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If you're looking for a new show unlike anything you've ever heard before, check out audio Chuck's latest series killed. Each episode of killed covers a story that you may have never read because it was killed before it got published. I'm Justine Harman, who some of you may know from my show OC swingers, and I'm here to bring these dead stories back to life binge killed right now to get the full story. Hi everyone, Ashley Flowers here and I have exciting news to share. My debut novel, all good people here is officially out now. Our fans are blowing up our social talking about it. You do not want to be left out and the worst thing that could happen is for someone else to spoil it for you because there are some wild twists in this book. If you love true crime content, mysteries, and a grown up Nancy Drew style detective work then I have a good feeling you won't be able to put this book down. So what are you waiting for? Grab your copy of all good people here now, wherever books are sold. Any person, any human being, whether you're a police officer or not, if you view the scene as it was, and the sheer violence that was perpetrated against her is more than enough motivation to work your hardest to bring it to a resolution. I'm Scott Weinberger, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff. Belasi former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's true conviction, and this is anatomy of murder. Today's story can only be described as devastatingly tragic on multiple levels. We often talk about the dedication of members of law enforcement or the judicial system, about really solving cases. But in today's case you will hear it go, we believe, to another level. And because of the span of time and the different components, the many components involved, we spoke to two people involved in the case. My name is Daniel J Kane. I arrived in the detective squad in 2011. The Lieutenant, who's now the police chief here in Schenectady, arrived in the detective squad approximately 4 months before I did. Our story starts off in 2011 in Schenectady, NY, where the Police Department had just begun a new effort into relooking at unsolved homicides in the city. Immediately upon coming on board, it was Lieutenant who felt that we. Could put a bigger emphasis on cold cases than what they were receiving. Helping in that initiative was Detective Sergeant Dan Cain, who had just transferred from Rd Patrol, Ready to take on a really big challenge. Sergeant Kane began digging into cold cases in 2011 and one of the cases he started to look at the victim's name was Eddie Dan. It was a homicide here in the city. He was actually a door to door salesman for Kirby vacuums, which I found very interesting because, you know, as a kid, I don't even remember that. The crux of it was it was a home invasion robbery that ended with Eddie Dan's life. Mr Dan was brutally beaten and from head to almost midsection was duct tape, basically from the top of his head right down to his chest area. His hands were tied behind his back. His feet were tied with duct tape as well. But we're not actually talking about that case today, but another homicide that wasn't even on any of their radar. We were going to contact retired detectives and reinterview them, if you will pick their brain. One of the detectives, Sergeant Kane, would ask for information was a retired detective, Roy Edwardson. When we were done discussing the case that he had actually come in to talk about, he had asked me if we could speak in private outside in the Police Department parking lot. And at the end of the day, he pulls Sergeant Kane aside and says, hey, while I have you, here's something else I really talked about. And he basically has his own set of files on a completely different case. And he began to tell me about the Norman case. This was the type of case that affected him very deeply, was a case that he carried with him in retirement. It was one of those cases where he just couldn't stop thinking about it. He couldn't let it go. And by the end of that conversation, he basically said he made me promise him one police officer to another, that I would look into this case. You know, I can really relate anesthesia to that story. It's just more proof that when case detectives retire and it's the unsolved cases that keep them up, still having to think about the victims, still having a desire to bring them justice and even going to the point of requesting another detective look at his files. I mean, that shows incredible dedication. I've never met former Detective Edwardson, but I already think that I would like him. I mean, there's just something about him. So wanting to talk to Sergeant Kane, and I almost thought it was kind of funny that he's like, OK, you want to talk about one case? I'm more than happy to come in. But what I even more want to talk to you about was his own agenda. And it's just this promise that, hey, this is a case that I couldn't let go. And now I don't want you to let it go either. It became very, very clear to me in the course of our conversation and how passionate he was about this case. He actually had his own little case file that he brought with him. The fact that Roy kept those files shows the victim in this investigation remained front and center on his mind. Just like No2 painters or artists are the same or alike. Detectives have their own methods of walking through an investigation. And of course, while you do have to check all the boxes off, each investigator really knows what they're good at, their file or their case Bible really becomes a true reflection of their work. And that's the thing too. You know, all of us in this line of work, we bring our work home with us, literally sometimes, you know, I have a file cabinet. That is all my old summations and various things, not original copies of police reports. They need to stay at the office and I'm sure the same as detectives too. They take copies of things that are meaningful to them. And here's something else. You haven't heard a word yet about Suzanne Nauman or her case, but the fact that this is the one that stayed with that particular detective tells you it is going to be something that will likely stay with you all. So what I did immediately was went to the division secretary and together we went downstairs into the Police Department archives, and I pulled the Suzanne Norman case out of the archives. Sergeant Kane would gather up all his files, spread them out over a table, and begin to review crime scene documents, medical examiner reports, witness interviews. So as he poured over the papers that sat in that box for all those years, he quickly learned that she had been killed in 1995, and up until that point her case had gone. Unsolved for 16 years, and it became abundantly clear that it was absolutely a case that was worthy of our best effort. The crime scene photos was enough motivation for me to bring this case forward, presented to the Lieutenant, and shortly after that the investigation began. So investigators go through the case starting at the beginning and that's where our 2nd guest comes in. My name is Robert Carney. I'm the Schenectady County District Attorney and I have been the District Attorney of this county since January of 1990. And often DA's and prosecutors do go to crime scenes after police respond. DA Robert Carney would go to all homicide cases himself. I heard about it the day that it happened, and I was there. I'm probably one of the last people from law enforcement that was still employed that was at the scene that day. In May of 1995, Suzanne Nauman's body was found near a golf course in Schenectady and she laid there in dirt. Her body was discovered, I think, by golf course personnel early that morning. There was a dirt parking strip and then there was a wooded area and on the other side of the wooded area was the side of the driving range, and that's where she was found, right next to the wooded area. And it didn't take long before police were called, and what they saw there is the type of thing that no one was out there will ever forget. And it was pretty clear that there was signs of a struggle in the wooded area and where she was found. She was lying on her back. Her body was mostly exposed, there were bite marks on her breast and I believe that her pants and underwear had been pulled off of one leg and were still wrapped around the other leg. But that was the body of a young girl, 17 years old, left lying on her back. Just think about the terror as debris is stuffed into her mouth. It also tells you that she must have been tough because there were signs of a struggle, and there were also signs of attempted at least sexual assault. That she fought. And she fought hard, but she lost. Nearby the body, there was a man sneaker size 8 1/2, and the sneaker was missing a lace. When the shoelace was later removed from her body, it was compared with the sneaker and the discolorations in the shoelace matched the eyelets of the sneaker. You know, we talk about some of the cool things about evidence and how police figure things out. This to me was something that struck me right away, was that they were able to actually match that shoelace to the sneaker because they could match the discoloration on the shoelace itself that it matched exactly to the various eyelets. You know, the things that you put 1 lace into the other in a shoe. And that is one of those things that once it was documented and photographed, that is preserved for all time. And while basic in its nature, it's the exact type of thing in police. Work that just may make a very big bit of difference in the end. So it's pretty clear that that shoelace came from that sneaker, which was then discarded. At the scene we found a sneaker print which was close to where a car would have been parked and somebody would have walked in the direction of the woods, and the sneaker print was the same size and the same tread pattern as the discarded sneaker at the scene. The victim was lying on her back, and there was debris stuffed in her mouth, including leaves and sticks, so it appeared. That he was trying to silence her. The sort of disorganized homicide that didn't appear to have the hallmarks of any planning, but that it did seem to occur there. Based on her being partially clothed as well and the bite marks to the breast, it was clear that this was a homicide which was sexual in nature. And then you go to the fact of strangulation. You know, we've said this in other cases, strangulation is a very personal crime. In some cases, it's determined that the victim and the killer normally are only inches apart from each other. When the murderer occurs, she's not strangled with the rope. She is strangled with a shoelace. Take any shoelace out of any sneaker you have. Pull it and that is how much there was available to the killer to literally wrap around her neck and snuff out her life. Let's back up a second and tell you more about Suzanne. She was a teenager with a difficult past and she did not have many people looking out for her. Suzanne Nauman was a young woman who, from the time she was a girl, was victimized. Both of her parents had issues with substance misuse and at a very young age Suzanne was forced into sex work by someone she should have been able to trust. And just a quick warning, this next detail is disturbing. Her father's investigation revealed that he had prostituted his daughter at a young age for his own drug habit when she was maybe six or seven years old, and that after he died she continued in her mother's care, if you can call it that. But her mother was also a crack addict and would was a prostitute, and then the two of them became addicted together and engaged in acts of prostitution together. When I heard that part of that beginning, if you will, of Suzanne's life, she had my heart right there. It is always one of those things that I can just, you cannot understand or wrap your head around. You know, as a prosecutor, I've seen unfortunately, just that. There's two young women I'm thinking of. And the thing that I remember about them both, which I somehow also picture with Suzanne, is that they were tough, really tough as a result, because they had to be. They had no choice. Which to me makes them all the more vulnerable. And that innocence was ripped from them. And I just think as we talked through this case, let's continue to remember that because it will be a factor in some of the various next steps of her life. A 17 year old girl should be thinking about graduating high school. A 17 year old girl should be thinking about where she may want to go to college, or that first job that will shape her future. Instead. For Suzanne, this appeared like a living hell, and it doesn't just affect us this way, it clearly affected Detective Edwardson the same way too. I think it was the fact that Suzanne Nauman was a 17 year old kid and he was a parent himself. Just felt very strongly that it what happened to her was terrible and should never have happened. He was hoping at some point after the case was solved that he wanted to buy a headstone to put on her grave. This is why we think we should highlight these cases. This type of case, while often talked about in the media, is not given enough attention or apathy towards the victim because they may have been involved in drugs or they may have been sex workers. But that's not our position here. You often hear from the media that someone who may be on the fringes of society or marginalized or had a more difficult life and maybe walking down a difficult path, isn't caring about by police or prosecutors or really anyone at all. And this case is a great example, and a prime example to show that that just isn't true that the Suzanne Naamans of the world, which unfortunately are many, are cared about too. I've prided myself, and my office has has one that cares deeply about homicides. There's nothing more destructive of the community than the death of somebody from that community, regardless of their walk of life or how they comported themselves or what people think of them subjectively as a human being. Investigators begin with that all important timeline. What were the events that led up to Suzanne Nauman being at that golf course? Why was she there? How did she get there and who was she with? You know, her mother was with her that night. They were turning tricks and doing drugs together. She was not as interested in what happened to her daughter as one would think a mother would be. Knowing Suzanne was in the line of work only brings the fact that she may have been involved in several random encounters with people. And there's also been plenty of cases where sex workers are specifically targeted because the thought is they're doing something illegal and it may be less likely that society will care about them. So is Suzanne's killer going to be a stranger or someone she knew? Police quickly zero in on someone. And is someone that was actually with her that night not who you might expect because that person was her boyfriend? Police do determine early on who Suzanne was with hours before she was murdered. That person would turn out to be her boyfriend, Keith Gauvreau. He was with her that night before and then she went off on her own. He couldn't find her. When he was questioned by police, he admitted he was with her on the night she died, but he was sure she was alive when he left her. And he also said she was picked up by another man. How common is a story like this? And I say that because everyone out there can probably tick off some in the head, you know, girl dies, boyfriends or husbands, the last person to see her, and then they end up being the person that did it. I mean, just think about cases lately that you've heard and talk about in the last years, the obvious, the Chris Watts. I even think about one of the more recent. Aom episodes of Alisha McQueen and we could go on and on. You know it is unfortunately the story that you hear time and again that the boyfriend or the loved one is the person that did it. He told police that he was walking with her when a car pulled over and picked her up with his consent to perform some act of prostitution. He described the car's general description of the driver and then it headed up generally in a direction which could have taken her to the golf course. But he was adamant, but that was the last time he saw him. But most people didn't believe that he was being truthful about that. So let's look more closely at Keith Gabereau and what, if any, motive he may have had if he was the one that killed her. He was angry that she was possibly turning tricks with other men and that she wasn't there to provide him with drugs, because their usual modus operandi would be that she would prostitute herself, get money, and the two of them would use the money to buy drugs. So he told a couple of people that he was furious with her. He showed one of them a knife that he had where he said he was going to kill anybody who was with her, and he told another person that he was going to hurt her when he found her. That statement was curious to me because the fact that he depended on her work as a sex worker to feed his high, but on the other hand, he was upset that she was with another man. The statement makes no sense to me, but it does make sense that he would be on the top of my suspect list. And the thing that I come down to is this, it's like, OK, she is the, you know, I hate to say the breadwinner, if you will, of the couple, but she was. But when emotions get involved, unfortunately too often. They end up with disaster. And he was angry at that moment, and maybe it wasn't because she had gone off with somebody else, and maybe it had. She hadn't come back quickly enough to help feed his high. But regardless, the last statements that he made to other people was that when he saw her again, he was going to hurt her. Investigators would get witness statements to talk about the couple, but getting a witness to tell you a story in the street is one thing. Getting them to repeat that story to a potential grand jury, or even if you go to trial, is not as easy as it sounds. In fact, it's often very difficult. In the urban environment, it just appears to be a street code, if you will, that you don't talk to the police. We've all heard it. You know, that's sane. On the streets about, snitches get stitches. And here's the thing about this particular investigation. You know, they did get a fair degree of cooperation from other people that were friends with Suzanne and that knew her, however many of those people. Their recollection was unfortunately fueled at least in part by their own narcotics misuse. So those recollections were hazy, they were inconsistent, and that ultimately really puts at least major dents in any investigation, and was proving problematic in this one indeed. We've had several cases in my office over the years of people engaged in sex work who were assaulted and viciously beaten, and we've had some success with taking those cases to trial. We realized there's techniques in dealing with them to get past that fear or thought that nobody's going to believe me, so why should I even bother? There was definitely questions about the fact that was Keith Gavra responsible for the murder of Suzanne Nauman? And for me, anesthesia. I'd be questioning why commit a murder in such a public place, especially when the body was left to be discovered and that sex was the motivation for this murder based on the way her body was left in the bite marks on her breasts. With someone that you're already in a relationship with, the MO does not fit. I could not agree more because again, of course there can be sexual assault or attempted sexual assault between partners, and people do crazy things when they are misusing narcotics or just when anger gets in play. But this, it just doesn't fit. You don't normally have such a vivid sexual assault seen as we have here, and then it ends up being a intimate partner homicide. It usually goes to someone who is there for the power play. With the sexual assault attack, and that most often is not going to be a loved one or someone entangled in an interpersonal relationship. They were reconstructing her activities of the night before and just reconstructing her movements. They were all revolved around prostitution and drug use and avoidance of him that night. And I think the problem in this case is even though these people were talked to pretty quickly after the incident, because they were all using drugs, their recollections of the details of the night were hazy or inconsistent. It was hard to get one consistent story from all of the eyewitnesses. Let's sidestep for a moment and lay the groundwork for the picture of where Schenectady and the drug scene was back then. At the time, Schenectady is an old city. It was settled in the mid 1600s and at that point it was the furthest W outpost of civilization in the late 80s, early 90s, middle 90s. Schenectady is a blue collar city and at the time it was gripped with the. Crack cocaine epidemic that was sweeping the nation, which led to an uptick in violence and crime within the confines of the city. Now I could tell you first hand, I patrolled the streets of a very similar city in the 80s and much of my uniform work involved not only traditional calls for service, but trying to be proactive against St level drug dealing, which was primarily crack cocaine. My district would see several homicides relating to crack cocaine, whether it was somebody coming into the area to buy crack cocaine on the street being robbed. 4 drug dealers coming in to rip off other drug dealers, resulting in multiple shootouts during my tenure and that definitely feeds into the difficulty that investigators had and investigating this case. So what they had left to do right now is this. They had to see if they could rule Keith Gaveau in or out. So if they could only get so far with the witnesses, where else could they go? And the obvious answer, even though it was the early days, was DNA and everything really then circled back to the bite marks. On the day her body was discovered, investigators knew the bite marks would be key evidence. In fact, in a very unusual move, members of the forensic lab themselves came out to process the bite Marks and collected DNA, a job normally done by crime scene investigators. Each member of the scene felt like the collection would be key and that's why this very forward leaning move was made. We were pretty excited that we thought that that might produce a lead. You have to remember these were the early days of DNA and. DNA worked best when you had bodily fluids like blood or semen that at a crime scene. Saliva was a little iffy back then, but we didn't get anything on the DNA unfortunately. No DNA, but they still have the evidence of the bite marks themselves. I know that investigators showed the bite mark photos and and impression of Keith Gavril's teeth to a forensic odontologist who was affiliated with the state police and was very experienced in this work. Talk about bite marks for a second, because it is a really neat part of investigation. You know, you hear it and you automatically perk up because you want to hear more. But here's something else about it is that there is a lot of question marks about this type of science itself. You know, I've certainly handled lots of cases with other assistance that we've seen, and we've really seen it at times become pivotal only to prove later problematic. And here's why there is an element of subjectivity with this type of work. You know you have. Examiners looking and making conclusions based on what they see in their perception. At least in part, he looked at it and his conclusion was that it was inconclusive. He couldn't rule him out. He couldn't rule him in. They showed the bite mark to another local Schenectady dentist was of the opinion that the bite mark was gavros. You know, having a local dentist give you his opinion that you're on the right path, only being backed up by the opposite opinion of obviously, a professional. In the forensic light of work that is tossing up both ways for me, but I clearly believe that the person who worked on the state police level had done several cases prior to this, so I'm leaning that it's not. And again, it's all information that you want to have. And of course someone could come up with the right answer who doesn't have the same training or background. But you already can see the push and pull the tug of war, if you will, with this type of science, and that is why it has proven to be very difficult to use in the courtroom. And problematic when we are asked to rely on bite wound evidence as our markers of finding killers. But there's one more detail you're about to learn about Gauvreau. And that's the murder of another person. So let's Fast forward to five months later, because here's where things really get interesting. In October of 1995, a man named Kenneth Martin was murdered. He had suffered multiple blows to the back of his head, and police quickly found and arrested the person responsible for that homicide and that person. Was Keith gavara? Gabbro was involved in the death of another individual later. Now, let's be clear. These two cases are unrelated, but if guilty, he shows he's capable of murder. I mean, of course, anytime that you hear that someone has taken a life before, it makes you turn your head more quickly in their direction. But, you know, there's a reason that that evidence is not normally admissible in court because you've done something, albeit horrible before doesn't make you guilty of the next one in the line. But it's certainly something investigators were going to look at and make them look even more closely at Keith Gavra and more suspect of everything. Said so at the moment, Kavanaugh was in jail for a separate murder, and police were still looking at him as the prime suspect in Suzanne's murder. But it's pretty unclear whether he did it or not. So you need a lot more to arrest somebody and charge them with murder. And here's something else about the two as I think more about it. In the one case, there is blows to the back of the head. It's brutal, but it's pretty straightforward. Yet when you look at Suzanne, there is definitely that power. The attempted sexual assault, at least at play, it's a very different type of murder. So while one person could be responsible for both, just looking at the two crimes themselves, to me that makes me leaning to that. It's much more unlikely. While Gauvreau was in jail awaiting trial, apparently there is an interesting conversation he has with a fellow inmate. There were a couple of people that came forward from the jail environment claiming that Gabrielle had confessed to them having murdered Suzanne Nauman. Now let's just talk about jailhouse confessions for a moment. I've certainly seen my share of them. Most of them I've chosen not to use. In many of them I haven't believed. But I do think that sometimes that they can be credible and sometimes usable. But you have to be really careful when using them and any prosecutor will tell you this so often there is the obvious wall. Is it self-serving? Does the person who is incarcerated just want to help themselves? There's the obvious credibility factor that this is coming from someone that you know is sitting in jail. Having been convicted of a crime, so you have to be extremely wary. I mean, you took all the words from me and I said absolutely, I agree. You know, we've done several stories where this critical information allegedly comes from a jailhouse informant. And, you know, sometimes the information is accurate, but most times it's total fabrication. It's unfortunate to the system that we work through that that actually has to enter into a scenario of an investigation when it could be just for the benefit of the person telling the story. I wasn't really impressed with that evidence, and he ended up being convicted of the manslaughter of Kenneth Martin. He pled guilty and was sentenced to three to nine years. After people had come forward from prison saying that Keith Gaveau had confessed to the crime, well, the police placed him under arrest for Suzanne's murder. And that word that I used, police is where I see the next tug of war here. Because normally in most jurisdictions that is going to be coming from the district Attorney's office, not the police. Obviously they work hand in hand, but it's the District Attorney who's going to normally authorize the arrest. We usually work together. That didn't happen in this case. Clearly this is divide building here, right? You have the investigators who believe they have more than enough evidence to place them under arrest, but the District Attorney wasn't following that same path. He really still felt there was much more work to be done. I think it was a situation where there was an outgoing chief that wanted to close up open homicide, so I was told about it after the fact. So that was a little unusual. And I could just imagine that conversation, anesthesia in his office of them wanting to push this thing forward. Every homicide prosecutor knows that conversation in and out. So does every homicide detective, because we have had them and we have battled. And that is of those that we are closest to and trust the most, because we sometimes see things differently and police are looking at it for probable cause to arrest. They obviously want to get someone who has committed such a heinous crime off the street as quickly as possible, and the prosecutor wants that too. But we also know that our standard in the courtroom is different. Is proof beyond the reasonable doubt, and we know that we normally only get one shot at that, and in this case there was definitely that difference of opinion that they just weren't at least there yet. And if you're listing out the evidence against Gauvreau, you're going to be talking about what investigators believe they had. They had a leading theory that was heavily influenced by the bite Marks and two other important factors, eyewitness interviews that not only put Gauvreau with Suzanne hours before she was murdered, but he allegedly told witness that he wanted to harm the person that she was with, and they felt that was strong evidence, strong circumstantial evidence, that he had a reason to kill Suzanne. There was evidence that pointed to him circumstantially. Was the person with a motive to do something and that an opportunity to do something, the last person seeing with him. So I get that, but just on the surface there, that was not enough to get over the finish line for this District Attorney. This open arrest for the murder of Suzanne Nauman and I elected not to indict him on that. DA Carney sought a bit differently. While he saw those pieces going in One Direction, he certainly thought holes that could be poked into all of them, that at least some of it was subjective or he was even suspect about what some of these people had said. So basically you had a combination of conflicting white mark evidence. You had these jailhouse confessions, and then you had the circumstantial evidence of his desire to hurt her and anybody that was with her that night. But there was something else that he just couldn't get past. And that was a particular piece of evidence that was found at the crime scene. The main piece of evidence that caused me to hesitate to prosecute him was the sneaker event. As anxious as investigators were to move this to the trial phase, the District Attorney was traveling on a different path, and that path was to drop charges against Keith Gauvreau, and that move caused a huge rift between prosecutors and police. I had good relationships with the investigators that worked in this case. I had a somewhat difficult relationship with the chief at the time, but we have an obligation to independently analyze the evidence, and we do that even though we work closely with police. And I think that some of the police officers that work the case had doubts too about gabbro. In the end, any homicide investigator sitting in the office of anybody who's prosecuting case realizes that it really is up to the prosecutor on that specific case to make the determination to move the case forward. So even though I may plead my case to a prosecutor, understanding that I believe in the evidence and I really believe in my case, it really is out of our hands. The decision lies with the prosecutor. But in this case, for DA Carney, it really came down to one piece. Of evidence, and that was the sneaker that we talked about earlier. You'll remember from early in the episode that detectives had found a sneaker at the crime scene. It's pretty clear that the killer was wearing that sneaker and took the lace off and used it as a ligature to kill Suzanne, leaving the sneaker behind. While that sneaker was a man sneaker size 8 1/2 and the big problem for our case against gabru is gabbro worse size 11. In the very same year that Suzanne Nauman was murdered, well across the country, a defense attorney would approach a jury in a very well known murder trial, telling them that if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. That was Johnny Cochran and the murder trial of OJ Simpson in September of 1995. In the Suzanne Nauman case, investigators would determine that Suzanne Nauman's boyfriend, Keith Gaveau, wore a size 11 shoe, and that would not be a match for the sneaker found at the scene of the murder, which was size 8 1/2. And for a prosecutor that comes down to two words, exculpatory evidence. And what exculpatory is very basically is that it's evidence favorable to the accuser at least that may be favorable to the accused in a criminal trial that can exonerate someone or at least tend to negate go against the guilt of that person. So that's something that obviously has to be turned over to the defense. But here it actually cast so much doubt because everything showed that the killers path was the same size as the sneaker and you know that Keith Gavra, while we can all fit our foot into, you know. Half a size here or there, we're talking about over 2 sizes that were different between his foot and the sneaker. So of course, if that sneaker is the killer sneaker, it just couldn't be him. Any piece of evidence is just a lead. It's a piece of evidence. So if you had something like that, you'd consider it, but you consider it within the totality of all of the evidence in the case. But I also looked at the totality of the evidence, which I'm obligated to do ethically for Keith Gavrilo against him. And the problem in the case was I couldn't get past the sneaker and I never wanted to tag and saying, well, he had a bunch of sneakers in his closet, different sizes. So you know, he was haphazard, so he could have, you know, he could have worn that. Think and I said really? A size 11 foot stuffed into a size 8 1/2 shoe? I don't think so. So if TA Robert Carney is sure it wasn't Keith Gauvreau, then who? Who did they miss? And while you have already heard a lot, there is still so much more to come. There is another murder that you'll hear about in this case, in an incredible twist, they would learn that it would be the victim herself, Suzanne Nauman, who would leave a valuable clue, one that would lead investigators to her own killer. Those answers in part two of our story. Next Wednesday. Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck original produced and created by Weinberger Media and for SETI Media. Ashley Flowers and Summit David are executive producers. It was researched and produced by Haley Lucas Shevitz. So what do you think, Chuck, do you approve? Umm.