Industry veterans, degenerate gamblers & besties Chamath Palihapitiya, Jason Calacanis, David Sacks & David Friedberg cover all things economic, tech, political, social & poker.
Tue, 14 Sep 2021 10:29
0:00 Open: LIVE from TPB Symposium
1:18 False Ivermectin story fools Rolling Stone, Rachel Maddow & more
15:47 Biden's recently announced vaccine mandates, why US hasn't been able to solve cheap testing
25:36 The threat of regulatory capture
34:18 Benefits of the "wartime mentality" when solving major issues
45:30 CCP looking to break up Alipay, what this means for US/China relations
49:11 Audience Q&A!
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Jake Paul looks like he's going to a night at the Roxbury. Absolutely. He looks like. Show the **** out. Sorry. Your life. I mean, you look horrible. Thank you. Thank you. Truly ******* horrible. OK, I appreciate it. There you go. Let your winners ride. Man David. We open sources to the fans and they've just gone crazy. Queen. Thanks for coming. This is the Production Board symposium 2021. Tell us just a little bit about why we're here, David, and and what this is and what it represents for the production board, the Production Board symposium second ever. Thank you all for being here. We're excited. We have. An amazing group of science scientists, engineers, folks from academia, from business, from the investing community. Some of our investors are. We're excited to share thoughts and ideas over the next couple of days and thought we would chase half of you away by hosting the all in Pod tonight. So here we go. Great. OK, so first up in the news, Rolling Stone amplifies false ivermectin story. You were following this chemo, what do you think? This I've seen controversy and you want a little give a little summary of what the issue is before we talk about the hypocrisy of it? Well, on September 1st, Oklahoma News station K 4 ran a story and published an article on ivermectin overdoses, backing up rural hospitals. The article was titled patients Overdosing on Ivermectin, backing up rural Oklahoma Hospital hospitals and ambulances first. Kind of. The article quote a rural Oklahoma doctor said patients who are taking the home dewormer medication. I've ramekin to fight COVID-19, causing emergency rooms and ambulances to back up. On September 3rd, Rolling Stone amplified the story in its own article. The only problem was they treated. They tweeted it with a picture. That featured people lined up in the cold. It turns out the picture was people waiting for a vaccine shots back in January, not gunshot victims waiting to get into the hospital. Yeah, the story is totally false. You understand that, right? Well, I didn't want to say fake news, but I know beyond it was beyond fake news. This was basically a doctored up conjured article by some person trying to incite a moral mania at Rolling Stone. Look there, you tell me if the the science of this is wrong. There's a whole, the whole premise is ridiculous. So ivermectin basically, as far as we know, because we don't know that much Axon, a handful of specific characteristics, one we know to be glutamate, which we don't really express. In the same way as like ******* worms. And so yes, technically it can be used as a dewormer, but there are four or five other ways in which it acts which we don't know anything about because we haven't taken the time to do a broad based double-blind study. So I think the fairest thing to say about ivermectin is we don't know what it is. And so neither the people that proposed to use it as a solution for for COVID, nor the people that rail against it aren't really starting from the basis of fact. But then what happens is you have these folks who basically are so turned off. By the idea. That, you know, people aren't getting vaccines, they're going to use this other thing, they basically doctor it up an article. That wouldn't be so bad because nobody reads Rolling Stone. Right. It's kind of a it's like, it's kind of it's an ancient brand. Nobody's going there for medical news. Yeah. But then the problem is you get a handful of these folks who think they're really, really smart, who amplify it, Rachel Maddow amplifies it, Jimmy Kimmel does it on a comedy skit, and then all of a sudden there's this enormous outrage. But the problem is you can't put the genie back in the bottle when it turns out to be a completely fabricated lie. And then all the people that are purporting to basically push this lie, who now have been outed, have no consequences because they're on the left screaming at the right. And what happened when it was the other way around, we basically started to put people in boxes. We basically kicked them off these platforms. And again, so you have this compounding, building double standard. That to me is the whole the worst part about it. David, when we look at the ivermectin story, we also saw Joe Rogan got COVID. That was a big ha ha moment for a lot of people, and he took ivermectin as part of his treatment, and then people started amplifying that. He was taking a worm drug for horses, dewormer, and it's at best an antimicrobial, right? It's used for both situations, and a doctor prescribed it to him. He's thinking of suing some folks for for treating this. What is this overall say about the state of communications around this? Pandemic? Yeah. I mean, look, this is really a media story. You had Rolling Stone published this article based on a single source. You have this one crank basically saying that emergency rooms are turning away gunshot victims and people having heart attacks, OK? And all they had to do, all Rolling Stone had to do, was call up any one of these several hospitals. They immediately would have refuted the source, but they didn't do that. They also could have simply googled the number of toxic ivermectin cases to find out if it was even plausible. Statistically, that you could have ivermectin overdoses flooding Oklahoma hospitals. But they didn't do that either. Why didn't they confirm the sources? Because the article was too perfect. It confirmed all of their priors. Their first prior was about ivermectin. They've been waging this war on ivermectin, claiming it's a horse dewormer, when it's actually. That is one of its purposes. But it's not the only one. It was a it was a drug designed for humans, is used against parasites. Now, as Tamas said, we don't know. Whether it's effective against COVID, they got to do the double line studies and we'll find out. But that was sort of their first prior. And let's face it, the second prior was that this is an Oklahoma right? And so Rolling Stone wants to believe you have all these MAGA idiots out in Oklahoma eating horse paste. OK? And that's why they love this story so much. And that's why Rachel Maddow loved the story so much. And she then starts spreading it, OK? And after she gets called out, including by, say, Glenn Greenwald, as of last night, she had not taken it down. Now why? Because she knows there are no consequences for misinformation and lying. Why? Because Twitter and Facebook do not punish people on the left for misinformation. That is some penalty. They only meet her out for people who disagree with their cultural and political biases. And that's the secret cabal that gets the get out of jail free card. I don't. I don't even think it's secret. I just think these people all are part of the same cultural sort of meal you. They all have the same political, cultural biases and there is never. Look where is the Twitter warning? The Twitter label on the Rachel Maddow Post even now saying that this tweet this article is misinformation. It never exists because it's inconvenient. Freeberg, let's talk about the science of I think it would be $40.00 for all in podcast live. It's dynamic. It works. Yeah. By the way, you're on the show, so. Tell me, the last time we heard a news story that didn't have bias to it, what was the last general thing that was reported that we didn't feel had the angle that then elicited emotion, either love or hate or alignment or not? With the facts in the Wall Street Journal just now about like the the Democrats proposal on taxes, I have an emotional reaction to it, but it's fact based. I've got 100. Is it really was it? My reaction or no, the story? Yeah, they just said that they the, the House proposal now is to move the CAP gains rate from 20 to 25, the corporate tax rate from whatever it was to 26 1/2. But it's it. My point is there are articles written by folks who just want to Get the facts across and let you judge whether it's good or bad. Who knows, time will tell. Then there are folks that basically manufacture **** because again, I think and I think as Matt Taibbi that said this because it creates moral mania and they want. Drives the narrative, drives the emotion, but it's the last grasp, the power of journalism. That's all they have left at this point. It's just to basically make it a complete ******* free for all. And in it, they still have some kind of relevancy. I have these old New York Times newspapers like the whole year printed from like 1936 through 1944. It's cool taking this huge book and you know, well, but you must have been out all the time. But you didn't have time to read those. Yeah, I mean, but you flip through these things, they're like they they are. They are just like old, like ticker stories. You know, it had absolutely no, like, narrative attached to it. There was no, like, these are the people, almost the implicit right and wrong right, the implicit morality of every decision that's being made, of everything that's being reported on. I've been feeling the thing that's going to be left in like 10 years is the Economist and then like the mob rule in the metaverse. And that's kind of, you also have podcasts where people can discuss these things and maybe a more honest, transparent few great podcasts like that. Mr Mr Anti, Facebook, what do you think about this Wall Street Journal article says that there's a. Kaball that basically gets a get out of jail free card on Facebook and nobody else does. Millions of people, though. It's that, right? Yeah, that's a lot. You work there. It's exactly the point I've been making right, which is that there's two sets of rules. If you are part of the in crowd, if you share the cultural biases, if you're part of the same class, whether it's, you know, socioeconomic or political or whatever, that of the people who are doing the content moderation, doing the censorship, you get a get out of jail free card. The rules are different for you. You can be Rachel Maddow and Post an article that's complete ********. And even after the entire Twittersphere calls you out, you don't post a correction, but you don't get labeled, you don't get censored. But if you're on a different part of the political spectrum, you do. I mean, there's two sets of rules. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think it's insane. I mean, this is exactly what I think people have been saying for a long time. When people say, oh, you know, it's algorithmic, it's not really human controlled. There's there's no real intervention. And then you find out there's actually literally something called cross check, which. The definition is check the hue, you know, check the algorithm and override it with my own bias. That's the, that's the definition of what the feature is. Well I mean and whenever we start down this censorship route like who gets to decide and then what is their motivation? Even if they have pure motivation, there's no way to you know not to assume the platforms die, assume everything deep platforms and decentralizes and then like all media is through sub stack or through the colon app or through other kind of media decentralized crypto. Exactly. And so there's no longer a platform, there's no longer a sensor model. What's gonna end up happening? People are gonna click on this stuff that they want to hear. Confirmation bias. It's going to become more extreme. It's going to become, you know, even more heated. There's going to be splintering of media creation as there is right now that we see today, right? Every, every element of the spectrum will be kind of produced, and you're going to end up clicking on the stuff that creates the greatest emotional response that people like to consume. How does a citizen who wants to inoculate themselves from fake news bias, how how do you recommend they go after science? And how do they they have to learn this stuff for themselves. They have to try to become an expert themselves. I would it's hard like anything that's hard, right? I mean, there's there's gotta be a will. I don't think that that's really. It's it's not to be discouraging. I just think that it's a lot easier to not do that. Right. So it's a lot easier to consume ice cream all the time. It's a lot more fun to consume ice cream all the time and to kind of plan your diet and eat healthy and workout and all this sort of stuff. And I think that's really where, you know, media, like a lot of things is headed as we create these kind of feedback loops that are all because everything is digital. Everything ends up becoming a feedback. I bet, I bet you. I bet you if you look inside because like now some rabid politician will get ahold of this Facebook crosscheck thing. I bet you. If you look and graph the number of people that were essentially whitelisted from being able to say whatever the hell they want versus what was popular on Facebook, you'd see a left versus right distribution very clearly. You'd basically see because if you look at it now, I think there's a, I can't remember his name, but he's a, he's a former New York Times reporter that tweets out every day the top 10 links that are shared on Facebook and it's like a ******* train wreck. It's like one normal article and then it's like 9 like. Right wing Infowars Ben Shapiro sister trailer wire. It's a train wreck every day. And so if you're, you know, a hipster sitting in East Menlo Park, you know, at some point like the cuffs in your jeans are rolled up too tight, the ******* shirt cuffs are rolled up too tight, you know? And you're just freaking out and then you're like, we need to create something, what do we call it? And we're like cross check, you know? And then all of a sudden what happens is you just start introducing people, hoping that then the list that gets published every day on Twitter changes. But then what happens actually is you find the exact opposite thing happens, that people are so, like, they sniff out the ********. They're like, what is going on here? But then they double down and then next thing you know, Ben Shapiro's nine, you know, eight of the 10 top stories every day on Facebook. And that's how you have Donald Trump and everything else. Next topic well. Go ahead. Well, I mean, I don't want to themselves. Yeah. Look, I think both sides are capable of both sides of the political spectrum are capable of spreading misinformation and ********. And you have to vary your information diet, right? I mean, if all you do is participate in, you know, the right wing or left wing Echo chamber, you're going to buy into the ivermectin hoax, you're going to story here from Rolling Stone or whatever it is. So you have to make an effort to to, again, to vary your information. Ask for the lab leak theory. I mean, exactly. But we now have five of these during the pandemic alone. Right? But see what what I object to is the fact that the censorship rules only seem to apply to one side of the spectrum. Is, look, both sides are capable of spreading misinformation, but only one side is being censored. Why? Because the people running these powerful tech companies agree they're like, you know, 90 plus percent of that political persuasion. That is not healthy. Can we, can we, can we serve in the audience and see if they agree? Raise your hand if you agree with how many people agree with sacks that Trump should be reinstated on all platforms. There you go. How many people agree that the tech platforms have a political bias? How many disagree with that statement? Nobody interesting to tell? Wife is the chief business officer. Facebook thanks for that. There's a biased to the next best thing date requisite for the viewers at home who couldn't see that because, I don't know, do we have the audience on camera? No, no. Go ahead. Percent. Every. No. Everyone. Yeah, everyone except for Phil doing well. And these are silicon best described as Silicon Valley to Marty. So that's why we have to raise his hand. No, but to be clear for people listening, Phil's wife works 100% of it. He's gotta say no, it's OK, it's OK, 99, but everybody else here agreed with that. And these are all people who are. Liberal. You know, so how many of us are Democrats? I mean, we're all mostly Democrats, I would guess. How many people voted Democrat in the last many? How many are not Democrats? How many people voted for Trump? Raise your hand nice and high. No, nobody should nobody. No, literally. There's only. That's very interesting. Here's the question. Here's the question I have. OK, so we are, we are firmly going down because I think it's pretty, it's pretty clear to me I'd be willing to make the bet that. The media is on the side of vaccine mandates, OK? They want the top down control and the sense of theoretical safety that a vaccine mandate gives them in their own little bubble. And so that's why I think they support this. And I think, you know, blowing up ivermectin was kind of. A method of many that they've undertaken to do that, whether we believe in vaccine mandates or not. But now it's coming. It's coming in the LA School district. It's, you know, Biden is trying to push this thing through the BS. This is going to be a very, very big deal. What do you guys think is the right thing to do on vaccine mandates, irrespective of all we're going to hear over the next? Government, government or private employer mandates or both? Well, we should, let's walk through it. I'm using both for the government, government employees to start with that. Yeah. Well, the government mandate, no, it goes through the BLS. It says any company, public or private, that is 100 employees or more. Well, I mean, I think we all agree that people in the military or people in healthcare, they should all be vaccinated or they shouldn't come to work, correct? Do you agree with that? But that's also not, not even enforceable like Sorkin. Andrew Ross Sorkin tweeted out like he had to take his kid to the urgent care and he walked in and the doctors weren't wearing masks or something. Yeah, I read that and said something about, like, not being vaccinated doesn't matter, blah, blah, blah. And he like that goes to enforcement. But moral liberal, the military has said you have to be. I thought, wait, you brought your kid to the ******* urgent care? Don't you first need to know what's wrong with the kid? You can't prosecute this person's opinion on masks and vaccines before you figure out what's wrong with your kid. Well what do you think? Sex, military, military, healthcare, teachers. I think the crux of the issue is whether employers should be able to require that. Well, there there's two issues. One is whether employers should be allowed to require it, which I think everybody agrees. Not everyone, but but most people I think agree that private employers, and you could lump the government with this, should be allowed to test or their employees or require their employees to be vaccinated if they want to and or at least I would support that. Part of it is let private enterprises require vaccination if they want. If they decide, hey, in order to come back to the office you got to be vaccinated so everyone's safety, they can impose those rules. Now the question is, do we know we need to go beyond that to have a federal mandate? And it's not that I'm anti vaccine. I just think that's like an awfully authoritarian thing to do and it raises a bunch of of questions. So for example. I have a friend who owns a chain of dry cleaners. OK, he's got over 100 employees, mostly minimum wage, and a bunch of different locations. About 20% of his. What is his ethnicity? What does it have to do with anything? Just curious. He's Sri Lankan. Anyway, so he's the third most famous Sri Lankan American. He's going anyway so he's got 100 employees, about 20% of them are anti VAX and they will not get vaccinated. OK, so they will walk out if you know if this is required to another but that job, hold on. But he can't run his business if there's a 20% walk out he just can't do it. OK, so now we get to the soft part of the mandate which is well instead of requiring the vacs he can do a weekly test well. We did that outside here. Who's going to pay for those tests? Who's going to administer them? Is it like, you know that a nurse out here with the full, you know, you know, Hazmat? Yeah, the hazmat thing. So, you know, that's not cheap. So how, who's going to pay for that? Who's going to do that? What's the documentation around that going to be? Is that get logged into the computer system? What kind of proof is it? Does it require a trip to the lab or is this thing we can do in 5 minutes? I mean, look, if we had done what Freeberg said a year ago on this pod, we should do, which is have. Is $1.00 five minute tests be available everywhere? Then maybe that sort of rapid test out would make these mandates more palatable. But we don't have that yet. You know, there aren't enough of these. It turns out we still need it even with the vaccines because no vaccine is going to be 100% effective and with right. But my point is this, we don't really have that solution operationalized, you know, having a hard VAX mandate on 100 million employees of private enterprises. You know, that's going to cause I think chaos in the economy. What if we get a variant, David? Or if we get a variant, God forbid, that is more dangerous than delta, let's say it spreads just as fast, but it's five times as deadly. Does that change your thinking about this mandate? And where do you stand on the mandate? No, I I think the mandate in this very specific, narrow instance makes sense. And I think what we should be fighting about is how we actually write it so that it's not wholly expensive. And the reason is because we know that there is a probabilistic. Distribution of outcomes where a nontrivial percentage of them results in a variant that is deadly. And so we can understand the math and we can understand a sense of time to figure out that if we don't do something and if we don't get to some amount of control around what this is ruined, we're all in really big trouble. So because of that specific thing, I just think this is where, you know look. The President has the ability invoked the War Measures Act to do all kinds of things that are super normal and you know we would never say that those abide in normal times and we've created a framework for him to be able to do those things in non normal times and then revert to normal. I think this is one of those cases. Just because I don't think the economic consequences and the social consequences if we let this thing continue to compound and continue to mutate, it doesn't make any ******* sense. We're not learning anything. We could have used the War Mandate act across 2 presidencies to demand some companies make a dollar test. We have 7580 tests approved in Germany. They're down to two or three dollars. Why has the FDA not? Gotten us to that level that Germany's at. And why haven't we done the War Mandate act? I mean, we have like a constructed capitalist model of, like, let the free market tell the government what is the right thing to do. And so then they invite Abbott and they invite the guys in and they're like, you know, the White House, they have a consortium meeting and everyone's kind of a little bit chuckling about this, like, oh, this is awesome. It's another $2 billion payday, which is what they just got. I don't know if you saw the the write up today, but the federal government is paying Walmart. For the difference between the wholesale cost and the retail cost so that consumers cannot now go buy Abbott tests at the wholesale price at the store, $2 billion taxpayer money gone. When we could have had a bunch of smart scientists get together at the White House with a bunch of engineers, take over a friggin factory and on a piece of paper print 8 billion ******* tests and then chop them up and distributed them for $0.50 and instead we have this problem where we're like depending on the Korean supply. I kid you not. Of the test kits that are like plastic, that's where they make all the, like pregnancy test kits and all this stuff and these, UM, this like the commercial model is like, tell us how you want to make these tests. Tell us what the right model is. And of course you end up with a $30 test when in Germany you can go by a 50 Cent test at any liquor store. And so it's constructive, straight up corruption. And if you go back like, you know, I don't know if you know, the production board is named after the trade into the microphone, named after the War Production Board which was set up. In World War Two, what's that? It's pretty humble. Yeah, took the war out, you know, but it was. But the idea was like, how do you take a system level design approach to solving kind of big problems? And one of the issues that we had during World War Two with the supply chain problem on making tanks and planes. And so they put together a bunch of smart people. Deutsch knows this better than anyone because he was alive. He was alive and he was. You can look at the old photos. Sitting in the front, guys, will you have the hands on you before he dies? He may die in the factory floor, old as ****. And and there was basically a coordinated effort. It's nothing today, by the way. Sorry. Look, I'm happy birthday. Happy birthday. But there was a coordinated effort by engineers at the top down to design a system for making these things cheap and fast. And that's an approach that I think we lost, right. Like, we kind of gave way to this model of, yeah, lazy, fair, like, you come in, you tell me what you think we should do. OK, that's a good idea. Let's take photos and we're out. And that's it. Like, we don't have a wartime mentality right now. We haven't had a wartime mentality since COVID hit. Everyone's continued to try and parade around and get reelected and, you know, earn votes, basically nothing. We're not taking this well. We're not acting. We're. You know, like every, every time kind of a business or a government or any organization goes through a phase, it goes through a wartime phase or peacetime phase. We should be acting like we're in a wartime phase and we're not. Can I ask you a question if you might three or four of us basically pony up some money, could you go and print 8 billion of these ******* tests in the US? You cannot get them approved without the FDA. I'm not asking for approval. I'm saying could you do it 100%? And how long you could buy some old freaking paper mill? And in three months, I mean, you know, this, this actually people in this room who could do this in now isn't there. 8 Framework within FDA that basically allows you to effectively experiment on yourself. There's a compassion, there's a it's for drugs, it's for therapeutics, not for diagnostics. So you're saying that if I want, you can't build my own test and use if you want to build it. If you wanna build a diagnostic test that tells someone whether or not they have an illness, you have to get FDA approval in the United States. So that's also just published some pretty statement is regulatory capture like is one of the biggest issues we have. And in related news, by the way, another insane statistic just started to erupt. I saw this today. I forgot someone we know tweeted this. The Who wants to guess? The ratio of administrators to doctors in the US healthcare system? 300 to one? Yeah, I saw 300 to one. Yeah, 900 to 1 today. Oh my God. And that is up from 5 to one in 1970. By the way, think about that. Can I just build on what you said? 900 to one? Your initial tweet said 300 to one, and it ended in 2010, right before Obamacare passed. So from 300 to 900 was all Obamacare. Regulatory capture, sax is shaking his head, which by the way nothing against Obamacare because I think like coming as a Canadian, I actually believe in subsidized healthcare and I think the the principle of Obamacare was great, but there was one fatal flaw, which is a basically said, OK, you know what? You're capped at the following margin and the minute that people said, wait a minute, I can only have a 20% gross margin, what do you do? You just Jack up prices to basically Jack up revenue because if you can only take 20%, you're going to take 20% of a bigger number than a smaller number. And so it completely burned the incentives for any healthcare company. In the United States to do anything other than just basically walk prices up. And it's funny because if you look at the stock prices of these companies you you would have made more money being long United Healthcare than you would have been owning Facebook, Google, any of these other tech companies in the last decade. Crazy stat. Speaking of regulatory capture, Tesla got left out of this new tax credit or proposed tax credit for electric cars. I don't know if you saw that, but Tesla wasn't invited a couple of months ago to. Guidance EV summit. Elon responded like I wonder why I wasn't invited. It turns out it's because they're not a union shop. Their employees make much more money than union employees make. And but now as a punishment, but hold on, as a punishment, the $12,000 credit that they're giving to or the proposing to give to all EV manufacturers is only if you have union employees. It's 4500, less to Tesla. So literally two massive regulatory captures and corruption. Go. Or maybe sacks. No, I mean, I don't have much more to add to that. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, this is to serve the unions. It's not to serve the clean energy. Or the EV industry? I mean a little bit for EV is mostly for the unions. The. On the one hand, what we do is we say that climate change is this existential issue. But then when the rubber meets the road, if you look inside the infrastructure plan today we unveiled basically how we're going to do all the tax credits. And again, it's just an enormous amount of just sloppy regulatory capture. We're doubling and tripling credits in certain places where disallowing credits in other places. When you follow the dollars, what happens is you can map it to companies. Those companies tend to be mostly public. Large balance sheets, large lobbying efforts, and it's not necessarily the most important companies that matter. So if, you know, if I said to you what are the most important companies in climate change, you'd probably say, well, maybe it's direct air capture, maybe it's nuclear, maybe it's some other thing that basically helps you go to a different place. And where does all the tax credits and tax dollars go? Sunrun? Sun power? These are companies that basically, you know, have this oligopolistic whole stranglehold on essentially installing solar panels and battery walls in homes. Across the United States and it's not to say that that job isn't important, but to basically explicitly block other people out. Because all the chatter today on, you know, or some of the chatter today was around just if this bill passes as written, you're going to see these stocks rip. And so obviously the positive reinforcement loop of Wall Street and hedge funds getting behind these companies, their market cap goes up, the amount they allocate to lobbyists go up, and then all this ******** just continues to cycle through the system. Freeberg, how far are we away from small nuclear reactors and fusion just from a science perspective and then on a regulatory basis? I don't know enough. I mean, yeah, I look, I mean, from what I've seen there, there are great technologies that, you know, we should be able to kind of realize my understanding and speaking to investors some in this room. And I know Chamath looked at this area a lot is, you know, there's the the regulatory burden that's made it so difficult to launch nuclear technically. It seems like there's great breakthroughs. There was an announcement from a group this past week, CFS, yeah, on a new superconducting magnet. System that they spent years designing. This is a Bill Gates backed company. Anyone here an investor? No. Nine and basically it enables like the tokamak plasma fusion based systems to be kind of reliably produced now. And so they've, they've had a proof of demonstration of this, of the superconducting magnet system that effectively allows you to control a plasma, which is like 10 million degrees Celsius in a little doughnut that spins around. And that plasma allows you to kind of pull energy out that can be used for, you know, effectively you put a bunch of material in, this thing runs and more energy comes out than you put in. It's magic. And so, you know, this has been a theoretical kind of concept for decades. Getting the superconducting magnet system to control the plasma in a very small space using a very small kind of system was proven. And now they think that they're, you know, call it, four or five years away. You know, by the way, everything in nuclear is always four or five years away, so four or five years away with a grain of salt from kind of having a demonstrable kind of system. So there's technologies that are clearly like on the brink or or proceeding nicely, but as we know. A lot of, a lot of these sorts of technologies similarly are kind of regulatory burdens. We're about 100 degrees away, I think from a, from a operational functional room temperature, semiconductor and superconductor. Sorry, and you know, I've told a team that I'm working with on this project. I don't want to go into energy generation or unless we can do it in a small form manufacturing thing that can be adopted broadly. But if you try to go and you know, basically build some distributed energy resource out over here that powers Cavallo point, it's impossible because you run into these people. You don't really understand. The science won't take the time. And you know, we've taken so many steps backwards from nuclear that it's probably just going to take decades. And it's going to take some cataclysmic climate change event where the only way out is this super abundant energy source where you're willing to basically say, ah, **** it, we're ****** otherwise. By the way, if you were to go to Mars today, you wouldn't be pulling a bunch of ******* you know, oil out of the ground and burning it and, you know, rotating you should. I mean, and you wouldn't necessarily mean be using, you know, solar at the beginning, but you wouldn't necessarily rely on solar the, you know, the cost of material to transport from here to Mars to yield the best. Energy potential would likely be some sort of nuclear power source, right, as it is in a lot of military. So thank you. Question tax. Elon was saved by Obama. I mean just kind of like having we were there even meaning like, you know, it was in that moment he was able to get that deal with Daimler, he was able to get these, you know, tax credits, the the auto bailout, you know, all of that stuff. But then it seems like we're in the middle of a democratic administration and they may go out of their way to basically try to **** this guy. I just think it's like become a special interest free for all. There was an article today that the national deficit year to date is 2.7 trillion and I think that we're on October 1st. School year, so there's one more month, so it'll be about 3 trillion. Last year was over 3 trillion because of COVID there haven't gotten to the infrastructure bill yet. That's gonna be another 1.2 trillion. On top of that, the Democrats are saying they want another 3 1/2. Well, not all Democrats, but thank God for Joe Manchin. But another 3 1/2 trillion. And you know, most people can't even really say what's in that 3 1/2 trillion dollar bill. I mean, it's we're at 28 trillion, something like that of national debt. I mean, and it's all just like special interest plunder. I mean, if you look at the. Results, the results aren't that correct. Yeah. And then on top of that. Well, you know, I, I understand. I mean with respect to Obamacare, OK, that's a major item on what's called the Democrat wish list was to give everyone healthcare and we didn't even get there. OK, but you can sort of understand that. But most people I think even on the left can't really say what the big ticket item is that's going to be delivered for this 3 1/2 trillion that is proposing to be spent. So I mean it's just it, it's just become this like, you know, special interest free for free. Talk about not having a wartime stance with the pandemic. We don't have a wartime stance with global warming or extreme weather. Whichever term you want, should we? Yeah. Yeah. I mean we're, we're burning money out of like a drunken sailor. What's going on right now and actually a lot of what we're going to talk about this symposium over the next day or so is that there is effectively now a raging free market appetite for these solutions. The capital is pouring in, the entrepreneurship is blossoming, ballooning, the technology is advancing. So, you know, to some degree folks might say, you know, this is going to get solved, but there are major infrastructure solutions that are needed. For us to accelerate the outcome and win the war and those infrastructure solutions aren't going to get funded by SoftBank and they're not going to get funded by CHAMATH. They're gonna need to get funded by the type of dollars. I mean keep keep you keep building your book like you are you you will fund them in the next decade. But Zacks you know kind of speaks to the kind of numbers that I think you know are necessary here. I mean you think about how much money we spent on COVID without any results over the last year. It really begs the question if we were kind of to take an ROI based approach to where we spending these dollars. This would probably be the first on the list. And by the way, the private market and jobs will benefit. And what happened in this, this, this bill, this infrastructure bill was passed this past year that's now been, you know, more kind of definitively drafted. It's a bunch of infrastructure jobs that are basically giveaways. They're not actually solving problems with climate change. They're not pushing technology forward. They're not creating these alternatives that we're talking about. They create 10X and 100X outcomes. They are yesteryear solutions and they're not going to move the needle. And so I, you know, look, I I do think like. It's unfortunate, but the climate change war production board is needed to kind of get the kind of dollars motivated that are needed to create the kind of infrastructure to solve these problems despite the free market appetite. And the free market appetite, by the way, fuels the outcomes. But it still needs it needs something behind chamath is it possible, just as we're having this discussion here, we're looking at an incompetent, corrupt government that is filled with grifters who are bought and sold and then on the other side and causing massive problems? That's a that's a mouthful. I wouldn't say that I disagree that people are corrupt and grifters. I I do think that there's, yeah, I I do think that there's a lot of good motivations. I just think that the government. Yeah, there. Look there may be corruption, but I don't think that that's the the universal truth, right. People are generally you. You know you. We've all met politics, right? We've all met people. Which one isn't? It's it's it's a it's a point of perspective, right. And and there is what's your perspective? My perspective is that they're all being told by their constituents what they want and then they're doing it or by lobbyists or by lobbyists. So listen to a lot. At the end of the day the way that the the system is set up is people get reelected by doing what they're the people that are gonna vote and put the dollars and put the the votes out for them are asking them to do. And that's the way that this has kind of resolved itself. So and by the way, when the when when wars happen, you know when I guess when a war happened in the 20th century that wasn't the driving force. The driving force was existential and it was we have to win the war and that's the that that really needs to be the mindset. You'll need to adopt today, which is an existential mindset. We need to win the war, and it can't be about what my constituents are telling me, what the lobbyists are telling me. So despite this, either incompetence, graft, or if you're more charitable, you know it's a complex problem to solve. Despite all of that, we have massive entrepreneurship in the country. We have massive capital allocation at a extreme violent rate. In fact, a lot of that money is coming from all this money being pumped into the system. So in a way, do you think the only solution we have chamath. These entrepreneurs in startups who are getting large amounts of money to solve these problems, it's not going to happen by government. Obviously, we have a ton of great entrepreneurs and I think that we're doing things. We're doing OK, so this is. This is. If you look at the Internet, in the 20 years that we've been grinding in the Internet, we've had an incredible tailwind that helped us, which is all these people, much like the folks in this room, but in different companies 10 or 20 years earlier than you are now. Abstracting parts of the stack so that the rest of us could use it, right? And so, you know, I remember in 2006 we were racking and stacking servers at Facebook and Santa Clara. Me, Adam D'Angelo, like we're and I was like, what the **** are we doing? And I remember in 2008 what Adam D'Angelo, he was our CTO at the time left. He started a company called Quora D'angelo's like I'm building on a WS. And I thought he was a ******* idiot. I thought, who builds on a WS? You build your own data centers. Now, if you said that to somebody, you would be the idiot, right? So if it's that or if it's the tooling and the tool chains that we've been able to build on top of all of that, abstraction and simplification has allowed an order or frankly probably even maybe two orders of magnitude of entrepreneurship to come. That's also now happening in biotech. So all of that is an incredible progress. The problem now is we used to be a part of the economy. That was an afterthought. We were over here. Politicians didn't need to understand. They didn't need to take the time. Their first reaction is denial because it basically pushes up against power and that really freaks them out. But now we're at a point where we are so integral they need to understand it better. Here's a perfect example. Last week, Illuminous patents expired. So if you're in the business of healthcare and if you're in the business of like you know CRISPR gene therapy, any of the stuff that actually a lot of you guys are involved in, you would love for the fact that you know next Gen sequencing could have 1000 flowers bloom, bloom, 90 different methods. The cost of a sequence goes down to a penny. It's not possible today because you have to go through one methodology. You have one company to work through. You have one set of reagents or a set of reagents that one company sells, and it's basically cordoned off. That can't change because of technology because they can then sue. You go to courts and they win. And so this is where you have to interface with the government, and they just need to get smarter because otherwise there's only so much innovation we can do before their historical legacy. Things like patents and IP come and bite you in the ***. Sex. What do you think is entrepreneurship alone and capital allocation by aggressive, you know, thoughtful and bold capital allocators enough to solve the incompetence in Washington or the graft? Well, it's going to have to be. And, I mean, here's the good news. Venues. OK. I had a tweet that kind of went viral. So when Afghanistan happened, you know, we spent $2 trillion. Twenty, 500 American casualties, 40,000 wounded. And what have we gotten out of it? The Chinese are about to take up residence in Bagram in our splendid Air Force Base, and the Taliban are one of the best equipped armies in the world. That's basically what our $2 trillion got US and China is going to build a super highway, right? By the way, they're gonna extract all those the thing where like the Taliban. We're flying around in our helicopter. It was. It was. It was helicopter. No, it was fake. Apparently, it was fake. Fake news. Fake don't spread the news. They do have more. I have more outrage than there. Apparently, the helicopters that were left behind are nonfunctional. So let's just clear that up. That's true. Yeah. They more Blackhawks than any other army in the world. Except for us. I mean, have you seen all the photos of them? They're all decked out in our uniforms. Incredible. Yeah. Oh yeah. They got our night vision goggles and the photos on the Internet. Is reporting itemizing the inventory the cache of weapons we left behind. It was gigantic. Alright let's get to the question now the good news bad news that that's that's the bad news. That's what $2 trillion of government spending got us. The the good news is I went back and I looked at how much money has been invested in the venture capital space over that same 20 year. That we were in Afghanistan and it roughly tallied up to about $2 trillion. I didn't know that actually. I just I added up the charts and about and most of it was in the last five years. This has actually been a huge acceleration and the amount of money coming into VC over the last several years, the soft banks, the Tigers and so that you've had late stage funds, the mega late stage funds. So the truth is for really way less than I'd say a trillion dollars of you know early state like true venture money. We've been able to create the entire technology ecosystem as we see it today. I mean not entire I guess go back 20 years, there's five years in the late 90s. So the the the private enterprise. System has accomplished so much with relatively so little money. You compare the efficiency of it. You almost wonder, how did we squander so much money in Afghanistan was impossible. It took active looting by many different forces to basically squander. I mean, think about like literally have to burn money. Every venture backed company, every stage in the last 20 years. Afghanistan, I mean, how much of that money went to line the pockets of private contractors and you know, warlords? We were paying off. I mean it was a giant kleptocracy. OK, so, but the good news is look what we got for that same amount of money here, you know, and not just here every, every private venture backed company. So I do think we are capable of accomplishing great things, but with relatively small amounts of investment. And thank goodness for that, because that's the only thing that's producing anything our society. But. But, I mean it's true, right, but but but look at what Washington's about to do. They want to stomp on all this innovation. I mean they want to Jack up the cap gains rate to the same to higher than ordinary income. I mean that is the return on investment for the for the for venture capital, for the kind of investment I'm talking about. I mean they want to make it punitive. Now that's not going to pass thankfully because we got Joe Manchin, but that's about it. By the way, I will, I will contradict myself and agree with Sax. I do think there will be 100 X 1000 X 10,000 X. Breakthrough that will resolve a lot of the challenges we face as a species on planet Earth over the century. So we're optimistic. I'm 100% optimistic, actually. This might. That's my, the, the, the title. You gave it away, the title of my talk in the morning. Tomorrow morning. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, I do, I do. And by the way, my talk says absolutely nothing about the government. And we've been railing against the government. Everyone's kind of feeling sad, and we sound like a bunch of old guys sitting at the Starbucks talking, talking about the government. Now they suck. But at the end of the day? I do think that the ingenuity of the human spirit and science will resolve the problems that we face today. Jesus Christ. And we are not going to, we're not gonna end up on the government to solve the problem, right? I want to talk about one other way. We should kind of be mindful of the questions from the audience. If you have a question, I'm going to jump out there. And we do that now because we're just end with the CCP is now moving to break up. Allie pays business. This is after Jack Ma. Went on a holiday to learn how to oil paint. Thoughts chamath? Well, I think this is sort of like one other step in what we've been talking about for a while, which is that China is basically becoming a completely vertically integrated government where the public and private sector has no real clear delineation. And I think that that actually has a lot of implications to us because they export an enormous amount of technology and building blocks to us, and we have no recourse if those guys either change their mind. And this is sort of what pulls us into this next very complicated. Days of geopolitics, because, for example, if they decide to cut us off, you know, in our it they will invade a Taiwan. I've said this before, but I think that they will. And we will have no choice except to deploy troops into Taiwan because in the absence of the silicon that we need from TSMC and a couple of other manufacturers there, we have 0 capability here. This is why you see Intel, I mean for any like any second, when you guys hear an Intel press release that says they're investing 90 ******* billion dollars, do you not think where does Intel come up with $90 billion? Right. This is a pull through from U.S. government because it allows us to start to rebuild an enormous amount of critical infrastructure that we've left to other people. So, you know, China is systematically decomposing and basically destabilizing all the China Internet companies. They're going to control an inbound all of the critical resources and we're going to have to have these really hard conversations. Unless this is again why I go back to I don't believe what you said. Entrepreneurs are not enough of the solution. We need the government to step in. With intelligence, not with anything other than that. They don't need laws necessarily, they just need to understand the problem and then you get out of the way in some cases or step in and for example like you know, allow the regulatory, regulatory capture to be disrupted, but they won't do it because special interests and by the way, special interest, what are they spend, you know, if you try to donate to a ******* congressman, 4000 dollars, $2500 like these people aren't spending. $80 million to defend an $80 billion business, they're spending $80,000. And that's why we can't have progress. That's crazy to me. Sacha thoughts on China's recent actions to basically deprecate entrepreneurship. It's a, it's a continuation of the trends we've talked about on this show. Like Timothy was saying, I mean, they're bringing these entrepreneurs, these that they're moguls, they're they're oligarchs under their thumb, under the thumb of the CCP and she Jinping, they're consolidating control and power and money. And it's also about the data that was another part of the this new laws. They want to get their hands on the data. That that all control all the credit data of every single person that uses Alipay all throughout Southeast Asia. That's ******* crazy. And they also control everybody's tick tock. You're talking to America? Yeah, we've got there at the same time. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. You were running. If you were running the Chinese government, wouldn't you do the same? I would do everything that they're doing, which is why it's crazy to us that we are sitting here allowing it to be done to us. That's what the crazy, the crazy there's no there's nothing about what they're doing is not illogical, right? What we are doing is illogical. Because we should have a reaction to these things, we should have a point of view. It can't be tacitly sticking our head in the sand. Alright, who's got a question for one of the best? OK, let's try and make it a tight question. Talk up the book on of course these bills are incredibly wasteful, but you're you guys are engaged, so how come you're not looking through them and saying this piece I like this piece is messed up because it doesn't sound like you've read them either. To be to be honest with you, I haven't read them. I rely on these summaries that I get from my team. And to be honest with you, the legibility of these things are incredibly low. And the problem is every bill that gets written now it it's almost like it goes through a process. If you take a two page bullet point Bill, which is really what senators or Congress, Congress people understand and approve and then outcomes the other end 2000 pages that are undigestible. So you're absolutely right. I don't. I rely. On these summaries, I have zero idea what's really in there. Let's take another question. Yeah, I'm Alex filippenko. You did this poll of whether the media are right wing leaning or left-leaning, and the overwhelming majority said left-leaning. But do you think that that's in part because for four years we had been fed so many lies and so much misinformation from the extreme right. David, that question was directed to you. I mean look, I think there were plenty of polls. If you go back like ten, 20-30 years, there's a media organization, there's a guy named Brent Bozell who was doing studies of media bias. And if you were to actually look at how people in the media voted, it was 90 plus percent Democrat. I mean it's it's been, it's been a thing for a long time and now it came to a head, I would say during the Trump administration because. The press, I think in going after Trump gave up something important, which is they gave up their objectivity. I mean, they flatly would. I mean, it was, you know, whether you want to call it Trump Derangement syndrome or whatever. I mean, they now saw it as their duty not to report objectively both sides, but they would just flatly declare things that Trump were saying were false. You know, you still see this today. I'm not saying that. All the things he said were true. Maybe he did say false things, but normally if you wanted to say that one person saying something false, you would get a source. On the other side and then you would quote them and then that's how you would basically construct the article and you had the press basically almost really become unhinged and I think they, they kind of ripped the empire jersey off their backs to in order to chase after Trump. And I think, you know, ultimately they got him. Trump was a one term president, but I think that it's really contributed to the polarized media environment we have now anyway to get that referee Jersey back on the press you think? No. Sacks. Well, how? I mean the, you know, the the problem is the journalism and media have changed so much. The nature of press has changed. Yeah, right. It's fragmenting and splintering much like everything else. There is. You know, we talked about this at some of our companies. I keep referring to our company because a lot of people are here today. But you know, we talk about the fragmentation of food brands, for example, or the fragmentation of people's kind of individual media selection. The same is happening in the press where you know, you're now kind of going to pick and choose the five articles you want to read as opposed to buying one of three newspapers and reading everything in that newspaper each day. And I think that's fueling this, which is not necessarily, in my opinion, I've said this before, not necessarily a constructed. The design decision of the quote UN quote press. But it's more a phenomenon that arises from the individuals that consume the media and they make selections. And that selection bias ends up driving the clicks and the votes and the counts and the prints of that particular form of media. And guess what? We end up choosing the stuff that triggers us more and makes us feel some stronger emotion. And then it creates a feedback loop. And that's where this is coming from. And I think it's enabled by the Internet. Not necessarily bad actors at platform companies, but it's it's inevitable in a decentralized. Build or platformed world, that's where we're also part of the story is advertising went away as an option as Google and Facebook took over those markets. So they went subscription and how do you get subscribers? You pick a side. You can't really go down the middle. I want to feel something emotional when I click and buy and spend $0.99 or whatever. Like it's not, I just, I don't want to like be bored to death. Everything is so stimulating in this digital world. Like I want to be stimulated. So there is a really interesting poll that came out today that speaks to this, which is they. They asked, you know, people on the left or the right, what do you think the country's biggest problem is? On the left, the number one answer was Trump supporters. You know, so, you know, now on on the right, it was a little bit more varied. It was the Taliban, it was China. You know, it was, what should we be most concerned about objectively from each of you? What do you think the top three things we should be concerned about as Americans? Right answer for either side is like the other half of America, I think. I think that happens because you haven't varied your information diet. You're sitting there watching 1 station on cable news and you're being fed, you're being basically being fed this stuff that the others demonizing the other side, right. And you know the other side is, you know is being otherized. All right. Let's take two more questions, Nico. Chamal, this goes back to a point that you made about entrepreneurs not being enough and bringing the government. I think a lot of the topics covered are bringing a lot of government support or involvement. So from y'all's perspective, how do we bring in maybe new incentives on the government side to bring in younger people, smarter people, people who are going to make better change than what we may be seeing today? I mean if you look at comp country countries like Singapore, their solution was. To elevate the role of government to be so high from a societal value perspective, it was an incredibly respected role, it was well compensated, and it was a thing that was a real jumping off point to other positions of true influence. Here we started with that idea. So like, you know, when you think about what's what played out in the 1940s, fifties and 60s, I think we had a lot of that. But then the problem was we had a handful of things that completely perverted the cycle. The cherry on the cake, I think, was Citizens United. That basically just tore the Band-Aid off. And we are where we are where it's not clear today that the most intellectually curious people are in government, nor does it even get its fair share. OK, So what do you do about it? I think that there's an element of it, which is you have to play the game on the field, which is folks like us. What I would encourage all of you to do is if you are in a position to actually accumulate political power, you have a responsibility to do so and it is directly correlated with money. And so as you find compound companies and you get liquidity, you have a responsibility to be engaged because you will have a louder voice. I'm not saying that it's right. I'm not saying that it's fair, but it's the game on the field. The more you spend, the more time you get with all these folks and you should use that. Beyond that, we have to find a way of orienting them. So once you get a seat at the table, I think it's about showing them that there's these nuanced laws that are a lot less sexy than they want to talk about. But that actually have real impact sacks. What do you think of senators getting paid like CEOs? Would that help solve the problem? If people could look at and say, well I get paid a half, $1,000,000 in that job or $1,000,000 in that job, would we draw a different caliber of person? I wouldn't be opposed to that. I wouldn't be opposed to people in government that the top people making more money. I don't know that though that that really would be the thing that attracts a higher. I mean I think most of those people go into it for, for power. And, you know, the problem isn't that they're not smart. I mean, some of them, I guess, aren't very smart, but you also have the lack of, you know, they, since they can't make money when they're in, they have to figure out how to make it on the way out, you know, before. So probably alleviate some of them. Pay increase is not something I would be opposed to. I mean, it's something that's hard for them to do because it's easy to campaign against politicians who want to pay themselves more. But yeah, I'd rather pay them more salary so they're less beholden to the special interests. When they get out of office, but I don't think that by itself is gonna solve the problem. Let's take another question. So my question is how do we get both sides to agree, right. We want to get back to the truth and in science and economics we have a way to measure the truth in science design, scientific experiment and you measure it against reality so you both sides can agree what's reality in economics? The auto make money, don't make money, right? You can measure it against something. So what can we do to get back to both sides agreeing on what is true? I mean I think the challenge is it takes more than 15 seconds to walk someone through the experimental design and the outcome and the. And the action to be taken as a result, same with any. I mean, I don't know what the viewership is of the Economist, but I'm pretty sure it's been going down 0, right? But This is why markets work better. Thank you for my subscription than politics. Right. This is why markets work better than politics. Because freeberg, in order for you to pursue what you want to pursue, you don't have to convince a majority of the country to support it, using it to find one person who's willing to fund it. You know, you raise the money so and and the same is true for every startup and that's why progress is made by startups and not a lot of progress is made by. This is actually why, by the way, that's why I don't think any of us spend time in politics even though we talk about it all the time. No, but because it influences our decision making. I think politics has done more to rekindle my interest in all things technology and specifically Web, 3.0 and DFI than anything else because these last four years have completely convinced me that we need to find a. Very decentralized way of building the future. It's going to be ugly, though. I am. I, I am. I mean, I am convinced that the next 80 years is exactly that. Like, you know, in the physical world, there's a bunch of stuff that's going to happen in the social world. It's going to be related to this D5 decentralization movement that's underway. And it's underway because of what we're hearing about happening in China, what we're talking about happening in the US and, you know, I mean, I don't know. I won't give the context. I was hanging out with some people the other day. They they were they were working on my house and they were telling me every single one of them were trading cryptos, every single one of them were trading crypto. And the whole conversation really expensive on the whole. The whole country really expensive. The whole conversation was about crypto and I don't trust the US dollar and everything inflating away and I I think. Politically, we're not really awake to the fact that this is a broad, meaningful social movement. It's playing out with crypto bubbles and NFT's and other nonsense. But those are short lived bubbles. Those are little feedback loops. Frothing is happening as the tide rises and I do think that that is going to be kind of the big pushing for socially, David, is why China said no more crypto. What are your thoughts? That's the big battle. And by the way, everyone's gonna end up saying that. Let me come back to crypto. Just one point on on movement. So there's political movements and then there's kind of. Uh, economic movements like private initiative. I wrote a blog post called Your Startup as a movement, in which I compared being, I said a good startup founders and evangelist for their cause. It is almost like leading a political movement. You have to go out there, kind of have a stump speech and evangelize people to your cause, which, you know, it is ideally a larger mission than just whatever, you know, benefits your company. Right. This is why Elon has been able to, you know, frankly, why he's been able to sell so many cars without spending a dime. Marketing is because he creates a much larger movement than just what's good for Tesla, right? But the the difference I think between sort of a a private movement and a political movement is this is that when you're successful as the leader of a company, everyone imitates you. So now because Elon successful, everyone else is trying to introduce their own electric cars. Whereas in politics whenever you start a political organization, you know an equal and opposite organizational spring up to oppose you. This is very hard to get anything done and maybe that's the way it should be because we don't want people imposing their political will on us. But This is why I I am a big fan of startups and smart young people pursuing startups and not politics. What do you think about decentralized crypto? You know, finance and America. Should we, should we allow it? Should we tax it? We should clearly allow it because the this whole crypto stack, this whole decentralized finance stack. That's being built could very well be the future of finance, and we certainly want to be ahead of that curve. Maybe there's some bubbles in here and in that, but I think what's really, there's certainly a lot of really smart engineers, coders, entrepreneurs are going to that area. And so I think it'd be a mistake just to discount it. I think we want America to be on the forefront of that technology wave just like every other technology wave. I'll make a prediction. My prediction is in the next 20 years, the D5 movement will catalyze. A movement against the open Internet and it is because state actors will compete with private actors for this battle between centralized institutional state based control systems. Like I want to have a know your customer if you want to buy crypto in the US versus all of these offshore places where I can go & up, get a bunch of money and trade forever and never pay the IRS assent and live my life in the ether and the open Internet will start to get threatened. We've seen this in the past where proxy servers and DNS servers got, you know, requests from the DOJ. And takedown notices. And if that starts to happen where all the servers and all the fiber lines that are running in and out of the US and elsewhere start to get kind of tackled like China has a closed Internet, you could start to see this become a really ugly battle that that starts to play out. And I think we're not too far. I mean, I don't if you guys agree, but I think the open Internet is kind of going to be the the great battleground to resolve this in the original battle was over information and now it's over money. And there's a really interesting point there, which is, you know, I remember the late 90s, early 2000s. Where the big technology investing wave was all about connecting people and goods into seamless global networks. And that's where all the investment went today. And and and behind that was sort of this utopian idea that the Internet was going to break down barriers and tribalism and remove geographic borders and create a single connected world. Well, what what exactly is the bet on crypto today? It's a bet that Fiat currencies are going to collapse and deteriorate the undermined by money. Warning the US dollar will stop being the world's reserve currency. Most likely that individuals need to be protected against the rise of the authoritarian state. These are the big themes of crypto, and if you think of major technology investing waves as essentially a prediction market on what smart people think the future is going to look like, it's pretty scary that we're going from a utopian technology investing wave to a very dystopian technology investor destroys capitalism. You know, if you think about what capitalism is, it's not just the return on investment, but it's the tonnage of dollars, right? So anyone who's a big investor here, I'll pick out Yan because he's done an incredible job. You know, you're putting more and more dollars in for more and more dollars out. That's the pressure, Brad. You know, these guys are under enormous pressure to get tonnage of dollars through the system in a productive way. And so, you know, these guys are at the forefront. But when you look at you know most of the projects on Solana, they're seated with a few $1,000,000 and these are sixty $80 billion market cap projects. And so I don't know how capitalism survives in that world. #1 #2 governance goes completely out the window because you're essentially replacing a set of norms that we've all agreed to about what a company is. It's an LLC or it's a C Corp that is incorporated with laws, there is recourse. You you can go to these places and sue them now. It's a Dow. It's a bunch of rules written in a blockchain. Here's how it all works, here's how I make my HR decisions, here's this, here's that, here's the other thing. And then you basically decompose everything into a service where it's recursive. You cannot build with me unless you make yourself buildable to others. OK. So when you Add all these three things together, I think to me it's the most incredibly, positively disruptive force I have seen. I think it will destroy wealth. I frankly couldn't give a **** and I think it's better for the world. Let's take a final question. Thanks, Jason. And maybe to connect some of the dots. You know, I think the the the power of the individual, perhaps reflected in crypto has never been greater relative to the power of government, right? Thomas Friedman talked about super empowered individuals 20 years ago. Whether you're a terrorist or whether you're a capitalist, the power of the individual is is, is never been greater. The four of you started a movement earlier this year around what was going on in California. Right. A lot of people got excited about the recall about what might come next. I think where we fail as entrepreneurs, where we fail as allocators is we had no strategic plan for California. We have no strategic alternative plan for America. The parties have platforms. Why don't we put together a strategic plan for this data, strategic plan for the country that brings in these folks? The production Board is a strategic plan for winning World War Two, right. And so to Tomas Point that it's incumbent upon us to get involved. I think it's incumbent upon us to step up what it means to be involved. It's not higher a lobbyist in DC. It's not, you know, just show up and vote. But I actually think that the voice that you have carries a lot of responsibility and I think that I would have liked to have seen the all in step up and do something to catalyze a strategic plan for California, right, not necessarily endorse a candidate, but let a candidate stand on top of that strategic plan if we really think about decentralized, right. I'll let you all be really honest with you. Why didn't you run for governor? Run for governor? Yeah. Shut up. We don't. We don't have as four people our act together. We are still learning. Because we are like anybody else in a startup, you stumbled into some success. There's about a million people that listen, watch, consume this a week and all the polling or all of the data that you pull. It's like New York, San Francisco, DC. We don't internalize that and use it for any strategic intent. There's still, if I could just to be honest with you, there's still infighting, ******** complaining, you know, all kinds of ******* nonsense where if you saw the inside of it, you'd be like, hey ******** wake the **** ** get a plan together, and act. We don't have that, Brad, and we disagree on a lot. That's OK. But what we but we we can't get, we can't get away from ourselves. We are learning how to do that, and we've had a bunch of instances where we've had to come together and say. Hey, our friendship is the most important, so let's ******* sort this out. And we've always been able to sort it out. We're going to get pushed to what every other, you know, startup founder story gets pushed to. Which is now what? Are we just going to sit here, Babble on for another ******* 3-4 years through a pandemic and you know, maybe you get to 2,000,000 views. 3,000,000 views? Maybe Spotify gives you a deal and you can make 10 to 20 million bucks a year. Who the **** cares? So you're right, we have a responsibility to figure out if we are for reasonable voices. In the sea and people are attracted to those voices. What do we use it for? And we've talked about it, but we haven't put pen to paper and finalize. And by the way, we spent about 90 minutes a week on this podcast and then, yeah, we each go on to our own lives and you know, it's never been kind of think we've also tried to experiment a little bit. David and I collaborated on getting chesa, Boudin recalled. But in different ways. David David Sacks literally helped them start. They recalled Chessa Budden campaign. Gary Tan, who listens to the pod, started his own with Democrats. And then I tweeted, anybody want to donate for an investigative journalist to cover chesswood's office because we couldn't find anybody covering it. $60,000 showed up for that go fund me page and we just gave it to a journalist who started this week and she's reported in the 1st 10 days on three different, like tragic cases in San Francisco that have not been followed up on by the DA's office. So that was just a little. You know, example of dipping our toes and obviously chamath, you know, being pushed to run for governor caught fire. Like, we thought that was a joke. It was literally somebody who listens to the pod, put the website up, he tweeted as joke, and then all of a sudden it's on CNBC. But the best thing has been the feedback we've gotten from people like you, Brad, and everybody in the audience. Bill Gurley, a lot of other people here. And we have thought about, hey, what do we use this platform for in terms of making change like that. I think that that'll be year two. It's the right question and the right challenge, Brad, it is. Appreciate it. I appreciate that. All right, David, we should let everybody get to pizza, and I want to say thanks to the besties, to jakal. Tamara Sachs. Love you, free bird. Appreciate. Love you, guys. Go ahead, Zach. Say, I love you, too. Freeberg said. Bye, guys. You ************. Yeah, and just thanks for listening to the show. Thanks to Friedberg. If you want to make things truly uncomfortable, David loves to give a long embrace. A nice hug. Tell him you're his favorite. This ************. He there's another friend who shall not be named. Who is a side hugger? Nobody likes us. Who likes a side hugger? Anybody side hugging? You wanna get the full frontal hug? When you full frontal hug with sacks, give it to him. But I had to force him today because he comes into you like stand up. I'll show you. He comes in like this and then he does this, the hip hug like he does. He does. Kind of the hip that's called. That's nice to see you. Looks like he's going to a night at the Roxbury. He looks like he looks like the Joker. I'm a joke. Sorry, life. I mean, you look horrible. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely ******* horrible. OK, appreciate it. Here we go. All right, well this has been the all in podcast and enjoy your time at the conference. Let your winners ride. Hey, man, David. We open sources to the fans and they've just gone crazy. Queen.