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Episode 5: Siri

Episode 5: Siri

Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:00

In the last episode of 2015, Ben and David discuss Apple's acquisition of Siri. Notable topics include:

  • The founding of Siri by Dag Kittlau, Adam Cheyer, and Chris Brigham.
  • Scott Forstall on the Apple side, and the end of his time at the company.
  • The other Apple acquisitions around Siri, including Topsy, Novauris Technologies, OttoCat.
  • Cue, Spotsetter, VocalIQ, and Perceptio.
  • The team Apple built around Siri post-acquisition, including Alex Acero from Microsoft Research.
  • Speculation on the future of voice and its role in everyday computing.

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Our presenting sponsor for this episode is not a sponsor but another podcast that we love and want to recommend called the founders podcast. We have seen dozens of tweets that say something like my favorite podcast is acquired and founder so we knew there's a natural fit. We know the host of founders well David Senra. Hi David. Hey, Ben. Hey, David. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. I like how they group us together and then they say it's like the best curriculum for founders and executives. It really is we use your show for research a lot. I listened to your episode of the story of Akio Marita before we did our Sony episodes this incredible primer. You know, he's actually a good example of why people listen to founders until acquired because all of history's greatest entrepreneurs and investors they had deep historical knowledge about the work that came before them. So like the founder of Sony, who did he influence? Steve Jobs talked about him over and over again if you do the research to him. But I think this is one of the reasons why people love both of our shows and there's such good compliments is on acquired. We focus on company histories. You tell the histories of the individual people. You're the people version of acquired and where the company version of founders listeners. The other fun thing to note is David will hit a topic from a bunch of different angles. So I just listened to an episode on Edwin Land from a biography that David did David. It was the third fourth time you've done Polaroid. I've read five biographies of Edwin Land and I think I've made eight episodes of them because in my opinion, the greatest such a printer to ever do it, my favorite entrepreneur personally is Steve Jobs. And if you go back and listen to like a 20 year old Steve Jobs, he's talking about Edwin Land's my hero. So the reason I did that is because I want to find out like I have my heroes who were their heroes and the beauty of this is the people may die, but the ideas never do. And so Edwin Land had passed away way before the apex of Apple, but Steve was still able to use those ideas. And now he's gone and we can use his ideas. And so I think what requires doing what a founder trying to do as well is find the best ideas in history and push them down to generations. Make sure they're not lost history. I love that. Well listeners, go check out the founders podcast after this episode. You can search for it in any podcast player. Lots of companies that David covers that we have yet to dive into here on acquired. So for more indulgence on companies and founders, go check it out. Hey Siri, were you a good acquisition by Apple? Interesting question. Welcome to episode five of acquired. This episode is about Siri and Apple's acquisition. Are we starting? Yeah. We're starting. So welcome back to all of our listeners. As usual, you can give us any feedback or anything at acquired FM on Twitter. It's been a fun last few episodes. I think this is our last one before the new year. Yeah, happy holidays everybody. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In the meantime though, we've got a special one for you here. We're doing. Hey Siri. We are. We are. We are. David, do you want to start us off with the acquisition history and facts? As always. So Siri, a super interesting history, a spin out from SRI International, which itself is a fascinating organization. Many people are probably familiar with based in Menlo Park. It itself was actually started in 1946 by the trustees of Stanford and was originally called the Stanford Research Institute. And the purpose of it was to commercialize it, to research and then spin out and potentially spin out and commercialize basic technology and has been funded by the government. Stanford itself and many other sources over the years done a lot of great work. And in the sort of mid 2000s, started working on this project called Kalo, which was funded by DARPA and that SRI was a major participant of. And the goal of that was to develop an artificial intelligence based personal assistant for the government and the military. And SRI thought that the potential was there to spin this out and commercialize it and put it on smartphones. So in 2008, they spun out what would become Siri. And there's a really cool story about how they decided to name it actually on Kora. Adam Cheyere, one of the co-founders and the VP of Engineering at Siri, talks about how they came up with the name. And obviously it echoes SRI that the company spun out of. But DAG Kittless, who was the CEO of Siri, had apparently once considered it as the name for his daughter when his daughter was born. And just think of that every time you say hey Siri. Every time you say hey Siri. And in Norse, DAG is Norwegian American. In Norse it means beautiful woman who leads you to victory. And then apparently in Swahili, it means secret, which this is my favorite part, as Adam writes on Kora, a tip of the hat to their pre-named days of the project when they began as, which still exists if you go to, there is this really old-school-looking website saying stealth, get in early, we are forming Silicon Valley's next great company. We aim to fundamentally redesign the face of consumer internet. And then in news and events, they have office location finalized on February 1st. In January 18th, money raised from top VCs in parentheses, lots. That's the key to success, that's my understanding. That's the biggies. Hey, you got office, you got funding, you're going to revolutionize consumer internet. All right, so fast forward. So it's spun out, it's its own independent company. It becomes a consumer offering. There's an app you can download in the store where if you look at some screenshots of it, I was just googling around earlier today, I remember having it on my phone, but I don't remember how bad that UI used to be. Oh, so bad. But it was early days, so it's hard to know at this point looking back if that was sort of table stakes or if they were actually just way, way, way, way form before function. Sorry, function before form. I mean, this was back in the days of iOS 3, I believe, and the iPhone 3G and the iPhone 3GS, super old school. And what was interesting, I remember using Siri 2 before Apple acquired it. And my favorite feature actually was the ability to type into it. You didn't have to use your voice. And I'm so bummed that Apple ditched that over the years. Yeah, and well, yeah, I mean, it manifests in so many other parts of the US. But the main thing that they basically did was they took out a massive license with nuance and used nuance for all the speech recognition. Nuan's itself being an SRI spin out from the past. I did not know that. But still an independent company that that over the years has licensed their speech recognition technology to kind of all the major players. And they kind of combined that with partnering with a bunch of the independent functions that that Siri was going to serve. So looking up restaurants, and things, making reservations, whether kind of all the APIs that you have to express. Yeah. They kind of went from there. So it became an app where it was theoretically easier to use your voice to look up all those specific functions. And quite honestly, probably a lot of if-then-state men's, a lot of regular expressions, like kind of just parsing whatever you were saying. Feeling like induct tape, I'm seeing. What's interesting though is like, I remember this being super cool as an app getting a lot of press, downloading it, using it occasionally. But it was actually way harder to do anything on it versus just opening up the OpenTable app yourself. Yeah. And then thinking about that too, I mean, that was before there was proper dictation on the iPhone. So I remember walking around and opening the nuance app, the Dragon dictation app, to talk into my phone and then copying and pasting out of that into other things where I wanted to use it. So at the time, now we're looking back at like, well, I don't really use Siri that much. I use dictation a lot more than I use Siri. And that all kind of has been bundled together in Apple as sort of one big thing. Yep. So the company spins out. They raise two rounds of venture capital from Morgan Thaler and Menlo Ventures, 24 million in total. The company, the apps in the App Store for just about a year, maybe less, I believe. And then in April 2010, and it was only on iOS, they'd announced that they were working on Android versions and Blackberry versions at the time. Remember Blackberry been? It's been a long time. So far away. And then in April of 2010, Apple announces that they're acquiring the company for, they've never disclosed the price, but rumors are around $200 million. And then fast forward another year and a half after that to the launch of the iPhone 4S in October 2011. And Siri relaunches as a baked-in feature exclusive to the iPhone 4S. And as one of the most intense betas of all time, I mean, I think for a year or maybe it was a full release or two full releases, Siri was technically beta. And you know, any ridiculous things that happened to the Siri, ah, it's the Gmail thing. Perpetual beta. And interestingly, in a very Apple-like move, when the iPhone 4S came out, they removed the Siri app from the App Store. So if you wanted to use Siri, you had to have an Apple app on 4S. And you know what, there's a variety of reasons they did that I'm sure. One of which I bet people get confused. I mean, I bet you hear Siri comes out, you see it advertised. And where do you go to check out the thing that you're seeing everybody talk about on the new Apple phone? You're going to the App Store. And that could be enormously confusing. Not to mention, I think it helps sell a lot of iPhones that Christmas. Yeah, yeah, I want to get into that. So that's the history. So Apple acquired Siri for $200 million. Yes. Yes. Um, heard a variety of figures, but I think we'll kind of lock on that on what we look at the acquisition price this episode. Um, and that was sort of a pet project of Scott Forestall. And if you guys remember, um, you know, he, he was sort of the second Steve Jobs of the company. And people talk about Johnny and the design, um, design aesthetic and, um, kind of that, that focus on making beautiful things. Um, but Scott was kind of the product person that was like second only to Steve. And, and I remember, um, I think I'm remembering right, but in the time when jobs as health was declining, a lot of people were talking about Forestall as potentially being the next CEO of Apple. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And I mean, I think a lot of people now know Scott is the guy that kind of took on Apple Maps. Um, just, just like, just like Siri was going to be his baby that, that Apple Maps was kind of his, his, his, uh, not sure. And the guy infamous for skew amorphic design and iOS. I think that's, uh, that's a, uh, after the fact assignment and, and really easy way to say that was his little fiefdom, but history is written by the victors Ben. It's true. Scott's actually, I think he produced the, the Tony award-winning Broadway musical this year. Is that talk about quite different departure? No, maybe his last year. Uh, this is worth looking up actually because it is, is totally crazy when I heard about it. Let's see. So Scott Forestall was a producer of fun home, uh, Broadway musical that follows the story of a lesbian cartoonist looking back on her childhood with a secretly gay father. And so interesting to see after he leaves Apple total media silence, not doing anything else. Then we find out this is what he's been up to. And that they're really funny part. I remember, I think it was totally coincidence, but it was during the W. W. C. D. C. keynote that he tweeted that he was, I think it was like his first tweet or his first tweet in a very long time. Um, so excited to have produced the, the Tony award-winning musical this year. Thanks to all the amazing people that worked on it. Something like that. And I remember thinking this is unbelievable right in the middle of the keynote. Wow. Uh, anyway. Uh, so that the acquisition was kind of done by, by Scott Forestall. And that kicked off a, a long chain of things happening in Apple acquisitions. Um, Siri, you know, as it, as it sort of turns out, looking back, there's a lot of really intense research that has gone on since then in architecting these kind of voice and, and, um, you know, uh, I guess for lack of a better word, AI systems. And, you know, we see, um, a lot of them, I, I'm not sure if Siri is or not, but I know that the Googles is in Cortana is, um, architected as a neural network. And Siri, at the time of acquisition, the company that was Siri was definitely not that. And I think it's important to start, uh, kind of at this point going forward, thinking about Siri as two things no longer as the product that Apple acquired, but as both an organization at Apple that is responsible for dictation, for voice search for a variety of those things. And the product that is, is, is shipped on iOS devices that we now today know as Siri. And that product is, is, is a ton of things all in one. I mean, I think that, um, the impetus for Apple to actually create this, this group and to focus on shipping this product, um, in every version of iOS going forward, that would not have happened without this acquisition. But the theoretical success that Siri has today as a product is attributed to so much more than that. Apple got extremely serious about hiring great people. Um, they, um, um, they hired a, a senior director, he's not the senior director of Siri, Alex Isero, who is ex-microsoft research. They made a ton of app, of acquisitions, um, including but not limited to topsy, uh, no various technologies, AutoCat, Q spots that are vocal IQ pretty recently. Pretty recently. And perceptio. And these things, particularly topsy are really kind of the academic rigor around the, the search and the, um, the methodologies that Siri uses today. And I mean, I think topsy, topsy was another, uh, $200 million acquisition. That one is. Yes. Yeah. I think actually that one might be my portfolio. Yeah. But, but topsy is effectively the, the backbone of how the search works within Siri and how the, the, um, kind of deeply technical part of it works. And I think a lot of really good people came, came with topsy, whereas you look at the actual Siri acquisition, um, all three of those founders are gone. They've started, I think, Viv, I think is how it's pronounced, but, uh, effectively newer, better, next generation Siri company. Yeah. And, you know, they, they had a lot of people at trip from, from that acquisition. Yeah. Topsy, a lot of those people stayed with the company and from, from talking to some friends that are kind of in the know, really, really top people. And, uh, you know, I, Dave and I were talking earlier thought about kind of doing this, this is a dual episode on, on topsy and this, in the Siri company, because that's, that's sort of how important topsy is to, um, the product that Siri is today. Yeah. I think a couple really interesting notes of it. As Ben mentioned, fascinating that this acquisition has led to the creation of this whole organization within Apple that, um, you know, AI, search, uh, and those types of that type of platform technology was so not in Apple's DNA prior to the Siri acquisition. Yeah. I truly believe that we wouldn't have this product shipped if not for, wow, we just unloaded a bunch of cash acquiring this thing. We got to be serious about it. Yep. And what's doubly interesting about that is that the actual people at Siri that Apple acquired, like they're gone. It was acquiring this company and bringing this product in this feature into iOS that was the first foundation of a platform that Apple started building and, uh, and all the great people that they've acquired and hired since then. And you can argue, I think probably very justified, justifiably so that Google is still ahead of Apple in a lot of these areas, AI, search, voice search, um, speech recognition. Um, but certainly Apple is not nearly as far behind as they would have been had, they continued along the path they were before this acquisition. No. And I think that, uh, in kind of thinking about any acquisition, you can use the framework of builder by what's, you know, if if you're thinking about it before you make the acquisition, you're a leader at that company and you've decided that, um, you know, this is something we needed to pursue. And it's going to cost us $200 million to buy or we could build. And I don't think that that is the case here. I don't think that Apple could even have built like, would they've been able to hire the really top people that they would have needed to in machine learning AI, speech recognition to make this happen. Yeah. I don't, it's interesting. I mean, it would have been a tall order and still was. I mean, I think that even after they did the Siri acquisition, they had a long, long road ahead of them to turn it into the product that is today. And the question is sort of begs to me is, you know, it would have a different name and it would, uh, it would have started off in a different place. But what if they didn't acquire Siri at all and they just made all these other acquisitions and these other key hires because they've hired a lot of the really great people away from nuance. Yeah. They've actually architected the whole kind of speech recognition pipeline that they were licensing from nuance internally. They've, they've rewritten and thrown away all the code that they've acquired from Siri. So there's no Siri people. There's no Siri technology. There's merely a Siri brand and basically what that original product did there. But a lot of the success of what Siri, the product in iOS is today is not attributed to what they actually acquired. Yeah. And it's interesting a little bit of an aside, but on nuance, um, most of the major mobile companies, mobile platform companies, Microsoft, Google, Apple, I believe most or all of them have moved away from nuance at this point. Yeah. I think that's true. Got to be some really upset account reps at nuance. Yeah. So I love the discussion we've been having. In a way, you know, we're sitting here at the end of 2015 talking about this. It's been almost six years since this acquisition happened. We haven't really talked about Siri, the product slash feature yet. And I think, you know, I would argue as with a lot of people, it really hasn't lived up to its promise so far. I don't know about you, Ben, but I use Siri for one thing, setting alarms. It's a, it's a, a God, I would love to see the histogram of this at Apple because I think I just don't think Siri has gotten that far. Well, they have two problems. One, I don't think they've gotten that far from actually being able to, you know, do things that are like, quote unquote learning, right? Like I know I have these very specific functions, much like the original Siri where I go, Hey Siri, look up the best breakfast restaurant around me or something like that. And the sort of second problem around that is if they have fixed that or they, they do in the future kind of roll out something that's much more technically sophisticated that's truly like a deep systems approach to search and understanding and, you know, all these deeply technical things, how am I supposed to know about it? Because I think that like there are some of us that, you know, we'll watch the WBC DC keynote and that's super cool. But it's a really sort of dangerous thing with these voice-based interfaces that don't have a layout of all the possible functions in front of your face that you can use. If it falls on its face a couple times for you, you basically assume it can't do things in the future and you never try again. Yeah. And you definitely fall into that on Kenny Valley and then you just reject it. And that's why I said, it's super interesting. We're sitting here at the end of 2015 talking about this because I think it's non-controversial to say Siri as a product has been a failure. All these like even just basic, basic stuff like, you know, my wife's name is Jenny, J-E-N-N-I-E. That's her given name. Every time I talk to Siri about my wife, it says J-E-N-N-Y. And she has a different last name than me. She didn't change her name. Siri doesn't like figure that out. It's so annoying. Super basic stuff. But we're sitting here right now, you know, Amazon came out with the Echo and Alexa this year. They're investing heavily in that. Definitely, Amazon believes that voice and voice interfaces are going to be a huge part of technology going forward as does Google, as does Apple. In a lot of ways, I think this, the full story on this acquisition hasn't been written yet, because there's going to be so much more to come. Yeah, and then there needs to be. I mean, the interesting thing, you know, we say this show is about technology acquisitions that actually went well. And if you look at kind of the app, we can do this, this episode of this show, because Apple needed to do this. I mean, it's effectively table stakes to have a personal assistant baked into your mobile operating system. It would be embarrassing. As you're saying that, as you're saying that, I had my left hand twisted back and I accidentally activated Siri on my Apple watch. Oh, do you have Hay Siri on? No, it was holding the digital crown. That's your fault. But it's so fundamentally like this needs to be a part, especially as you move into watches and televisions and connected speakers and being able to say, Hey Siri, to your phone, a critical part of any platform. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. In trying to think of examples of things that Siri can't do, the thought exercise of it is actually difficult because your mind is trapped in the things that you can do. Like I'm pulling up my phone thinking of like, you know, Hey Siri, am I going to have time to go for a run tomorrow before work based on when my first meeting is and the fact that I want to walk to work, not knowing what the weather will be right now. Hi, Ben. That's a mispronounciation of La Chai because it's Hanukkah. Right. There's a long way to go. Long way to go. All right, so let's move into the next segment of the show where we categorize this acquisition. I'm not looking at it right now. But I think we've got we've got people, technology, product, business line, and other. For me, you know, our audience is craving disagreement here, but I just don't think, well, Ben, what's your category? So I think if you like didn't do your research, it's technology, and you think you're acquiring this super academic, I guess it is partly technology, and we've just come a long way since Siri was started. But I mean, what it ultimately became for Apple is a product because the shares, how they don't have the people and they don't have the technology that it was originally built on. And the world is moved in a direction. Apple is to their credit really kept up with this and put some serious muscle behind this and hired some of the top people in the field to build out the direction of the technology that's actually moving. And so I'm calling it a product acquisition. Boom. I'm disagreeing. All right. Maybe I didn't do my research. I think it's a technology acquisition. I mean, as we were just saying, like Siri is a product sucks. Yeah, I didn't say they acquired a good one. Fair point. Fair point. Yeah, I mean, I think, like we've already talked about all of this, but I think for me, it's a technology acquisition because I don't view Siri as a product, like A, it sucks. But I don't think it is even really, especially going forward, will be a product or a feature. I think it's just going to be so fundamentally baked into the platform, voice and voice interface and the predictive assistant parts of it that I think that is just going to be a fundamental technology piece is a fundamental technology piece and will be more so over time. And yes, that's not exactly what they acquired. But that was the kernel of it that they've built over time. Yeah. I mean, I have no doubt that voice will be more central to the way that human beings compute in the future and interact with machines. I don't think screens are going to go away. I think we'll become much less reliant on them and much more conversational with machines. But the question is, is Apple doing this and building what they're doing today actually moving in the right direction so they're going to be the ones to create that future? Or is it going to be someone that fundamentally kind of takes a new approach to what is a computer? How do you interact with it? Can you do it all over voice? And not be hammered with a legacy of let's try and tie this future of computing into the way that people interact with this screen? Yeah, that's a great point. I guess that's me cheating and preemptively launching into technology trends. The next part of our show is what trends does this illustrate for you in technology right now? That's absolutely one. I mean, every time I have someone talk to me about a thing that they're working on that's more about a natural interface or screenless computing or thinking about the movie. I've had probably three conversations in the last few months with different entrepreneurs working on this. People at Microsoft at Apple. There's so many AI companies right now. Doing everything from just like we are an AI research company platform that is building to be acquired by Facebook or Google or Apple. I think I love that theme and is so true in technology. You can't bring old world thinking into the future. It's like the Henry Ford analogy of a faster horse. Yeah. And you know, we'll eat these words if in 10 years, Apple is the leader in this category and everyone's interacting with their voice device. But I don't know. It's hard for me to see Siri today evolving into what I think is clearly the future of computing. Yeah. But I also don't think screens are going away. I think visual interaction with computers is not going to stop and is only going to continue to rise with computing. But you don't always want to do that. Sometimes you want a voice-based interaction like in the kitchen, which is the primary use case for the echo. It reminds me of a similar trend. So thinking about the fact that you've got this massive spike in tablet sales since they came out. For so many people, you know, the tablet is not as successful as the phone. But for so many people, the tablet is the computer that they actually need it. And ever since personal computers came out, people have been buying them, people have been using them for a variety of purposes. But it was really the device that we could build at the time that was over applied to a variety of use cases that were outside of the specific thing that they were actually good at. And perfect story. At my grandma's house, over Thanksgiving, helping her move some stuff around. She needs to unplug her computer because someone's going to be doing, they're going to be putting new carpet in in that room and they're moving it to the other room. And I'm like, oh, well, I'll plug it back in and we'll set it up in this other room for now. She goes, you don't need to. I haven't been on it in a month. I was like, what? Because she, I mean, she really does a lot on her computer. It's not like she's on her iPad or well, well, she's very proficient with her computer. She's been fully reliant on her iPad and her iPhone. And I didn't realize this. I may now have been emailing with there. And I actually don't think she does her spreadsheets on the iPad. But I think, but she could. She could. She totally could. And it's just me kind of explaining the new new input mechanism to her. But for so many people, the point I'm getting at is that the computer was doing a lot of jobs. And it had a very specific job. And then when the tablet came out, it revealed that the tablet is actually a better thing to do a lot of those jobs around consumption around lightweight email, things like that. Then the computer was. So then people are actually using tablets, a better thing for that purpose for its intended purpose. I think screens right now are oversaturated the same way that PCs were oversaturated. We've got screens doing a lot of jobs. screens don't need to be doing and sure screens will be doing things where there's a heavy display of information. Yeah, great, great point. Heavy display of information, things where you need to reference multiple things in parallel and not just have a single track. Things where you have modal interfaces where you need to understand context with new context on top. But there sure is a lot that does not need to be on a screen that we use screens for. Yep. Another theme that I'd throw in that I think this illustrates is that consumer generally and specifically building great consumer products is really hard. I feel like Siri is a classic example that a lot of companies and products have a trap they fall into, which is I've got this awesome technology. We can do these amazing things. Look at these really cool shiny demos. And then you get it out in the real world with like edge cases and delivering actual value on a consistent basis, solving people's real problems, doing that without friction. And it's really, really hard to live up to those promises in the demo. And when you think about most consumer products, many are most consumer products that end up being really successful, they're really simple. And it's very clear what their value is. Like Airbnb, you know, which I've been on an Airbnb kick lately. My wife and I, my wife and I just signed up to be host in the last six months. And it pays half our mortgage. And that's amazing. And that's like as a host, that's what Airbnb does for me. And we get to meet these really cool people who are coming through. And we're traveling for the holidays to a whole bunch of places to see family. And we're staying in, I believe three different Arab, B&Bs this month. So what you're getting at is you, you very much understand the intended purpose of that product. Absolutely. It's so simple. It's so elegant. And it perfectly solves my problem. Siri, I don't even know what it's supposed to do. It looks cool. I watched the keynotes. And I'm like, that's awesome. And then I never use it. Yeah, I mean, to take it to another, I'm sitting there trying to, so I have the new Apple TV. And I looking for some videos on YouTube, laying there on the couch that are night. And it's, uh, it is the worst to type into just like one row of characters swiping around trying to tap individual care. It's like being on PS2 again. And I was using the key. Anyway, so I'm like, oh, wait, Siri, this is supposed to be like a really conversational UI. I'll use Siri. And I'm like, hey, Siri, look for the Aziz Ansari standup on YouTube. Or at first, I said the Aziz Ansari standup. And it brought up like movies with Aziz Ansari. And they were like, you know, theatrical releases. And I was like, oh, I should probably specify. And I'm like, look up the Aziz Ansari standup on YouTube. Exact same search results. And I was like, oh, my God, it's not even plugged into YouTube. And like every time I have this brilliant idea where I'm like, I should use Siri for that. It doesn't really work. Yeah. And I think we're weirdos. Like we're tech people. I am the kind of person that walks down the street and it's raining. So I'm not typing on my phone. And what do I do? I like, hold down Siri. And I'm like, Siri, text back blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, because you're not worried about the social stigma of like talking to nobody walking down the street. Total weirdo. And I'm fine with that. But I fully recognize it. Like other people aren't doing that. And I had to imagine if you could see the numbers at Apple of the people that are actually like using Siri on an hourly or daily basis, it's it's probably very disappointing. I'm curious as you're listening to this, if you disagree with us, you should totally let us know that you use Siri and what you use it for. I got it. I'd like to know. I would love to know. At Gilbert at DJ Rosenty at acquired FM, find us. Yeah. The other thing I want to add on that before we move on. You know, this is also, you know, building consumer companies, consumer products is super hard. This is one of the reason why as VCs, we really focus when we're looking at consumer companies on cohort and retention data. Because just like straight up acquisition data, user acquisition data isn't enough. Like the question is, are people coming back, you know, month after month after month, day after day after day? Are they continuing to see value from your products? And it's really hard. Yeah. I wonder. So in February 2015, one of the founders of Siri was was remarking in an interview to TechCrunch that more than 200 million people use it monthly and more than 100 million people use it every day. So it's one in five people with access to Siri actually are a daily active user. It's a little shocking. Like I wonder how wide the purview of that is. And I also wonder, I mean, every single person out there is going to laugh, but like you're sitting in a meeting, you hold the button, it goes into Siri mode, you're super embarrassed. I can't tell you how many times today, accidentally open Siri. I mean, I'm just glad they turned off the little doo-doo so that I don't look like a total idiot in meetings. That must have been the number one use case for Siri. Was that accidental embarrassing meeting, doo-doo? Yep. All right. So we wrap this one up in. Yeah. So I think it's time to give it a grade. You know, I think that if they didn't do this, Apple might not have moved in this direction and might have tried to follow after Google and Microsoft did it. I don't think it's really in their DNA to start this without going on an acquisition spree to start acquiring a lot of talent and hiring people from other companies. These days, it sort of table stakes to have it, but Apple definitely does not sell a single, like one single more iPhone because it has Siri versus it doesn't. I bet they sold a lot more iPhone 4s because it had Siri. Sure. Once. Yeah. Once. I don't think anything they're doing to Siri now sells a single additional iPhone. I agree. Or like when they, you know, add Siri to another market, I think that there's an interesting thing like maybe we'll see in China, maybe we'll see it pick up a little bit since in China, it's so much more difficult to type and it's so much easier to enter characters. Yeah. It's got got to be much nicer over there. And if actually you have any experience as a Chinese person or someone who has used the iPhone in China would love to get your feedback on that too. But you know, I think to this point, it's hard to point to ROI other than it was something they sort of needed to do long term. And I don't know that actually acquiring the company Siri was the best way to do it. I'm going to give this one a C. Yep. So I think this acquisition was just like so classically Apple or at least Apple of the last few years spend south of $500 million to acquire a technology company that you then use to build into part of your platform and your whole product platform. I'm thinking about you know, Authentic and the fingerprint great acquisition great acquisition. We should do that in the future episode. The company I'm blanking on the name that they bought that was the semiconductor company. Yeah, P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. I thought it was that paid dividends. I mean, are they the highest yield? I think that the highest yield producing arm chip manufacturer in the world now. And not to mention like now Apple designs their own chips. Yeah. And the fact that they can do their own system on a chip and the fact that they tie it directly into their operating system, they're able to do things like touch ID where they have that secure enclave that sits separately in the processor and talking. We'll do P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. P.A. S.M.I. P.A. So much good stuff. Yeah. But and when you stack rank those like unfortunately Siri falls pretty far down the list. So I think I'd give it a I'm going to give it a B because I think it is I'm giving it a B because future importance of voice and AI is going to be huge for Apple. And if they hadn't done this if they hadn't started when they did, there's just like Google and Facebook and maybe even Microsoft would be so far beyond them at this point they could never catch up. No matter how much they would spend. Sounds like who they would buy. Yeah. Although I just saw a stat the other day that like maps is getting better and getting more usage. Well yeah, it's getting more usage. It ships with the OS. Well, right. I haven't tried it in a while. I didn't have a bad experience. I keep hearing it's getting better though. But we still don't use it. So same with Siri. All right. Be for me. Be for you. See for me. I think that's uh that's how we got. That's all we got. Happy holidays everybody. We will see you in 2016. Siri, do you need to say to the listeners? I'm sorry Ben. I'm afraid I can't answer that. Who got the truth? Who is it? Who is it? Who got the truth now?