Anatomy of Murder

A murder case has many layers: the victim, the crime, and the investigation. To truly understand it, you need to dissect each piece of a tragic puzzle. Join Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi and Scott Weinberger every Wednesday for an insider’s perspective, as they reveal to you the Anatomy of Murder.

A Bridge to Murder

A Bridge to Murder

Wed, 10 Feb 2021 08:00

A missing daughter. A mother’s intuition leads her search to a local bridge. She finds her daughter’s body, and soon becomes … the #1 suspect. Right or dead wrong?

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If you're looking for a new show unlike anything you've ever heard before, check out audio Chuck's latest series killed. Each episode of killed covers a story that you may have never read because it was killed before it got published. I'm Justine Harman, who some of you may know from my show OC swingers, and I'm here to bring these dead stories back to life binge killed right now to get the full story. Hi everyone, Ashley Flowers here and I have exciting news to share. My debut novel, all good people here is officially out now. Our fans are blowing up our social talking about it. You do not want to be left out and the worst thing that could happen is for someone else to spoil it for you because there are some wild twists in this book. If you love true crime content, mysteries, and a grown up Nancy Drew style detective work then I have a good feeling you won't be able to put this book down. So what are you waiting for? Grab your copy of all good people here now, wherever books are sold. Did she consent to have sex with you? As a result of that, there is struggle. And so yes, how did you assault her? I put my hands on her arms. You understand she died from that. Yes. I'm Scott Weinberger's, investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff. Glassie former New York City homicide prosecutor and host of Investigation Discovery's true conviction, and this is anatomy of murder. In some of the cases we cover, tragedy strikes over or during a holiday weekend, a time where families gather to celebrate. And for them, each subsequent anniversary of that tragedy is a reminder of a terrible pain to lose someone, especially to a violent crime. Today's case is no different. It's Thanksgiving week, 2003. Harry Williams and, along with his wife Wilma and three children with his family, have big plans for that week. And they had their routine down Pat. I'm the cook of the family. My daughter was found in my footsteps. You know, Sharita loved the cook, she loved the club, and I love showing her how to cope. Well, Trina loves the yams. Yeah, I would put it in the oven and everything, but she would prepare everything and that was her glory. The sweet potatoes. Harry and his wife had three children. They had two daughters and a son. Their middle daughter, Sharita, was 16 years old in 2003. She had an older sister and a younger brother. The power to your face when you was around her. It was like the catalyst of the family. I love it best. His nickname for her? Sunshine. The reason why they called shared the sunshine was because every time she came around it just lit up the place and people smiling and she would be smiling and she just put sunshine to the area. I guess I I don't know. My daughter was such a good girl. She had a lot of friends. She was interested in the things that normal teenagers are, which is her clothing and the nail Polish and the way that she did her hair. She loved taking pictures. She loved this show off her clothes, and she was very meticulous about her lots. The Williams live in Pennsauken, NJ, which is just outside of Philadelphia. It's like a blue collar neighborhood. I mean, you have some of your areas that more affluent than others, but I'm talking generally is a very good Township. Murders were unheard of. We didn't have crime here per se. And everyone knows that Thanksgiving is a Thursday and then next Friday, we know it by Black Friday. And it's a day that people shop. And whether it's online or in person, it is known to be an extremely busy day with people out and about. And for Sharita, that was her next day to kind of just get out. It was about maybe like 5:00 o'clock. She was going out the door and her mom told her three to be careful out there, and she told my wife's mom I turned 16. I'm fine now. Nobody gonna bother me and I truly thought that I heard that. And then she walked out the door. That's the last I heard of my daughter. That night, Harry went out to work, and as it turns out, Harry is a member of law enforcement. Harry works as a correction officer at a local prison, so for him it meant putting on a badge, a uniform and a gun and going to a prison for his night shift. No, my wife said. Harry said. What Serena didn't come along with that would mean sharing. Come home last night. Anyone. Doesn't matter if you have kids or not, just hearing that a child has not come home overnight. A child that never before has done something like this. You could just imagine the fear factor running through their minds. That is something that no parent, let alone the parents of a 16 year old, wants to hear. They know their daughter. They know this is not normal. I started thinking the words. I don't know what happened to my daughter, but something's happened to my daughter. My daughter would have called by this time. I mean, it was the next day. It was going into the afternoon. We had not received no calls or anything from her. And so in my mind, I knew something was wrong. We started calling around for her and nobody knew nothing about my daughter, about her whereabouts or or where she had been or anything like that. No one had seen Sharita after she left the nail salon at 5:30. We call it depends on the Police Department. Make a missing persons report, mind you. I mean, it hasn't been 24 hours, but my daughter didn't do this. They said they would take the report, but, you know, maybe she ran away or something. Run away from what? You know, Harry is communicating with officers. And of course, the important information is. Who is her circle of friends? Where do you believe she may be? And then what would lead you to believe, Harry, something is really wrong here, more than just the fact that you know your daughter's habits and she may not have run away, that she may just be in trouble. And Harry prevailed on them. They took that report. But, you know, as you hear Harry speak, he is a realist, you know? And I know when a missing persons report is taken, that's all that's taken. Ain't going to be no big investigation. Where's he been? Or, you know, she happened to pop up. Me and my wife only had one recourse was to go look for our daughter ourselves. So obviously Harry, being a member of law enforcement, has a sense to himself that bad things do happen, and quickly. He wanted to be able to go out and begin a search himself and his family. As we all know, those first hours are critical if something indeed bad is going on. So the first real leak came when one of. Heritage friends called investigators to say that Sharita had a new crush on a boy who lived in the city of Camden, which was just over the 36th St Bridge. His name was Greg. Greg was was a young man that my daughter had an interest in. She really liked this guy Greg now his like for her. It may not have been mutual, but she actually liked Greg Trida, wanted to buy him a birthday gift, and I went and bought him a fishing pole. That was my only meeting with right. I didn't, you know, talk to him or anything after that. I didn't really didn't get involved with my kids feelings, but it's in question. Who is he? Who's his dad? Who's his mom? What does dad do? What his mom do? I thought that they had the right state of mind. And, you know, he's 16 years old. You know, she's had a normal. 16 year old relationship. So the first thing that Harry wanted to do was to go to where Greg lived. I went to his house and his mother came to the door. Outing uniform they were. Can I help you? I said, well, I'm looking for my daughter, Sharita Williams. Was she here? And she told me, yeah, she was here. But I turned her away. Like turned away. Yeah, I turned away because my son was sleep and he didn't want to be bothered. Now, you know, it was raining outside. It was definitely a Black Friday. Basically, she told me she didn't like my daughter anyway. So which way did she leave when she left here, she pointed towards a level Rd. She went that away. So, you know, I went down that way and looked around. You know, I couldn't find nothing. Once, home sheriff's mom all of a sudden has, whether you call it an epiphany, a premonition. I think of it as a mother's intuition, she said. She's got a gut feeling that she knows where Sharita is and she races out the door, and that gut feeling provides the answer to where their daughter was. Well, this is one of the most mystifying things that could ever happen. Later on that day, about 200, my wife said, hey, I'm going back over that bridge. But just talking about that bridge between to something about the bridge, I'm going back over the bridge. Maybe she got hit and rolled under the bridge or something. Could she have been hit by a car and fell over the side of the bridge? She's not really sure, but she thinks the bridge is involved in some way. She went over that bridge and there's a woman that she says she could see. That was a young girl under that bridge that was dead, but she didn't know if it was charity, she said. I don't think it was her either. She called the police, she called me. You're about to hear portions of that 911 call and that the quality of the audio is not great. So listen closely as Sherita's mom tells the operator that her daughter is missing, but she found a dead body under the bridge and she does not think it's sharida. My daughter's missing and she walked over this last night. Yeah, he did look like charity, but it was a young girl in my mind. I said that's for Rita. So Harry and other family members quickly arrived to the crime scene, but police already have entire scene taped off once I got there. It was one on on the scene at the time and he was basically securing the area. And I want to see my daughter. And of course he wouldn't let me see my daughter. He had to hold me back a little bit because I it's that's my daughter. That might be my daughter. I need to see my daughter. Keep in mind, this is an active crime scene. I mean, there hasn't been any identification of the body, so while he thinks that it's sharita, it very well may not be her. But if it was her, even then there's potential evidence there. Police don't want that messed with at all. They don't want any contamination, and they certainly don't want there to be any open attack. By the defense, if they ever get that far. So while you can certainly understand from the father's perspective that he wants to get in there investigators, they need to keep that crime scene line hard and fast and protect the investigation. So by that time the detectives came over Billy Wheeler and a couple of other officers there, they said, alright, well that's take a walk. And I said, alright, I'll take a walk with you guys, but. Yeah, I need to know if that's my daughter. OK, we'll tell you that we think you do the lead, the singing right now. You know we can't have you like this. So I left. The officers that were there, they just happened to be the same officers who took the missing persons report just the day earlier. The police are examining the body under the bridge so the victim had a black bandana type cloth around her neck. Her hands were tied behind her back with a cloth that was apparently ripped off her jacket and even though she still had her jeans on, her underwear was missing. Her cause of death was quickly revealed it was excruciation 2 plastic bags. Had been stuffed down her throat. Now, those officers on the scene who had taken the original report quickly discovered that the clothing that deceased woman is wearing matches the description of Sharita during that missing persons report. So they know this dead woman is 16 year old Sharita Williams, and then they take Sherita's mom and put her in the back of a squad car. My wife was in the back of the police car. Because Mom, do you have to understand that the same people that made the report about a missing person is the same people that found? My daughter. The red flags went up according to them. Right after we found my daughter, we became the number one suspect. For police, it came down to this. The parents had filed a missing persons report at 10:00 AM Saturday morning and then it's them that find the body at just after three and right away their radar went up. Sad because my daughter's under the bridge and my wife and the police car come on. While everyone says, and I certainly say like, how awful, these parents are finding out that their daughter. Is dead, murdered under a bridge. And now they're being looked at as suspects #1. But let's take a step sideways here for a second, Scott, because how many times, unfortunately, have we seen on the news the grieving parents think of the Chris Watts scenario, that they're up there searching for their significant others, their children, and then you find out in the end that they were the ones responsible all along. You know, in any homicide investigation, it's SOP or standard operating procedure to look at the people closest to the victim. You guys have all heard that so many times, but as investigators, you're keeping your options wide open and then you narrow the field of suspects with facts and evidence. The first to be questioned was the parents of Sharita Harry and Wilma Williams. He came over to me and you know, they asked me a question, said Harry. Who did you have to kill? Your daughter? Scott, while everyone saying this is awful, the parents are being looked at. Let's talk to the realities here or just even from your perspective. Why? It is that Harry's wife seems suspicious to police. Shari's own mom was the one who finds the body under the bridge, and that is a very unusual situation where a family member finds the deceased. So I think they were thinking there could be some connection to that and they just wanted to follow the evidence. There was. We went out and found my daughter. Whereas you guys bit. I mean, if we didn't go looking for my daughter, my daughter would probably still be in there for who knows how long. And then it came to the point where maybe we need a lawyer. I decided not to do that because we didn't do anything wrong. Parents going down to a precinct in a homicide case of their child. There's nothing unusual about that, right? It happens all the time because they are going to be some of the ones to be giving the initial information. But it was handled quite differently here because they weren't just questioned. Harry's wife was given a computerized voice stress analyzation test. Now we've talked about this test before, which is sort of like a polygraph, but it uses waves and patterns of your voice to try to determine whether you're being truthful or not, and that is a forward leaning. Gap in this investigation and it really made the family super uncomfortable. So what they did was they gave my wife the voice stress analyzer, you know, and I gave you the area. When I come back, my wife is in tears. I said, well, what's wrong? And she said they said that I know what happened to our daughter. So now I'm like, well, I know my wife didn't have anything to do with this. You know, people have their views on polygraphs, and the reason they're not admissible in court? Well, these voice analyzer tests are VSA that they're called, and many people will say that it's 5050 when it comes to accuracy at best. But really what it's used for and what you hope for is that by putting that down in the room and telling someone that their voice is going to be analyzed for changes in pattern that can ferret out deception. Well, that's going to hopefully at least deter lying after the parents. Were done with their interview with police. They went back home only to get a phone call from investigators with news. He said, yeah, I the voice stress analyzer came up wrong. We put it through the computer and she's fine. Detectives did return back to the scene under that bridge to Recanvass for more evidence, and that search yielded 2 big clues. The underwear we talked about was thrown into a grassy area next to the bridge, and a second clue, a Modell's sporting goods receipt, which matched the plastic bags found, stuffed down her throat. And the receipt was dated the same day of the homicide. And those receipts lead investigators to Modell's. But on that specific day, the cameras weren't working. And further to that. Remember, it's Black Friday. There's thousands of people here, the employee they questioned said. We really don't remember seeing anybody at that time, which is indicated on the receipt. So unfortunately for investigators, that was a dead end. So investigators went back to the timeline to piece together who Sharita had seen. She had left on Friday and gone to the salon, and now she left the salon at about 5:30 PM and when she left, she said she was going to meet up with Greg, who lived only a short distance from where her body was found. Now, in the interview with Greg's family, police were able to confirm that Sharita had in fact arrived at his house. But they would also uncover more evidence that would now make Greg their prime suspect. I just know that she had went over to see him and now she's missing. Greg's mom told investigators that he had been working all day and was sleeping now, getting ready for an overnight job. But when investigators did get an opportunity to question Greg, Greg told investigators that Sharita was constantly calling him throughout the night, and phone records backed up that story. First of all, they told me that my daughter must have called Greg 15 times, so apparently he must have been hanging up with her. Wouldn't answer her phone. Greg told investigators that he had turned the phone off so we can continue the sleep. But as it turns out, he wasn't being truthful. One of those calls connected. Police were able to determine that Greg, in fact was able to answer other calls and it prove that he was not being truthful in that statement. And if he's lying about their conversation, why? She had a recording on her phone. On the recording here, my daughter says stop hitting me. Why are you hitting me? Now I'm really thinking that you're did this. I thought that where did this for her to tell me that? Yeah, my daughter was there and we sent her away. I'm like, well, why don't you let my daughter in the house and call our home? I would have came and got my daughter. It was raining outside. It was cold outside. And you're just going to send this young lady out without even giving her a phone call? In my mind, that's what I thought. So police really wanted to know more. What was Greg hiding? Did he have a reason not to be truthful? And so they went back and looked at other pieces of evidence. When Shari's Clothing was examined in more detail by Criminalists and the police lab, they found a stain on her genes that stain being possibly semen. They analyzed it for DNA and sure enough, they came up with a profile. So what did they do? The first stop would be, hey, Greg, can we get a sample to eliminate you as a suspect? I'm knocking on his door. Sample to see if they had a match. He did give a sample and the evidence proved that he was eliminated as a suspect. It was not his DNA. I didn't have anywhere else to go. I I didn't have anything. I clearly thought that, you know, Greg and his family were involved in this. It was a big question mark. So now investigators know that Greg is not a match for the sample, but they still have an opportunity to enter that sample into CODIS. You know, CODIS is the national database that if someone's sample has been uploaded for one of many reasons, job applications, prior criminal history, that then sometimes you get a match. But when they uploaded that sample it came back nothing. So without a match on CODIS, and without any other evidence pointing to any other suspects. We have a cold case. You don't push it. Your case will become cold. I would contact Martin Wolf. He was the lead investigator. I would call him every Monday about my daughter's case because we were suspect. We wasn't Privy to anything. And it's not weeks, it's not months. We're now leading into years. And during those years, you know, police had looked at Harry and his wife, but now they hear the rumors on the street. Time for us. I mean, people actually bought my wife, killed my daughter because that's how I was out there. That was the rumor they would never nutting in front of your face, but you would hear about stuff that they might have said. Let's talk about that, Scott, because I think it's one of the things that unfortunately people don't think much about during these investigation, which is all the other. Freefall, if you will, of baldness sometimes. And here to the victim's own family. So with any open investigation, it's just that it's open. Everybody remains on their radar until they're not, especially for family members. They're grieving the loss of their daughter here, but people in the neighborhood still want to know. Was this something that happened with the family themselves, or is there a random killer out there, the difficulty of the years passing and the difficulty of remaining? When the police suspects list to your own daughters, murder is just difficult to deal with. Like for us to grieve about my daughter because even today when someone brings that case up. Somebody go Oh yeah, yeah, it was the mother. I guess I really think about it when thinking about the family as the additional burden they have to bear. I mean, my son had to go to school. He would hear this from teachers in my school. You know, my son always noticed people looking at him he didn't know, understand why. People always looking at him and people, it's going to always talk about you if they can. In the back room, they talk bad about you, but when you're together, they they look at you in small there's a lot of backstabbing that goes on in life. And this family, to their credit, they kept up the pressure. They would not back down. I will call the county prosecutor and himself and ask for a meeting with him. And everybody that's involved in this case, because, you know, I need to find out what was going on with my daughter. You know, at the beginning of any homicide investigation, you're starting with a wide net and then you're narrowing down to a potential list of suspects. And when your list gets crossed off one by one, you got to go back to that wide net. And when you have a girl, 16, in high school, you have to then start to reach out to anyone she interacted with on a daily basis. But when you think about teenagers sometimes. They have a life much bigger than what their family knows, and that really makes this suspect pool much, much bigger and more difficult of a case to crack. I mean, that's what takes real gumshoe, as they call it, work to get done. Pounding the pavement, talking to friends, talking to teachers, talking to anybody who may have had a daily contact with sharita to determine is there someone they're missing? Is there a person if it's not a random crime. Who could it be? And for years, on the anniversary of her death, the Williams family would hold a vigil. Every year after my daughter was murdered, we would have a March. And we will March down 36th St and go over the bridge at March back every year. We did that because I thought that the press was going to play a big part. And the reason why I thought that was the more information that I gave them and the more coverage that they gave me, it came on TV. It put it out there, which kept pressure on the prosecutors office to do their job because I was told, I told Marty a few times, that's Martin book. Here's the lead investigator that he mistakes the slippers. That those slippers off his feet and put some shoes back on and go back out there and find out what's going on with my daughter. And as the years are ticking by, investigators aren't just leaving that box on the shelf. I mean, they are making repeated checks of codas because, as we all know, DNA keeps getting added in and going out and trying to reinterview people, and they're coming up with nothing until February 1st, 2007. Three years later, they finally get a hit. And that hit turns out to be someone chirita new. So now it's February 1st, 2007, three years after the brutal murder of Sharita the big break, a CODIS hit of the DNA found on Sheridan's genes. His name was Warren Dixon. Police described him as a low level drug dealer who had just been convicted in Philadelphia on a drug charge. Warren Dixon committing a couple of crimes over in Philadelphia, and DNA was never came up. But now police needed to build a case. Against Dixon, including putting him in the era of the night of the murder. And here are these interesting sideway facts that you never know if it's going to be something in now of a sudden it's more meaningful. You know, Harry describes that he had heard this name before. Friend who is my wife's friend. Warren told this kid that, you know, he got away with the murder of my daughter. That information got back to me. I went to the county prostitutes office and told them about it. It's all coming together, but for police, they know they need to build a much stronger case and they really need to dig in. Who was Warren Dixon and can they connect him to Sharita? So another big red flag for investigators who's after visiting the high school, they learned that just days after the homicide, Dixon, who went to the school with Sharita, had just dropped out and he disappeared. And they go looking for him and they get the US Marshals involved and they find out that his mom actually lives near where Sharita was killed underneath that 36th St Bridge. And we do have a portion of his interview from 2007 where he doesn't deny knowing Sherita, but he does deny his involvement. In the murder. School together. So it's that wrong saying I'm moving, girl. Yeah, that's right. Because it could have been a school night, you know, saying it could have been a week out, my suppose. No, no, I ain't killed, you know I'm saying. So during his interview, Dixon was trying to explain the DNA when he was confronted by saying they were romantically involved. He even stated to police during that interview that he had given her the black bandana. And if you do remember us describing the crime scene, a black bandana was found wrapped around her neck. Yeah, I'm saying if that's what they are samples for, if they do come back one, there's nothing to lie about, man. You feel me? For a lot of back and forth with investigators, there did come a dramatic turn. In this interrogation, Dixon posed a question to investigators. If I killed her by accident, would I still have to go to jail? Computer, that's the exact line I want to hear right there. That is an admission like any other admission, because we all know the way that young woman's body was found. It was no accident. Back up a second to the interview. How difficult is it for a suspect to walk something back like that in the process of making that type of emission? You can't. Once you say something, it lives there forever. Now, while you may try to explain it, and sometimes there is a reasonable explanation when you give context to something someone says, but just think about that line. If I did kill her, but it was an accident, will I go to jail? How on earth? You ever walked that back? And in this case, I don't see how you can, no matter what type of context you try to give. What it sounds like is someone saying, like I've said before, that line I love, admit what you have to deny what you can. They know she's dead. They know someone killed her. From what he believes, they've already linked it right back to him. So how can he try to get under? Well, maybe if I claim accident with this admission, that means the family was never involved in this homicide. They had my wife give me a call, told me, Harry, they had investigators at the house. They need to talk to you. So I flew over here. I came in and they looked at me and they said we got good news. I said, well, what's the news? What? What do you what do you guys have? Here's the warrant for Warren Dixon's arrest. I started crying. It was like a relief cry. I mean, it was up there following that was coming through for sharita. And that is the the shame of it and also the relief, because the shame is bit is that they had to live with this cloud over their heads on top of their grief for all these years. But the relief of it is now they have an answer. Now they have someone hopefully being held accountable for their daughter's murder. I want to take a moment to say something that I believe needs to be said. It is common knowledge that in a homicide investigation, the first to be looked at by police are the ones closest to the victim, usually the family members. And when evidence points you in a different direction, you follow it. And when those people are cleared, I believe it's important for investigators to be upfront about their reasons and willing to answer any lingering questions about it. And while those conversations do happen in some cases. In my mind, they must have it. There's a lot of people were involved but had an interest in my daughter's case. People were still thinking that my wife killed my daughter. I mean, it was it, it was told it was totally crazy. What was the way people were thinking and what was really happening. I mean, Harry felt like his family essentially was targeted, but he also knew that the journey wasn't over and he wanted to keep a positive. Vibe, so to speak, with prosecutors, with investigators, because now we have a suspect, Warren Dixon. He's made an admission, but we still need to get over the finish line because while he's arrested, that's far from any type of a conviction. So then the question is, will there be a trial? And in this case, the answer would be no. They said, OK, Ari, he wants to take a plea bill. Warren Dixon's attorney went to the prosecutors and they discussed the possibility of a plea deal, his attorney said. And they wanted 10 years for her murder and homicide prosecutors. They came back and countered with 20. And it isn't even a murder charge. It's a manslaughter charge. And for Harry and his family, that was a really hard pill to swallow. Well then, that I wanted one to do life sometimes certainly does not fit the crime. And the reason why they told me they didn't want to do a trial was because the judge that was on the case had met some other criminals go, and they didn't want to trust the judge. Now, again, what someone actually pleads guilty to versus what they're charged with versus even the crime that was committed, sometimes it's a question of semantics, of a way of arriving at that number and letting it be. Illegal plea deal. And that's what it certainly sounded like here, but also as part of that plea deal, in exchange for pleading guilty and getting the 20 years he had to answer questions about the murder. Warren got arrested. He had his arraignment, you know, so he came into the courtroom. He wouldn't stand up, he wouldn't talk or anything like that, you know? He's very arrogant. He was just what he was, a thug. He said that he had sex with sharita. That she didn't want to and that they struggled, and that it was during that struggle that he claimed his mind went blank. Well, you know, as Lord he answered. Why did you kill? I don't know. My mind went blank. Basically, because you want to have sex. Yes, she didn't want to have it. And then I went blank and OK, did she consent to have sex with you? No. As a result of that to the struggle itself, yes, you understand she died from that, yes. So as a former homicide prosecutor at Inseego, do you think this was a a just plea deal? You think the terms were fair to all sides? I think it's really hard unless you actually are in it and know every single fact. And no matter how much research we did, we weren't the actual investigator prosecutor. So many factors go into that. The one thing a plea deal gets is that it gets you certainty and while I absolutely understand Harry's perspective and his family. Saying that no amount of time would ever be enough. I want life or nothing. 20 years is not enough for the life of my daughter. I get that 100%. But I also know that sometimes where you're never sure ultimately of what a jury is going to do. And then you never know what an appellate court is going to do in the appeals process with the case. The thing about a plea deal is that there is no more rights to appeal. That is it. It is game over for that amount of time and that gives you certainty and at least knows that you get justice as far as the accountability and you at least get that amount of time. And if we're talking 20 to 25 years, it's certainly sounds at least in the reasonable realm based on what I know. For me, this case talks about a young girl, a 16 year old, who had dreams. She was going to go to college, she was going to become a social worker. She was warm, funny, kind. She will never realize those dreams. The victim of a senseless murder. I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna tell you something I used to do when my daughter first died. I used to smell her clothes. You may think that's weird, but believe me, it's not. I couldn't be with her person, but I could smell her perfume that she's aware and that's something that I used to do. I just go to her, her grave site and sit with her for a minute or two and I leave and wait till the next time I go back. I was just up there the other day. And for Harry? The way that he forever remembers the holidays, it sticks with me every time when I think about the words that he said. Black Friday is a good name for Fat Friday because it was black for us. I mean, we have a Thanksgiving Day meal. Everything so close to what happened on these two days, it's hard to get by them. And when I think about this case. I think about actually what our executive producer summit David said is that there is this saying that sometimes people die twice, first when they actually die and the 2nd is that when people stop saying their name. And hearing that and hearing Harry talk about. In this interview, how happy he is to talk about his daughter to anyone that asks. That reminds me of why it is so important for us to keep telling their stories. Anytime I get a chance to talk about my daughter, I'd love to talk about my daughter because it brings her back to life to me. I'm here because you might have to. 16 She we couldn't say nothing about my daughter, but yet it's 17 years later and here I am talking to you about my daughter. We thought my daughter was going to do something big. And in essence, she did. She opened up a lot of people's eyes about about this criminal activity. And she just wasn't here to enjoy it with us. TuneIn next Wednesday, when we'll dissect another new case on anatomy of murder. Anatomy of Murder is an audio Chuck original, A Weinberger media and forseti media production summit. David is executive producer.