Anatomy of Murder

A murder case has many layers: the victim, the crime, and the investigation. To truly understand it, you need to dissect each piece of a tragic puzzle. Join Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger every Wednesday for an insider’s perspective, as they reveal to you the Anatomy of Murder.

Needle in a Needle Stack - Part 2

Needle in a Needle Stack - Part 2

Wed, 28 Apr 2021 07:00

A woman can’t be found. Would a cloned phone lead to her discovery, proving a ruse, or help catch a killer? For episode information and photos, please visit

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If you're looking for a new show unlike anything you've ever heard before, check out audio Chuck's latest series killed. Each episode of killed covers a story that you may have never read because it was killed before it got published. I'm Justine Harman, who some of you may know from my show OC swingers, and I'm here to bring these dead stories back to life binge killed right now to get the full story. Hi everyone, Ashley Flowers here and I have exciting news to share. My debut novel, all good people here is officially out now. Our fans are blowing up our social talking about it. You do not want to be left out and the worst thing that could happen is for someone else to spoil it for you because there are some wild twists in this book. If you love true crime content, mysteries, and a grown up Nancy Drew style detective work then I have a good feeling you won't be able to put this book down. So what are you waiting for? Grab your copy of all good people here now, wherever books are sold previously on anatomy of murder. Wanted to come by and talk to you a little bit about Lisa. Lisa had just recently moved to be with Paul Edwards. I was told that you're friends with Lisa. Yeah, she told me she wanted to move. She's telling us that she packed her stuff and left and he was fine with it. Boyfriend? Boyfriend? The city has cut them its hand. There were small amount of blood under the vanity in the bathroom. I'm telling you, you're not convinced. Our lead homicide prosecutor at the time said you gotta think outside the box. Light the fire. I'm Scott Weinberger's, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff. Quazi former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's true conviction, and this is anatomy of murder. We're talking about Lisa Spence, a recent immigrant from Trinidad who's now living in Broward County, Florida, and she disappeared back on October 7th of 2009. So police got involved and it didn't take long before they started to suspect her boyfriend Paul Edwards. A foul play. If this is going to be a foul play, they wanted to find her. So after investigating this case for a couple of months, police now created an elaborate ploy to test Edwards. They cloned Lisa's phone and they sent him a message pretending to be her. The fixed wing aircraft we had, I can't even tell you how many unmarked cars the US Marshals involved. Everyone was set up, knew what we were going to do, everyone had their jobs, and then it was simply placing that task and getting on the radio and telling everyone involved in Texas in place. Stand by. You know, this is a bait and surveil operation, and by sending that text message from a phone cloned with Lisa's number, Detective Danny Smith was hoping to rattle Paul Edwards. One of the things I was thinking is what he should do if he's innocent, immediately call me and say, hey, Detective, I just got a text from Lisa. She's fine. That's what an innocent person would do. A guilty person that knows they're guilty doesn't call the police. Now, if you're going on the leading theory that Lisa was dead and her body was potentially dumped somewhere, they want to see if Edwards would see the message and go check out if the body was recently discovered or it's a crime scene betting by following him. That could lead to a discovery, but the entire team knew that was the longest of longshots. After sending that message, police staked out his home and tailed him when he left. Finally, we see Paul Edwards exit his mom's house and jump in his car and start driving. It was odd because he was essentially driving and what I call heat run. So he did a lot of U turns. He did a lot of drive somewhere and then maybe a 3 point turn and then come back the other way. He would go up and down the same St a couple of times. What he did for me, it sounds suspicious. Why would someone leave their house and go nowhere? So what was he doing now? Well, that he thought that he was being followed. Paul ultimately comes back home and he's in for the night and we ended up calling the operation. So while you know the mission is dismissed and all the agency members are going back to their normal jobs, the two detectives have to go back and determine that if any of the surveillance provide any evidence, theory, value at that point, it's just good old fashioned start searching. I mean, I'm always one to think about. You might think that you have lemons, but maybe there's lemonade in there. And I think that here, now, they have this swath of area to go back and look and just maybe there's a clue in there. If they look hard enough or if they're able to retrace his steps and look very closely, that that just might be the thing in there that maybe, hopefully leads them to Lisa. We review the video of everywhere he went. Where are good spots that you could dump a bot? And I know it sounds callous to say it like that, but we're looking for. That a body could have been, for now, two months or close to two months. Now, Paul Edwards went to several locations, but he didn't spend too long in any one place, so you need to determine which of those spots could potentially be a crime scene, if any. Bit of an interesting move here. You know, while Edwards was out driving around, he stopped at a house and they went to that house and they knocked on the door. And his friend answered the door. Paul drove to a friend of his house, knocked on her door, and spoke to her. We ultimately went back and spoke with this friend. When I heard Detective Smith talk about that, I kind of turned my head a little bit because for me, that's a bit of a risky move. What do you think? I think for sure, I mean, right, because the obvious thing is that are they tipping off Edwards? And the answer is likely yes. Maybe Detective Smith did want Edwards to know that he was on his trail. He did want him to get nervous and make a mistake because essentially, if you're looking for a mistake to be made, you want to be watching him. She remembered Paul's coming to her house and said that Paul came by to install an appliance. Now, this friend said that she didn't have the appliance. She was looking to make arrangements and then she would call him. So she felt it was a little bit out of sorts. It was not exactly what she had planned, which in turn made investigators feel a little weird about it. So that was one stop that Paul made, but he drove around for a while that night. In my opinion, and again this is just my opinion, I think he was driving by the sea or their police cars or their crime scene vans and crime scene tape and I think he wherever he went at that time, I felt he was driving to see if her body was found. So with that, you have to look at what are the locations that are conducive to quote UN quote, a body dump site, which is, in our world, law enforcement prosecutors. That is the terminology often used. It's just a matter of getting out there and searching every day. Scott, I'm sure that you know this too and you have your own take on the areas that you find most conducive that you've seen before. Now, I've seen two different types of body dumps in Asia, the first being a remote location, minimal foot traffic. You know, the kind that you could just walk up on or even unfortunately at times smell before you discover it. And the next is the so-called drive by dump. And it's just as described, you know, going to an area like a side of a road over an embankment where you just dump a body. And the rationale there is less. Hands you're going to be seeing doing it. Paul drove to an area in Miami Gardens like a big open field. There's a lot of trash out there. It looks like a lot of people use that area to just dump bulk items of trash, and he drove probably within 100 yards of that. Now this is a big area. We're not talking about any small plot, and they started searching it, searching it for days. Steve, we've got our normal search team out and as you can imagine, we're on about 15 or 16 different places that we've searched and came up empty. After a while of hitting dead ends, they decided to use another tactic, cadaver dogs. So this is just another day and another try and I'm already trying to figure out the next spot and we had two. Human remains detection dogs out there, and rather quickly, investigators got a hit. We had one of the dogs run over to a 55 gallon drum a barrel and then sit right next to it, which is their indication that there are human remains in or around that area. Now let's talk about that barrel. It is an actual shipping barrel, and depending on where you're from, you may or may not be familiar with them. But I can tell you by being a prosecutor in Brooklyn and up here there is lots of people from the various Caribbean communities here, and these shipping barrels are very commonplace, and they are a common way to actually ship goods, clothing items back and forth between here and the various islands. Now that may be true of other places too, but culturally it is very commonplace here. The handler went ahead and put that dog away and then we deployed the second human remains detection dog and that dog did the exact same thing. It is a large barrel now. It's not a wood barrel like a beer barrel, but it is that size barrel. And if you're not sure what that looks like still and you want to see it, you can go to our website,, and you can see an actual photograph of the shipping barrel that we're talking about. So at that point we knew that we had human remains in the area. But is this Lisa's final resting spot? We just didn't know who it was, and it's unfortunate, but there was a very good chance that this had nothing to do with our case. Now, Scott, you know you are Mr Canine because you worked in canine for years. So how likely is it that two dogs could be wrong? These dogs are trained to detect the difference between human and animal remains. They can work through their track and ignore decomposing squirrels or birds while honing in specifically on the scent of a deceased human. And here's where it sometimes becomes an issue. Heat and humidity can reduce the dog's ability to identify remains, both through the interference caused by the dog panting in order to cool down and decrease the spread of the scent. Remember, this is South Florida. High humidity is the norm. And that's why I believe the second dog was deployed as a confirmation. But the real confirmation would come from the Emmys office. So we're not sure what it is. We opted not to open the barrel and keep everything intact and then we call the Dade County Medical examiner to come out with their investigators, take that barrel back to their offices in Miami and do a full examination. Anna Sigga So what would be the reason why investigators wouldn't open the barrel until they got to the Emmys office? It's to preserve any potential evidence. Now, again, they don't know what's inside of there, and they don't know if this is Lisa Spence or someone else, or, like Scott said, even if it's human remains at all. But they're betting based on where they found that that's inside a barrel, and now two cadaver dogs have hit on it, that it's probably going to be something that shouldn't be there. So having to think about if there's going to be a case, whether that is least suspense. Or anybody else. And by the way, even there's animals in there that shouldn't be in there, that's a crime too potentially. So they are making sure that this is handled correctly, that there is no contamination, that there is not movement that might impact evidentiary wise why this person was placed in there. More importantly the way that they were placed in there, how they're found. And so it is pretty standard when being done in the best way possible to bring it to a more secure place and in this case let the medical examiners handle it from there. The barrel was opened outside in their Sally port area. It was documented. It was poor out onto a large tarp. But it isn't what was in there that shocked the medical examiners. It's what wasn't. Most of you probably know that I love a good mystery, and playing games on my phone is sometimes exactly what I need when I'm taking a break from work. Enter June's journey. It's a hidden object murder mystery game set in the heart of the 1920s. 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So the shipping barrel is brought into the medical examiner's office, they literally have it out on top of a tarp and they open it and a body comes out. And the first thing that you notice is there's no head. It is a body and there is no head. You know, you have to step back from the investigation and the science for a moment and just realize that this is a human body that's been decapitated. Having to deal with that now for the medical examiner's office and for the investigators, yeah, of course, ID is really important. And trying to determine whether this is your victim, least suspense is critically important. You have to step back and say, you know, just how unfortunate and inhumane the situation is. You know, every homicide, every body that we see, whether it's in pictures or up close and personal, it gets you in a different way. But I can certainly tell you all from first hand experience to see a human being whose head has been removed. For me it was always one of the most shocking and troubling and the reminder that I could just never wrap my head around how awful certain people can be to another human being. And but you know. Again, for us, we have a job to do and it goes back to the evidence and that's how they looked at this here. Body itself was not as decomposed as one would think, and I think it is. As a result of the container itself and the fact that it was sealed, it was protected by the elements, so you were able to still tell it was a female. There were at least 33 stab wounds on the chest area, the arms, the hands, and. Obviously massive trauma around the neck and it's the opinion of investigators and myself that there was potentially so many stab wounds. That that is what essentially decapitated this victim. You know, Scott, we also always look at this, obviously from what it tells us about the actual crime, the person who committed it, and even what the victim endured. How do you see this one here? The 33 stab wounds tells me a lot, and it's the one word we use very often in these homicide investigations and assiga, especially when it comes to using a knife or strangulation. It's personal 33 stab wounds to the point where the victims head is severed from their body. It's personal evil rage. It's an obvious overkill. There are so many stab wounds, so many unnecessary stab wounds. To commit this murder that this person is trying to do, you have to think comes from someone they that they know. You know, I wanna hit the pause button for a second on the investigation and just really look back as, you know, if this is Lisa suspense and and this is the woman that we've been describing and the woman that we've learned about through Detective Smith. What a horrible end. I mean, at horrible end for any human being. But we've met Lisa through the eyes of Detective Smith in this podcast and knowing who she is and knowing about her family back home and knowing why she came to Florida to end like this, if this is her. Is horrific. What a brutal and to literally be left in a shipping container. Stabbed multiple times without your head. And it is one of the cases that there's certain ones in my mind that I always think about that I will never be able to wrap my head around how brutal some people can be to one another. What they need to do now, with the help of the medical examiner and of course science, is can they identify these remains as Lisa Spence? We had to jump through many, many hoops to ultimately come to the identification. So anytime we don't have dental records, which in this case we did not, DNA is 9 times out of 10A, no brainer. However, the body inside that barrel was preserved from the elements. It was also closed from the elements which degraded the DNA. You know, every situation is different, and this is 2009, and efforts today would be different. But in 2009, the science may not have been to the point where even the minute amount of DNA extracted from a decomposing body would have been as good. We had to take extra steps. We had to attempt to get DNA from the femur of the body, long tissue from various spots on the body, in hopes that we could find something. That has not degraded to the point where we would be unable to get an identification. So as it turns out, the medical examiner's office was able to extract a sample of DNA from those remains, and they ran it through various databases. Unfortunately, there was nothing in CODIS knowing that Lisa had never been arrested for a specific crime that would enable us to have her DNA in CODIS. I wasn't surprised about that. So then, if we're now going to see if we can actually identify this person as Lisa Spence, now investigators need to go to Step 2. Now, when we searched the residence that's shared by Paul and Lisa, we found that there was not one item that belongs to Lisa there. Not a hair brush, not a toothbrush, not a shampoo bottle, absolutely nothing. So we were unable to find any potential match through there. So every way there, look, they're hitting additional roadblocks. And remember, this woman is a recent immigrant to this country, so her friends and family, the people that they might be able to get her belongings from, they're not here. But now let's go back to who it is that's investigating this case. Detective Smith, we already know that he's thought outside of the box in terms of moving this investigation forward, so he's not going to let something as simple as he can't ID easily stop him in his quest. So from there we had to start working with familial DNA and meet with Lisa's mom, son, daughter and father in Trinidad and obtained their DNA swabs. Mitochondrial DNA is inherited solely from the mother, and that means that the persons remains can be matched with a mother or a maternal grandmother, a sibling, a maternal aunt or uncle, or even with more distant relatives as long as they belong to the maternal line of inheritance. So if there's no reference DNA on file, better chances to get a reference sample directly from the family. Now remember, all of our agencies work for the government, so there is basically red tape involved in everything. First thing you have to do is go to your supervisor and say, so, Lieutenant, we're thinking about taking a trip to Trinidad and Tobago, and here's the reasons why we think we should go. The questions were, why do you have to go? Well, we have to get DNA swabs. Well, can you have somebody from the FBI go there and get it and then send it to you? So there's two things. One, how much safer and more secure and no chain of custody issues if he goes and gets it himself. But also if he goes there, remember that's where Lisa is from. And not only where she's from, but it's also where Paul Edwards is from, so he can go down there and do a bit more investigation while he's there. And ultimately, this is one of those things where we need to sit down with the family and we need to try to solve this thing. You have an opportunity to be face to face with a family member of a victim, and you have the opportunity to learn as much as you can and have them also understand where you are in the investigation, because just imagine how many questions they would have and they're not used to the system in the US. The criminal justice system in the US is different than anywhere else in the world. So having to explain the process to them, I think is the right thing to do, and I think it is the important thing. To do for the family, as we don't want to speak to suspect on the phone, we want to look in that suspect's eyes and see what's going on behind those eyes. I think it's the same with the family. The family wants to be able to look in my eyes and see if I'm sincere and see if genuine can see that yes, we are here, we are going to solve this. I think it was an easy decision for the Lieutenant to approve the trip for Detective Smith and his partner. This was my first and last time I I'd ever gone outside the country for any case. We got there and were treated like royalty by the authority over there in Trinidad. They got us a driver. They supplied us with a cell phone so we could communicate with whoever we had to communicate there in Trinidad. Unfortunately, their computer system isn't as advanced as some of the computer systems that we have here in the states, so a lot of it was just rifling through papers and they gave us carte blanche. It was going to see this thing through and wanted to be involved and be in charge, hopefully for the betterment of the case. I remember meeting with the family and house that the family lived at was much different than what I'm used to or any of us are used to here. It was a smaller home. There's no air conditioning down there and it's very, very hot, but all of the homes have flats in them to allow all the breeze to come through, so that's basically their air conditioning. And they had. I couldn't even tell you how many people that lived in that house. Can you imagine this scene? The detective is in a foreign country. He's in a house full of people. What's racing through his mind and then what's racing through the family's mind? They not only had friends, but they had extended family. There was a house full of people and I've always found it the right thing to do, to be as upfront and honest as I possibly can. Has to tell him what? He thinks that Lisa is dead, but can't be sure for the family. I can only imagine they must be wondering. Wait, what? How can you not be sure they would have so many questions and emotions? The family had to sit there and listen to me give them essentially the worst news that one can ever give anyone. I did tell them this is what I think. This is where I think we are in the investigation and unfortunately I do believe that the body that we found is Lisa's fence. The family was so gracious and appreciative of the work that was done and the fact that. We didn't hide anything from them. This investigators making the effort to come from Florida into their country to talk to them and show how much he wanted to help find Lisa. I think it was a two way St they're saying we know this is terrible for you too. Thank you for everything you've done. Really, really phenomenal family. And whether it's going to be her and not in that barrel, it just seems to me that they must be the type of people that really appreciated the extent that he was going to to work on their behalf. I had to then get their DNA and I was able to get one additional piece of information. When the body was recovered, we were able to locate some toe rings, and those toe rings were photographed, and I took those photographs with me to Trinidad. That's never a good thing to have, to show property of a loved one to someone, I was able to show those toe rings. To Surline, her daughter, who she's really close with, Sylene said. Yep, those are my moms. Those are my mom's toe rings. I know I just saw them when I saw her last. And while the DNA sample is not even been transported back to the states for examination, you have a first-hand acknowledgement on items found on the remains in that barrel. We can never use that as the official identification, but it's not like you're talking about a singular gold band on someone's finger. I mean, this is a toe ring, and it's pretty specific. So yeah, I think they all know in their heart of hearts that this was going to be her. And when they got back, as I'm sure all of you out there have already guessed, those DNA results came back as a match. Through DNA evidence, detectives were able to confirm the decapitated body in the barrel was least suspense. But on top of that, remember they had that drop of blood that they found in their rental car and that came back to Lisa Spense. It's a rental car. How else could it have gotten there if not by someone who rented it, which links it right back to Paul Edwards? So while Detective Smith and his partner were in Trinidad and Tobago in Lisa's home country, they wanted to dig into Edward's past and they knew exactly where to go and the information was important. We contacted British Constables that work in Trinidad and Tobago to ask if they had any in-house documents or information and they were able to tell us that he has active warrants in Trinidad and one of the warrants was for something called malicious wounding. It's not a term that we use in the US, but what's your take on malicious wounding? It's basically an intentional assault. Even here in the United States we call different felonies, different things depending on where the case is being prosecuted. But just think about what that actually means. Malicious, which talks about the way it was done, equating intentional and the wounding is the result of the assault. So really, that's what it is. It's a felony intentional assault. It was explained to me that it was a situation where he stabbed a girlfriend multiple times. Here's a guy who was stabbed before and not only stabbed, but. Stabbed, romantic partner. So unfortunately, we're starting to go down that domestic violence Rd as far as he's concerned with his history. So Detective Smith felt like he needed a little bit more to connect not only to the remains in that shipping barrel, but could anybody else identify that shipping barrel itself? Now Paul kept his thumb on Lisa, really watched who she hung out with dictated who can come over and who can't. Well, Lisa had a friend who was one of the few people that were allowed inside that house. She was one of the few people allowed inside their house. Just think about that for a second. You're not even allowed to have your friends over. Your family already isn't with you because you have picked up to leave your country to be with this person, and now he won't even allow you to have friends or anyone else inside your own home. When I'm thinking about this, I think about how lonely Lisa Spence must have felt. But when we moved now to what they were able to get from her friend, how very fortunate that she was the one who was allowed inside. Investigators were able to show her a picture, essentially of not the actual barrel, but one that is identical to it, and was able to tell us, yes, I've been in that house maybe a month or two before Lisa went missing. I remember seeing a 55 gallon drum that looks exactly like that inside their house. Now, that isn't going to get you anywhere by itself. And yes, they are used commonly to ship back and forth. However, she saw when that looked identical inside the house. And guess what? When the investigators went in and looked for Lisa's toothbrush or something to try to get some DNA, they didn't see any such barrel. That makes it even more interesting to me right now. There's no doubt in my mind Paul did this. He's guilty. I want to go after him. So this investigative. Older anasia is getting very thick. They're really connecting the dots. The timeline is fat. What's your take? Is this a case that you'd file right there? Then I say I'm going to court. There were two phones basically mirroring one another. Basically, wherever he went, her phone is 2, and now there's no trace of it at all. The analysis of the phones was huge and I have to give credit to my partner for being able to do that because my ability with technology like that is not where I guess it should be. So when you look at all of the evidence, I think now you have enough to prosecute. At that point, it was the middle of April 2010, and I was able to take all these little things, all these circumstantial things, all this physical evidence and put it together and get probable cause for an arrest. I grabbed the guys in my unit that had worked so hard on this case and we walked right up to the door, knocked on the door. He said. You're under arrest. And I have to say, it was a wonderful feeling. Almost as good as calling Lisa's family and saying he's arrested. He's in jail. This story isn't done yet because Edwards is still adamant of his innocence, and he tells police that he didn't kill Lisa, but he says he knows who did. Edwards, through his legal team, said the person that actually killed Lee suspense was her new boyfriend. They, meaning the defense team, put it on the boyfriend. Now, all of you may be saying, wait, we haven't heard anything about our new boyfriend and you haven't because really, it wasn't even relevant in the picture up until then. Now remember, Edwards and Lisa Spence, according to friends and family, had really been on the outs and their relationship had been deteriorating for some time. And while she was still physically with him and living inside the house, she had wanted to move on for some time, but he just wasn't letting her go. So she had begun a new relationship with a new boyfriend, and that really wasn't a surprise to anyone. And from the beginning. Edwards, whenever asked the few things he did say, he said it's not me, it's this other guy. I was able to alibi her very new boyfriend, but the defense was if anyone did it, it was the new boyfriend. Paul had nothing to do with this. Detective Danny Smith interviewed him early on in the investigation, and when his alibi checked out, they moved on, but they knew it would likely come up again. Just think about that for a second. So forgetting all those other pieces of evidence that we talked about, right? So you have the boyfriend that you know that she's trying to leave, who we know is controlling, who we know doesn't want her around anyone but him. And then you have the new guy in her life, the one who she wants to be with. You tell me right there, who is the more likely candidate for murder? And then you start to look at the other dots and they're all leading back to one. And that's not the new boyfriend, it's Edwards. We hear something or see something and go, oh, that doesn't make sense, or that's suspicious and we need to dig more into that. So a red flag to me is literally using common sense and saying that doesn't seem right. There's no such thing as a done deal. And because investigators know it doesn't mean that the jury is necessarily going to get it. Remember, you just need one person who thinks that that might be a reasonable possibility that hasn't been disproven, and then that's it. It's game over. You don't get that conviction. And I think that you need to realize that what actually makes it into the courtroom sometimes goes against what we know as far as the big picture outside. But look what the defense team was working with. What else did they have? We have no fingerprints at the crime scene. We've got nobody placing him with the barrel at the crime scene. We have blood evidence, but it's not blood evidence on the defendant. So there was still a very good, but still a very circumstantial case. I'm sure the legal team for Edwards was thinking, you know, we need to find a way to show them that our client is innocent. And what else would they have you all might be thinking about? Well, we know he's done this before because we know that he stabbed another girlfriend. An ex-girlfriend. But guess what? That can't come into the courtroom. This is a situation where we were unable to use his prior bad acts. We were unable to tell the jury that he stabbed his girlfriend, that he was abusive to his wife, his estranged wife, that he was abusive to Lisa. So all these things that we were able to uncover unfortunately were not admissible in court. Even as a prosecutor, to say that there's a pretty good reason for that is that you can't be convicted based on things you have done in the past that, yes, even if you have done something very similar, you need to be convicted for that crime based on the evidence they bring into the courtroom. Now, sometimes we're allowed to bring it in under certain exceptions, you know, modus operandi. If there's something so specific about it that we say that it actually goes to prove identity, but just prior bad acts that are pretty general, you're not allowed to bring in because then the jury might right away say, well, oh, he's done it before. He's done it there, and that's just not what our justice system allows beyond a reasonable doubt. And at certain points, you're right, the defendant does not have to put on a defense. The state has the burden of proof. I don't disagree with that at all. This appeared to be a distraction. It's trying to throw doubt in the state's case. Circumstantial. The prosecution luckily had some very solid evidence to counter all the limitations. The best piece of evidence, I'm going to say it was a tie. I'm going to say the cell phone records coupled with that one spot of blood that came back to Lisa Spence that was on the rental car that we were able to pull. So at the end of the trial, the jury rendered their verdict. The jury was out for around 3 hours, if not less. It was a very quick verdict. Paul Edwards, guilty of the murder of Lisa Spence. Sentenced to life in prison. There was jubilance on the part of the family. They were. Some were speechless and some were outwardly pumping their fists and there was a lot of emotion. A lot of emotion I definitely will never forget. After that verdict was read, the relief of the family, it was almost as if a two ton boulder was taken off their shoulders. So seeing how this investigation unfolded and all the work that was put in by both sides, prosecution and law enforcement and assiga, tell me what the feeling is in your cases when you were in the courtroom getting to the end and the finish line and bringing justice. There's no other feeling like it, you know, and everyone reacts differently. For me, it was always mainly relief because, again, there's no good outcome here, right? You know, Lisa Spence is never coming back and Paul Edwards is spending the rest of his life in jail and deservedly so. Right? But there's nothing joyous about that for anyone. But it's incredible relief because her family has gotten answers. You think about all the investigators that put so much of their energy and time in and every person that. Was looking for answers, and it's just this relief that all that effort paid off. It was emotional. I had a flashback and the entire case and everything that was done and all the people that helped. Basically flashed in front of my eyes and I thought about the dogs and the US Marshals and the airplane and and everyone, all the detectives helping out and really working toward a common goal. Doing this work, that is the reason that you do it, wrapping up a case that you have put so much energy and time into, when you get that final answer, it's just incredible relief. So it made me feel proud. More than anything. I heard the verdict. It felt good, that's for sure. In thinking about this case, something that Detective Smith said, you know, really resonates. He says it so often, you know, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. But for him in this case, it was like looking for a needle in a stack of needles. And the fact that he was able to pull the right needle out while. I think about Lisa Spence. Lisa left the only home that she knew, left her children behind, hoping to build a future in a new country with a man that she thought she knew. A dream shattered in the most violent way possible at the hands of a man who took her life and discarded her like garbage. She was this woman in many ways in this country, all alone. And while she didn't have her family, fortunately for her, she ultimately had detective Smith. TuneIn next Wednesday, when we'll dissect another new case on anatomy of murder. Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck original, A Weinberger media and forseti media production summit. David is executive producer.