A murder case has many layers: the victim, the crime, and the investigation. To truly understand it, you need to dissect each piece of a tragic puzzle. Join Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger every Wednesday for an insider’s perspective, as they reveal to you the Anatomy of Murder.
Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:00
A fire consumes the life of two young brothers. There’s no evidence to say it was murder, but a disturbing family secret raises suspicion.
I wanted my babies. I was screaming, Judd, down there, please answer me. You know, please, that I was here, that I loved you so much. Please come to the window. I was a grandfather at the time, but my grandchildren were the exact same age as the two victims in this house. Please come to the window and, you know, I know I would come. The gravity of losing two people to such a scene was the first kind of aha moment to say, man, how did this happen? Don't be nervous. All you have to do is tell me the truth. You've got to tell me the truth, okay? So when I ask you a question, I don't have to pull teeth. I want a straight answer, okay? I'm Scott Weinberger, Investigator of Journalists and Former Deputy Sheriff. I'm Anna Sige-Nikolazi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of investigation discoveries, true conviction. And this is an out of me of murder. Today's case is going to start off with a sigh, because it is a case that was challenging to say the very least for us to cover, and it's likely going to be a difficult one for you to listen to as well. And that's because the victims in this case are two children. In our careers, we've worked, covered, and produced shows about cases involving children who have fallen victim to homicide. We are well aware of the impact it has on listeners and, of course, TV viewers. One of Weinberger media's TV shows on the case with Paul Azan has aired more than 350 episodes and only a handful of those involve child victims, which does fall in line with a lot of similar programming. For viewers, these cases just bring another level of heartbreak, and sometimes just too much to bear. There was a lot for us to weigh when we were deciding if we would even cover this story. And that's because people shy away from this type of content because it's just too disturbing me. It certainly is for me, it certainly is for us. But this happened and children are victims of homicide. During our interviews with prosecutors and investigators for AOM, we always ask them this question, what's the most challenging case you've ever worked? What's the case that has affected you the most? And hands down, 10 out of 10 times, they tell us it's the ones that involve a child. So we decided that we weren't going to shy away and we hope that you won't either. In these child homicide cases, we often talk about what would it take for someone to take a life of a child, such an innocent victim. We see homicides for all different reasons, for love, for money, for revenge, but to take a life of a child. What would that take? What kind of person would do something like that? And that's what we're hopefully going to at least help answer today. We're going to explore that psychology by talking to two different types of investigators. My name is George Harms, I'm an investigator, slash supervisor with the West Virginia State Fire Marshalls Investigation Division. We recently interviewed another fire Marshall investigator for an earlier episode of AOM, which was after the fire, as you might remember. And so again, what they do is they basically investigate fires to see if they are suspicious or accidental in origin. My division, we are all sworn law enforcement officers and we are tasked with doing fire in explosive investigations throughout the state of West Virginia. So when we arrive on the scene, anywhere from doing interviews, digging the fire scene out, a lot of times end our investigations up with physically arresting people. As it turns out, ourson investigators are kept extremely busy in the state of West Virginia. With a fatality rate in fires is at times two to three times higher than the national average. We should think about that in real numbers. So if we just use the number 10 fires, as the average, again, I'm just making that number up, in West Virginia, that number might be 20 or 30. That is indeed pretty staggering. And we have done as many as when I was here, 85 in one year and that's on anywhere between eight and 10 investigators. On January 24th, 2017, the West Virginia Fire State Marshall's office was contacted by fire chief Dave Brinning to investigate a house fire in Martinsburg, West Virginia. And told me that we had two children fatalities in the place. So I started headed over that way. But before he even got there, that night, George was already familiar with the crime scene in a way. I knew the location because actually I investigated a fire two weeks prior to this fire right across the street from that residence. It's a really nice trailer park, as well maintained. Some people have trailers there and some have, what they call modular homes, which is I would say a little more sturdier built. Upon arrival, George is met with a homeowner as Molly and Justin Delgado, who were already talking to police. And so I just went over and start listening. He was asking her questions about, you know, what was in the house, what was in the children's room. So I sat there and started listening and taking notes. These really are just getting the quick basics because obviously safety concerns are going to come first. You know, medical attention needed to be received. So the more detailed interview that information is going to come later. Moments earlier, the scene was chaos. Since the initial 911 call came from the children's mother and she described that her two children were trapped inside, some of the local firefighters from an all volunteer department jumped into their own vehicles and headed towards the home. Just with turnout codes, helmets and boots, one such member described breaching the door, making his way inside, only to be battered back by a wall of toxic smoke. His air pack was on the fire engine, which was still making its way to the scene. All this is the clear indication that the first thing that the firefighters did when they got there was to literally rush inside, not wasting any time to try to deal with the fire at that moment. They just wanted to see if they could rescue the two children they had been told were inside, but they were unsuccessful. George set out to talk with Molly and Justin, the parents of Justin Jr., also known as Judge H5, and Delmer H3, who were both tragically killed in the blaze. George understood the gravity of their grief. I just hope that when I went in there, I could maybe find the cause and origin, and it would be something I could explain, because when you lose to children, that's devastating, and the family would like to know. So looking through the crime scene photographs, which we have, but will not be releasing, obviously, any of those that are graphic in any way, here's some of the things that you see inside this home. It is a mobile home that from the outside, it is very well cared for. You can see the screened in porch, and inside that porch, what stood out to me was the bicycles that were inside, and inside the home, there was the entryway. The door was open, so we had a suit or smoke staining throughout the rest of the modular home. The boy's dad, Justin, worked with heavy equipment, moving dirt around as George described it. Several sets of tractors and excavators lie within the home, Justin told the investigators that his boys wanted to be just like him. And then there's the kitchen, and the thing that stood out to me was the Christmas wrap that was still on the table. And remember, this is January, so whether they were seeing people later and still wrapping gifts or had been left behind, it just kind of reminded me of unfortunately joy that had been in the home before, disnow tragedy. There was a lot of sort throughout the house, not a lot of flame damage or thermal damage in the living room, the kitchen, the master bedroom. As you walk through the kitchen area, outside of the water damage and the amount of debris, it's relatively untouched by the blaze, same with the living room and also Molly and Jesse's bedroom. But as you walked through the mobile home, you also had the master bedroom, and then in the back was one bedroom shared by both boys. As I went into the bedroom, I saw these race car beds, and in between them, it was like one of these plastic toolboxes that the kids have. The damage is evident. Two children's beds on the same side of the room approximately 52 inches apart, both with signs of significant damage. The bed on the left of the room, a red race car frame with a mattress, and to its right, a child's bed where the springs itself have melted. There was a lot of damage to Justin Jr's bed, which would be the furthest away from the door, and then where Delmer's bed, there was burning right on top of the bed, but not all the blankets were burned away. As I was researching the case, and really looking at the materials, listening to the audio, and looking at the pictures, it is the reminder to me of why we shy away. As people, as citizens, as a prosecutor, I really went out of my way not to do these, except when it was absolutely necessary, just because they are just so hard. But again, for the same reason that we are talking about it as I literally like wept when I looked at some of these pictures, which I don't do often, trust me, it was also the reminder to me of why it's important. It's not only remember these children, but the importance of talking about these cases to hopefully someday make them stop. It was sad. I hope never to do another one, but that's probably not going to be the case. It's pretty tough, it's emotionally tough, but you got a job to do. As far as working theories on how this fire started, the challenge was finding the source of the blaze, but at each turn, nothing made sense. We examined all the electrical outlets, we examined the hot water heater in the room, we were trying to find if there was any matches or a lighters or anything. And I actually crawled underneath the house and looked at the wiring that was directly below the bedroom. There was no electrical activity. All the outlets looked good. I finally left around six o'clock in the morning. And when I left, I could not find what we consider a competent ignition source that would have ignited those beds at that time. So we're talking about children as victims. So with that, you also have to consider, is this a fire that children somehow could have caught? Because we've all heard those scenarios. So I'm thinking maybe one of them got out and was playing with the light or something. We try to keep an open mind on all investigations. We don't want to have any biases when we go into any sort of investigation. But then there was another theory that came from the delgados themselves. Remember, this wasn't the first house fire in the very same neighborhood. It was another one that happened in the same area just two weeks earlier. So the question is, could they be related? The father-in-law of Mollies, he said, the one that they were having troubles with one of the neighbors in the neighborhood, then that was the house that burned prior. And he had a theory that could they have thrown a malt-off cocktail in that room and started it on fire. So with several theories at play, but no definitive answers at all as to the cause of this fire, George spoke with the parent to get more information, but he decided not to do it alone. I also contacted an investigator, Don Lockhart, with the ATF, Don and I, worked a couple cases together and Don's very good interviewer. Don and I went up to where they were living at with Mollie's parents two days later and just said, hey, it's time for you guys to come down to the office if you feel comfortable to do our sit-down interview. Bringing in other agencies to assist, especially with direct experience and resources is always a strong move. George would ask the boy's mom Mollie to sit down first. He and Don would audio tape that interview. Now we have portions of that interview for you and a warning about the quality of the audio. It is not as good as we normally have, but we thought it was important for you to hear it firsthand. So just tell me what that process is when you put your kids in bed. Well, I always turn their show on because I leave the TV on all night long. The TV that's in their room, that one that's on the wall. Oh, okay. But no, not in there. I turn it off, but for a big time, I leave it on all night long. Okay. And I took Justin and Ben after I gave him his medicine stuff. Don Mark got in his bed and I laid with him. Okay, so Don Mark was in the red bed. So red bed. Yeah. Okay, the right synchronic bed. So you said, a little after nine, you went in there. Yeah. How long did you have to just fall asleep? It was like five minutes. He fell asleep. So Mollie wasn't home at the time of the fire started. She was across the street at her parents home. You could literally see it. When she left the home, she told investigators that her husband was asleep and so were both boys. Okay, so we're looking pretty close to tennis. Yeah, because I remember laying in the bed with him and I looked at my phone and it was 10 o'clock. So once he went to sleep, what do you do? I either go in the kitchen due dishes or I go in our room and just relax and watch TV. Okay. Georgian Don are well aware they are talking with a woman who just lost her two children. But Mollie was also someone who could assist them in finding out the true origin of the blaze. We noticed that there's no norm on the door for the kids' room, right? But the door open or closed? When I left? Yes. It was open. About how far, all the way? All the way. And you can hear how the tone shifts as they get deeper into the interview. It starts off as more open-ended questions. But then as they pivot, you can hear them getting more pointed and direct and not as open-ended as the interview has started. You said they don't play with matches. There's no matches in your house, right? We don't even buy that. I know that. Okay. No candles, right? There was no electric heater in there, right? No. No electric... There wasn't even an extension cord in there. No. All the wires was to the TV. The only wires was to the TV and the only thing I found in there and the wires that actually the switch it goes up to the lights. You know, so I mean, you were there within 10 minutes of this firestorm. And you didn't smell or see anything. Not then, nothing. Up to this point, investigators didn't know what caused the fire. But they could tell something about where the fire was located. The fire was concentrated just on the two beds of the boys. It definitely seemed purposeful. The one thing to keep in mind is Molly saw the fire. She saw the fire from across the street. It was Justin who was alone in the house with the kids. I know that there was no ignitable liquids like somebody in my poor gas lane or something like that. But that didn't happen. That didn't happen. Something in this sheets happened. Something happened and that area on the bed. How does a firestorm in the bed? You know? I'm sorry, I don't. But I probably already have your suspicions on who may be behind this double homicide. Could it have been like how a family member had suggested someone on the outside that came in to start this fire? Or could it have been someone on the inside? While investigators had a piece of evidence that was going to clear that up. The thing about this is her parents have video. So you already heard some of what Molly had to say. Next, it's time to hear a bit from Justin. Remember as firefighters arrived, they found Justin desperately trying to get back into the home. First responders took notice of the suit mixed with tears which covered his face. He was very emotional. Justin was a big man at the time, probably 300 pounds. But a big man too. He had a pair of sweats on and some boots. And his face was covered in sweat. He was crying and you can see the tears coming down his eyes. And just very emotional. He inhaled some smoke along with his father-in-law, Mr. McCombs, and also his mother-in-law. So they needed to go to the hospital. So they went to the hospital. And I told them that I will be re-interviewing them in the near future. So sometimes people ask, well, did tears tell you anything about someone looks suspicious to you or not? And I'll just say, you know, you just can't tell based on those tears alone. You know, sometimes they are crocodile tears, someone who's been involved in something can certainly turn on the waterworks. Although there's that gut feeling that it's something, you know, put on rather than sincere. We've said this so many different times and see that people react differently to the loss of a loved one. And as a general rule for me, it is an indicator of guilt or anything else. But it definitely is worthy of looking into further on both sides. When I ask him what he did that day, Justin works, I call him a dirt worker. He moves a lot of dirt, heavy construction equipment. He gets up like a 330 in the morning and he said, well, I got up a 330, wash my hands. I mean, literally going through his day-to-day routine. So after they got just a bit of information at the scene, Justin had to go to the hospital to be treated for smoke inhalation. So after he finished being treated there, he was later brought down to the precinct to be questioned in more detail. And this is some of what he had to say. I woke up. I don't know if I heard the foreign one. If I heard or just choking on the smug, but when I woke up, I couldn't see nothing. And I was coughing. Okay. So I don't know. That was the coughing that woke me up. I heard something. I just know I woke up. No, like I said, we're trying to concentrate on timelines here. And you may or may not know this answer. But when you woke up coughing, do you know about what time it was? No, I could barely see anything. Okay. I mean, I just got up and I couldn't see nothing. So when you got up, okay, you're coughing. Yeah. How high is the smoke? Because your bed sits up a little bit and you're room. Where was the smoke in your bedroom? And was your door open or closed? My door was open. Okay. The bedroom door was open. Okay. And the smoke, I remember it was like it was laying on top of my body. Okay. So it was banked down at that point. Yeah. Because I was young for my family. Towards your children's room. Towards my children's room. Okay. I couldn't see nothing. It was like a gray and brown numbed fall. Okay. I was coughing and gagging so much. I just had to try to find a way back around. I tried to get out the front door and it was locked. And I was trying to get out. So listening back to the San Asiga, I was thinking, you know, was this an issue with the door because his vision was impaired? Or was he understandably fumbling with the lock? I just thought it was this really odd thing that it had to be unlocked for me outside. Like, I don't understand a house that is locked from the inside, but that you couldn't get out without a key. It just seemed to me very quickly when I just first looked at it that I don't know, was he locked in purposefully? It just, it really didn't strike me as something I would have expected to see as part of this case. You know, it's not the first time I've seen a situation like this before in my days on the road in law enforcement. I mean, there are some parents in my area who decided to lock their children in, fearing they would just walk away and leave and get hit by a car or just wander around the neighborhood. And just to think of that, it's just so incredibly dangerous. And here is that very situation that you fear that you get locked into a house when a house is on fire. I managed to open the window and I was yelling. I said, help, help. I was in my way. You know, I was yelling for my, you know, you know, young, my kids name, you know, I was like, help, help. I seen Molly come across the street walking the dog. I said, baby, it's the, it's the boys with you. It's the boys with you. And she said, no, why? I said, the house is on fire, the house is on fire. And I said, her, and she, she managed to unlock the door. I guess she had her key on her. She managed to unlock the door. And I thought I grabbed a hammer, but I had a black mag body. Here was another one that kind of made me think it out a little bit. You know, Justin thought that he was grabbing a hammer, but instead it was ultimately a flashlight. Scott, when you saw that, didn't mean anything to you, didn't make your head turn at all or just like, oh, okay, he thought it was one thing, but it was another. Yeah, not really. I hear what you're saying, but that's not a huge indication to me about someone who's fumbling for a door and trying to get out and grabbing anything he may have to break a window, try to get through a lock. Just grab anything he can to aid his escape or even aid his way back into the kids bedroom because by the sense of his role as the father of these children, you'd think he'd want to do everything he could. Grab anything he could to get back into those kids. I beat the one window out. There was a metal warbore and I stood on that and beat the rest of it out. And it was still a little too high and I couldn't get my big body through the window and I cut myself all up and all that and my feet and I didn't feel no pain at that time. I couldn't feel it now. I was just one of my babies. I was screaming. I was screaming, Judd, down there please answer me. Please, that is here. That is how I loved you so much. Please come to the window. Please come to the window and I must have been screaming at the top of my lungs. No, I... Listening to Justin tell investigators about what happened inside the home, you know, it is more than something to make your stomach turn. You know, it really just...it's sickening. But I also, you know, it comes back to that gut feeling that I said before. You can't walk into a courtroom with a gut feeling but is the way that he talks about, you know, he just lost his babies and it just sounds and feels so sincere, the way that he speaks. But it's also important to evaluate your subject as part of the process. And here's what was also really important for me. His physical injuries. There's every indication based on his injuries that he did make an attempt to get in to rescue the children. He was also in a position to try to get out but clearly, if someone had intentions to start a fire, wouldn't they make sure they had a point of egress out of that trailer, would they actually lock themselves in, hoping that someone would come along and unlock them? It seems unrealistic to me that he would be facing a locked door with no key if his intention was to start that fire and get out. At the end of each interview, we ask them both for their phones, if they would just voluntary give us their phones. Justin reached, says, anything for my babies, hands us the phones. Now Molly, she gave a bunch of excuses. It took probably 15, 20 minutes for us to talk to her and eventually with her husband's encouragement, she turned over the phones to us. You know, I think it's important not to overreact to this type of behavior. But, and it's a big but for me, I would continue to look at Molly closer. I mean, you know, maybe she's someone who felt like she had the type of messages that were embarrassing, things that you don't want to see that have nothing related to this incident, to this fire, and potentially a criminal act. But on the surface, by refusing her right, not to turn it over and potentially wait for a warrant, that is not a big red flag for me. While investigators are diving into these phones trying to see if there's anything that will aid them in investigation, they were actually given a very different gift. And that came in the form of surveillance video of the outside of the crime scene. So the next day, I went and picked up the DVR and took the videos and then start looking at them. George learned that the surveillance video he was about to look at came from Molly's parents home, which was just across the street and the camera angle showed in real time what occurred outside the home just moments before and during the deadly blaze. Three quarters of the house we could have seen, but somebody could come up the backside theoretically and we would not be able to see him from that video camera. So yes, it's still possible someone could have snuck around that backside or even fire upon the house. But when George did thorough investigation, he didn't find any evidence of anything like that. We rolled that one out by doing testing and running in Celerin, K9, plus there was no other glass or wicker in. I didn't find any components of a Moltoff cocktail. Another thing that you can't see on the video at the time presumably that this fire starts and turns into a blaze is Molly. I didn't see Molly make any attempts to go in to the structure, but that's just me. I mean, my children were in there. I would probably try and go in, but I know physiological, how tough it is when you are trying to go into a smoke-filled structure without any sort of air packs on. It's really tough. So since we've had the opportunity to look at this video, I think we should explain it a little bit further about the quality or lack of quality the video has. So, you know, the details are a little bit sketchy, but there's two important things. Number one, it exists. And number two, it's timestamped. And that's going to play a very big role down the road. I never want to really put myself in someone else's shoes, but I have to say that Molly's actions just did not sit right with me. You know, yes, you see her kind of pick up her pace and we're told that she opens the door for Justin. But her children are inside. How does she not at least try to get to them? And, you know, while there may be an explanation or just might be on her makeup and something very innocent about it, it just really made me pause right then and there. I found myself studying this thing several times, just to kind of walk through those critical moments in the beginning. Moments after the fire begins, you can see Molly walking away from the home. And even though the flames are becoming visible in the children's bedroom, illuminating the windows, then there's a moment where she backs up, walks towards the home, and opens the door for her husband who's trapped inside. You know, you see neighbors running from their homes, you know, one of them can even be seen dressed in a robe. The neighbor's movements show real panic. The question for me is, why are they the only ones showing that type of panic? So while there's this pause and this suspicion based on Molly's actions or more importantly her inactions, that's really all it is. That's not evidence. That's not proof of any kind. But for investigators, that was at least in certain ways soon about to change. Well, about two days later, we get a phone call and this person basically said that her job was to mentor younger women for the church to try and help them in marriage. So she had a relationship with Molly and then Molly told her this. I understand that at some point Molly had approached you and made some statements. The first year of Delmer's birth between when he was born or that it was sometimes I don't remember the exact time. And she approached me and we were talking and she said she was having dreams about her being and killing her. She called her babies at the time. She was calling her babies. In a couple years earlier, Molly said that she had dreams of killing her children. Oh, Scott, you know, you hear that. It's like, wait a second. She said what? Saying that is one thing. But coming from the mother of two boys who were killed in a suspicious fire, you know, that is a really big deal. You know, is this postpartum and we've certainly heard things like that and many people unfortunately suffer through various degrees of postpartum and even have terrible thoughts but luckily never turn those thoughts into any type of reality. So I'm not willing to go there based on that. I think background and context is very important because statements like that made it a vacuum without any proper context can be, I mean, kind of, you know, run a mock coming. It can mean so many different things. I was very upset that she was saying something. I was coming back that somebody would say something like that because it was very abnormal. Right. And I did feel at that come, you know, hey, this is a red flight. Is that enough to rest her? Obviously, we all know the answer is no. It might be something I'm going to hold in my bag of evidence for down the road if you get more evidence or actual evidence of her guilt in this case for later. What it says to me is they have to really start digging deeper into Molly more in present day Molly. If investigators confront or re-interview her knowing what they know now, what would likely happen? The question is, would she confess or would she give excuses to dismiss her own statements? Investigators and prosecutors never need to present motive in a homicide trial, but it is often a lingering question. And here, the question is this, if Molly did murder her two children, why? What would compel a mother to do so? Let's just change the focus right now. We'll come back to that. And it has to do with Molly's secret life. How's your marriage? It's rough. It is the unthinkable. The mother of two children ages three and five is now the prime suspect in their intentional murder. So George and other investigators set out to canvas for more interviews. They talked to neighbors, they talked to more family members, they're building a case. They talked to people that knew the family, had seen the family, see how they interacted with each other. We did a lot of interviews and the lady that was in the modular home next to them. She gave us a very interesting statement. So the neighbor said that it was about 10 o'clock that night and she's sitting on her computer, which is on against a wall, which just happens to face directly to the children's bedroom. And she said around 10 o'clock, she heard a noise like she never heard before. And I asked, was it a dog? She says it wasn't a dog. It was some sort of screen that like she never, never heard before. And it's the type of thing that now in retrospect, we all know what it likely must have been. But to me, it doesn't change anything for the investigators, certainly not for the investigation. The video may play a much bigger role than I even initially thought. I mean, remember, it's time stamp. So now using it, it becomes a powerful tool in the timeline. I mean, if you can establish at the time that the neighbor thought she heard those screams, and then you look at the video of when the initial fire is ignited, because you could tell a little bit of the spark, which illuminates from the children's window, it's lining up. Of course, the best person to learn from about Molly is going to be your husband Justin. So here's what he had to say about her during his initial interview. If your wife is over the past six years, been pretty good, it's not been perfect. Can you expand on that? We split up for two and a half months. She moved in with her mom for two and a half months. She wanted the wars because she was committing adultery. Is this recently? Two years ago. How'd you catch her? I felt like she was sneaking around and I confronted her and she lied to me. She was messing around and said it was, you know, she didn't want to be married no more. Yes, infidelity happens in a marriage, but how often does it lead to the murder of your own children? And this affair happened two years prior to the fire? Or perhaps there were others? I kept thinking when I heard this, Scott was, oh no, not this. You know, we hear about the scenarios that you murder the spouse to avoid the divorce. But here we're talking about children. It's a question that investigators felt it was necessary to know. And remember, they had both Molly and Justin's cell phone. So text messages and calls could answer that very question. Except when they analyzed Molly's phone, there was a pretty big problem. He also determined that all the text messages prior to the day of the fire were deleted and he couldn't recover them. And I actually took him to another agency too and they also could not recover the text messages. They did recover one message. There was one text message left from Wildman and said I'm bored. Who is Wildman? Is that her nickname for her husband? I mean, we all have nicknames for one another. And again, whoever's nickname is Wildman, I kind of want another origin or maybe not. But what it said to me is the text message itself, which said I'm bored. Well, that's definitely someone who you communicate with regularly. You're not writing that to someone who you only have a specific purpose or you're only in touch with them once in a while. So whoever it is, it's someone who is in her life day to day. We learned that Molly was having an affair with a guy named Mike Wildman, I guess, was a screen name. And we seen the numerous phone calls to Mike that there was something going on. And with a little more digging, Georgia's colleague was able to find out that she wasn't just dating Mike. We did some digital Facebook stuff. Molly was having an affair with Mike and LadyName Stephanie. Molly was dating both Mike and Stephanie at the same time. So yes, at the same time. So again, that relationship is not between two, but actually between the three. So investigators bring Mike in for questioning. When did that relationship with Molly start? Give me a ballpark. I don't have a place to. Where did the first time you met Molly? I don't know. I just held that ballpark. So your son, you heard? So the obvious thing that stood out to me in listening to Mike was it wasn't where they met, but yes, his son knew her, but it's how his son knew her. So your son, him and Molly were friends? Yeah, we kind of friends. I don't look like that. I don't want to use it. Mike, Mike, what kind of friends? I guess lower still, I guess. Mike's son, Mike Jr. apparently had a relationship with Molly. Okay, so she was having sex with Mike Jr.'s name, yeah. And then I guess once that relationship was either over or not happening, Mike stepped into Mike Jr. shoes and start having a relationship with Molly. Now Scott, there's got to be a reaction to this because for me it was like take a shower, scrub my skin. I really don't want to know anymore, although of course you want investigators they need to solve this case. I'm just continuing to keep my investigator journalist hat on and just say there's all kinds of people doing all kinds of things, but how does that affect my case or my story? But it turns out that the interview with Mike did yield more information, which was that it wasn't just Mike and Stephanie that the relationship was between. Molly was dating lots of people. Could any of these people played a role in the murder of her two children? That is as we continue to go down the path to see if actually it is Molly who is to blame. I asked Mike or Stephanie if they knew if Molly had any plans and they said no, they would never be a part of something like that. So I asked both of them for their phones and they actually gave consent and I took both of their phones that night and took it over to Sergeant Boober and he analyzed their phones and all their text messages prior to the fire were also erased. Factory reset. I'll put it out to all of you. How suspicious is this? What do you think? I think it's very and you know I wonder what are they trying to cover up? We uncovered other people who have had a relationship with Molly. I got a search warrant for her Facebook. I wanted a guy who reached out to her. He says how do you like it? And she said what? She's being married and she says I like being married but not to whom I'm with. That is further support that at the time that these two little boys died Molly was not happy in her marriage and we can jump a couple steps and assume that she wanted out. It was obviously that she was not happy in her marriage. Again, this gives some credence to a potential motive. You know wanting to be at a relationship. Now that is a far jump between wanting to divorce your husband or leave your husband and murder your children but it's still leading down that same path. You know George has answered some important questions in the investigation so far. The case against his prime suspect Molly Delgado appeared to be purely at this point and a see a circumstantial. At best right because yes we have the background which certainly makes our heads turn. We know that she's unhappy in her relationship. So those things at least point in her direction but that's it. They don't even know the obvious cause of the fire. There's no statements tying her directly to what killed her boys. No one saw her inside and by all accounts we can see that she wasn't. So there's no proof at this point to bring her to court. After Mike and Stephanie and Molly not being truthful we pretty much start zeroing in on Molly at this point. So we had a developer plan. We knew we're going to have to interview Molly again and we knew if we had an opportunity interviewer that was going to be our last shot. Bringing her into a situation where you confront and care with some of the circumstantial evidence that you already have or none of it but reading her in the room to determine if she has any remorse. So with all these things in play and really nothing at all it's going to be imperative that at least try to keep her talking. And that as we know is going to come down to not only Molly's own makeup whether she is apt to talk or just shut down but from the interview's perspective is going to take skill and strategy that is going to be their best chance at actually getting some evidence in this case. And this next move wasn't going to be done alone. I'm Stephen Patrick. I'm a retired criminal profiler on the behavioral analysis unit in Quantico for Virginia. On the next episode of Anatomy of Word. We knew we're going to have to interview Molly again. That was going to be our last shot. I'm not going to tell you. It's our investigation. So how do we get in front of her and how do we get the truth out? Clearly shows. And that's with Molly. We've been talking for about an hour and a half now. Do you trust me? Tell us. Tell me. Why not? Cunin next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an audio chuck original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Frisetti Media. Ashley Flowers and Submit David are executive producers. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?