A murder case has many layers: the victim, the crime, and the investigation. To truly understand it, you need to dissect each piece of a tragic puzzle. Join Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger every Tuesday for an insider’s perspective, as they reveal to you the Anatomy of Murder.
Tue, 23 May 2023 07:00
A body is found inside an apartment and an ID of the killer is quickly made. But police soon realize that the case will be tougher to crack than they thought.
You see the worst of the worst every day. That one went up to 8-2415. Yes, yes, I got this door in my house. If you're a victim of a homicide, you have a family. Does that family deserve some kind of anxious what happened to you? I don't know what's wrong with it. People can't be allowed to commit crimes like that and go unanswered. She's acting all crazy, me. And I want her out of my house. Hello? Hello? I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff. I'm Anna Sige-Nikolazi, former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of investigation discoveries through conviction. And this is Anatomy of Murder. Here in AOM we've had the opportunity to highlight all types of cases from big cities to small towns and victims from all types of backgrounds and socio-economic status. For us in our former careers and even our work here, every case matters. Doesn't matter who the victim is, everyone deserves justice. Every victim should be remembered. And for today's story, we spoke with former homicide detective Chris Scandal. And I worked with Chris in Brooklyn for years. I knew him both when he was a detective in a precinct. And he came out of one of the busiest areas in Brooklyn, but also as a homicide detective. You know, and I was speaking to him for this case, it reminded me that you don't know so much about the backgrounds, but those people that you work with. And that was certainly true of Chris. You know, he is a meticulous detective. I first thought he was like one of those old school guys, but I learned very quickly that I was wrong and he has the making of everything from past to present as part of his DNA. But also within his DNA, I found out while talking to him for this podcast, is that being in law enforcement is something that actually runs in his blood. I think the people in my family who were cops, I looked up to, and I thought that was something that I should have given shot. It's funny story. My uncle worked in a 7-9. I'm going to work in a 7-3. He knows to me that I would end up in Brooklyn North as well. This case begins in the confines of the 8-3 precinct in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn. The call was for a DOA, which is short, for Dead Unarrival. The landlord had just been stuffing his guy's mail under the door. So that couple weeks ago, I put some mail under the door, and at one point, no one had seen this guy for at least two or three weeks, and it turned out to be longer than that that they'd seen him for. So when the officer went into this apartment, which was really just basically one room, he saw that there was someone who was to see, and clearly had been there for a while based on decomposition. But again, they don't know walking in whether that is someone who was died by natural causes or something more suspect. And because of the state of the body, it was hard for him to really figure out what was what initially. But there was something around the body that made him call in for other detectives. All unexplained deaths are investigated to determine whether a crime is taken place or perhaps it is a natural death. But that would not be the case here, as officers had located an excess amount of blood out the scene. It's really just a one room, it's not even really a bomb, it's a one room with a bathroom in the corner. There's a mattress on the floor that's his sleeping arrangements. Deceased in the Brooklyn apartment was 50-year-old Anthony Wilson. These are on the mattress decomposed and bloated. Based on the condition of the body, investigators would determine that it had been there for quite some time. And that's when the bloating and decomposition take over. You can see that with some kind of trauma to them, but you couldn't really determine the extent of the injuries that the scene. So when officers on scene went into the bathroom in this small little apartment, they did notice that there was blood inside the bathroom, even in the sink. The blood also appears that it's been tried to eat the mop or wiped up in the towel. It appears to much like to clean up some of the blood. And so Scott, just thinking about that for a second, people can die naturally and there can be blood involved. But then if someone's there like you're talking about and they went into potentially clean up, well, then you would have suspected if natural that that person would have called the police. So the fact that they didn't must have made them march down that road before they even knew the injuries that this might be something suspicious indeed. Determining the cause of death would be a big step in this investigation. And they're going to determine whether this is, as you said, at a C. Goethers natural or whether this is actually in fact a homicide. So it isn't just going to go for autopsy once the body's removed. In a case like this, they're actually going to bring an M.L.I. or a medical legal investigator onto the scene to see what they can help determine before the body is ever moved. We call up the medical legal investigator down from the medical examiners office so they can do their investigation and they can help determine what would happen at the scene as well. And I know that it turns out the medical examiner who was assigned to this case was someone that you also know quite well. So the medical examiner who performed the autopsy in this case was Dr. Freddie Fredericks. And one of the perks of speaking to someone that you know and have worked with is that we get to walk down memory lane of it and reminisce. And both of us started to kind of giggle when we talked about Dr. Fredericks first. We both have so much respect for her. She was a wonderful medical examiner who I worked with over and over again throughout the years. But there's just something about her. It's not the fact that she's from Haiti and she has this accent. But there's almost like this sing-songiness in her voice that whenever any of us came into contact with her she always could make you giggle and smile and remember the lighter side of life at the same time. She was just a joy. You're dealing with death, you're dealing with what types of places that no one is happy to be but it's a very important place to be. The autopsy is very extremely important so you would go there and you would leave this smile without Dr. Fredericks not because of what you had to do with what was jar-related. Whenever you have a stabbing, well that is an up-close, more personal attack. Whether they know each other or not, you know, a gunshot can be from a distance. A knife stabbing has to be up-close. So here when they determined it was a stabbing and there were ten stab wounds. You know, Scott, right away this is something that someone had one objective on their mind. As you mentioned the fact that their inches away from each other, that has to say something. In most cases, actually your victim and your suspect are looking at each other. If the stab wounds are in fact, or to the front part of the body. So it feels personal and I'm sure at that very moment when you're thinking about a knife being the weapon, it really shows that rage is involved. Ten times indicates to me a level of violence that's indicating that this isn't just a random act. DNA in this case is an important step, but perhaps not for the reason you may be thinking. And here's why. In stabbing cases it's common for the knife to slip in the killer's hand while multiple wounds are involved. And obviously there's blood involved. Also because the attacker could be cut in the process. So the hope for investigators here is it's possible that some of the blood that's in the apartment either is a mixture of your victim and your suspect or just the victim, but perhaps just the suspect. So that really can give you a single profile of that potential killer. They did a bunch of swabs, DNA blood is suffer covered. So those hope with that because the DNA evidence at that point and it's getting better and better always. But that's a pretty solid lead and that was what we were hoping for. But nothing is quick about DNA today nor was it at the time. It often takes not just days but weeks or months even to return results. So while he's waiting to see if any conclusions could be reached that would push this investigation forward, detective scandal would arm with his investigation. Obviously seeing if there was anything around the area that could aid him. Any witnesses, any people outside. Detective scandal also goes to phone records and the phone records in particular he's looking to see if there had been any emergency calls placed from this address in the months before the body is found. I got the phone records I see this and I won't go and so now I take the next step. I actually pull the records of the normal one calls. He actually speaks to the 911 operator. 911 operator 2415. Yes, yes. I got this girl in my house. I don't know if she's drunk with her. She's acting all crazy and I want to out of my house. He says something like she's trying to kill me until the 911 operator. Hello. Hello. The call is terminated. The call just goes silent. Like what was happening? Why did the call just end when it did? We do know this entire case began with a 911 call to a Brooklyn dispatcher. Investigators were trying to determine why a patrol car was never dispatched. And if so, the question is why and could that have made a difference in this homicide? Every call to 911 generates a response. Whether it's a hang up, whether it's known on the end of the line, an open line, it generates a response. For some reason, our victim called the 911 and it fell through a crack. There was no 911 response. There was no spring job generated. There was no response generated when he called 911. And that is one of those things that you really don't hear about. I was trying to think if I'd ever heard of that before because it automatically goes from the dispatch and then it goes out through the sprint and it's like this teletype almost if your picture is going out at the same time. So the fact that this call was able to fall through the cracks and was never transmitted and that no one ever showed up, well it is just such an unfortunate circumstance. Now I have actually heard of that before, Annasiga, but it is so extremely rare. In fact, the way the system is set up that if even someone dials 911 and doesn't say anything at all and just hangs up, that will still bring a uniform response to the location and that's in every city and jurisdiction in the United States. It's a fail safe approach for the system. The thought is that if perhaps the person calling for help can't say in front of the person because they're fearing at the moment in examples domestic violence, police are mandated to respond to every 911 call, no matter what. Often people are calling because they have an emergency which isn't even a crime. They're having some sort of medical emergency, but now all of a sudden something happens and they lose consciousness. Well, this is one of the reasons that ambulance can still get there in time. So the fact that it broke down to this degree here and that what is found when they do go there a month later is just the body. Rather than the person, the alive person of Anthony Wilson, you just don't know if it would have made a difference, but you really does start to make you wonder about the exact timing of when he was stabbed in relation to that call. So here's what we know so far. The caller is likely the victim and based on what he said, the killer, maybe the person he's referring to and the description is a woman. Next, investigators will want to do a canvas of the building to begin constructing their timeline. When was the last time someone saw the victim based on the condition of the body? Clearly it's been in the apartment for quite some time and next could somebody in the building identify any females they may have seen hanging around the victim's apartment. Well, we had a couple of witnesses, no one who actually saw anything, but a couple of witnesses that had told us about the victim Anthony, he would let women stay with him and they would get hiding other and he would let them stay with him either for money and or for sex. You can already start to see here where certainly Anthony Wilson was having a difficult time and that within that drug-fueled world that they were living with, you know, there weren't always the things that people wanted to talk about but it really was what it was, whether it was people were staying there and giving him money or maybe it was a trade for narcotics and maybe even something physical, we don't know, but it certainly was the underbelly, the things that people don't often talk about but may play into being very relevant here. No one was even looking for nobody knew he was gone but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve that effort but you know what, what we were told and I used to preach it to the other detectives. There are no nonsense cases, every case you catch you should be practiced for that day you work in a case where the cop gets shot or killed. You have to put that effort in, these cases that you have to work, you have to work them just as hard and just as tenacious and just as tireless as you do with the other cases and you'll be able to do it. And in this case kind of jumped out to me because this is a case that nobody cared about but it didn't deserve any less effort. As police are doing their door-to-door search in the victims building they're asking about information about anything or anyone the neighbors may have noticed in and around the victim's apartment but clearly the focus has turned to a woman, likely the killer the victim was referring to on that 911 call. We got a name of a woman from two different people, we got the name Renee from somebody. We got a statement from a female when I said, told us that this Renee was staying with them. So while it's probably clear, this is obviously a pretty big lead. Who is she? We know that Anthony had struggled with substance use of narcotics for many years and that many people that circled in his world that stayed with him. They were there because they shared the narcotics in common. We'll right away that might make her more difficult to locate whether she has something to do with this at all. But right now she is person of interest number one because she is the first person, the first woman that they are connecting to the inside of Anthony's home. Okay, so I really like Renee, meaning in police terms, she's a real person of interest for me. The fact that she has his phone is a big step in the right direction for the investigation and by the way, I'm going to drop my big red flag right by her name. I mean, then we had another male who had known Renee and was actually trying to get together with Renee, but he ended up receiving a phone call from Renee on the victim's cell phone. So he gets a phone call that she's got to come and chill. I got something happen. I got, I need someone to chill with, I need somewhere to go. He claims he told me I had to poke him that I had to stab him. I poke him, he'd stab him. So I find this really interesting, right? Now this is our witness relaying a conversation he allegedly had with Renee repeating it back to detectives and while perhaps something may have been lost in translation, which you know happens. This seems pretty clear. This is someone who admits to being with your victim at admitting that he was stabbed and that is not public knowledge. Pretty important, I think. And that she said she did it, at least according to this witness. So at the moment, pieces are starting to click together and they need to find this Renee. But based on several factors, that may not be easy. First, all they have to go on right now is her first name. And next, it appears she's not someone with a permanent address or a job or not an easy trail to follow. And if she is someone who is also a long time abuser, which again, they were getting that from the witness that she was and she didn't have this permanent address, she's someone that may not be easy to find. We did some computer checks and background investigations that had checks with police computer systems and we found a woman by the name of Renee who had taken some arrests in that area. And based on that computer check, they were able to pull a photograph, which would give them an opportunity to place that photo in a photo lineup, also called a photo array, to see if any witnesses will pick her out. We show a photo array. It's six randomized photos that are similar in nature. I said, do you recognize anyone who's supposed to pick that one of the photos as Renee? So now they have an identification, but is that going to be enough to make an arrest? Well, is it identification of what? It's by one person who says that there was a woman who came and said that she used the word Pope, but again, they don't know enough yet. Can they figure out where this woman even was? Like, is it that the witness has an act to grind? Is he being accurate? Is he mistaken? Does it even have the days right when this happens? So there definitely is going to be more digging that investigators need to do. It took a little bit because she had removed this self from Brooklyn, if I'm to neighborhood. Perhaps the most difficult person to find is someone who is living a transient lifestyle, staying in one place one night and then staying somewhere the next, or even potentially living in a homeless shelter. But that doesn't deter Brooklyn detectives not only to look for Renee, but for others who may know her. But it really came down to computers, the same computer that had somehow made a mistake and somehow not transmitted the Anthony Wilson 911 call to the place it needed to go to the police. Well, it's that same computer system that now through different checks that Detective Scandal did gave him the information that he was able to find the woman picked out in that photo array, Renee. We found our shoes actually living in New Jersey working in Manhattan, which I mean is the next borough all over but might as well be the next world over in the world of these cases at Manhattan. When you're talking about an island so small with so many people there every single day, I wanted to get a sense of how many people are actually in Manhattan on a given day. And the answer is 4 million people. What that comes down to is the daytime population is about 4 million, which is about 1.6 million of commuting workers, 1.4 million local residents, 400,000 out of town visitors, and 17,000 hospital patients, and 70,000 people who are students commuting in every single day. So having said all that, it really takes a tremendous amount of detective skills to track, locate, and get your eyes on a target in a small island full of so many people. But here that they have this woman, they have found her in that sea of people and in those incredible numbers. And when they started to look at her, well, OK, Bingo, she did have a pass when it came to narcotics. So that's going to check off that box that is going to be at least in the circles that they know would have been with Anthony Wilson. Well, she had had some drug arrests in that same area and without knowing anything else, put us in. All right, it could be its possibility. So now they had to start looking at, was there anything else about her that would check off any of the other boxes to at least put her in the pool of who may have done this to him? She was what I would say was not a person from the street. She was actually a regular working person taking care of herself, not under influence at work. And the kicker is that I think she was eight months pregnant when we talked to her. Renee could not have been more cooperative and was willing to answer any question they put to her. It certainly wasn't what detectives expected. I couldn't believe like how super cooperative she was. Yeah, take my phone, go through my phone records, help everything. So the question could be, is it possible this is the very same person, someone capable of stabbing our victim ten times? She doesn't really fit the box, right, of the least who would be hanging around Anthony Wilson and living with him at the time. However, she still is the lead suspect because of one important fact, she is the person who was picked out in the photo array. She had the rock solid, you know, I was here as a worker people voucher, so we ruled her out. She has this rock solid alibi. So what do you do now? You know, that eyewitness who picked her out, that's an important factor. Now does that witness have credibility issues or is that witness simply mistaken? Is that witness part of this world? Was he high at the time? Was he drunk of time? It could create problems for prosecuting his case down the road. This person is mistaken or whether they had purposely picked out the wrong person, they have made an identification of someone who through investigation was determined clearly not to be the person who stabbed Anthony Wilson to death. So what happens down the road? You know, let's just assume they're mistaken. Now let's say they find someone and they conduct another identification procedure. And we'll just think about what the defense attorney is going to do with that in court. It's like, well, on one hand it's A and on the other it's B, is that proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't mean this person is not going to be helpful. They may well be an important witness depending on the circumstances, but it's definitely going to be something that has to be dealt with and will be problematic, at least in theory, in this case. Without any way to advance the case at this very moment, there wasn't much for detectives to do except to continue to work on any information that may have come in. But just when Chris and his colleagues think that hope is lost, they find a clue. They receive records that suggest that Anthony's benefit card was being used around town after his death. That is an eBT card that you get from the government. It is financial assistance that people receive for different types of disabilities. And so the beauty of that card is that there's only certain places that they can be used. And so the hope is that if they can track down exactly where Anthony Wilson's card was being used after he was dead, whether just might be some cameras or some information that they can obtain as to who it was that was using his card. We saw the area where they were used. We went to those locations by the time we got those records. There was no more video or no more cameras. Again, in 2012, the video was not as pervelled as it is today. It was past the time frame of whatever they would have saved the video. So what they end up with and no pun intended, but is another dead end. And you know, this is work that is filled with them. And they think that they're getting ahead or they are getting ahead and all of a sudden they're pushed back and that really starts to weigh on them. Well, at that point, it's kind of a standstill. A lot of administrative function out is not a lot of investigative work at that point. A lot of trying to collect evidence waiting on the currency reports, to come back, waiting on the lab work, to come back, things of that nature. And the one report that they are most curious about is the DNA test. Remember, a fair amount of DNA was collected from Anthony Wilson's apartment when his body was discovered. Well, on March 20th, almost three months after the victim's body was discovered, the results were in and detectives get a match. So the results come in and the name that pops up as a match is a name that no one had heard of yet. It's actually tied to a female man, Natara Wisdom. So let's remember how we got here. You have a witness who said he spoke to a woman named Verne, who admitted to having stabbed Anthony. So police then identified Verne. They put a photograph of that person in a photo array. She's identified. Then they go to speak to that person. Nope, that's not her. They end up with someone that has a clear alibi. It was not involved in this homicide. So now they get a DNA hit and it is of a person, a woman, but her name is not Renée. So who is Attara Wisdom? It starts when we run our criminal issue and her photo comes back and you look at the photo of Attara Wisdom next to the photo of Renée and they could be sisters. Based on what we investigated, it doesn't look like they're related. They look strikingly alike. Attara Wisdom was not someone that was ever on their radar at all. But this also shows the Achilles heel in a sense to witness ID. Somebody could be so positive about an ID with all the right and good intentions, but be completely wrong. I mean, that is an incredible coincidence that when you put photographs of these two women side by side that they look so similar that they could actually be related. Even though they obviously have not much in common and definitely not the same name, but it is a coincidence like this that can really turn an investigation on its head. We do our due diligence all our background and everything. It would appear that she's got a criminal history. And now we say we need to speak to her. We need to find her and see what she has to say. We take a look. She's someone who's a war along the light of that street life than Renée. So she was more difficult to find more difficult to locate. Back out of the hunt for the alleged killer, a hunt facing some of the same issues as earlier. Somebody who is transient, somebody who doesn't have any ties to a specific location within New York City. The place we finally located her was in a homeless shelter. And that presents issues as far as identifying and finding someone in and of itself because there are protections in place that are there to keep the occupants safe. To be in a shelter, you have to actually register and go to the system so that there's a way you can check to see if someone is actually a resident of that shelter. But then when you go there, they have to be there. They have to agree to talk to you. They have to all they are. They're not there. People end up without homes, you know, undomicide for various reasons. It could be there down on their luck. It could be financial considerations. It could be problems in the home like domestic violence that people are fearing for their safety. And they decide it is better to go into one of these shelters than to keep themselves at risk where they are. So the cities or the places that these shelters are in, they are cognizant of those things. So it is not so easy necessarily to find someone to locate and speak with them once they're inside. You go to the shelter and you can see there are people who this is the temporary stop and through no fold of their own or they're trying to better there at this situation. She's not wearing these people. She's people who was like, this was a place to holiday her head because she probably ran out and I don't know where ever she was. Once the detectives located a tarrow wisdom at the shelter, they wanted to sit down with her and ask her what she knew about the death of Anthony Wilson. But they didn't want to do it there. We just told her it was an investigation. We didn't get into any of the details of it that we need to speak to her at the precinct and not here in front of old people to shelter. I mean, there's obvious reasons why detectives want to bring her back to the precinctation us to do the interview. They want to control the environment. They also don't want other people at the shelter knowing that she's talking to police, which could warn other witnesses in this very case that she's now been located and potentially cooperating. She told us that she had lost the place. She moved in with Anthony. She met him at the doctors of some Broadway. I think it's one of these pain management places where they go and they get illegal drugs, as opposed to not using the crack. She met him over there. He let us stay with her. So what is the tactic going to be when they sit down with her? They have her DNA, which puts her inside of the apartment, but not so fast because the one thing they already know from her is that she was staying with him. So you would expect some of her DNA to be there. So Scott, you know, you need to think about what detectives are going to do now armed with that information as they proceed to try and speak with her. I would hold back the fact that a DNA sample not only was collected, but as a match to her, because I would want her to lay out the entire story, A to Z, what happened in that apartment with Anthony Wilson, and see if my DNA evidence, where it was collected, backs up her story with science. But it didn't become much of a tug of war, at least says to that. She tells the detectives that the agreement that she had with Anthony Wilson was having a place to stay so they can both get high. That was the deal. They had no intimate relationship, but she claimed when the victim got high, he became a completely different person. She would wake up and find him, touching her lane over her, touching her on her shirt and stuff, and she would tell me, that's not why he is not like that. She came right out and admitted that it was her, that she had stabbed him, but her claim to detectives is that it wasn't what they thought. So they got to an algorithm that got really heated and loud. She said she left, but then she went back a couple of times. So she went back to get her clothes and stuff. She said, I have an interview to say, I'm going to go back, I'm going to click my clothes. So she goes there, it's all good. She's there to click the clothes, we met him, it's all nice. But again, she stays there. She doesn't go get her stuff on the beach. She stays there. So later that night, though, they sit in on the couch, she's together and getting some stuff. She then claims that Anthony Wilson made a sexual advance on her. And she tells him, okay, then I'll get out of here. He sends a front of the door, it says, uh-uh. He picks up his belt, wraps his belt around his hand. She knew then this is going to get violent. So she picked up that, I could put it in her sweater. The confrontation escalated even more and then he starts punching her. She gets up to leave, he punches her in her face. He pulls her sweater over her head as he's punching her, he's pushing her head to the ground. And she's thinking to herself, wow, this keeps continuing. He's going to kill me. So that's what she says. She took her at the night and she stabbed them. She didn't say how many times she said I kept stabbing at him. She ran to the back and she all messed up. She got bruises and knots on her head. Now, first of all, we're talking about a slippery slope, right? I mean, I can tell all of you that the second I heard, I was like, uh-oh, wait a second. She's saying that there is an element of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault. Like, wait, who am I looking at as what here? And it's a topic that we hopefully are all very sensitive to. But the problem with her story is that it can't be corroborative. Remember, there are different things that go against what she said. And you have this witness who says that he was with the woman who said she had stabbed him just hours afterwards. But based on that and the injuries that she said she had, well, the witness said he didn't see any. She didn't point out any to him. So there's various things that detectives have in their pocket that are already making some of her claims suspect. So I'm going to step on one side here and ask the questions about this self-defense claim, especially with the amount of stab wounds here. You know, and I see a 10. How to justify that. Plus, the fact that she never attempted to help him after he was fatally stabbed, call an ambulance. Instead, she left him the die. She gathered his things, including his cell phone, by the way, left his body in a place it would not be discovered for months. I'm already giving pause to what she's saying because there are things in my mind that are going against this being any self-defense at all by anyone's standards. But even under the law, you are allowed to defend yourself or another person to like violence. Basically, if you think someone is about to kill you, you can defend yourself with like four. So here, let's say she even felt the need to stab him. Well, okay, once. Does that stop him twice? Does that stop him? How about three times? While we might know the exact number, I can tell you that it is well below the 10 wounds she inflicted on him. So right there, the defense basically is out the window. But then when you start to peel that onion back again, there's going to be more layers that really put what she's saying into question other than the fact. Other than the fact that she is the person who caused the wounds that killed Anthony Wilson. Keep in mind, she's had from November until July to tell somebody what happened to get in front of the stadium. Even if she was high and I got sober with her treatment a couple months later, she could have said, listen, this is what happened and this guy tried to kill me, I had to stay with him. She never did that. And there's another really big problem for her, isn't there? The 911 call. I don't know what you're doing with her. She's acting all crazy. And I wonder how to buy a house. She's been at all that he's attacking her and he's the one calling 911. He's the one calling for help. He's the one saying that she's trying to kill me. One saying, I need help here. This guy is attacking me. That is to me, the be all end of it all. You don't call the police and ask them to come help you if you are looking to attack someone else yet. That is exactly what Anthony Wilson did. And as he's placing that call, the line went dead. Hello. I think we're all thinking the fact that this is likely an extremely weak self-defense case. It has all the elements for an intentional homicide. And we don't know exactly what happened in the moments leading up to the murder, but stabbing someone so many times, attempting to clean up the scene, stealing the property, and leaving doesn't sound like self-defense to me at all. But you know, it is that slippery slope because what she's saying, I mean, look, it puts all of us on guard. I certainly felt like, wait a second, was he trying to sexually assault her? But again, it doesn't add up every other piece goes against it and as Scott, you just pointed out, the 911 call at least to me is the final layer that makes me convinced. This is not a case of self-defense. So we do know that this case will be tried in Brooklyn, which is ruled stomping grounds on Asiga, going into court in probably one of the very courtrooms that you've tried cases before. How would you feel walking in in a case against Attara Wisdom? I'd be comfortable walking into the courtroom based on the evidence and what it said to me and that have been put together well. But not without hesitation, and the hesitation isn't my comfort in what she was responsible for, but it's what the jury would do with her claims, right? You're in a very sensitive area that the defense is going to be sexual assault and are they going to really look deeper than her claims or just kind of put their hands up and saying woman against man and she's saying he was trying to hurt her, control her sexually assault her, well, game over. I'm not really going to think much more than that. So there's definitely a hurdle here to climb. But the jury in this case, they clearly analyze, they went through it and they did come to their conclusion and swiftly. The jury found Attara Wisdom guilty of second degree murder. Fair verdicts? I think so. Again, it really comes down to common sense coupled with all the pieces, you know, if it walks like a duck, if it talks like a duck, you know the saying. It really pars itself out here. One, I don't believe what she was saying at the time that the attack happened. I can't talk about what happened in their relationship before. And obviously if she had been victimized at all, well, I have empathy for that. But there's nothing telling me that's what happened that night. But yes, I do think this equals murder without any legal justification. I can. Today's case really makes me think of personal struggles on so many levels. Anthony Wilson, you know what led his life to go down that drug fueled path. And the same thing even for Attara Wisdom, you know, was it the drugs that fueled her anger or something deeper raging inside. And how can we start to spot signs of all these troubles before it is too late so we don't lose the Anthony Wilson's of the world and others to homicide. You know, what are signs that can stop killers before they commit these heinous acts. And on the other side, how can we also watch for the warning signs of the internal struggles that are impacting law enforcement be it the detectives, the uniform officers, the prosecutors that are working in the police. That are working in this dark world for all of their careers. You see the worst of the worst every day and not only the worst of the worst people call you when they're at their worst. You see it every day, you deal with it from every step from whether it's your own patrol to your homicide detective. People committing crimes that they would never have committed. People, you lady, people victims of things that are not the natural or you see more than people deserve to see in a lifetime. It takes toll on them and they're not always the best at reaching out for help or even seeing the warning side themselves. And how can we help them overcome the struggles of the dark worlds their professions take them to every single day. You can't take it personal, but you also can't just laugh at all. You have to have some kind of constructive way to deal with it. And if you feel that it overwhelms you at all or you feel that it's weighing on you, there's lots of venues for help. This places you can go, a lot of guys don't like to go to their own agencies for help because they feel there's some kind of stigma. There's lots of outside agencies to help. Chris's journey led to an important charitable work. That sense of community did not retire when he did. I currently deal with Lord enforcement almost on a daily basis. So we offer a hand, we offer an outreach, we offer a way to get help and our daily interaction with Lord was we always get this message out there. There is help available. You're not alone if you need help. Reach out. We'll get you help. We often talk about why those in the law enforcement community choose to work violent crimes cases and of course homicides. And we ask the question to Chris, why was this case so important to you? In my mind, this guy was really forgotten. No one was even looked for a nobody knew he was gone. But that doesn't mean he deserved any less justice or any less effort. No matter what kind of lifestyle you live, you're a victim of a homicide, you have a family. Doesn't that feel me deserve some kind of answers to what happens to you? Even if you are a criminal, do you deserve to be murdered? In this case, kind of jumped out to me because this is the case that nobody cared about. But it did to me. Tune in next week for another new episode of Anatomy of Murder. Anatomy of Murder is an audio chakka original. Produced and created by Weinberger Media and Frisetti Media. Ashley Flowers is executive producer. So what do you think Chak, do you approve? Ils!