instance, quite what was going to happen. But there, we had done a proper battle, a battle which people in the Second World War would have understood. I mean, my father was still alive who fought in Normandy, understood it entirely. It was a very simple, straightforward war, which civilians and professional soldiers could understand. So that was important. I think what is the lasting legacy for me and I had a reunion just as a lot we came before last. The whole my own cronies was the comrade ship. We depended on each other. It doesn't matter. We were left handcarned or a landscape. We were all in it together. We had a sort of ethos, if you like. I'd been in that battalion, man and boy. There were people I knew from way back and people who'd come in during my time or I got to know. So we were a family. And there's no value issue to fight better with your friends. And that was certainly so. Nobody was going to let anybody else down. It just simply wasn't on the cards. And that still comes through. When I see my own friends, whether they were guardsman or whether they were captain, it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. We were all in it together. And we are still all great friends and charms in the battalion. Was it a worth it? For me, definitely yes. You can't have countries invade in other you know, democratic countries and just doing what they want to do. But you know, I think would I still be saying that if if it was my son killer or I'd have come back with some horrendous injuries, you know, I was lucky enough, you know, thankfully I made it through one scaved, you know, nothing physical or mentally. But I know many weren't as lucky. And my thoughts will always be with him. I mean, I can't think of a day since that I've not thought about what we went through or the lads that I was with. And I know many of those winners lucky as I was. Got to look in back. Yeah, I would say it was definitely worth it. You know, it was a privilege to know and work with the lads that I was down there with. Absolutely brilliant men. Well, those were the words of Lihanna Roberts, Mike Scott and Mark Henkin. And it's quite moving stuff there, I think. I'm particularly from Lihanna Roberts who although she is in no doubt, as you would expect that the war needed to be forward, it was the right thing to do, as she says. She also makes the very important point that she couldn't imagine losing a son like many mothers and families of those servicemen who were killed. And that therefore she to this day and so do all the other Faulkner Nullers feel an enormous sense of gratitude. And she also points out that there's no way you can ever properly repay that debt. So the best thing for the Faulkner Nullers was to, you know, do the best they had with their new opportunity. And as she puts it, they have managed in those 40 years since to transform the islands socially, economically and politically. And and it's that legacy, I suppose, that would convince or you would hope would convince some of the family members of those who died that it was a war worth fighting. Yes. Well, many times in my career as a war reporter, I've struck by the truth of the words of the great French songwriter and poet, Jacques Prever, killed Connery Laguerre, he wrote, what bullshit war is. That's very often the case, I think, but in the matter of the Faulkner Nullers, I never felt that not only was the cause just, but it proved again the point about how the greatest danger can bring out the greatest selflessness in human beings. I think we get that from the soldiers, this sort of tremendous fraternity that men in arms feel for each other in battle. Yeah. And you and Mike Scott's words, you know, rang absolutely true. It's not just his his bond with his fellow officers. It was with the guardsman more generally to have fought within a family. It's one of the reasons, rather, regimental system was so important to the British army for so many hundreds of years because generally speaking, if you care about the people you're fighting with, you tend to fight a little bit better. I mean, we know that in defense of their land, the Ukrainians are fighting tooth and nail because their families are involved. But same goes within a regiment, it is a family and it's amazing that the sort of bonds that are forged in battle. I think this brings to mind, of course, the Dr. Johnson's famous famous comment that every man who hasn't been a soldier would regret that to the end of his days. And it's probably true Patrick. I know that I myself have been written about war always wonder the great question, how would you perform when you were in the similar situation? And you've been very close. Do you feel too Patrick that you would like to have experienced war as an actual soldier? Yeah, I absolutely did. And you know, it's inevitable really. First of all, I suppose to an extent you've answered the question, what would happen if someone fired a weapon in my direction? Would I spot a panic and run away? Or would I stay calm and try and do something about staying alive? Which I think we all passed that test. Would I actually go forward with a gun in my hand to try and take up the person who's shooting at me? Well, we weren't actually asked to do that. But it did over and over again across your mind. I think what we loved was I felt a huge admiration as I said before for the military. But it also made me see that they are a slightly different breed. You do have to have that extra thing in you that is prepared to court danger, extreme danger and risk your life in a way that is, it doesn't really come easily to most of us. I think another point worth making is that even if you are a soldier, it was a matter of huge shagram if you were not in the Fortlands because it's a bit like again to go back to the British classics. Henry V, gentlemen in England, now Baird will think themselves accursed. They were not here. I think it for a career army guy, not to have made it to the focus, not got the Fortlands gig was a matter of great regret for the rest of their careers. Yeah. Just one thing I should add, having spoken to many of the veterans that we've interviewed for the podcast, one thing's come quite clear by talking to a number of them. That is yes, there was this decompression period, as you say Patrick, coming back from the Fortlands, and that undoubtedly helped. But the long term care of those who've been in combat certainly wasn't there after the Fortlands. You could argue even today, after the experience of the recent campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, there's still not a proper duty of care for soldiers once they're back and once they're out of uniform basically. I mean, the military in effect washes its hands with them. And I think the long term care of people who've been badly affected, and we've heard it in the voices and in the words of people who are in the Fortlands does need to be addressed. This psychological damage that is done to a lot of them, you need long term care. And that of course is an investment and it's easy for the government to ignore it and say we're simply not going to pay. Yeah, it's very interesting subject. I think the Fortlands are getting interesting because it's the first time that PTSD is really recognised. You know, there's a huge number of cases. I've seen guys in recent months who were still clearly very much affected by it and have these periodic lapses into a kind of really quite debilitating condition of PTSD. And that's 40 years on. I think one of the very statistics have banded around one of them is like a third of those who are actually in the war zone suffered some sort of PTSD. It comes in all shapes and sizes of course. And I think it's the government rather than the military who've washed their hands of it because it was largely left to individual units to identify, counsel, start some sort of program of care. And of course that's all down to resources, ultimately people move on, things move on. And so it was left to the kind of, you know, the family ethos of the regiment to deal with it. Some were better at it than others. I think the Paris have taken it pretty seriously and I think the Marines have taken it seriously. But you know, ultimately you've got to actually have a proper structure for all this. And as you say after all this time, this isn't really in place. I just want to add one other thing is that even though the wars of the early 20th century were not as high tempo perhaps as might appear the focus was it was a very different sorts of stress. So going up patrolling in Southern Afghanistan day in day out, knowing that at any second you might trip a IED that's going to blow your legs off. That is a terrible terrible thing to have to go through day and day out. And I would argue is perhaps more psychologically eroding if you like then, you know, going into an old version battle like the Faulkland's terrifying, you know, that was as well. Okay, so now that's the end of the Faulkland's narrative. But we'll but don't worry, we'll be doing a bonus episode answering and discussing many of the fascinating points you've raised in emails and messages to us. I'll also on Twitter and that's going to go out next week. Battleground the Faulkland's has been a terrifically enjoyable experience for us and we're so pleased that so many listeners have said how much they've enjoyed the result. Of course, it wouldn't have been half as good, were it not for the great contributions from so many participants who gave up their time to tell it like it was. And for that we owe much to our friend and collaborator Matt Nixon, well done Matt, who was a huge help in tracking down great interviewees and offering excellent advice. And all of this has encouraged us to embark on a new series of Battleground. The next one is going to be bang up to date, examining the origins, progress and likely direction of the war currently raging in Ukraine. Week by week we'll be bringing you the latest from the battlefield, talking to those doing the fighting and those doing the thinking. We aim to bring the same rigor and depth to examining a current conflict as we hope we have to this war of 40 years ago. Do join us next week for the final round up of Battleground the Folklands War. And do look out for the launch of Battleground Ukraine, coming very soon. Goodbye.